Ghislaine Maxwell - Page 5

shuttlt · 14th August 2020, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

A bit off topic of course, but what's the source of the difference? To an untrained observer one would think that "hung" would definitely be the past participle form of "to hang".

The answers I am aware of go back to Old English...

Quote:

a fusion of Old English hon "suspend" (transitive, class VII strong verb; past tense heng, past participle hangen), and Old English hangian "be suspended" (intransitive, weak, past tense hangode); also probably influenced by Old Norse hengja "suspend," and hanga "be suspended."

Quote:

Hung emerged as past participle 16c. in northern England dialect, and hanged endured only in legal language (which tends to be conservative) in reference to capital punishment and in metaphors extended from it (I'll be hanged).

https://www.etymonline.com/word/hang

bruto · 14th August 2020, 08:53 AM

I'm not sure of the etymology here, but my guess is that "hanged" remains special because it describes a narrow subset of hanging. Everything and everyone who is suspended hangs or is hung, but only those killed when suspended by a rope around the neck are also hanged.

Matthew Best · 22nd October 2020, 09:37 AM

The full transcipt of her 2016 deposition is available here:

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-co...ition-2016.pdf

It's mainly her denying everything, but also denying everything in the most evasive and pedantic way imaginable, which makes her seem incredibly guilty IMO. But maybe that's just the way lawyers instructed her, I don't know.

The deposition has many redactions, but then right at the end there is an alphabetical index, so I would imagine that the many references to someone who appears between the word "analyzed" and "angeles" in the index is probably Andrew. And between "depth" and "describe" is, I guess, Dershowitz.

commandlinegamer · 22nd October 2020, 01:32 PM

I sped through the first couple hundred pages, then scooted to the end. No juicy tid-bits as far as I could see. Maybe the NASA announcement will be more exciting.

Vixen · 22nd October 2020, 02:05 PM

Somebody's cracked how you can decode the redacted names simply by looking at the index at the back and matching the said alphabetical letter to the name.

Quote:

It turns out, though, that those redactions are possible to crack. That’s because the deposition—which you can read in full here—includes a complete alphabetized index of the redacted and unredacted words that appear in the document. For example, after cracking the redactions, we know that Maxwell was asked about an email that Dershowitz allegedly sent to Epstein. In that email, Dershowitz reportedly wrote that he was “working on several possible articles about unfairness in the legal process that allows false charges to be inserted into legal documents.”

Here’s how to deduce the redacted words, using former President Bill Clinton as an example.

You can see in the index that a word that falls alphabetically between clients and clock appears on quite a number of pages. From this, we know that the word starts with the letters CL.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-to-crack.html

Seems at least thirty underage women reported Epstein to the police so it will be difficult for Maxwell to persist in her claim she knew nothing about this.

Robin · 22nd October 2020, 02:20 PM

Haven't read the whole thing, but as far as I can tell she is saying these girls just turned up at the door uninvited and barged in.

timhau · 22nd October 2020, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Here’s how to deduce the redacted words, using former President Bill Clinton as an example.

You can see in the index that a word that falls alphabetically between clients and clock appears on quite a number of pages. From this, we know that the word starts with the letters CL.

Clinton's name appears in the text unredacted.

Matthew Best · 23rd October 2020, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Somebody's cracked how you can decode the redacted names simply by looking at the index at the back and matching the said alphabetical letter to the name.

Yes, I did that in the post that included a link to the deposition.

You’re welcome.

Filippo Lippi · 29th December 2020, 07:13 AM

The New York Times tweeted

Quote:

A judge rejected a $28.5 million bail proposal from Ghislaine Maxwell, a companion of Jeffrey Epstein who is charged with contributing to his abuse of teenage girls. She had sought to be freed from what her lawyers called “intolerable” jail conditions.

Minoosh · 1st January 2021, 12:30 PM

$28.5 million bail per NYT - that's the highest bail I've ever heard of. But then she is not a flight risk; she's a flight certainty.

She cites "intolerable" jail conditions. I wonder if she is in the jail general population or in some kind of protection.

smartcooky · 1st January 2021, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

$28.5 million bail per NYT - that's the highest bail I've ever heard of. But then she is not a flight risk; she's a flight certainty.

She cites "intolerable" jail conditions. I wonder if she is in the jail general population or in some kind of protection.

She has unlimited resources, and even then, as you say, is a "flight certainty". No amount of bail will secure her for trial.

As for "intolerable" jail conditions, my heart bleeds ice!

Samson · 2nd January 2021, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

She has unlimited resources, and even then, as you say, is a "flight certainty". No amount of bail will secure her for trial.

As for "intolerable" jail conditions, my heart bleeds ice!

Intolerable jail conditions are often cited. Deserves a thread. Specifics would be helpful, I guess not Scandinavian empathy, but then less demand for jail space up there.

Mike! · 3rd January 2021, 09:57 AM

I thought part of the whole point of jail was that it wasn't intended to be anyplace you really wanted to just go in and hang around*.

*No pun intended, but not really regretted ether.

Darat · 3rd January 2021, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Mike!

I thought part of the whole point of jail was that it wasn't intended to be anyplace you really wanted to just go in and hang around*.

*No pun intended, but not really regretted ether.

Back in the 19th and early 20th century the USA led the way in humane treatment of prisoners, conditions they were kept in and so on. It now appears to be going the opposite direction.

Personally I would prefer prisoners to live in a stable, safe, violence free environment that encourages healthy living such as how to control your anger, how to learn and so on. That way when they leave prison they can rejoin (or I suspect for many join for the first time) mainstream society and enjoy a productive and happy life. (I do also wish for a pony.)

catsmate · 3rd January 2021, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Mike!

I thought part of the whole point of jail was that it wasn't intended to be anyplace you really wanted to just go in and hang around*.
.

She has been convicted of no crimes as yet; ISTR a principle named 'presumption of innocence '.

Though as a general principle humane treatment of prisoners is a better idea for society.

Filippo Lippi · 18th February 2021, 03:19 AM

She's suffering/trying it on [delete as applicable] again

Cavemonster · 18th February 2021, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

$28.5 million bail per NYT - that's the highest bail I've ever heard of. But then she is not a flight risk; she's a flight certainty.

She cites "intolerable" jail conditions. I wonder if she is in the jail general population or in some kind of protection.

I was under the impression that judges had the leeway to deny bail altogether for a high enough flight risk or someone who would endanger the community. I'm curious why the choice of a prohibitively hight bail instead of simply not granting bail.

Matthew Best · 23rd February 2021, 10:52 PM

Maxwell's latest attempt to get bail involves offering to revoke her French and UK citizenship.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...gn-citizenship

Vixen · 24th February 2021, 02:39 AM

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

Maxwell's latest attempt to get bail involves offering to revoke her French and UK citizenship.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...gn-citizenship

Bit of a red herring on her lawyers' part, as both the UK and France have an extradition treaty with the USA so she is hardly likely to flee there. If she flees it'll be to somewhere like Morocco where there is no extradition, or even Israel as her father had a near state funeral there and was a great Zionist.

Personally, she hasn't killed anyone or committed violence, so I sympathise with her being locked up in solitary confinement with hardened criminals.

Sex trafficking is of course a horrendous and heartbreaking crime, I hasten o add.

SuburbanTurkey · 24th February 2021, 05:07 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Bit of a red herring on her lawyers' part, as both the UK and France have an extradition treaty with the USA so she is hardly likely to flee there. If she flees it'll be to somewhere like Morocco where there is no extradition, or even Israel as her father had a near state funeral there and was a great Zionist.

Personally, she hasn't killed anyone or committed violence, so I sympathise with her being locked up in solitary confinement with hardened criminals.

Sex trafficking is of course a horrendous and heartbreaking crime, I hasten o add.

France is pretty famous for not extraditing French nationals back to the US. Fugitive child rapist and occasional film maker Roman Polanski has been living there for decades and is careful not to travel to other countries that might send him back to the US to face justice.

Planigale · 27th February 2021, 04:22 PM

I suspect that even if the prosecution are not really convinced she is a flight risk, being able to keep her (over a year now) in solitary confinement in prison will be part of the negotiations for a plea deal. Plea deals are more likely when the accused are in jail than when out on bail.

smartcooky · 27th February 2021, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by Planigale

I suspect that even if the prosecution are not really convinced she is a flight risk, being able to keep her (over a year now) in solitary confinement in prison will be part of the negotiations for a plea deal. Plea deals are more likely when the accused are in jail than when out on bail.

Otherwise known as, "if you want out, we need names and dates!"

I still think she could put a lot of very powerful people behind bars! Those people will be crapping themselves!

Samson · 27th February 2021, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Otherwise known as, "if you want out, we need names and dates!"

I still think she could put a lot of very powerful people behind bars! Those people will be crapping themselves!

Sadly this never seems to happen.
There is a wealth of expectation but teflon almost always delivers.

Planigale · 28th February 2021, 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

$28.5 million bail per NYT - that's the highest bail I've ever heard of. But then she is not a flight risk; she's a flight certainty.

She cites "intolerable" jail conditions. I wonder if she is in the jail general population or in some kind of protection.

I think because of covid, conditions can be very restricted. No association. Minimal exercise. Meals in cells. Remembering that at this point she is an innocent person. During time on suicide watch lights are kept on 24 hours.

Having read through all this, it seems people are somewhat overstating the ability of non state actors to move a tracked individual out of the US during covid lock down. As said if she had wanted to flee she could have gone to France before all this happened. France would not have extradited her, and the traditional French view of the sort of activities she is accused of would have been a gallic shrug of shoulder and comment on anglo-saxon prudity. Of course for all I know her arrest could have been precipitated by an on-line search for Air France flights.

To add to conspiracy theories, one I am surprised has not been floated with regards to her marriage, does the US still have the rule that spouses can not be required to give evidence against each other? Perhaps the guiltier party is not GM but whoever married her? Perhaps why the husband is willing to put all his assets up to get her out of jail? Of course it could be true love. perhaps keeping her locked up is for her own protection?

Gord_in_Toronto · 29th March 2021, 08:26 PM

More. And more to come?

Ghislaine Maxwell Charged With Sex Trafficking of 14-Year-Old Girl

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/29/n...g-epstein.html

Bob001 · 29th March 2021, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

More. And more to come?
...

Almost certainly.

Quote:

The new indictment also says Mr. Epstein and Ms. Maxwell each encouraged the girl to recruit other young women to provide sexualized massages to Mr. Epstein.

In response, the indictment says, the girl brought multiple women and girls to provide erotic massages for Mr. Epstein, and both she and the people she recruited were paid hundreds of dollars in cash.

smartcooky · 29th March 2021, 10:48 PM

She seems to be a very nasty and vile piece of work. If she is found guilty (which seems very likely) I hope she gets the maximum penalty (35 years) with no remission.

If she thinks she's being hard done by now, then she is going to be in for a very rude shock if she ends up somewhere like Danbury or Hazleton.

Bob001 · 30th March 2021, 11:20 PM

New suit says Epstein threatened to feed one of his victims to alligators.

Quote:

A new lawsuit alleges that Jeffrey Epstein raped and sexually abused a woman who he threatened to feed to alligators, as well as have her 8-year-old son deported, if she shared her experience with anyone.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/jeffrey-e...223709460.html

Vixen · 31st March 2021, 02:09 AM

No being funny but 35 years for procuring prostitutes for the purpose of sex seems a bit harsh to me. OK, so several were between the ages of 14 to 17 but they all seem to have gone along to Epstein's mansion willingly and returned time and again for the $200 per session pay out. Yes, it is a heinous crime to procure underage persons for prostitution but is it really on a par with murder in terms of sentencing?

Darat · 31st March 2021, 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

No being funny but 35 years for procuring prostitutes for the purpose of sex seems a bit harsh to me. OK, so several were between the ages of 14 to 17 but they all seem to have gone along to Epstein's mansion willingly and returned time and again for the $200 per session pay out. Yes, it is a heinous crime to procure underage persons for prostitution but is it really on a par with murder in terms of sentencing?

It’s worse.

smartcooky · 31st March 2021, 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

No being funny but 35 years for procuring prostitutes for the purpose of sex seems a bit harsh to me. OK, so several were between the ages of 14 to 17 but they all seem to have gone along to Epstein's mansion willingly and returned time and again for the $200 per session pay out. Yes, it is a heinous crime to procure underage persons for prostitution but is it really on a par with murder in terms of sentencing?

Yup!

Originally Posted by Darat

It’s worse.

Indeed, that's the maximum, and what Maxwell did is about as bad as it gets as far as procuring minors for sex.

It wasn't just a few, it was dozens over a long period. She was the organizer of a sex-trafficking, sex slavery ring - she procured three girls a day for Epstein alone, girls as young as 13. If you aren't going to sentence the maximum for the worst examples in a given class of crime, what is the point of the maximum?

She also didn't just procure girls, she sexually assaulted them as well, under the guise of "training" them.

Here, have a read...if you have the stomach for it!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...effrey-epstein

Of course, she maybe could mitigate that if she rats out everyone she knows that "benefited" from Epstein's vile predilection for under-aged girls. That 35 years should absolutely be held over her head like the proverbial Sword of Damocles.

jimbob · 31st March 2021, 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

No being funny but 35 years for procuring prostitutes for the purpose of sex seems a bit harsh to me. OK, so several were between the ages of 14 to 17 but they all seem to have gone along to Epstein's mansion willingly and returned time and again for the $200 per session pay out. Yes, it is a heinous crime to procure underage persons for prostitution but is it really on a par with murder in terms of sentencing?

What Darat and Smartcooky said.

Epstein and Maxewell were slave traders. Literally.

Samson · 31st March 2021, 04:13 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

No being funny but 35 years for procuring prostitutes for the purpose of sex seems a bit harsh to me. OK, so several were between the ages of 14 to 17 but they all seem to have gone along to Epstein's mansion willingly and returned time and again for the $200 per session pay out. Yes, it is a heinous crime to procure underage persons for prostitution but is it really on a par with murder in terms of sentencing?

No it is not as bad as murder.
Refer to Planigale's Gallic shrug post for another shading. I am surprised that this thread draws out such punishing vehemence in male posters.

smartcooky · 31st March 2021, 04:17 AM

Originally Posted by Samson

No it is not as bad as murder.
Refer to Planigale's Gallic shrug post for another shading. I am surprised that this thread draws out such punishing vehemence in male posters.

Do you think serial rapists should be jailed, even though they don't kill anyone

Just asking!

Samson · 31st March 2021, 04:27 AM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Do you think serial rapists should be jailed, even though they don't kill anyone

Just asking!

Yes they should be.
The comparison is with actual killing and sentencing and I thought Vixen was right to draw a distinction. Maxwell was way off the rails in a raft of ways but let us see what malevolence can be truly established.

zooterkin · 31st March 2021, 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

No being funny but 35 years for procuring prostitutes for the purpose of sex seems a bit harsh to me. OK, so several were between the ages of 14 to 17 but they all seem to have gone along to Epstein's mansion willingly and returned time and again for the $200 per session pay out. Yes, it is a heinous crime to procure underage persons for prostitution but is it really on a par with murder in terms of sentencing?

How does it compare with the maximum sentence for murder?

Darat · 31st March 2021, 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by Samson

No it is not as bad as murder.
Refer to Planigale's Gallic shrug post for another shading. I am surprised that this thread draws out such punishing vehemence in male posters.

A person murdered can suffer no longer, a person sexually abused, raped, or sold into any form of slavery has to live with that for the rest of their life.

3point14 · 31st March 2021, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

A person murdered can suffer no longer, a person sexually abused, raped, or sold into any form of slavery has to live with that for the rest of their life.

It's very difficult to draw any straight lines between one crime and another, it's all a fudge really.

In this instance the sheer numbers of victims involved have to have an effect, don't they? If she'd done it once then 35 years might seem a little excessive. But 35 years is way less than a year per victim isn't it?

Darat · 31st March 2021, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

It's very difficult to draw any straight lines between one crime and another, it's all a fudge really.

I agree but it does seem a common opinion that murder is the worse of the worse crime.

Originally Posted by 3point14

In this instance the sheer numbers of victims involved have to have an effect, don't they? If she'd done it once then 35 years might seem a little excessive. But 35 years is way less than a year per victim isn't it?

Agreed.

Bob001 · 31st March 2021, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

No being funny but 35 years for procuring prostitutes for the purpose of sex seems a bit harsh to me. OK, so several were between the ages of 14 to 17 but they all seem to have gone along to Epstein's mansion willingly and returned time and again for the $200 per session pay out.
.....

The victims were not prostitutes. They were too young to consent, and the evidence is overwhelming that they were intimidated and confused by master predators. You are blaming the victims in the worst way.

14th August 2020, 07:38 AM	#161
shuttlt Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,314	Originally Posted by Belz... A bit off topic of course, but what's the source of the difference? To an untrained observer one would think that "hung" would definitely be the past participle form of "to hang". The answers I am aware of go back to Old English... Quote: a fusion of Old English hon "suspend" (transitive, class VII strong verb; past tense heng, past participle hangen), and Old English hangian "be suspended" (intransitive, weak, past tense hangode); also probably influenced by Old Norse hengja "suspend," and hanga "be suspended." Quote: Hung emerged as past participle 16c. in northern England dialect, and hanged endured only in legal language (which tends to be conservative) in reference to capital punishment and in metaphors extended from it (I'll be hanged). https://www.etymonline.com/word/hang
shuttlt Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,314

14th August 2020, 08:53 AM	#162
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 28,220	I'm not sure of the etymology here, but my guess is that "hanged" remains special because it describes a narrow subset of hanging. Everything and everyone who is suspended hangs or is hung, but only those killed when suspended by a rope around the neck are also hanged.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)

22nd October 2020, 01:32 PM	#164
commandlinegamer Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Mazes of Menace Posts: 9,098	I sped through the first couple hundred pages, then scooted to the end. No juicy tid-bits as far as I could see. Maybe the NASA announcement will be more exciting.
	__________________ He bade me take any rug in the house.

22nd October 2020, 02:05 PM	#165
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 21,591	Somebody's cracked how you can decode the redacted names simply by looking at the index at the back and matching the said alphabetical letter to the name. Quote: It turns out, though, that those redactions are possible to crack. That’s because the deposition—which you can read in full here—includes a complete alphabetized index of the redacted and unredacted words that appear in the document. For example, after cracking the redactions, we know that Maxwell was asked about an email that Dershowitz allegedly sent to Epstein. In that email, Dershowitz reportedly wrote that he was “working on several possible articles about unfairness in the legal process that allows false charges to be inserted into legal documents.” Here’s how to deduce the redacted words, using former President Bill Clinton as an example. You can see in the index that a word that falls alphabetically between clients and clock appears on quite a number of pages. From this, we know that the word starts with the letters CL. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-to-crack.html Seems at least thirty underage women reported Epstein to the police so it will be difficult for Maxwell to persist in her claim she knew nothing about this.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

22nd October 2020, 02:20 PM	#166
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 12,881	Haven't read the whole thing, but as far as I can tell she is saying these girls just turned up at the door uninvited and barged in.
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

22nd October 2020, 09:37 AM	#163
Matthew Best Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 8,445	The full transcipt of her 2016 deposition is available here: https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-co...ition-2016.pdf It's mainly her denying everything, but also denying everything in the most evasive and pedantic way imaginable, which makes her seem incredibly guilty IMO. But maybe that's just the way lawyers instructed her, I don't know. The deposition has many redactions, but then right at the end there is an alphabetical index, so I would imagine that the many references to someone who appears between the word "analyzed" and "angeles" in the index is probably Andrew. And between "depth" and "describe" is, I guess, Dershowitz.

22nd October 2020, 09:33 PM	#167
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I? Posts: 14,513	Quote: Here’s how to deduce the redacted words, using former President Bill Clinton as an example. You can see in the index that a word that falls alphabetically between clients and clock appears on quite a number of pages. From this, we know that the word starts with the letters CL. Clinton's name appears in the text unredacted.
	__________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

23rd October 2020, 12:37 PM	#168
Matthew Best Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 8,445	Originally Posted by Vixen Somebody's cracked how you can decode the redacted names simply by looking at the index at the back and matching the said alphabetical letter to the name. Yes, I did that in the post that included a link to the deposition. You’re welcome.

29th December 2020, 07:13 AM	#169
Filippo Lippi Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,433	The New York Times tweeted Quote: A judge rejected a $28.5 million bail proposal from Ghislaine Maxwell, a companion of Jeffrey Epstein who is charged with contributing to his abuse of teenage girls. She had sought to be freed from what her lawyers called “intolerable” jail conditions.
	__________________ You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis

1st January 2021, 12:30 PM	#170
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,330	$28.5 million bail per NYT - that's the highest bail I've ever heard of. But then she is not a flight risk; she's a flight certainty. She cites "intolerable" jail conditions. I wonder if she is in the jail general population or in some kind of protection.
	Last edited by Minoosh; 1st January 2021 at 12:36 PM.

1st January 2021, 02:04 PM	#171
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 17,187	Originally Posted by Minoosh $28.5 million bail per NYT - that's the highest bail I've ever heard of. But then she is not a flight risk; she's a flight certainty. She cites "intolerable" jail conditions. I wonder if she is in the jail general population or in some kind of protection. She has unlimited resources, and even then, as you say, is a "flight certainty". No amount of bail will secure her for trial. As for "intolerable" jail conditions, my heart bleeds ice!
	__________________ I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

2nd January 2021, 01:34 PM	#172
Samson Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 9,485	Originally Posted by smartcooky She has unlimited resources, and even then, as you say, is a "flight certainty". No amount of bail will secure her for trial. As for "intolerable" jail conditions, my heart bleeds ice! Intolerable jail conditions are often cited. Deserves a thread. Specifics would be helpful, I guess not Scandinavian empathy, but then less demand for jail space up there.
Samson Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 9,485

3rd January 2021, 09:57 AM	#173
Mike! Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it! Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not! Posts: 40,654	I thought part of the whole point of jail was that it wasn't intended to be anyplace you really wanted to just go in and hang around. No pun intended, but not really regretted ether.
	__________________ "Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes... Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes." Last edited by Mike!; 3rd January 2021 at 09:58 AM.

3rd January 2021, 10:17 AM	#174
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,813	Originally Posted by Mike! I thought part of the whole point of jail was that it wasn't intended to be anyplace you really wanted to just go in and hang around. No pun intended, but not really regretted ether. Back in the 19th and early 20th century the USA led the way in humane treatment of prisoners, conditions they were kept in and so on. It now appears to be going the opposite direction. Personally I would prefer prisoners to live in a stable, safe, violence free environment that encourages healthy living such as how to control your anger, how to learn and so on. That way when they leave prison they can rejoin (or I suspect for many join for the first time) mainstream society and enjoy a productive and happy life. (I do also wish for a pony.)
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

3rd January 2021, 11:37 AM	#175
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 24,328	Originally Posted by Mike! I thought part of the whole point of jail was that it wasn't intended to be anyplace you really wanted to just go in and hang around*. . She has been convicted of no crimes as yet; ISTR a principle named 'presumption of innocence '. Though as a general principle humane treatment of prisoners is a better idea for society.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

18th February 2021, 03:19 AM	#176
Filippo Lippi Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,433	She's suffering/trying it on [delete as applicable] again
	__________________ You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis

18th February 2021, 06:24 AM	#177
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,660	Originally Posted by Minoosh $28.5 million bail per NYT - that's the highest bail I've ever heard of. But then she is not a flight risk; she's a flight certainty. She cites "intolerable" jail conditions. I wonder if she is in the jail general population or in some kind of protection. I was under the impression that judges had the leeway to deny bail altogether for a high enough flight risk or someone who would endanger the community. I'm curious why the choice of a prohibitively hight bail instead of simply not granting bail.
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,660	__________________ The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON

23rd February 2021, 10:52 PM	#178
Matthew Best Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 8,445	Maxwell's latest attempt to get bail involves offering to revoke her French and UK citizenship. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...gn-citizenship

24th February 2021, 02:39 AM	#179
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 21,591	Originally Posted by Matthew Best Maxwell's latest attempt to get bail involves offering to revoke her French and UK citizenship. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...gn-citizenship Bit of a red herring on her lawyers' part, as both the UK and France have an extradition treaty with the USA so she is hardly likely to flee there. If she flees it'll be to somewhere like Morocco where there is no extradition, or even Israel as her father had a near state funeral there and was a great Zionist. Personally, she hasn't killed anyone or committed violence, so I sympathise with her being locked up in solitary confinement with hardened criminals. Sex trafficking is of course a horrendous and heartbreaking crime, I hasten o add.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

24th February 2021, 05:07 AM	#180
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,529	Originally Posted by Vixen Bit of a red herring on her lawyers' part, as both the UK and France have an extradition treaty with the USA so she is hardly likely to flee there. If she flees it'll be to somewhere like Morocco where there is no extradition, or even Israel as her father had a near state funeral there and was a great Zionist. Personally, she hasn't killed anyone or committed violence, so I sympathise with her being locked up in solitary confinement with hardened criminals. Sex trafficking is of course a horrendous and heartbreaking crime, I hasten o add. France is pretty famous for not extraditing French nationals back to the US. Fugitive child rapist and occasional film maker Roman Polanski has been living there for decades and is careful not to travel to other countries that might send him back to the US to face justice.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

27th February 2021, 04:22 PM	#181
Planigale Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: 49 North Posts: 4,704	I suspect that even if the prosecution are not really convinced she is a flight risk, being able to keep her (over a year now) in solitary confinement in prison will be part of the negotiations for a plea deal. Plea deals are more likely when the accused are in jail than when out on bail.

27th February 2021, 10:09 PM	#182
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 17,187	Originally Posted by Planigale I suspect that even if the prosecution are not really convinced she is a flight risk, being able to keep her (over a year now) in solitary confinement in prison will be part of the negotiations for a plea deal. Plea deals are more likely when the accused are in jail than when out on bail. Otherwise known as, "if you want out, we need names and dates!" I still think she could put a lot of very powerful people behind bars! Those people will be crapping themselves!
	__________________ I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

27th February 2021, 11:33 PM	#183
Samson Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 9,485	Originally Posted by smartcooky Otherwise known as, "if you want out, we need names and dates!" I still think she could put a lot of very powerful people behind bars! Those people will be crapping themselves! Sadly this never seems to happen. There is a wealth of expectation but teflon almost always delivers.
Samson Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 9,485

28th February 2021, 02:47 AM	#184
Planigale Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: 49 North Posts: 4,704	Originally Posted by Minoosh $28.5 million bail per NYT - that's the highest bail I've ever heard of. But then she is not a flight risk; she's a flight certainty. She cites "intolerable" jail conditions. I wonder if she is in the jail general population or in some kind of protection. I think because of covid, conditions can be very restricted. No association. Minimal exercise. Meals in cells. Remembering that at this point she is an innocent person. During time on suicide watch lights are kept on 24 hours. Having read through all this, it seems people are somewhat overstating the ability of non state actors to move a tracked individual out of the US during covid lock down. As said if she had wanted to flee she could have gone to France before all this happened. France would not have extradited her, and the traditional French view of the sort of activities she is accused of would have been a gallic shrug of shoulder and comment on anglo-saxon prudity. Of course for all I know her arrest could have been precipitated by an on-line search for Air France flights. To add to conspiracy theories, one I am surprised has not been floated with regards to her marriage, does the US still have the rule that spouses can not be required to give evidence against each other? Perhaps the guiltier party is not GM but whoever married her? Perhaps why the husband is willing to put all his assets up to get her out of jail? Of course it could be true love. perhaps keeping her locked up is for her own protection?

29th March 2021, 08:26 PM	#185
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 20,589	More. And more to come? Ghislaine Maxwell Charged With Sex Trafficking of 14-Year-Old Girl https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/29/n...g-epstein.html
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

29th March 2021, 08:49 PM	#186
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 13,002	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto More. And more to come? ... Almost certainly. Quote: The new indictment also says Mr. Epstein and Ms. Maxwell each encouraged the girl to recruit other young women to provide sexualized massages to Mr. Epstein. In response, the indictment says, the girl brought multiple women and girls to provide erotic massages for Mr. Epstein, and both she and the people she recruited were paid hundreds of dollars in cash.

29th March 2021, 10:48 PM	#187
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 17,187	She seems to be a very nasty and vile piece of work. If she is found guilty (which seems very likely) I hope she gets the maximum penalty (35 years) with no remission. If she thinks she's being hard done by now, then she is going to be in for a very rude shock if she ends up somewhere like Danbury or Hazleton.
	__________________ I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

30th March 2021, 11:20 PM	#188
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 13,002	New suit says Epstein threatened to feed one of his victims to alligators. Quote: A new lawsuit alleges that Jeffrey Epstein raped and sexually abused a woman who he threatened to feed to alligators, as well as have her 8-year-old son deported, if she shared her experience with anyone. https://www.yahoo.com/news/jeffrey-e...223709460.html

31st March 2021, 02:09 AM	#189
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 21,591	No being funny but 35 years for procuring prostitutes for the purpose of sex seems a bit harsh to me. OK, so several were between the ages of 14 to 17 but they all seem to have gone along to Epstein's mansion willingly and returned time and again for the $200 per session pay out. Yes, it is a heinous crime to procure underage persons for prostitution but is it really on a par with murder in terms of sentencing?
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

31st March 2021, 02:33 AM	#190
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,813	Originally Posted by Vixen No being funny but 35 years for procuring prostitutes for the purpose of sex seems a bit harsh to me. OK, so several were between the ages of 14 to 17 but they all seem to have gone along to Epstein's mansion willingly and returned time and again for the $200 per session pay out. Yes, it is a heinous crime to procure underage persons for prostitution but is it really on a par with murder in terms of sentencing? It’s worse.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

31st March 2021, 02:47 AM	#191
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 17,187	Originally Posted by Vixen No being funny but 35 years for procuring prostitutes for the purpose of sex seems a bit harsh to me. OK, so several were between the ages of 14 to 17 but they all seem to have gone along to Epstein's mansion willingly and returned time and again for the $200 per session pay out. Yes, it is a heinous crime to procure underage persons for prostitution but is it really on a par with murder in terms of sentencing? Yup! Originally Posted by Darat It’s worse. Indeed, that's the maximum, and what Maxwell did is about as bad as it gets as far as procuring minors for sex. It wasn't just a few, it was dozens over a long period. She was the organizer of a sex-trafficking, sex slavery ring - she procured three girls a day for Epstein alone, girls as young as 13. If you aren't going to sentence the maximum for the worst examples in a given class of crime, what is the point of the maximum? She also didn't just procure girls, she sexually assaulted them as well, under the guise of "training" them. Here, have a read...if you have the stomach for it! https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...effrey-epstein Of course, she maybe could mitigate that if she rats out everyone she knows that "benefited" from Epstein's vile predilection for under-aged girls. That 35 years should absolutely be held over her head like the proverbial Sword of Damocles.
	__________________ I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! ! Last edited by smartcooky; 31st March 2021 at 02:49 AM.

31st March 2021, 03:29 AM	#192
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,905	Originally Posted by Vixen No being funny but 35 years for procuring prostitutes for the purpose of sex seems a bit harsh to me. OK, so several were between the ages of 14 to 17 but they all seem to have gone along to Epstein's mansion willingly and returned time and again for the $200 per session pay out. Yes, it is a heinous crime to procure underage persons for prostitution but is it really on a par with murder in terms of sentencing? What Darat and Smartcooky said. Epstein and Maxewell were slave traders. Literally.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

31st March 2021, 04:13 AM	#193
Samson Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 9,485	Originally Posted by Vixen No being funny but 35 years for procuring prostitutes for the purpose of sex seems a bit harsh to me. OK, so several were between the ages of 14 to 17 but they all seem to have gone along to Epstein's mansion willingly and returned time and again for the $200 per session pay out. Yes, it is a heinous crime to procure underage persons for prostitution but is it really on a par with murder in terms of sentencing? No it is not as bad as murder. Refer to Planigale's Gallic shrug post for another shading. I am surprised that this thread draws out such punishing vehemence in male posters.
Samson Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 9,485

31st March 2021, 04:17 AM	#194
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 17,187	Originally Posted by Samson No it is not as bad as murder. Refer to Planigale's Gallic shrug post for another shading. I am surprised that this thread draws out such punishing vehemence in male posters. Do you think serial rapists should be jailed, even though they don't kill anyone Just asking!
	__________________ I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

31st March 2021, 04:27 AM	#195
Samson Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 9,485	Originally Posted by smartcooky Do you think serial rapists should be jailed, even though they don't kill anyone Just asking! Yes they should be. The comparison is with actual killing and sentencing and I thought Vixen was right to draw a distinction. Maxwell was way off the rails in a raft of ways but let us see what malevolence can be truly established.
Samson Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 9,485