Ghislaine Maxwell - Page 2

SuburbanTurkey · 9th July 2020, 12:43 PM

If Maxwell dies in jail before a trial, not a remote possibility with the Covid rates in our abysmal prisons, it's going to kick the Epstein conspiracies into top gear.

carlitos · 9th July 2020, 12:56 PM

I was replying to Shemp and his press-credentialed cat. All good now, no worries.

Matthew Best · 11th July 2020, 07:36 AM

So Maxwell's lawyers asked for bail, which is not a surprise. In their filing they said that she was NOT a flight risk and indeed claimed that Maxwell has been in "regular contact" with federal prosecutors from the day following Epstein's arrest through her own arrest earlier this month.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/10/u...nse/index.html

Maxwell's attorneys also preview legal arguments they plan to make with regard to the indictment, which center on a non-prosecution agreement Epstein signed with federal prosecutors in Miami in 2007 that appeared to immunize "any potential co-conspirators of Epstein."

When Epstein himself was indicted, New York federal prosecutors said they believed the Florida agreement didn't restrict their office from prosecuting him, but his lawyers argued otherwise. That dispute wasn't resolved because Epstein died in jail while awaiting trial.

Darat · 11th July 2020, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by carlitos

She may soon. Word is that Ghislane Maxwell "brokered the sale" of Melania Knauss to Donald Trump on behalf of Jeffery Epstein. That's the kind of secret that can get you killed. No idea how to link this - it's in a twitter video linked by rightwingwatch.

The guy expressing this opinion is Rick Wiles, who apparently has White House press credentials.

And we all know how credible those Whitehouse press credentials are, afterall they don't hand them out to every conspiracy theory idiot..... just selected ones!

bruto · 11th July 2020, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

I don’t think this is actually true. There’s been no official word that she tested positive for coronavirus.

yes, it turns out to be a hoax, and I turn out to be a sucker, I guess, for not checking it out.

IsThisTheLife · 11th July 2020, 11:25 AM

Surprised she didn't leg it to Israel like "Dame" Shirley Porter, she has the "Right of Return" and all that. Then again, maybe she considered it but figured it would be as good as admitting guilt.

theprestige · 11th July 2020, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

Surprised she didn't leg it to Israel like "Dame" Shirley Porter, she has the "Right of Return" and all that. Then again, maybe she considered it but figured it would be as good as admitting guilt.

Not sure "a good as admitting guilt" matters in her context. The courts still have to get actual evidence and build an actual case. "She fled the country, therefore she's guilty" isn't actually a thing in criminal law. And it's not like she gives a fig for the court of public opinion. She's a true 1%-er. Those of her class peers who were going to cut her off for her sins have already done so. The others - her allies and co-conspirators (I hesitate to call them her friends) - don't care how it looks. They're going to expect her to use every dirty trick her set can afford, to get out of facing the commoners' music.

bruto · 11th July 2020, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Not sure "a good as admitting guilt" matters in her context. The courts still have to get actual evidence and build an actual case. "She fled the country, therefore she's guilty" isn't actually a thing in criminal law. And it's not like she gives a fig for the court of public opinion. She's a true 1%-er. Those of her class peers who were going to cut her off for her sins have already done so. The others - her allies and co-conspirators (I hesitate to call them her friends) - don't care how it looks. They're going to expect her to use every dirty trick her set can afford, to get out of facing the commoners' music.

Indeed, it doesn't seem as if she would give a fig about whether she looks guilty or not especially to a public which already holds her in disesteem. Which leaves the possibility that she thinks there's a chance of getting off in court, or, of course, the possibility that she's just not very smart. Granted, I haven't followed her career much, but the little I've seen seems to require more chutzpah and round heels than brains.

Ian Osborne · 11th July 2020, 02:28 PM

I wonder where Prince Andrew fits in all of this? Could he be required to testify at her trial, should there be one?

Matthew Best · 11th July 2020, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

I wonder where Prince Andrew fits in all of this? Could he be required to testify at her trial, should there be one?

It seems unlikely to me. The prosecution would have no reason to call him as he’s just going to say he never saw anything untoward. And the defence seems like they are going more for a “technical” defence of being either time barred or covered by an immunity agreement.

But it would be hugely entertaining!

Elagabalus · 11th July 2020, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

It seems unlikely to me. The prosecution would have no reason to call him as he’s just going to say he never saw anything untoward. And the defence seems like they are going more for a “technical” defence of being either time barred or covered by an immunity agreement.

But it would be hugely entertaining!

Eh ... keep your options open. They might call him to testify just so he can repeat his blithering idiot schtick to an American audience.

prince-andrew-bbc-interview-jeffrey-epstein-disaster(1percentersmag ...eh...townandcountrymag)

MaGZ · 12th July 2020, 04:40 AM

She should be moved to Camp Peary for obvious reasons.

Giordano · 12th July 2020, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

Surprised she didn't leg it to Israel like "Dame" Shirley Porter, she has the "Right of Return" and all that. Then again, maybe she considered it but figured it would be as good as admitting guilt.

I suspect if she had tried it she would have been rapidly extradited to the USA. She would be a public relations nightmare if accepted into in any country, as well as a political can of worms.

theprestige · 12th July 2020, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Giordano

I suspect if she had tried it she would have been rapidly extradited to the USA. She would be a public relations nightmare if accepted into in any country, as well as a political can of worms.

I hear Ecuador has a spare bedroom these days.

Darat · 12th July 2020, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

Surprised she didn't leg it to Israel like "Dame" Shirley Porter, she has the "Right of Return" and all that. Then again, maybe she considered it but figured it would be as good as admitting guilt.

Or her mother. Family tradition.

Bob001 · 12th July 2020, 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by Giordano

I suspect if she had tried it she would have been rapidly extradited to the USA. She would be a public relations nightmare if accepted into in any country, as well as a political can of worms.

Some countries won't extradite their own citizens. France is one of them. If she could have gotten to France, as the French-born daughter of a French mother she would likely have been safe.

Arcade22 · 14th July 2020, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by Bob001

Some countries won't extradite their own citizens. France is one of them. If she could have gotten to France, as the French-born daughter of a French mother she would likely have been safe.

Safe from extradition maybe, but she could likely still have faced prosecution in France even if the crime didn't take place there.

Countries that do not extradite their citizens often permit other states to ask for their prosecution if the relevant criminal acts are illegal in both countries.

Bob001 · 14th July 2020, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by Arcade22

Safe from extradition maybe, but she could likely still have faced prosecution in France even if the crime didn't take place there.

Countries that do not extradite their citizens often permit other states to ask for their prosecution if the relevant criminal acts are illegal in both countries.

I'd like toi see a cite for that. I suppose it's conceivable, especially in the case of war crimes, but it's hard to imagine that it's routine. I don't see how someone could be prosecuted in France for crimes committed in New York and Florida. And what happens if the defendant is convicted? Does he go to a French jail? Does his home country pay for it? The whole point of prohibiting extradition is to protect a nation's citizens from foreign authority. I doubt they would circumvent it casually.

Bob001 · 14th July 2020, 07:48 PM

Bail denied. Looks like she'll spend a year in jail before trial.

Quote:

Though the judge agreed with Maxwell's lawyers that her decision not flee the country while under criminal investigation for at least a year should be given "significant consideration," she ultimately rejected the proposed bail package.

The judge said she found it "practically impossible" to set financial conditions that could assure Maxwell's appearance in court, adding that "her recent conduct underscores her extraordinary capacity to avoid detection."

The judge scheduled Maxwell's trial to begin on July 12, 2021. Prosecutors said they expect the trial to take about three weeks.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime...id=mailsignout

angrysoba · 14th July 2020, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by Bob001

Bail denied. Looks like she'll spend a year in jail before trial.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime...id=mailsignout

Wow! That is pretty rough.

Filippo Lippi · 15th July 2020, 02:26 AM

She's showing a lot of leg on the front page of the (London) Times today. are they trying to change this (alleged) monster into some sort of sexy femme fatale?

Arcade22 · 15th July 2020, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Bob001

I'd like toi see a cite for that. I suppose it's conceivable, especially in the case of war crimes, but it's hard to imagine that it's routine. I don't see how someone could be prosecuted in France for crimes committed in New York and Florida. And what happens if the defendant is convicted? Does he go to a French jail? Does his home country pay for it? The whole point of prohibiting extradition is to protect a nation's citizens from foreign authority. I doubt they would circumvent it casually.

Quote:

ARTICLE 113-6
French criminal law is applicable to any felony committed by a French national outside the territory of the French Republic. It is applicable to misdemeanours committed by French nationals outside the territory of the French Republic if the conduct is punishable under the legislation of the country in which it was committed.

The present article applies even if the offender has acquired French nationality after the commission of the offence of which he is accused.

ARTICLE 113-7
French Criminal law is applicable to any felony, as well as to any misdemeanour punished by imprisonment, committed by a French or foreign national outside the territory of the French Republic, where the victim is a French national at the time the offence took place.

ARTICLE 113-8
In the cases set out under articles 113-6 and 113-7, the prosecution of misdemeanours may only be instigated at the behest of the public prosecutor. It must be preceded by a complaint made by the victim or his successor, or by an official accusation made by the authority of the country where the offence was committed.

https://www.legislationline.org/docu...30/France/show

Similar provisions exist in many of the law codes that I have been able to find in English.

Belz... · 15th July 2020, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi

She's showing a lot of leg on the front page of the (London) Times today. are they trying to change this (alleged) monster into some sort of sexy femme fatale?

Maybe even a sexy femme fatale in a wheelchair, to play both sides.

catsmate · 15th July 2020, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Arcade22

https://www.legislationline.org/docu...30/France/show

Similar provisions exist in many of the law codes that I have been able to find in English.

The Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Acts in Ireland for example. IIRR such provisions are usual in Council of Europe members.

Arcade22 · 15th July 2020, 03:49 PM

Another example of "universal jurisdiction" that allows for the prosecution of people who can't be extradited (amongst others) is in Swedish law:

Quote:

Chapter 2 – On the applicability of Swedish law
Section 1
An offence committed in this
country is judged under Swedish
law and in a Swedish court. This
also applies if it is uncertain
where the offence was
committed but there are grounds
to assume that it was committed
in this country. Act 1972:812.

Section 2
An offence committed
abroad is judged under Swedish
law and in a Swedish court if the
offence was committed:
1. by a Swedish citizen or an
alien habitually resident in
Sweden;
2. by an alien not habitually
resident in Sweden who, after
the offence, has become a
Swedish citizen or become
habitually resident in this
country, or who is a Danish,
Finnish, Icelandic or Norwegian
citizen and is in Sweden;
3. by any other alien who is in
this country and the offence can,
under Swedish law, result in
imprisonment for more than six
months; or
4. in the exercise of the
business activities of a Swedish
company and the offence is
giving of a bribe, gross giving of
a bribe or trading in influence
under Chapter 10, Section 5d, point 2.

The first paragraph does not
apply if the act is not subject to
responsibility under the law of
the place where it was
committed or if it was
committed in an area that does
not belong to any state and,
under Swedish law, the penalty
for the act cannot be more severe
than a fine.
In cases referred to in this
Section, no sanction may be
imposed that is considered more
severe than the most severe
penalty provided for the offence
under the law in the place where
it was committed.

https://www.government.se/government...criminal-code/

Bob001 · 15th July 2020, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by Arcade22

https://www.legislationline.org/docu...30/France/show

Similar provisions exist in many of the law codes that I have been able to find in English.

Like I said, "I suppose it's conceivable, especially in the case of war crimes..." But how often does it actually happen? And under what circumstances? Exhibit A: Roman Polanski.

Sounds like it might not apply to run-of-the-mill crimes.

Quote:

The French Criminal Code of Procedure (CCP) provides for universal jurisdiction over specified offenses emanating from international conventions ratified by France.1 Yet, the CCP does not establish an obligation to prosecute these crimes.2 The principle of universal jurisdiction allows for the investigation and prosecution of crimes regardless of where they were committed, and irrespective of the nationality of the victims and perpetrators.

The following crimes are penalized by French law under universal jurisdiction principles: torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment;3 enforced disappearances;4 crimes against cultural property during armed conflict;5 terrorism and financing terrorism;6 offenses committed with nuclear materials;7 unlawful acts against the safety of maritime navigation;8 seizure of aircraft and other crimes related to aviation;9 European Union (EU) corruption crimes;10 crimes within the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court (ICC);11 and specific road transport offenses.12
....

https://trialinternational.org/wp-co...-in-France.pdf

She might not have been perfectly safe in France, but I'm willing to bet she'd have been safer in Paris than in New Hampshire if she could have gotten there.

bruto · 15th July 2020, 08:31 PM

I suppose one possibility is that she knows something we don't about what she might have done in France.

Gord_in_Toronto · 15th July 2020, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by Bob001

Like I said, "I suppose it's conceivable, especially in the case of war crimes..." But how often does it actually happen? And under what circumstances? Exhibit A: Roman Polanski.

Sounds like it might not apply to run-of-the-mill crimes.

https://trialinternational.org/wp-co...-in-France.pdf

She might not have been perfectly safe in France, but I'm willing to bet she'd have been safer in Paris than in New Hampshire if she could have gotten there.

If she is really rich enough, that may still happen. Vide Carlos Ghosn's escape from Japan.

smartcooky · 15th July 2020, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

If she is really rich enough, that may still happen. Vide Carlos Ghosn's escape from Japan.

Yes but Ghosn got bail and managed to escape from that by walking out of his house. Escaping from jail and then fleeing the country is a whole different ballgame.

zooterkin · 15th July 2020, 09:28 PM

The surprise news is that she is apparently married, but won’t name her husband.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...effrey-epstein

Where was Prince Andrew last November?

angrysoba · 15th July 2020, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi

She's showing a lot of leg on the front page of the (London) Times today. are they trying to change this (alleged) monster into some sort of sexy femme fatale?

Foxy Knoxy Part II

arthwollipot · 15th July 2020, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

The surprise news is that she is apparently married, but won’t name her husband.

Wha? Isn't it a matter of public record? Isn't there a BDM office (Births Deaths and Marriages - get your mind out of the gutter) that this can be checked up on? A marriage is a legal contract.

Bob001 · 15th July 2020, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Wha? Isn't it a matter of public record? Isn't there a BDM office (Births Deaths and Marriages - get your mind out of the gutter) that this can be checked up on? A marriage is a legal contract.

Where? In the U.S., most birth, marriage and death records are maintained at the local level. You would have to know where she was allegedly married to look at the city or county records there. And they're not entirely public, in the sense that anybody could walk in and say "lemme see." You have to have a reason. I dunno whether she should be believed; she's pretty good at lying.

arthwollipot · 15th July 2020, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by Bob001

Where? In the U.S., most birth, marriage and death records are maintained at the local level. You would have to know where she was allegedly married to look at the city or county records there. And they're not entirely public, in the sense that anybody could walk in and say "lemme see." You have to have a reason. I dunno whether she should be believed; she's pretty good at lying.

Oh of course. I forgot. America.

zooterkin · 16th July 2020, 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Oh of course. I forgot. America.

Could be any country in the world, you’d have to know where to start looking even if they did have centralised records.

smartcooky · 16th July 2020, 03:32 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Could be any country in the world, you’d have to know where to start looking even if they did have centralised records.

Not any country.

Here (and in Australia, where Arth comes from) we have a national "Registrar of Births, Deaths and Marriages". If I have authorised access, I could simply look up a person's name and find out where they were born, whether or not they were married, and if so, who they were married to. The whole exercise would take less than five minutes.

Arcade22 · 16th July 2020, 03:35 AM

Originally Posted by Bob001

Like I said, "I suppose it's conceivable, especially in the case of war crimes..." But how often does it actually happen? And under what circumstances? Exhibit A: Roman Polanski.

Sounds like it might not apply to run-of-the-mill crimes.

https://trialinternational.org/wp-co...-in-France.pdf

She might not have been perfectly safe in France, but I'm willing to bet she'd have been safer in Paris than in New Hampshire if she could have gotten there.

Roman Polanski is a exceptional case. The point was that simply avoiding extradition would not mean that she would avoid any and all legal consequences even-though she would have with all likelihood had a better chance of not being convinced in France (unless the evidence was overwhelming) given the increased work required by the Americans.

One of the major problems in "cross-jurisdictional prosecution" (or whatever you want to call it) is that regulations may severely compromise the authorities ability to meet the legal requirements in both jurisdictions. The sharing of evidence is a great example of that. Not to mention that police and prosecutors often quickly lose interest as long as the alleged criminal stays away... and outside of the spotlight.

zooterkin · 16th July 2020, 04:46 AM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Not any country.

Here (and in Australia, where Arth comes from) we have a national "Registrar of Births, Deaths and Marriages". If I have authorised access, I could simply look up a person's name and find out where they were born, whether or not they were married, and if so, who they were married to. The whole exercise would take less than five minutes.

That's once you've established it was in Australia. Sure, once you start looking in Australia, it might not take long, but how do you know that's where to look?

zooterkin · 16th July 2020, 04:55 AM

The papers are speculating that it's Scott Borgerson.

Gord_in_Toronto · 16th July 2020, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Yes but Ghosn got bail and managed to escape from that by walking out of his house. Escaping from jail and then fleeing the country is a whole different ballgame.

OK. But I did say "rich enough". A bribe or two here and there. Rental or theft of a stealth helicopter. Pick up from an open area. Flight into international waters. Transfer to Liberian registered ship. And away we go. Is there anything that cannot be bought with money?

And, don't forget she "has" a lot of scandalous information on lots of important people who might be coerced to cooperate.

9th July 2020, 12:43 PM	#41
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,529	If Maxwell dies in jail before a trial, not a remote possibility with the Covid rates in our abysmal prisons, it's going to kick the Epstein conspiracies into top gear.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

11th July 2020, 08:00 AM	#44
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,813	Originally Posted by carlitos She may soon. Word is that Ghislane Maxwell "brokered the sale" of Melania Knauss to Donald Trump on behalf of Jeffery Epstein. That's the kind of secret that can get you killed. No idea how to link this - it's in a twitter video linked by rightwingwatch. The guy expressing this opinion is Rick Wiles, who apparently has White House press credentials. And we all know how credible those Whitehouse press credentials are, afterall they don't hand them out to every conspiracy theory idiot..... just selected ones!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

11th July 2020, 08:11 AM	#45
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 28,220	Originally Posted by Matthew Best I don’t think this is actually true. There’s been no official word that she tested positive for coronavirus. yes, it turns out to be a hoax, and I turn out to be a sucker, I guess, for not checking it out.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)

11th July 2020, 11:25 AM	#46
IsThisTheLife Muse Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 590	Surprised she didn't leg it to Israel like "Dame" Shirley Porter, she has the "Right of Return" and all that. Then again, maybe she considered it but figured it would be as good as admitting guilt.
IsThisTheLife Muse Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 590	__________________ "There is no sin except stupidity."

11th July 2020, 01:32 PM	#48
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 28,220	Originally Posted by theprestige Not sure "a good as admitting guilt" matters in her context. The courts still have to get actual evidence and build an actual case. "She fled the country, therefore she's guilty" isn't actually a thing in criminal law. And it's not like she gives a fig for the court of public opinion. She's a true 1%-er. Those of her class peers who were going to cut her off for her sins have already done so. The others - her allies and co-conspirators (I hesitate to call them her friends) - don't care how it looks. They're going to expect her to use every dirty trick her set can afford, to get out of facing the commoners' music. Indeed, it doesn't seem as if she would give a fig about whether she looks guilty or not especially to a public which already holds her in disesteem. Which leaves the possibility that she thinks there's a chance of getting off in court, or, of course, the possibility that she's just not very smart. Granted, I haven't followed her career much, but the little I've seen seems to require more chutzpah and round heels than brains.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)

9th July 2020, 12:56 PM	#42
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 22,860	I was replying to Shemp and his press-credentialed cat. All good now, no worries.

11th July 2020, 07:36 AM	#43
Matthew Best Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 8,445	So Maxwell's lawyers asked for bail, which is not a surprise. In their filing they said that she was NOT a flight risk and indeed claimed that Maxwell has been in "regular contact" with federal prosecutors from the day following Epstein's arrest through her own arrest earlier this month. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/10/u...nse/index.html Maxwell's attorneys also preview legal arguments they plan to make with regard to the indictment, which center on a non-prosecution agreement Epstein signed with federal prosecutors in Miami in 2007 that appeared to immunize "any potential co-conspirators of Epstein." When Epstein himself was indicted, New York federal prosecutors said they believed the Florida agreement didn't restrict their office from prosecuting him, but his lawyers argued otherwise. That dispute wasn't resolved because Epstein died in jail while awaiting trial.

11th July 2020, 01:14 PM	#47
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,622	Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife Surprised she didn't leg it to Israel like "Dame" Shirley Porter, she has the "Right of Return" and all that. Then again, maybe she considered it but figured it would be as good as admitting guilt. Not sure "a good as admitting guilt" matters in her context. The courts still have to get actual evidence and build an actual case. "She fled the country, therefore she's guilty" isn't actually a thing in criminal law. And it's not like she gives a fig for the court of public opinion. She's a true 1%-er. Those of her class peers who were going to cut her off for her sins have already done so. The others - her allies and co-conspirators (I hesitate to call them her friends) - don't care how it looks. They're going to expect her to use every dirty trick her set can afford, to get out of facing the commoners' music.

11th July 2020, 02:28 PM	#49
Ian Osborne JREF Kid Tagger Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,261	I wonder where Prince Andrew fits in all of this? Could he be required to testify at her trial, should there be one?
	__________________ "Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced" - Joe Klein, Time magazine "The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan

11th July 2020, 04:58 PM	#50
Matthew Best Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 8,445	Originally Posted by Ian Osborne I wonder where Prince Andrew fits in all of this? Could he be required to testify at her trial, should there be one? It seems unlikely to me. The prosecution would have no reason to call him as he’s just going to say he never saw anything untoward. And the defence seems like they are going more for a “technical” defence of being either time barred or covered by an immunity agreement. But it would be hugely entertaining!

11th July 2020, 06:29 PM	#51
Elagabalus Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 7,012	Originally Posted by Matthew Best It seems unlikely to me. The prosecution would have no reason to call him as he’s just going to say he never saw anything untoward. And the defence seems like they are going more for a “technical” defence of being either time barred or covered by an immunity agreement. But it would be hugely entertaining! Eh ... keep your options open. They might call him to testify just so he can repeat his blithering idiot schtick to an American audience. prince-andrew-bbc-interview-jeffrey-epstein-disaster(1percentersmag ...eh...townandcountrymag)
Elagabalus Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 7,012

12th July 2020, 04:40 AM	#52
MaGZ Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6,917	She should be moved to Camp Peary for obvious reasons.
MaGZ Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6,917

12th July 2020, 08:59 AM	#53
Giordano Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 17,646	Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife Surprised she didn't leg it to Israel like "Dame" Shirley Porter, she has the "Right of Return" and all that. Then again, maybe she considered it but figured it would be as good as admitting guilt. I suspect if she had tried it she would have been rapidly extradited to the USA. She would be a public relations nightmare if accepted into in any country, as well as a political can of worms.

12th July 2020, 10:21 AM	#54
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,622	Originally Posted by Giordano I suspect if she had tried it she would have been rapidly extradited to the USA. She would be a public relations nightmare if accepted into in any country, as well as a political can of worms. I hear Ecuador has a spare bedroom these days.

12th July 2020, 10:25 AM	#55
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,813	Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife Surprised she didn't leg it to Israel like "Dame" Shirley Porter, she has the "Right of Return" and all that. Then again, maybe she considered it but figured it would be as good as admitting guilt. Or her mother. Family tradition.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

12th July 2020, 11:26 PM	#56
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 13,002	Originally Posted by Giordano I suspect if she had tried it she would have been rapidly extradited to the USA. She would be a public relations nightmare if accepted into in any country, as well as a political can of worms. Some countries won't extradite their own citizens. France is one of them. If she could have gotten to France, as the French-born daughter of a French mother she would likely have been safe.

14th July 2020, 02:19 PM	#57
Arcade22 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 6,823	Originally Posted by Bob001 Some countries won't extradite their own citizens. France is one of them. If she could have gotten to France, as the French-born daughter of a French mother she would likely have been safe. Safe from extradition maybe, but she could likely still have faced prosecution in France even if the crime didn't take place there. Countries that do not extradite their citizens often permit other states to ask for their prosecution if the relevant criminal acts are illegal in both countries.
	__________________ We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann

14th July 2020, 03:52 PM	#58
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 13,002	Originally Posted by Arcade22 Safe from extradition maybe, but she could likely still have faced prosecution in France even if the crime didn't take place there. Countries that do not extradite their citizens often permit other states to ask for their prosecution if the relevant criminal acts are illegal in both countries. I'd like toi see a cite for that. I suppose it's conceivable, especially in the case of war crimes, but it's hard to imagine that it's routine. I don't see how someone could be prosecuted in France for crimes committed in New York and Florida. And what happens if the defendant is convicted? Does he go to a French jail? Does his home country pay for it? The whole point of prohibiting extradition is to protect a nation's citizens from foreign authority. I doubt they would circumvent it casually.

14th July 2020, 07:48 PM	#59
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 13,002	Bail denied. Looks like she'll spend a year in jail before trial. Quote: Though the judge agreed with Maxwell's lawyers that her decision not flee the country while under criminal investigation for at least a year should be given "significant consideration," she ultimately rejected the proposed bail package. The judge said she found it "practically impossible" to set financial conditions that could assure Maxwell's appearance in court, adding that "her recent conduct underscores her extraordinary capacity to avoid detection." The judge scheduled Maxwell's trial to begin on July 12, 2021. Prosecutors said they expect the trial to take about three weeks. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime...id=mailsignout

14th July 2020, 08:03 PM	#60
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,608	Originally Posted by Bob001 Bail denied. Looks like she'll spend a year in jail before trial. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime...id=mailsignout Wow! That is pretty rough.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

15th July 2020, 02:26 AM	#61
Filippo Lippi Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,433	She's showing a lot of leg on the front page of the (London) Times today. are they trying to change this (alleged) monster into some sort of sexy femme fatale?
	__________________ You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis

15th July 2020, 03:14 PM	#62
Arcade22 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 6,823	Originally Posted by Bob001 I'd like toi see a cite for that. I suppose it's conceivable, especially in the case of war crimes, but it's hard to imagine that it's routine. I don't see how someone could be prosecuted in France for crimes committed in New York and Florida. And what happens if the defendant is convicted? Does he go to a French jail? Does his home country pay for it? The whole point of prohibiting extradition is to protect a nation's citizens from foreign authority. I doubt they would circumvent it casually. Quote: ARTICLE 113-6 French criminal law is applicable to any felony committed by a French national outside the territory of the French Republic. It is applicable to misdemeanours committed by French nationals outside the territory of the French Republic if the conduct is punishable under the legislation of the country in which it was committed. The present article applies even if the offender has acquired French nationality after the commission of the offence of which he is accused. ARTICLE 113-7 French Criminal law is applicable to any felony, as well as to any misdemeanour punished by imprisonment, committed by a French or foreign national outside the territory of the French Republic, where the victim is a French national at the time the offence took place. ARTICLE 113-8 In the cases set out under articles 113-6 and 113-7, the prosecution of misdemeanours may only be instigated at the behest of the public prosecutor. It must be preceded by a complaint made by the victim or his successor, or by an official accusation made by the authority of the country where the offence was committed. https://www.legislationline.org/docu...30/France/show Similar provisions exist in many of the law codes that I have been able to find in English.
	__________________ We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann Last edited by Arcade22; 15th July 2020 at 03:18 PM.

15th July 2020, 03:24 PM	#63
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 92,073	Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi She's showing a lot of leg on the front page of the (London) Times today. are they trying to change this (alleged) monster into some sort of sexy femme fatale? Maybe even a sexy femme fatale in a wheelchair, to play both sides.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

15th July 2020, 03:29 PM	#64
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 24,328	Originally Posted by Arcade22 https://www.legislationline.org/docu...30/France/show Similar provisions exist in many of the law codes that I have been able to find in English. The Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Acts in Ireland for example. IIRR such provisions are usual in Council of Europe members.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

15th July 2020, 03:49 PM	#65
Arcade22 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 6,823	Another example of "universal jurisdiction" that allows for the prosecution of people who can't be extradited (amongst others) is in Swedish law: Quote: Chapter 2 – On the applicability of Swedish law Section 1 An offence committed in this country is judged under Swedish law and in a Swedish court. This also applies if it is uncertain where the offence was committed but there are grounds to assume that it was committed in this country. Act 1972:812. Section 2 An offence committed abroad is judged under Swedish law and in a Swedish court if the offence was committed: 1. by a Swedish citizen or an alien habitually resident in Sweden; 2. by an alien not habitually resident in Sweden who, after the offence, has become a Swedish citizen or become habitually resident in this country, or who is a Danish, Finnish, Icelandic or Norwegian citizen and is in Sweden; 3. by any other alien who is in this country and the offence can, under Swedish law, result in imprisonment for more than six months; or 4. in the exercise of the business activities of a Swedish company and the offence is giving of a bribe, gross giving of a bribe or trading in influence under Chapter 10, Section 5d, point 2. The first paragraph does not apply if the act is not subject to responsibility under the law of the place where it was committed or if it was committed in an area that does not belong to any state and, under Swedish law, the penalty for the act cannot be more severe than a fine. In cases referred to in this Section, no sanction may be imposed that is considered more severe than the most severe penalty provided for the offence under the law in the place where it was committed. https://www.government.se/government...criminal-code/
	__________________ We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann

15th July 2020, 05:13 PM	#66
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 13,002	Originally Posted by Arcade22 https://www.legislationline.org/docu...30/France/show Similar provisions exist in many of the law codes that I have been able to find in English. Like I said, "I suppose it's conceivable, especially in the case of war crimes..." But how often does it actually happen? And under what circumstances? Exhibit A: Roman Polanski. Sounds like it might not apply to run-of-the-mill crimes. Quote: The French Criminal Code of Procedure (CCP) provides for universal jurisdiction over specified offenses emanating from international conventions ratified by France.1 Yet, the CCP does not establish an obligation to prosecute these crimes.2 The principle of universal jurisdiction allows for the investigation and prosecution of crimes regardless of where they were committed, and irrespective of the nationality of the victims and perpetrators. The following crimes are penalized by French law under universal jurisdiction principles: torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment;3 enforced disappearances;4 crimes against cultural property during armed conflict;5 terrorism and financing terrorism;6 offenses committed with nuclear materials;7 unlawful acts against the safety of maritime navigation;8 seizure of aircraft and other crimes related to aviation;9 European Union (EU) corruption crimes;10 crimes within the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court (ICC);11 and specific road transport offenses.12 .... https://trialinternational.org/wp-co...-in-France.pdf She might not have been perfectly safe in France, but I'm willing to bet she'd have been safer in Paris than in New Hampshire if she could have gotten there.
	Last edited by Bob001; 15th July 2020 at 05:32 PM.

15th July 2020, 08:31 PM	#67
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 28,220	I suppose one possibility is that she knows something we don't about what she might have done in France.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)

15th July 2020, 08:32 PM	#68
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 20,589	Originally Posted by Bob001 Like I said, "I suppose it's conceivable, especially in the case of war crimes..." But how often does it actually happen? And under what circumstances? Exhibit A: Roman Polanski. Sounds like it might not apply to run-of-the-mill crimes. https://trialinternational.org/wp-co...-in-France.pdf She might not have been perfectly safe in France, but I'm willing to bet she'd have been safer in Paris than in New Hampshire if she could have gotten there. If she is really rich enough, that may still happen. Vide Carlos Ghosn's escape from Japan.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

15th July 2020, 09:25 PM	#69
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 17,189	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto If she is really rich enough, that may still happen. Vide Carlos Ghosn's escape from Japan. Yes but Ghosn got bail and managed to escape from that by walking out of his house. Escaping from jail and then fleeing the country is a whole different ballgame.
	__________________ I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

15th July 2020, 09:28 PM	#70
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 48,840	The surprise news is that she is apparently married, but won’t name her husband. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...effrey-epstein Where was Prince Andrew last November?
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 Last edited by zooterkin; 15th July 2020 at 09:30 PM.

15th July 2020, 10:22 PM	#72
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 71,033	Originally Posted by zooterkin The surprise news is that she is apparently married, but won’t name her husband. Wha? Isn't it a matter of public record? Isn't there a BDM office (Births Deaths and Marriages - get your mind out of the gutter) that this can be checked up on? A marriage is a legal contract.
	__________________ We will meet them on the beach, we will meet them on the phone hook-ups. - Scott Morrison, probably

15th July 2020, 10:37 PM	#73
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 13,002	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Wha? Isn't it a matter of public record? Isn't there a BDM office (Births Deaths and Marriages - get your mind out of the gutter) that this can be checked up on? A marriage is a legal contract. Where? In the U.S., most birth, marriage and death records are maintained at the local level. You would have to know where she was allegedly married to look at the city or county records there. And they're not entirely public, in the sense that anybody could walk in and say "lemme see." You have to have a reason. I dunno whether she should be believed; she's pretty good at lying.
	Last edited by Bob001; 15th July 2020 at 10:44 PM.

15th July 2020, 10:52 PM	#74
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 71,033	Originally Posted by Bob001 Where? In the U.S., most birth, marriage and death records are maintained at the local level. You would have to know where she was allegedly married to look at the city or county records there. And they're not entirely public, in the sense that anybody could walk in and say "lemme see." You have to have a reason. I dunno whether she should be believed; she's pretty good at lying. Oh of course. I forgot. America.
	__________________ We will meet them on the beach, we will meet them on the phone hook-ups. - Scott Morrison, probably

16th July 2020, 01:18 AM	#75
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 48,840	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Oh of course. I forgot. America. Could be any country in the world, you’d have to know where to start looking even if they did have centralised records.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

16th July 2020, 03:32 AM	#76
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 17,189	Originally Posted by zooterkin Could be any country in the world, you’d have to know where to start looking even if they did have centralised records. Not any country. Here (and in Australia, where Arth comes from) we have a national "Registrar of Births, Deaths and Marriages". If I have authorised access, I could simply look up a person's name and find out where they were born, whether or not they were married, and if so, who they were married to. The whole exercise would take less than five minutes.
	__________________ I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !