Jogging in Georgia while black.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Thermal

For the same reasons we analyze RFK's murder, or John Lennon's, or President Kennedy's, or Eric Garner's (another one for your lie collection, btw, that cop MURDERED Garner): discussing the variables that could have produced a better outcome.

Oh good lets talk about all the mistakes Lennon did that got him killed. Being famous for one was ultimately a mistake if he lived a quiet life he might still be alive. That is why people shouldn't be musicians with out understanding the risks.

[Dave Rogers]

One other thing strikes me that may be rather an aggrieving factor: Wouldn't it be reasonable to expect an ex-cop to know the law with respect to citizens arrest? This one seems irresponsibly ignorant of it.

Dave

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Mike!

How about a third option? I would have liked him to run the heck away from them, maybe through a yard (Trespassing? Who freaking cares, your life is in danger!) or towards a home where he could have beat on a door while screaming, "Help, there's two crazy crackers with guns after me! Help! Someone call the police!" I'd rather be reading a humorous story about a couple dumb rednecks driving their truck into a neighbors swimming pool, while chasing an innocent jogger, than the one we're discussing now, any day of the week.

Then of course the guy in the house legally kills hims for banging on the door, and then no one did anything wrong.

But at least his trespassing would then of course justify these people having their fun with the citizens arrest.

[William Parcher]

Originally Posted by Carlotta

It seems to me that, if he had cut and run, they'd have shot him for trespassing as soon as he set foot on someone's yard/property.

That's exactly right. Additionally, if he just simply stops and doesn't move a muscle they will shoot him for loitering.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by whoanellie

What makes you think the buddy posted it?

Per your own link upthread. People who do the recordings on their devices tend to be the only ones who can post them. I mean, unless his...what, phone got stolen?

Or are you suggesting police leaked it, or what?

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

One other thing strikes me that may be rather an aggrieving factor: Wouldn't it be reasonable to expect an ex-cop to know the law with respect to citizens arrest? This one seems irresponsibly ignorant of it.

Dave

The opposite, IME. Cops think they are untouchable. Probably more so in good ol' boys Georgia.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by whoanellie

What makes you think the buddy posted it?

The lawyer for the victim's family posted it.

I don't know how he obtained it. (i.e, was it part of a discovery process, or directly from the person who made the video.)

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Per your own link upthread. People who do the recordings on their devices tend to be the only ones who can post them. I mean, unless his...what, phone got stolen?

Or are you suggesting police leaked it, or what?

There's some interesting speculation going around about that.

The video was posted online anonymously.

It's hard to imagine the filmer posting it himself, as it implicates him in a potential murder, and less evidence makes it easier for their version of the story.

I read some rumors that some of the men were pretty much bragging about the incident, and perhaps this video was spread as part of that bragging.

I couldn't find any real source for that, but you have to wonder how this got out.

I suppose it's possible the police had a copy of the video and some cop leaked it to undermine the cover-up.

[JoeMorgue]

"Radio station" is a weird 3rd party conduit for this video to make it from basically anywhere to "the public" though. It's just not your usual "We have sources" kind of place.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

There's some interesting speculation going around about that.

The video was posted online anonymously.

I read that it was released by the lawyer, although perhaps he simply obtained it after it was anonymously posted online.

[whoanellie]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

The lawyer for the victim's family posted it.



I don't know how he obtained it. (i.e, was it part of a discovery process, or directly from the person who made the video.)

This is what I thought I had heard

[whoanellie]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Per your own link upthread. People who do the recordings on their devices tend to be the only ones who can post them. I mean, unless his...what, phone got stolen?



Or are you suggesting police leaked it, or what?

The story I posted named the individual who filmed the video not who made it public.

[JoeMorgue]

CNN is reported the first source of the video was a "local radio personality."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/07/us/ah...ice/index.html

[Chris_Halkides]

"Wanda Cooper, the victim's mother, said Wednesday that when she first learned of her son's death, a Glynn County detective had told her that Arbery had been involved in a burglary and was confronted by a homeowner who shot him.

"Cooper said it wasn't until days later that she learned that Arbery had been gunned down in the middle of the road while jogging." NBC

Amazing, and not in a good way.

[pgwenthold]

Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides

"Wanda Cooper, the victim's mother, said Wednesday that when she first learned of her son's death, a Glynn County detective had told her that Arbery had been involved in a burglary and was confronted by a homeowner who shot him.

"Cooper said it wasn't until days later that she learned that Arbery had been gunned down in the middle of the road while jogging." NBC

Amazing, and not in a good way.

That person needs to be charged with obstruction of justice.

[JoeMorgue]

I'm still not over that:

- We saw a black guy running through the neighborhood
- So we assumed him to be the burglar who had recently been operating in the neighborhood.
- So we armed ourselves
- Then we got in our truck to run him down.
- He had the nerve to fight back
- So we killed him.
- All of this took place in broad daylight and was even filmed

Are the facts that aren't in dispute and still it's like "Well not let's not be too hasty in arresting them, lets convene a Grand Jury at some point in the future maybe when we get around to it..."

Hey here's a radical idea. Someone citizen arrest them.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

CNN is reported the first source of the video was a "local radio personality."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/07/us/ah...ice/index.html

Also interesting in that article is that police said they had no reports of a string of robberies recently in that neighborhood, and that one of the supposed robberies included the killer's own 9mm pistol, claimed to be stolen from his unlocked car.

[Chris_Halkides]

Originally Posted by Carlotta

It seems to me that, if he had cut and run, they'd have shot him for trespassing as soon as he set foot on someone's yard/property.

I had the same thought.

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Thermal

I would expect a bunch of adults who value critical thinking could elevate themselves above Twitter discussion and look at multiple angles dispassionately.

Unfortunately, racist trolls don't tend to value critical thinking all that much.

The only issue here is why two gun-brandishing dudes who murdered a jogger in cold blood, have been allowed to go uncharged for two and a half months?

[pgwenthold]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Also interesting in that article is that police said they had no reports of a string of robberies recently in that neighborhood, and that one of the supposed robberies included the killer's own 9mm pistol, claimed to be stolen from his unlocked car.

Right, so there are multiple made up stories in an attempt to justify this. You know, the one that holds up best is the one about them being racist rednecks....

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Unfortunately, racist trolls don't tend to value critical thinking all that much.

The only issue here is why two gun-brandishing dudes who murdered a jogger in cold blood, have been allowed to go uncharged for two and a half months?

A-friggin-men. Although the sidebars are still interesting in their own way.

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by Carlotta

It seems to me that, if he had cut and run, they'd have shot him for trespassing as soon as he set foot on someone's yard/property.

I think if two armed rednecks want a black teenager man there isn't a whole lot the black man can do to change that fact. If he had ran they would have shot him for "trying to flee" if he stands his ground they shoot him for "being a threat" if he had run to a nearby house they would have shot him to "protect the people in the house."

He wasn't killed for a reason, he was killed for an excuse. And the difference between excuses and reasons is you can use any excuse to get the results you want.

[Jim_MDP]

Originally Posted by Thermal

I talk with guys that have all kinds of theories about what do do with a gun in sight. I think generally, if it is one guy and the weapon is within hand range, you have a chance at gaining control. Beyond that you are a target, and as you say, moving ones are harder to hit.



I hope to hell none of us ever have to face something like this. But hopefully the seed might get planted in our brains to run fast. Don't surrender, or wait, or continue. Get the **** out of there before a bead gets drawn on you.

That's a lot of wiggle in your waggle compared to what I responded to, considering I was pretty specific in what may have made someone choose that "alternate" path. I just see contradictions i your las couple of phrases, but like you... "I hope to hell we never..."

*I've driven away from the two times I've had LEO Glocks pointed at my head (oddly, they both had them rousting me from bed). Stay calm, speak clearly and co-operate. But I'm a middle class white male. I was never really in "fear" for my life.
My other "civilian" shooter encounter was... different.

It's closing in on 55 years since my pistolsmith dad started teaching me that firearms are many things, but never, ever a toy. I was six. I can't express how torn I am that I love the enjoyment of target shooting (never hunted, good on them who respect that)... and despise the very idea of "would be" 2A activists who want little more than the power of the gun over any they see as an opponent... or worse, an "inferior".

This thread, and it's impetuses, will NEVER end, as long as we allow the 2A to control how we view firearm ownership in this country. We're too big, too varied a populace, too diverse (with far too much baggage) to achiece that.

Obviously... I'd like to keep my ability to enjoy shooting. Unfortunately, I don't think we ( and I?) are wise or mature enough to allow it.

As the meme says, and for another thread... "change my mind".

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Also interesting in that article is that police said they had no reports of a string of robberies recently in that neighborhood, and that one of the supposed robberies included the killer's own 9mm pistol, claimed to be stolen from his unlocked car.

As an aside, in many jurisdictions it is a crime, or at least a civil infraction, to leave a gun in an unlocked car.

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

As an aside, in many jurisdictions it is a crime, or at least a civil infraction, to leave a gun in an unlocked car.

Well that's crazy. Ain't got time to be fumbling with no locks when there's a black guy that needs shooting.

What there's a black person that needs shot and he gets away in the 20 seconds it takes me to dig my keys out of my pocket, unlock my car, get the gun, and then shoot him? Why I don't reckon I could live with myself if that happened.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

That person needs to be charged with obstruction of justice.

She lost her son, isn't that enough? I mean it always is the argument when some kid gets a gun after all and it just goes off.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by varwoche

Indeed. Consider though... Frequently I hear black people describe how they instruct their children to behave in order to avoid risky confrontations with cops. They don't do this because they think their kids are guilty of something, or because they think cops are always in the right. They do this in the interest of protecting their kids from harm.

Here on the internet, it's hard to distinguish that sentiment from excusing the perps.

(I'm not addressing this to you.) It's my sense that Thermal is not excusing the perps in any way, and I wish posters would lighten up on him.

I agree. As I said before, I think Thermal is taking a "Marplots" position against knee-jerk accusations of racism, and I've found in the past that when facts come out that contradict his hypothetical possible stories, he's ready enough to acknowledge them. I do think that in the search for hypotheticals he treads pretty close to the edge of the abyss sometimes, but we err if we drift from declaring the ideas bad into declaring that their author is.

It is, of course, prudent for parents (not just black) to coach their kids on the ways to avoid being victimized, and it's easy to forget that this is a useful strategy to survive in an unjust world, not an obligatory component of justice.

[Jim_MDP]

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

I didn't state an opinion on if it was a legitimate citizens arrest or not, I stated a conditional "if" and asked a question based on that condition.

I'd say then that your conditionals were false (real world) and I was responding on the real world suppositions.

I have no opinion on your hypethetical..

[lionking]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

She lost her son, isn't that enough? I mean it always is the argument when some kid gets a gun after all and it just goes off.

Go back and re-read. It was not the mother who needs to be charged.

[bruto]

With regard to a citizen's arrest, and Bob's hypothetical idea that the victim was in some way obligated to submit:


Georgia law specifies:

Quote:

A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.

It is a preposterous stretch of the idea to consider that running down a jogger in the middle of the street over an alleged trespass fulfills any of those requirements. Given this, there is no reasonable way you can say that the victim was under any obligation to submit to an arrest that no reasonable person would consider to be a lawful act.

[Jim_MDP]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Hard for me to picture guys standing in the road with guns (I live in a no carry state). Just seeing a firearm in public would likely have me diving for cover, not continuing to run and waiting to see if he put me in his sights.

...

I may have to bail from this crapfest and it's unfortunate because a better convo might have occurred if I had known if you were truely less experienced with how wild our gun laws can be. I've been raised in CA , traveled the lower 48 and lived here in Oregon, but even in Cali, I wouldn't scramble from an open carry situation.
I do however call BS on the Euros who have no problem with airports staffed with select fire MP5s etc. but "hate guns".

I've got a side-eye for mil/pol in public, but can just walk up to regular armed police in the US if I have a question. I often forget to look at what sidearm (brand) they're carrying... I've had chats about department policy, purchase reqs, pricing etc. The fact a normal LEO has a firearm is inconcequential in my societal norm.
Cultural oddities, eh?


*This BT k/b is gona be thee death of me... no autocorrect and the keystroke typos are just too much to keep up with.
Asta baby.

[Jim_MDP]

I had a post regarding the differences of when a "racist" homeowner (ma & pa) see a white male run through their backyard (what a scamp) vs when a POC runs through. Lst to a phone call and the vagaries of Bluetooth.

Screw it... neither side will "get it' until BOTH emphathise with the other side. The centuries of treatment, one to the other, and retaliation back for the same. Institutionalised.
How likely is that?

It's no longer arguing about race. Or about legislation. Or about gun regs. It's about arguing.
This is the actual meaning of arguing with a brick wall.
**** it.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Jim_MDP

I may have to bail from this crapfest and it's unfortunate because a better convo might have occurred if I had known if you were truely less experienced with how wild our gun laws can be. I've been raised in CA , traveled the lower 48 and lived here in Oregon, but even in Cali, I wouldn't scramble from an open carry situation.
I do however call BS on the Euros who have no problem with airports staffed with select fire MP5s etc. but "hate guns".

I've got a side-eye for mil/pol in public, but can just walk up to regular armed police in the US if I have a question. I often forget to look at what sidearm (brand) they're carrying... I've had chats about department policy, purchase reqs, pricing etc. The fact a normal LEO has a firearm is inconcequential in my societal norm.
Cultural oddities, eh?


*This BT k/b is gona be thee death of me... no autocorrect and the keystroke typos are just too much to keep up with.
Asta baby.

Oh, I know how our laws are. The context was of a civilian carrying in the street, ready to fire. Here in New Jersey, that means a Piney (South Jersey redneck) got off the leash and things are about to get interesting. Hard for me to picture my reactions to some Yahoo in the street with a shotgun. In NJ, it means somebody is guaranteed to get shot at in short order. I don't have reactions to open long guns on the street, though I'm used to concealed carry in other states.

Cops, security, and military don't bother me to be carrying, of course. Well cops a little, from personal experience.

OT for the thread, but I'd rather not have open or concealed carry in the States. For every hundred or so responsible sport shooters, there is a guy like in the OP. I don't like those odds.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Ron Obvious

TBF, "our road" is vastly different from "white road".

In the context of this interaction, and the statement of "he's a black man running down our road"... what's the meaningful and material difference?

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

"What kind of world do we live in where decent God fearing gun-toting white people can't even murder an unarmed black person, in broad daylight with a 2 (plus truck) on 1 (on foot) advantage, without fearing for our lives?"

My two-cents on this...

[a_unique_person]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I think if two armed rednecks want a black teenager man there isn't a whole lot the black man can do to change that fact. If he had ran they would have shot him for "trying to flee" if he stands his ground they shoot him for "being a threat" if he had run to a nearby house they would have shot him to "protect the people in the house."

He wasn't killed for a reason, he was killed for an excuse. And the difference between excuses and reasons is you can use any excuse to get the results you want.

That sums it up.

[Minoosh]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Oh good lets talk about all the mistakes Lennon did that got him killed. Being famous for one was ultimately a mistake if he lived a quiet life he might still be alive. That is why people shouldn't be musicians with out understanding the risks.

Sadly, he thought he *was* living a quiet life in NYC ... talked about it with Tom Snyder not long before his death. They could go out to see a film, have dinner etc. without hassle.

/derail

[eerok]

This whole thing is disgusting. Flat out racist murder. I wonder if the grand jury can punish the PD and prosecutor's office for this as well, because I think they deserve it.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

People are either going to have to try and argue that Arbery should have submitted to arrest by two civilians to excuse this one.

And they will.

From Arbery's perspective, I'm going to say the argument is "when chased down and attacked by armed men, you should just give up without a fight." Which is an abysmally dumb argument.

I can pretty much guarantee that if a couple of armed obviously-not-police men in a truck accost me while I'm on foot, I'm going to run like a bunny. If they then cut me off with their truck and come out of the vehicle brandishing a shotgun... I'm going to do everything in my power to try to take that shotgun away from him instead of just meekly waiting to be murdered by a crazy person.

[Jim_MDP]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Oh, I know how our laws are. The context was of a civilian carrying in the street, ready to fire. Here in New Jersey, that means a Piney (South Jersey redneck) got off the leash and things are about to get interesting. Hard for me to picture my reactions to some Yahoo in the street with a shotgun. In NJ, it means somebody is guaranteed to get shot at in short order. I don't have reactions to open long guns on the street, though I'm used to concealed carry in other states.

Cops, security, and military don't bother me to be carrying, of course. Well cops a little, from personal experience.

OT for the thread, but I'd rather not have open or concealed carry in the States. For every hundred or so responsible sport shooters, there is a guy like in the OP. I don't like those odds.

Thnx for the context, (it would have hlped to forestall "troll" calls earirlier if you had fleshe out your posts simililarly, (I'm gonna bust up this damned k/b)


re: guns... we're ******, and will be for 50 years at least.
My fool father in mid 70s was convinced we woulf be where aus has been for 25 yrs, and "forbade" me to go into smithing. I was a teen and went toward tech, but I might have enjoyed it... ertainy would have prospered as a pistol (specialized) smith or even a general gunny over ther last 3 decades. A fool he wass re: teh US... but he wasn't wrong abooout the "civilized" world.



eta: *smacks k/b* and again... again..