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Tags Ahmaud Arbery , Georgia incidents , Gregory McMichael , prosecutorial misconduct , racism charges , racism incidents , shooting incidents , Travis McMichael , William Bryan

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Old 7th April 2021, 09:35 AM   #3441
The Don
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's my point. He didn't cover miles. Or one. Or a half. He was well within the output range for a fit athlete to not break a sweat.
Only if you consider the distance between start and finish point and only if you assume that he covered it at a steady pace. If instead he had to do several maximum efforts during that 8 minute period running back and forth then it's perfectly reasonable for him to be exhausted without him ending up a great distance from his starting point.

Football (soccer) players prove it.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You're still assuming he knew they were armed and was in fear. I am not convinced this was the case, at least until the end.
Yahoos in pickups in rural Georgia unarmed ?

It is to laugh !

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Are you seriously comparing your times with a 25 yr old football athlete? I admire your chutzpah.
Absolutely and I have the race results to prove it.

Heck I even have actual direct experience. My nephew (now 21) was starting linebacker for his high school football team near Denver. They came to visit for Mrs Don and my 25th anniversary 4 years ago. We went out for a run together through the local woodland trails. He was in bits after only 5 miles and this was in June so I wasn't even in race shape.

Was 25-year old Arbery in the same shape as the 18 year old Arbery who played football in high school ?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I was no world class athlete in school, and was sub 6. But conceded, maybe my standards are too high, and Arbery the Jogger couldn't break 8. Whatever. My bad.
Really ? What is your mile PB ? Was it run under race conditions ?

Was your sub-6 minute mile was run on a mixture of roads and grass without any kind of advance preparation, after you had already been on a run and you had no idea whether you were running a mile, half a mile or two miles. Did you have to sprint repeatedly during that mile to evade armed men in a pickup ?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
But he would have done so in seconds. There is an 8 minute window here. He was not sprinting anywhere.
You think he can run "a few hundred yards" in seconds

His account is entirely consistent with a few short, maximum efforts over an 8 minute period trying to evade his pursuers.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Psst...he is not claimed to have covered a mile, even with the back and forth.
No-one is claiming that. You claim that his failure to travel a mile or more from his starting point in 8 minutes is somehow evidence that his account that he was exhausted from the pursuit is rubbish.

If you want to travel the maximum distance in 8 minutes whether in a straight line, shuttle runs or in random directions, you'd do it my pacing your effort. Arbery didn't have the luxury, he was trying to evade people trying to kill him, not set an 8 minute PB.
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Old 7th April 2021, 09:45 AM   #3442
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I think he probably had a pretty good adrenaline dump too. It’s one thing to run a quick mile under ideal conditions, and another to do so under duress. I wouldn’t be surprised if he got exhausted quickly.
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Old 7th April 2021, 09:50 AM   #3443
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Yahoos in pickups in rural Georgia unarmed ?

It is to laugh !
.
I have said this a couple of times:
From his perspective, what's the difference between this and a typical 1950s lynching? Rednecks in a truck chasing after him. As a black person growing up in GA, why SHOULDN'T he assume they are armed?
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Old 7th April 2021, 11:26 AM   #3444
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
High schoolers are dropping that kind of time nowadays. I was in the 5s and wasn't even a runner. World Class are pounding sub 4 on the final mile of running 10+/- other miles. The point is that he was not evidently running, but just trotting back and forth, and yes, I think he wasn't in any real treat of the fat white guys in trucks.

Have you ever tried to duck cop cars? Did you stay on the asphalt to do so?

You guys seem to think Arbery was pretty timid. I have no reason to think he was, even after the gun came out and he went straight for it without hesitation. I think my man had some balls. You seem to think much less of him.
You are either lying, misremembering or misinformed, or all three.
  • I highly doubt that you "not a runner" ran a sub-6:00 mile, ever. Honestly, it smells like BS braggadocio to me.
  • High schoolers are not running sub-4-minute-miles. A couple of boys have done this, ever, in the history of the sport.
  • No one has ever run a sub-4:00 mile at the end of a 10-mile run.


ETA - please ignore this, I was pages behind and didn't mean to pile on.

Last edited by carlitos; 7th April 2021 at 11:30 AM. Reason: read the thread. always read the thread.
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Old 7th April 2021, 11:32 AM   #3445
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I have said this a couple of times:
From his perspective, what's the difference between this and a typical 1950s lynching? Rednecks in a truck chasing after him. As a black person growing up in GA, why SHOULDN'T he assume they are armed?
Same here. You can't have vigilante armed racistsin a vehicle chasing a black guy without a couple of hundred years of context being relevant.
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Old 7th April 2021, 12:01 PM   #3446
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
You are either lying, misremembering or misinformed, or all three.
  • I highly doubt that you "not a runner" ran a sub-6:00 mile, ever. Honestly, it smells like BS braggadocio to me.
  • High schoolers are not running sub-4-minute-miles. A couple of boys have done this, ever, in the history of the sport.
  • No one has ever run a sub-4:00 mile at the end of a 10-mile run.


ETA - please ignore this, I was pages behind and didn't mean to pile on.
Ignoring request to ignore:

Full disclosure re: my time: I was actually pretty good, and was bring recruited to run cross country in HS. The training regime was 40 mi/week, basically a 5k every morning and afternoon with Sunday off. Managable for a spry teen. Broke my ankle and ended it tho, never got back in shape for it. Miles were timed on a dirt route around the school perimeter

Re: 4 min mile at the end of 10 miles: I saw that last year on some international meet, but I can't remember what it was. The announcer specifically commented that the pack was dropping four on the final mile. Also the broke 2 HR Mark on the marathon. It may have my sense of what is "normal" a little screwed up and overzealous.

But if you think sub6 is BS, get out more. Its not a rarity.
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Old 7th April 2021, 12:19 PM   #3447
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Re: 4 min mile at the end of 10 miles: I saw that last year on some international meet, but I can't remember what it was. The announcer specifically commented that the pack was dropping four on the final mile. Also the broke 2 HR Mark on the marathon. It may have my sense of what is "normal" a little screwed up and overzealous.


Last year? No, that is rubbish.

A sub-two hour marathon has never been officially run. Current world record run was by Eliud Kipchoge in Berlin, 2018 - 2:01:39

Kipchoge ran a 1:59:40 in 2019 but that time is not recognized because the event was not an open competition. It was a time trial for Kipchoge. Pace runners shielded him from wind throughout the run, and a bicycle-riding support team was on hand at all times to deliver him water and food.
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Old 7th April 2021, 12:32 PM   #3448
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Last year? No, that is rubbish.

A sub-two hour marathon has never been officially run. Current world record run was by Eliud Kipchoge in Berlin, 2018 - 2:01:39

Kipchoge ran a 1:59:40 in 2019 but that time is not recognized because the event was not an open competition. It was a time trial for Kipchoge. Pace runners shielded him from wind throughout the run, and a bicycle-riding support team was on hand at all times to deliver him water and food.
On a flat course.

I still think someone is going to pull it off soon, but, you are correct, that was not a sanctioned race, but still DAMN impressive. Shoot, I don't care if he was running behind a wind-blocking truck the whole way, 26.2 in under 2 hours is incredible.

There aren't many (if any) others who could do what he did, even given the favorable circumstances. Official or not, that guy is amazing.

Maybe I just think that because he would lap me and my 4:15 marathon time....
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Old 7th April 2021, 12:35 PM   #3449
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
I think he probably had a pretty good adrenaline dump too. It’s one thing to run a quick mile under ideal conditions, and another to do so under duress. I wouldn’t be surprised if he got exhausted quickly.
Not to mention that to run anything close to a sub4, you need to specifically train for it - going out and jogging around the neighbourhood, even daily, ain't going to come close to cutting the mustard. You need a proper fitness and diet regimen.
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Old 7th April 2021, 12:59 PM   #3450
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Ignoring request to ignore:
Oh, yeah. You retracted 'almost immediately'.
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Old 7th April 2021, 01:18 PM   #3451
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All of this is predicated on the idea that if someone doesn't cover the ground that a top athlete in top form might, then that's reason to believe they were cunningly on the attack rather than fearful for their life.

Which is kookoo bananas.

"If they were really a victim here, they would have acted in **way that someone's imagination dictates victims should act**"

We see that in victims of rape or sexual assault. If he were really raping you, you would have fought back harder etc etc etc.

The reality is that whether or not someone behaves as a perfect victim tells you little about their mindset. Constructing fictions about how you imagine a victim should have acted or what you think someone not fitting that mold was really trying to do isn't skepticism. It's masturbatory character assassination. In this case of a murdered man. One of a series of murdered men who are over and over raked over the coals in the same way.

I find it distasteful and having nothing to do with a critical thinking approach to understanding the situation.
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Old 7th April 2021, 01:44 PM   #3452
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
All of this is predicated on the idea that if someone doesn't cover the ground that a top athlete in top form might, then that's reason to believe they were cunningly on the attack rather than fearful for their life.

Which is kookoo bananas.
And also not remotely what's being proposed. The issue was how frantic this chase was. A lot of time for not a lot of distance suggests slow-mo action. Lunging for the gun suggests fearlessness.

Quote:
"If they were really a victim here, they would have acted in **way that someone's imagination dictates victims should act**"

We see that in victims of rape or sexual assault. If he were really raping you, you would have fought back harder etc etc etc.

The reality is that whether or not someone behaves as a perfect victim tells you little about their mindset. Constructing fictions about how you imagine a victim should have acted or what you think someone not fitting that mold was really trying to do isn't skepticism. It's masturbatory character assassination. In this case of a murdered man. One of a series of murdered men who are over and over raked over the coals in the same way.

I find it distasteful and having nothing to do with a critical thinking approach to understanding the situation.
That's a really strange take. Really strange.

Serious question, to you or anyone:

Is everyone you know a fearful sort, or do you just think Arbery must naturally have been for...some reason?

You guys don't know people who wouldn't be afraid of flabby rednecks, even to the point of calling their bluff and lunging for their weapon?

I mean, either I hang with a much different crowd, or you guys have a preexisting opinion of certain kinds of people.
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Old 7th April 2021, 01:45 PM   #3453
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post

But if you think sub6 is BS, get out more. Its not a rarity.
It's definitely a rarity for someone who isn't a runner. You were running 40 miles a week and "not a runner?"

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Old 7th April 2021, 01:52 PM   #3454
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And also not remotely what's being proposed. The issue was how frantic this chase was. A lot of time for not a lot of distance suggests slow-mo action. Lunging for the gun suggests fearlessness.



That's a really strange take. Really strange.

Serious question, to you or anyone:

Is everyone you know a fearful sort, or do you just think Arbery must naturally have been for...some reason?

You guys don't know people who wouldn't be afraid of flabby rednecks, even to the point of calling their bluff and lunging for their weapon?

I mean, either I hang with a much different crowd, or you guys have a preexisting opinion of certain kinds of people.
I think you're projecting a lot of clarity of mind to someone who was probably reacting more on instinct than anything. His killers had a pretty clear understanding of what they thought they were doing, but I see no way for Arbery to have any understanding of what was happening to him other than he was being targeted by dangerous strangers for reasons unknown.

Arbery, having not actually committed any serious crime beyond minor trespass, probably did not understand why these goons wanted to apprehend him. "flabby rednecks" have a long history of committing atrocious hate crimes against black people, and despite the image of ineffectual redneck, these goofy looking people are often quite dangerous, as was the case here.

You seem sure that Arbery was "calling their bluff", but it just as easily could have been an instinctual response of someone being chased and finding himself at close range with an armed attacker. In fact, I think this is much more likely than the idea that Arbery was so full of swagger he assumed disarming his shotgun wielding assailant were an easy task.


I think Arbery's actions show him to be quite brave in the face of unlawful aggression, but that doesn't mean he wasn't experiencing intense fear right up until his murder.
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Old 7th April 2021, 01:52 PM   #3455
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post

You guys don't know people who wouldn't be afraid of flabby rednecks, even to the point of calling their bluff and lunging for their weapon?

I mean, either I hang with a much different crowd, or you guys have a preexisting opinion of certain kinds of people.


Because you wouldn't have felt any fear if a gang in pickup trucks had been chasing you around the streets.

Good for you.
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Old 7th April 2021, 01:54 PM   #3456
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
It's definitely a rarity for someone who isn't a runner. You were running 40 miles a week and "not a runner?"
I was an unremarkable kid training for a local CC team. I didn't think of myself as a Serious runner, any more than a serious soccer or baseball player. We were all doing it. Maybe I assume young guys like Arbery are still youthful powerhouses, in the same way I no longer am. I couldn't do anything remotely like that now, of course.

From discussion here, pretty sure I've overestimated realistic running times tho.
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Old 7th April 2021, 01:57 PM   #3457
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Because you wouldn't have felt any fear if a gang in pickup trucks had been chasing you around the streets.

Good for you.
No, I certainly would. But the idea that one of my buds wouldn't is not alien to me. Everyone here seems to think Arbery couldn't possibly have chutzpah. I have no reason to doubt it. To each his own
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Old 7th April 2021, 01:58 PM   #3458
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
From discussion here, pretty sure I've overestimated realistic running times tho.
Just a bit. I ran sub-6:00 in junior high, but not since then.

Also - running might wear me out more if a pickup truck was "making a couple of moves" at me on the road.
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Old 7th April 2021, 02:02 PM   #3459
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I mean, either I hang with a much different crowd, or you guys have a preexisting opinion of certain kinds of people.
My preexisting opinion of folks who chase down others in pickup trucks is that they might intend harm.

If you hang out in a crowd where you're routinely chased down by angry people in pickup trucks who are likely armed, you may have worked out some well timed and elegant exit strategies. I'd also be questioning your life choices if such a thing happens to you with regularity.

For the vast majority of people in the US, such an occurance is not common, especially in suburban neighborhoods, and a reaction of "What the hell is going on?" is probably a more reasonable expectation.
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Old 7th April 2021, 02:07 PM   #3460
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I was an unremarkable kid training for a local CC team. I didn't think of myself as a Serious runner, any more than a serious soccer or baseball player. We were all doing it. Maybe I assume young guys like Arbery are still youthful powerhouses, in the same way I no longer am. I couldn't do anything remotely like that now, of course.

From discussion here, pretty sure I've overestimated realistic running times tho.
Totally retracted super quickly.
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Old 7th April 2021, 02:33 PM   #3461
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think you're projecting a lot of clarity of mind to someone who was probably reacting more on instinct than anything. His killers had a pretty clear understanding of what they thought they were doing, but I see no way for Arbery to have any understanding of what was happening to him other than he was being targeted by dangerous strangers for reasons unknown.

Arbery, having not actually committed any serious crime beyond minor trespass, probably did not understand why these goons wanted to apprehend him. "flabby rednecks" have a long history of committing atrocious hate crimes against black people, and despite the image of ineffectual redneck, these goofy looking people are often quite dangerous, as was the case here.

You seem sure that Arbery was "calling their bluff", but it just as easily could have been an instinctual response of someone being chased and finding himself at close range with an armed attacker. In fact, I think this is much more likely than the idea that Arbery was so full of swagger he assumed disarming his shotgun wielding assailant were an easy task.


I think Arbery's actions show him to be quite brave in the face of unlawful aggression, but that doesn't mean he wasn't experiencing intense fear right up until his murder.
Again, I'm not sure this was the case one way or the other. I think it's plausible enough, fits the facts and all. Wouldn't bet a dollar without knowing more about the actors and actions. What's surprising is the pushback against the idea that Arbery was confident instead of fearful. It's weird, the ideas about people that posters don't want challenged.
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Old 7th April 2021, 02:34 PM   #3462
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Totally retracted super quickly.
If you're going to be this into me, I'm expecting flowers.
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Old 7th April 2021, 02:43 PM   #3463
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
My preexisting opinion of folks who chase down others in pickup trucks is that they might intend harm.

If you hang out in a crowd where you're routinely chased down by angry people in pickup trucks who are likely armed, you may have worked out some well timed and elegant exit strategies. I'd also be questioning your life choices if such a thing happens to you with regularity.

For the vast majority of people in the US, such an occurance is not common, especially in suburban neighborhoods, and a reaction of "What the hell is going on?" is probably a more reasonable expectation.
Being in trucks makes them far more laughable, to a certain way of thinking. I'd be way more concerned about a group of men surrounding me on foot. Like exponentially more concerned. A couple wheezing butterballs who need motor vehicles to keep up with you is kind of pathetic. It's why I could see Arbery initially viewing them with contempt, not fear of the Great White Man. Different starting assumptions about people. If no guns were in sight yet, Arbery could surely see them as a bunch of posturing dickheads, not a menace to his life.
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Old 7th April 2021, 02:45 PM   #3464
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
All of this is predicated on the idea that if someone doesn't cover the ground that a top athlete in top form might, then that's reason to believe they were cunningly on the attack rather than fearful for their life.

Which is kookoo bananas.

"If they were really a victim here, they would have acted in **way that someone's imagination dictates victims should act**"

We see that in victims of rape or sexual assault. If he were really raping you, you would have fought back harder etc etc etc.

The reality is that whether or not someone behaves as a perfect victim tells you little about their mindset. Constructing fictions about how you imagine a victim should have acted or what you think someone not fitting that mold was really trying to do isn't skepticism. It's masturbatory character assassination. In this case of a murdered man. One of a series of murdered men who are over and over raked over the coals in the same way.

I find it distasteful and having nothing to do with a critical thinking approach to understanding the situation.


Best post in this thread for a long, long time!
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Old 7th April 2021, 02:58 PM   #3465
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post


Best post in this thread for a long, long time!
You are mistaken. I have been informed that my take was:

Quote:
That's a really strange take. Really strange.
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Old 7th April 2021, 03:05 PM   #3466
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
You are mistaken. I have been informed that my take was:
You don't think the Best post could also be really, really strange? Exclusive, are they? Is your imagination really that limited?

I'm seeing more and more that I'm just on a totally different wavelength from a lot of posters here.
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Old 7th April 2021, 03:08 PM   #3467
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You don't think the Best post could also be really, really strange? Exclusive, are they? Is your imagination really that limited?

I'm seeing more and more that I'm just on a totally different wavelength from a lot of posters here.
I didn't get the impression that you meant "strange" in a sense that was consistent with "best".

If you agree with smartcooky that it was a high quality post, thanks!
You have a very strange way of communicating that.
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Old 7th April 2021, 03:10 PM   #3468
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I didn't get the impression that you meant "strange" in a sense that was consistent with "best".

If you agree with smartcooky that it was a high quality post, thanks!
You have a very strange way of communicating that.
The Best way.

(Thanks for the set up)
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Old 7th April 2021, 03:43 PM   #3469
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Again, I'm not sure this was the case one way or the other. I think it's plausible enough, fits the facts and all. Wouldn't bet a dollar without knowing more about the actors and actions. What's surprising is the pushback against the idea that Arbery was confident instead of fearful. It's weird, the ideas about people that posters don't want challenged.
Anyone "confident" while charging a man with a shotgun unarmed would have to be certifiably insane. Arbery may have assessed that this was the correct action, or even just acted on instinct when faced with an imminently deadly situation, but I very much doubt he was "confident" about anything once this trio of murderers started stalking him.
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Old 7th April 2021, 04:00 PM   #3470
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Thermal, I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to get at. Let's try this: What do you think actually happened? Arbery lunged at his attacker because... he was annoyed? Because he thought it would make for a fun story to tell his friends?

I'm still trying to figure out why running times have been a lengthy topic of debate.
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Old 7th April 2021, 04:14 PM   #3471
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Thermal, I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to get at. Let's try this: What do you think actually happened? Arbery lunged at his attacker because... he was annoyed? Because he thought it would make for a fun story to tell his friends?

I'm still trying to figure out why running times have been a lengthy topic of debate.
They are a useful distraction to bog down the thread.

Standard tactics.
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Old 7th April 2021, 04:34 PM   #3472
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
They are a useful distraction to bog down the thread.

Standard tactics.
Debating the existence of the forest, one tree at a time.
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Old 7th April 2021, 05:05 PM   #3473
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If you're going to be this into me, I'm expecting flowers.
You're getting the flower pot, instead.

You brought all this upon yourself. Next time have some humility when you put your foot in your mouth.
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Old 7th April 2021, 05:06 PM   #3474
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post


Best post in this thread for a long, long time!
Yeah he nailed it right on the head.
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Old 7th April 2021, 05:15 PM   #3475
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Anyone "confident" while charging a man with a shotgun unarmed would have to be certifiably insane. Arbery may have assessed that this was the correct action, or even just acted on instinct when faced with an imminently deadly situation, but I very much doubt he was "confident" about anything once this trio of murderers started stalking him.
I'm starting to wonder if the victim would be afforded more benefit of the doubt if his, er... characteristics were different.
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Old 7th April 2021, 05:30 PM   #3476
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Being in trucks makes them far more laughable, to a certain way of thinking. I'd be way more concerned about a group of men surrounding me on foot. Like exponentially more concerned. A couple wheezing butterballs who need motor vehicles to keep up with you is kind of pathetic. It's why I could see Arbery initially viewing them with contempt, not fear of the Great White Man. Different starting assumptions about people. If no guns were in sight yet, Arbery could surely see them as a bunch of posturing dickheads, not a menace to his life.
Makes sense, may have had so much contempt for them that he didn’t think they were worth his time and decided to run away out of disgust. I mean, Jesus Christ, they weren’t even on foot!
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Old 7th April 2021, 06:08 PM   #3477
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Indeed, it’s already been pointed out that hanging around a construction site is pretty suspicious.
To be honest, I was rather surprised when so many posters said that they routinely wander around construction sites. Where I live, every construction site I've seen is fenced and locked, so that random passers-by without hard hats and safety boots can't enter the site and wander unchecked. If I did enter through an unlocked gate I'd be spotted and immediately ejected by the construction workers.
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Old 7th April 2021, 06:31 PM   #3478
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
To be honest, I was rather surprised when so many posters said that they routinely wander around construction sites. Where I live, every construction site I've seen is fenced and locked, so that random passers-by without hard hats and safety boots can't enter the site and wander unchecked. If I did enter through an unlocked gate I'd be spotted and immediately ejected by the construction workers.
On the other hand I have no idea why old people just loiter outside the barricades and look at an unfinished building. I mean, yeah, construction can be interesting as in, you look at it as you stroll by...but I wouldn't stick around.
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Old 7th April 2021, 06:37 PM   #3479
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
On the other hand I have no idea why old people just loiter outside the barricades and look at an unfinished building. I mean, yeah, construction can be interesting as in, you look at it as you stroll by...but I wouldn't stick around.
There can be a certain amount of competence porn in watching experienced construction workers do their thing, but most of the time it goes so slowly that it just takes too long to sit around watching.
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Old 7th April 2021, 06:41 PM   #3480
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There can be a certain amount of competence porn in watching experienced construction workers do their thing, but most of the time it goes so slowly that it just takes too long to sit around watching.
Exactly. The solution is timelapse videos.
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