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Tags Ghislaine Maxwell , Jeffrey Epstein , sex trafficking

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Old 5th April 2021, 03:07 PM   #321
Vixen
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Belz... has it right
You do understand that her guilt is not dependent on conviction, right? I mean, the odds of her being innocent, given what we know, are pretty slim.

Of course her guilt in criminal law is dependent on conviction. Yes, probable cause, based on the depositions of between six and many other accusers means she was rightly charged with the offences. It remains to be seen how much she is to blame for Epstein's actions.
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Old 5th April 2021, 03:13 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Stop talking nonsense. I did not refer to pyramid selling, I chose a Sex Ponzi analogy for Epstein's method of recruiting prostitutes and it is tough if you do not like it. I choose my analogies, not you. Please concentrate on the topic instead of dreaming up phoney arguments.
A Ponzi scheme has a specific definition. It is a specific kind of financial fraud. It doesn't apply to any other kind of fraud or crime. You can't use a term incorrectly and then get all indignant when you are called out on your error.
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Old 5th April 2021, 03:14 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Wrong.

Just stop ******* deliberately misquoting and lying about what other posters say!! Stop it!!!!

Go back and READ where you got that from.... and be sure to read and understand the last line.... ALL of the last line!!

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post13443588
I heard right the first time. Even if these underage girls were the victims of rape by predators, it still has to be proven that Maxwell was responsible for it.

AIUI only four of the accusers in the case were underage, with hundreds of others being of age. So not quite as sensationalist as some would like to have us believe, as far as the sex part of it goes.
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Old 5th April 2021, 03:17 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
A Ponzi scheme has a specific definition. It is a specific kind of financial fraud. It doesn't apply to any other kind of fraud or crime. You can't use a term incorrectly and then get all indignant when you are called out on your error.
Erm, it is an analogy. Writers use analogies and metaphors all the time and they do not require permission. I didn't say a 'Ponzi scheme as defined by the Financial Dictionary' I said 'Sex Ponzi'. Not 'Financial Ponzi'. What is there to argue about?
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Old 5th April 2021, 03:32 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Erm, it is an analogy. Writers use analogies and metaphors all the time and they do not require permission. I didn't say a 'Ponzi scheme as defined by the Financial Dictionary' I said 'Sex Ponzi'. Not 'Financial Ponzi'. What is there to argue about?
There is no analogy. In a Ponzi scheme new money from late investors is used to pay "returns" to early investors. It lasts until the supply of new investors runs out. In your "analogy," what are the returns, who is paying them, and who is receiving them?
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Old 5th April 2021, 03:38 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
There is no analogy. In a Ponzi scheme new money from late investors is used to pay "returns" to early investors. It lasts until the supply of new investors runs out. In your "analogy," what are the returns, who is paying them, and who is receiving them?
As I said in my post, which you clearly have not read, I said I was specifically referring to the sex workers going away and recruiting more sex workers. That was the sole extent of it. Then someone went off on a derail of pyramid selling.

If people do not understand how recruits recruiting more recruits multiplies exponentially, then I am sorry that the reference to 'Sex Ponzi' was not obvious and has caused great bewilderment to some.
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Old 5th April 2021, 03:43 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As I said in my post, which you clearly have not read, I said I was specifically referring to the sex workers going away and recruiting more sex workers.
.....
That's exactly what a pyramid scheme is. In Amway etc., sellers recruit more sellers who recruit more sellers who recruit more sellers, and sellers at every level take a cut of the lower level sales. In a Ponzi scheme "investors" don't recruit other investors and take their money. You are using terms that you don't understand.

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Old 5th April 2021, 03:52 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
That's exactly what a pyramid scheme is. In Amway etc., sellers recruit more sellers who recruit more sellers who recruit more sellers, and sellers at every level take a cut of the lower level sales. In a Ponzi scheme "investors" don't recruit other investors and take their money. You are using terms that you don't understand.
I have sat CPA-equivalent exams in financial corruption so you are preaching to and patronising the wrong person, here.
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Old 5th April 2021, 04:11 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Stop talking nonsense. I did not refer to pyramid selling
Uh-huh:

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Think of a triangle. Epstein/Maxwell at the top, Maxwell's recruits next. Each of these recruits recruits their friends/their friends recruit their friends, and so on.
Sure, that doesn't sound like a pyramid at all!

Quote:
I chose a Sex Ponzi analogy
No, you didn't. You didn't undertstand Ponzi schemes nor did you understand that they aren't pyramid schemes.

Quote:
I choose my analogies, not you.
Those weren't analogies,
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.


Quote:
Please concentrate on the topic instead of dreaming up phoney arguments.
I am addressing something that YOU said, and that I just quoted! Explain how I dreamed up the quote there.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You are lying. I did not say she was innocent.
I didn't say you did.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.


Quote:
For me, objectivity is all


Say that again, so I can believe it.

Quote:
Your claim that you know all about the case cannot be true because you have yet to hear the defence.
You are lying. Quote me saying that I know all about this case.

Quote:
Of course her guilt in criminal law is dependent on conviction.
You are adding words that weren't there in my post. Another dishonesty. I said "guilt". I didn't say "in criminal law". I don't know why so many posters here think manipulating words is a good way to make an argument.

Quote:
I have sat CPA-equivalent exams in financial corruption so you are preaching to and patronising the wrong person, here.
That means exactly nothing, especially since the evidence -- that you don't understand these terms -- is evident here and elsewhere. Your credentials are irrelevant in the face of this.
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Old 5th April 2021, 11:27 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Your credentials are irrelevant in the face of this.
Alleged credentials.
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Old 6th April 2021, 01:31 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I heard right the first time.
No, you are lying.. again

go back that check my post AND READ THE LAST ******* LINE PROPERLY!!
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Old 6th April 2021, 01:36 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
That's exactly what a pyramid scheme is. In Amway etc., sellers recruit more sellers who recruit more sellers who recruit more sellers, and sellers at every level take a cut of the lower level sales. In a Ponzi scheme "investors" don't recruit other investors and take their money. You are using terms that you don't understand.
No, a pyramid implies everybody recruits an equal number of other recruits. In Epstein's case, some may have recruited hundreds, like Giuffre, others may have recruited a dozen, some three or four, some one, some, none at all.

You clearly do not understand analogy and metaphor. Maybe you should read more.
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Old 6th April 2021, 01:38 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I have sat CPA-equivalent exams in financial corruption
Bwahahaha! Did you pass?

I ask that, because someone who has "sat CPA-equivalent exams in financial corruption" and passed, ought to know the difference between a Ponzi scheme and a Pyramid selling scheme, and you clearly do not!
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Old 6th April 2021, 01:38 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Alleged credentials.
Still bitter?
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Old 6th April 2021, 01:40 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, a pyramid implies everybody recruits an equal number of other recruits..
Complete rubbish! There is no such constraint.

Each level of a Pyramid selling scheme can have an unlimited number of people provided that each lower level have much greater number than the one above it

For someone who claims to have "sat CPA-equivalent exams in financial corruption" your level of understanding is laughable.
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Old 6th April 2021, 01:45 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Bwahahaha! Did you pass?

I ask that, because someone who has "sat CPA-equivalent exams in financial corruption" and passed, ought to know the difference between a Ponzi scheme and a Pyramid selling scheme, and you clearly do not!
I am a professional accountant by trade. I have caught at least two high level embezzlers in my career. I saw the play Enron at the Tricycle Theatre and read the book. I followed the Madoff trial. I saw Wolf of Wall Street. You are devoid of common sense if you think Epstein recruited sex workers like being at a tupperware party where you sell kitsch to six friends and they go away and sell to six of their friends. No, this was far more stochastic and poisson-shaped than any orderly pyramid.

If you can't grasp the method by which Epstein recruited I can't help you any further, analogy or no analogy, metaphor or no.
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Old 6th April 2021, 02:08 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I saw the play Enron at the Tricycle Theatre and read the book. I saw Wolf of Wall Street.
You just can't argue with credentials like these.

Sorry, alleged credentials.
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Old 6th April 2021, 02:24 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am a professional accountant by trade.
Appeal to authority fallacy

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I have caught at least two high level embezzlers in my career.
Another appeal to authority fallacy

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I saw the play Enron at the Tricycle Theatre and read the book.
Good for you... but irrelevant!

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I followed the Madoff trial.
Again, good for you, but irrelevant!


Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I saw Wolf of Wall Street.
And again, good for you, but irrelevant!

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You are devoid of common sense if you think Epstein recruited sex workers like being at a tupperware party where you sell kitsch to six friends and they go away and sell to six of their friends.
Now you are describing multi-level marketing... which is legal, and not a pyramid scheme (which is not legal). You claim to be an accountant, but you don't know the difference between a pyramid scheme, and multi level marketing. I'm not surprised.

No-one (me included) has ever claimed Epstein's outfit was like a Tupperware party.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, this was far more stochastic and poisson-shaped than any orderly pyramid.
Irrelevant!

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If you can't grasp the method by which Epstein recruited I can't help you any further, analogy or no analogy, metaphor or no.
Oh, I understand 100% how Epstein's scheme worked (at least as far as we are able to see into it without further information... and it was nothing, repeat NOTHING like a Ponzi scheme. Your claim to that effect is complete and utter bollocks.
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Old 6th April 2021, 02:26 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
You just can't argue with credentials like these.

Sorry, alleged credentials.
Hang on a moment are you saying my claim to be a lunar expert isn’t kosher?

I’ll have you know I’ve watched every episode of Space 1999!
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Old 6th April 2021, 02:42 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You do understand that her guilt is not dependent on conviction, right? I mean, the odds of her being innocent, given what we know, are pretty slim.

Of course her guilt in criminal law is dependent on conviction. Yes, probable cause, based on the depositions of between six and many other accusers means she was rightly charged with the offences. It remains to be seen how much she is to blame for Epstein's actions.
And what has that to do with whether or not Maxwell was actually responsible for raping* multiple children, and enabling the rape of many more?


*And given the plausible claims of violent coercion - any question about age of consent is actually a red herring.

ETA: Unless there is some utterly astounding revelation - for example a body double or something equally implausible, there's enough information to say she's guilty of rape and slavery
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Old 6th April 2021, 04:00 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You have zero understanding of criminal law and are just here to take the p!ss.
WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT CRIMINAL LAW. I'm talking about whether the person actually committed the deeds they are accused of, regardless of how a jury finds her. How can you possibly be so wrong about everything?

As for taking the piss, you're just angry that I don't take your lies at face value, and you have no argument.
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Old 6th April 2021, 04:14 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, a pyramid implies everybody recruits an equal number of other recruits.
No it doesn't. They usually do, but there's no reason why the number of recruits couldn't change depending on one's level.

Quote:
You clearly do not understand analogy and metaphor.
Said by the person who doesn't understand that what she did was not an analogy.
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Old 6th April 2021, 04:17 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am a professional accountant by trade. I have caught at least two high level embezzlers in my career. I saw the play Enron at the Tricycle Theatre and read the book. I followed the Madoff trial. I saw Wolf of Wall Street.
So part of your expertise on criminal law is that you saw a movie, saw a piece of theatre, read a book and 'followed' a trial?

Wow, I apologise for everything I said. Clearly you are a peerless master.

Oh, wait. None of these has anything to do with understanding criminal law.
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Old 6th April 2021, 04:32 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Hang on a moment are you saying my claim to be a lunar expert isn’t kosher?

I’ll have you know I’ve watched every episode of Space 1999!
I have you beat. I also watched Apollo 13!

I also read some wiki articles about the moon, and my parents saw the moon landing. You can't beat that.
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Old 6th April 2021, 04:46 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I have you beat. I also watched Apollo 13!

I also read some wiki articles about the moon, and my parents saw the moon landing. You can't beat that.

Oh yes I can... I SAW the moon landings... all six of them

So there, take that !
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Old 6th April 2021, 04:48 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Oh yes I can... I SAW the moon landings... all six of them

So there, take that !
Pfft. That's direct experience. Mine is deferred! That's even better.
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Old 6th April 2021, 04:49 AM   #347
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Hmmm... deferred experience? Is that anything like "deferred success"?
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Old 6th April 2021, 04:52 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Hmmm... deferred experience? Is that anything like "deferred success"
It's exactly like that. Remember, the least worthy my expertise is to actual experts, the better it is, because those experts are all corrupt anyway.
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Old 6th April 2021, 05:21 AM   #349
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Am I right in saying a pyramid selling scheme is a specific type of Ponzi scheme, in that it relies on new recruits paying older ones? Or are they two completely different things?

Either way, the terms are not interchangeable.
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Old 6th April 2021, 05:27 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Oh yes I can... I SAW the moon landings... all six of them

So there, take that !
A former colleague is related by marriage to Michael Collins, and her mum has a photo from inside the Families' briefing for the Apollo 11 mission, which we think is pretty cool
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http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 6th April 2021, 05:29 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Am I right in saying a pyramid selling scheme is a specific type of Ponzi scheme, in that it relies on new recruits paying older ones? Or are they two completely different things?

Either way, the terms are not interchangeable.
It also has little to do with credible allegations that Maxwell herself raped several of the children. Nor that she and Epstein used violence or threats of violence against them.
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OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 6th April 2021, 05:45 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
A former colleague is related by marriage to Michael Collins, and her mum has a photo from inside the Families' briefing for the Apollo 11 mission, which we think is pretty cool
In that case I bow to your superior expertise.
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Old 6th April 2021, 06:55 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
You just can't argue with credentials like these.

Sorry, alleged credentials.
And don't forget Rogue Trader with Nick Leeson.
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Old 6th April 2021, 06:57 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
In that case I bow to your superior expertise.
Au contraire, surely that makes me (marginally) less well qualified given the (for want of a better word) logic of this?
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OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 6th April 2021, 07:00 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Appeal to authority fallacy



Another appeal to authority fallacy



Good for you... but irrelevant!



Again, good for you, but irrelevant!




And again, good for you, but irrelevant!



Now you are describing multi-level marketing... which is legal, and not a pyramid scheme (which is not legal). You claim to be an accountant, but you don't know the difference between a pyramid scheme, and multi level marketing. I'm not surprised.

No-one (me included) has ever claimed Epstein's outfit was like a Tupperware party.



Irrelevant!



Oh, I understand 100% how Epstein's scheme worked (at least as far as we are able to see into it without further information... and it was nothing, repeat NOTHING like a Ponzi scheme. Your claim to that effect is complete and utter bollocks.

Sex Ponzi as an analogy.

Individuals that engage in a Sex Ponzi analogy focus all of their energy into attracting new Johns/clients to make investments in your Sex Ponzi. This new income is used to pay the original sex workers their returns, marked as a profit – (which is huge compared to what the sex workers are paid and what the Sex Ponzi organiser takes from their clients) - from a legitimate transaction from, for example, buying a ticket to an ‘exclusive event’.

An analogy is a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

What is an example of an analogy?

An analogy is saying something is like something else to make some sort of explanatory point. For example, “Life is like a box of chocolates—you never know what you're gonna get.”

Epstein/Maxwell Sex Ponzi Analogy

Epstein invests in some sex workers. He likes variety and at least three sessions a day for himself. The other stipulation is that they must look young. In order to keep up demand, Maxwell offers the girls a payment (for them, a generous one) for recruiting amongst their friends. So the girls recruit their friends in exchange for cash payment.

However, the limitations are:

• The number of girls Epstein can be serviced by in one day/one week/one month. Let’s say, twenty a week and 80 a month. Over three months that is either 240 different girls, a combination of different girls and the same girl, as no one girl is available three times a day for six days a week, nor does Epstein want the same girl more than a few times.
• The girls’ age. Once a girl starts looking like 20-something, she is redundant, but could still recruit.
• The number of parties and ‘events’ at which Epstein can share the girls around.
• The number of people attending these events that would want one of Epstein’s girls.

Unlimited factors are:

• The amount of cash Epstein has. For a disadvantaged teenager €200 is a lot of money and hard to turn down, especially if she can multiply it several times, and earn further cash from introducing friends.
• The number of attendees at Epstein and Maxwell events, presumably the more girls Epstein can provide the more interest in predatory men.
• The predatory men being selected for the wealth by Epstein and Maxwell also have no problems in ‘investing’ indirectly with Epstein, in exchange for sexual ‘favours’ from his stable. Perhaps included in the price of the ticket for the event.
• Epstein encourages his contacts to recruit more contacts to his scheme.
• Maxwell and Epstein are the middle men who bring the two parties together.

The Price

• The girls being young and from dysfunctional families in the main, although some are from wealthy homes and well-educated, know it is illegal but don’t realise the toll on their mental health in later years.
• They may contract STD’s, pregnancies, terminations, a juvenile misdemeanours record.
• The toll may include becoming dependent on drugs or alcohol to help cope with the stress of be used as a sex object by various men, some many years older than themselves.
• Likewise, the ‘clients’ realise that Epstein and Maxwell have ‘something’ on them, perhaps in the form of photos, tapes and videos. They realise they could be – or are being – blackmailed.
• They are incentivised to keep the operation secret, especially if they are ‘respectable citizens’ with wives and children.
• They are incentivised to keep the operation secret because underage sex is illegal.

The Risks for Epstein/Maxwell

• A serious crime conviction in conspiracy to sex traffic underage girls.
• A serious crime conspiracy to run a prostitution ring.
• A serious crime conspiracy to run a protection racket, for example, demanding ‘subs’ from their contact lists, or threats of exposure.

So: the sex workers invest their bodies into the scheme in exchange for ready cash and the lure of glamorous parties in exotic locations and mingling with the rich and famous.

The johns invest in Epstein’s ‘foundation’ and in attending his events, including scientific dinners with renowned scientists of the day, including Stephen Hawkings and Steven Pinker as guests (NB, there is no evidence they were johns), parties and orgies at his Zorro ranch in New Mexico and Little St. James’s in the Caribbean.

Epstein and Maxwell invest to build up this covert and illegal sex ring operation and to protect their ‘investments’ they tape record the goings on between the sex workers and the johns. The FBI found concealed video equipment in every room of his New York mansion, for example.

The Sting

• One or two of the sex workers realise the toll their ‘work’ has taken. They go to the police. They contact an attorney.
• The johns threaten the girls with legal action
• A corrupt judge, Acosta, takes nominal action to shut the case down by imposing a lenient sentence on Epstein and giving indemnity from legal action to his associates, which includes Maxwell.
• A group of former sex workers, including Giuffre, find an attorney willing to represent them, Bradley Edwards.
• The case is moved to New York and Epstein is arrested.
• It seems the game is over for the johns and the sex workers, but then Epstein is found dead in his cell and an inaudible sigh of relief goes up amongst the johns.
• Maxwell has gone into hiding.
• But then, she is discovered, arrested and charged
• Game on.
• The bottom begins to fall out.
• The girls’ lives are wrecked but they get compo.
• The johns lives may be wrecked - but not yet! - the higher up they are (Clinton, the British Royal Family) the harder they will fall.
• They may need to explain why they paid hugely inflated prices for a dinner, for example, over and beyond the costs of an airfare and accommodation.
• Many will have recharged the costs to their corporations as ‘client entertaining’. Such an expenses reduces their corporation tax bill as an allowable deduction form net profit.
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Old 6th April 2021, 07:04 AM   #356
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Too long, didn't read.
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Old 6th April 2021, 07:04 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
And what has that to do with whether or not Maxwell was actually responsible for raping* multiple children, and enabling the rape of many more?


*And given the plausible claims of violent coercion - any question about age of consent is actually a red herring.

ETA: Unless there is some utterly astounding revelation - for example a body double or something equally implausible, there's enough information to say she's guilty of rape and slavery
That may or may not be so. Remember: you have received all of this information via Bradley Edwards and Virginia Guiffre's superb PR campaign to highlight the issue.

A criminal court of law will take the view of
  • a presumption of innocence until it has heard ALL of the evidence brought before it
  • a level playing field: the parties will be treated equitably.
  • Justice is to be seen and heard.
  • Justice is blind.
  • Then and only then after ALL the evidence is put forward and EACH of the parties heard is the verdict considered.

And that is the way it should be.
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Old 6th April 2021, 07:06 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT CRIMINAL LAW. I'm talking about whether the person actually committed the deeds they are accused of, regardless of how a jury finds her. How can you possibly be so wrong about everything?

As for taking the piss, you're just angry that I don't take your lies at face value, and you have no argument.
We ARE talking about criminal law. The subsection is TRIALS and errors.

You cannot browbeat me no matter what tactic you might like to try.
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Old 6th April 2021, 07:24 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We ARE talking about criminal law. The subsection is TRIALS and errors.

You cannot browbeat me no matter what tactic you might like to try.
Tactic?

I was literally talking about ACTUAL guilt. It's in the post I made that you quoted. It wasn't about criminal law. Just becaus the thread is in a section about trials doesn't mean that every single post is about criminal law.

Your inability or unwillingness to understand even the simplest point is worrying.
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Old 6th April 2021, 07:24 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Too long, didn't read.
Sadly I did - the summary: nice formatting, content crap.
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