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Tags Coronavirus , vaccine , vaccines

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Old 2nd December 2020, 02:09 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
My big question is that should most people in Australia receive the vaccine?
Yes.

We know for certain that breaches happen, and even if every visitor has had a vaccine, we know that 5% won't be immune and it only takes one case to infect a country. If it gets in an takes off and I don't think the idea of further lockdowns would hold much appeal.
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Old 2nd December 2020, 04:16 AM   #42
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The BBC have done a nice graphic on the Pfizer vaccine which has been approved today and vaccinations will start in a few days with a priority list based on age.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-5...ost_type=share

The vaccine is stable for 5 days at 2-8C which will allow some flexibility for the last step of the cold chain.

Last edited by Capsid; 2nd December 2020 at 04:18 AM.
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Old 2nd December 2020, 04:24 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Capsid View Post
The BBC have done a nice graphic on the Pfizer vaccine which has been approved today and vaccinations will start in a few days with a priority list based on age.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-5...ost_type=share

The vaccine is stable for 5 days at 2-8C which will allow some flexibility for the last step of the cold chain.
That's great news, but even with a few days stability at fridge temps, it's still more suited to use in major institutions such as hospitals and specialist centres in major population areas. Perfect for NHS staff and care homes in cities.

Now to wait fo the AZ/Oxford vaccine. No doubt the long pause for the 30,000 trial vaccinations in the USA will hold the approvals for that up.
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Old 2nd December 2020, 05:47 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Yes.

We know for certain that breaches happen, and even if every visitor has had a vaccine, we know that 5% won't be immune and it only takes one case to infect a country. If it gets in an takes off and I don't think the idea of further lockdowns would hold much appeal.
Yes, we should, but I for one would be happy to wait for the third or fourth round. There are many people who need it more than I do.
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Old 2nd December 2020, 11:42 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, we should, but I for one would be happy to wait for the third or fourth round. There are many people who need it more than I do.
Ditto. Wait to see if there are any undocumented side effects. Plus see what happens in the USA. Let them prove it actually works. Then I will have it. The exception is if there is a major quarantine breach then I will get it. But by that time it will be too late.
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Old 3rd December 2020, 12:16 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
My big question is that should most people in Australia receive the vaccine? There are hardly any cases. If they require everyone who enters the country to already have the vaccine then there is little risk of many people getting it in Australia.
How would you "police" that?

As for within the country, I saw the press conference today and they said they are not making the vaccine compulsory in Australia.

If memory serves me correctly, that's a turnaround from earlier in the pandemic.
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Old 3rd December 2020, 01:33 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
How would you "police" that?

As for within the country, I saw the press conference today and they said they are not making the vaccine compulsory in Australia.

If memory serves me correctly, that's a turnaround from earlier in the pandemic.
It should not be hard to enforce. There are many countries in the world you need to prove that you have received certain vaccines before you can enter.

They cannot make it compulsory until there are enough doses for everyone. Just wait for a few years then it would be strongly encouraged. "No jab, no pay."
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Old 3rd December 2020, 10:17 AM   #48
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According to this article, the amount of data analysed by the UK regulators is less that that analysed by the EMA (the EU's medicine regulator), which is why the UK authorised it first:
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-he...hpqdyjtFDwV4u8

Quote:
The EMA started a rolling review of preliminary data from Pfizer trials on Oct. 6, an emergency procedure aimed at speeding up possible approval, which usually takes at least seven months from reception of full data.

The UK regulator launched its own rolling review on Oct. 30, and analysed less data than made available to the EMA.

“The idea is not to be first but to have a safe and effective vaccine,” Germany’s Health Minister Jens Spahn told a news conference.

Asked about the emergency procedure used by Britain, he said EU countries had opted for a more thorough procedure to boost confidence in vaccines.

“If you evaluate only the partial data as they are doing they also take a minimum of risk,” the EMA’s former head Guido Rasi told an Italian radio.

“Personally I would have expected a robust review of all available data, which the British government has not done to be able to say that without Europe you come first,” he added.
Probably just to score some political browny points.
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Old 3rd December 2020, 11:05 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
According to this article, the amount of data analysed by the UK regulators is less that that analysed by the EMA (the EU's medicine regulator), which is why the UK authorised it first:
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-he...hpqdyjtFDwV4u8



Probably just to score some political browny points.
Although it hurts me to say it, approving this vaccine has probably been quicker by not having to work across 27 countries.
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Old 3rd December 2020, 01:47 PM   #50
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So maybe that's what this was all about:

BBC: Dr Fauci: The UK 'was not as careful' as US in vaccine approval
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Old 3rd December 2020, 01:58 PM   #51
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I can't remember where I saw it today, but apparently MHRA got involved much earlier than normal in scrutinising the trial data in the cycle than they normally would have. Part of the 'short-circuiting' of the processes.

ETA: Not the article I was thinking of, but a far better source (looks like they started the review a month ago):

http://www.pharmatimes.com/news/uks_...accine_1355933

Last edited by Mikemcc; 3rd December 2020 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 3rd December 2020, 02:28 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Capsid View Post
Although it hurts me to say it, approving this vaccine has probably been quicker by not having to work across 27 countries.
It made no difference:

https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...-authorisation
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Old 3rd December 2020, 02:50 PM   #53
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Fauci walks his political faux pas back. "It came out wrong."
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Old 3rd December 2020, 03:43 PM   #54
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[quote=The Great Zaganza;13304677]I see two contradictory goals here:
- make vaccination as widespread as possible, especially making sure to reach fringe populations like migrants and houseless
and
- finding ways to monitor the effectiveness and health impact of the vaccine for a month or two in as many people as possible, from as many demographics as possible

I don't expect this rollout to be smooth at all.[/QUOTE}
Nothing of this scope has been tried before, and of course there are going to be mistakes and certain amount of "Making it up as we go along".
That old saying about how no Military Plan survves five mintues of actual combat unchanged comes to mind.
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Old 3rd December 2020, 05:23 PM   #55
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We had a trial run here with the 2009 flu vaccine. There were bugs but nothing horribly difficult.

What I see here now is the vaccine isn't going to be ready all at once. People are going to be clamoring for those first doses and there won't be enough right away.

With the 2009 flu vaccine the state sent it out by counties. Firefighters in the next county over were able to get vaccine sooner than this county because we are larger and it was more complicated. That led to some anger issues.

Our public health has to determine who will get the first doses. But two weeks later there will be more and it will continue on like that. People are going to need patience and to keep their resentment in check.

I won't be getting my dose until at least the third delivery or later but hopefully I will be able to vaccinate EMS folks before that. They are exposed to patients. I'm high risk medically but I'm not treating infected patients.
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Old 3rd December 2020, 08:41 PM   #56
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Global COVID-19 vaccine distribution effort hit by cyberespionage

https://apnews.com/article/immunizat...445df588d7d611

- Associated Press.


"IBM security researchers say they have detected a cyberespionage effort using targeted phishing emails to try to collect vital information on the World Health Organization’s initiative for distributing COVID-19 vaccine to developing countries.
The researchers said they could not be sure who was behind the campaign, which began in September, or if it was successful. But the precision targeting and careful efforts to leave no tracks bore “the potential hallmarks of nation-state tradecraft,” the researchers said in a blog post Thursday."
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Old 4th December 2020, 02:10 PM   #57
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Apparently in the US they are going to use Walgreen's and CVS drug stores two huge drug store chains..as a distriubtion point. Makes perfect sense, frankly to use an existing distriubtion system rather then set up one from scratch.
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Old 6th December 2020, 12:45 PM   #58
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Here's an excellent analysis of the development of the vaccine - culmination of efforts that had been going on for decades: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/hea...he-finish-line
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Old 6th December 2020, 01:05 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Here's an excellent analysis of the development of the vaccine - culmination of efforts that had been going on for decades: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/hea...he-finish-line

Great article!

Agreed (with what they say in the article), that this probably deserves a Nobel. Momentous as the Corona virus vaccine itself is, the messenger-RNA business (I'll have to re-read the article one more time in leisure to properly understand that part) seems to have far greater and broader implications.
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Old 6th December 2020, 05:30 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Here's an excellent analysis of the development of the vaccine - culmination of efforts that had been going on for decades: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/hea...he-finish-line
Fantastic. So many pieces now fit into place in my head.
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Old 6th December 2020, 07:01 PM   #61
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Where is/are the antivaxxer thread(s).
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Old 6th December 2020, 07:32 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Great article!

Agreed (with what they say in the article), that this probably deserves a Nobel. Momentous as the Corona virus vaccine itself is, the messenger-RNA business (I'll have to re-read the article one more time in leisure to properly understand that part) seems to have far greater and broader implications.
Ooh ooh! Let me conduct an exercise in my ability to explain a technical subject in non-technical terms. I'm sure others can fact-check me if I make a mistake.

Messenger RNA (mRNA) is the molecule inside cells that carries genetic information from the DNA to the ribosome, where that information is turned into proteins, which are the molecules that constitute living tissues - the literal building blocks that make a person. An mRNA vaccine uses this mechanism so that the genetic information that is carried by your mRNA doesn't come from the DNA, but from the vaccine. This means that when the mRNA gets to the ribosome, instead of making a regular protein determined by your DNA, it makes the Coronavirus spike protein. This protein can be recognised by the body's immune system and can provoke an immune response against the complete virus.

Contrary to some fearmongering claims on the internet, this cannot change your DNA. In fact, your DNA is not involved at all, only the mechanism which otherwise would be reading your DNA.

How'd I do?
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Old 6th December 2020, 09:29 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Yes.

We know for certain that breaches happen, and even if every visitor has had a vaccine, we know that 5% won't be immune and it only takes one case to infect a country. If it gets in an takes off and I don't think the idea of further lockdowns would hold much appeal.
I think the first people to be vaccinated in Australia should be people who work in quarantine hotels. Plus their families and close friends. Breaches happen because these people get infected and then spread it to the rest of us. If these people are vaccinated then 95% of breaches would be avoided. Even more if their close contacts have also been vaccinated. They should have priority over other medical people and the elderly.
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Old 6th December 2020, 11:20 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Ooh ooh! Let me conduct an exercise in my ability to explain a technical subject in non-technical terms. I'm sure others can fact-check me if I make a mistake.

Messenger RNA (mRNA) is the molecule inside cells that carries genetic information from the DNA to the ribosome, where that information is turned into proteins, which are the molecules that constitute living tissues - the literal building blocks that make a person. An mRNA vaccine uses this mechanism so that the genetic information that is carried by your mRNA doesn't come from the DNA, but from the vaccine. This means that when the mRNA gets to the ribosome, instead of making a regular protein determined by your DNA, it makes the Coronavirus spike protein. This protein can be recognised by the body's immune system and can provoke an immune response against the complete virus.

Contrary to some fearmongering claims on the internet, this cannot change your DNA. In fact, your DNA is not involved at all, only the mechanism which otherwise would be reading your DNA.

How'd I do?



But DNA is so scary.
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Old 6th December 2020, 11:41 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Ooh ooh! Let me conduct an exercise in my ability to explain a technical subject in non-technical terms. I'm sure others can fact-check me if I make a mistake.

Messenger RNA (mRNA) is the molecule inside cells that carries genetic information from the DNA to the ribosome, where that information is turned into proteins, which are the molecules that constitute living tissues - the literal building blocks that make a person. An mRNA vaccine uses this mechanism so that the genetic information that is carried by your mRNA doesn't come from the DNA, but from the vaccine. This means that when the mRNA gets to the ribosome, instead of making a regular protein determined by your DNA, it makes the Coronavirus spike protein. This protein can be recognised by the body's immune system and can provoke an immune response against the complete virus.

Contrary to some fearmongering claims on the internet, this cannot change your DNA. In fact, your DNA is not involved at all, only the mechanism which otherwise would be reading your DNA.

How'd I do?
Just hope you don't get infected by a retrovirus around the time of vaccination! (Facetious, even if the reverse transcriptase turned the RNA into DNA, viral DNA rarely gets incorporated into your genome.)


A brief but accurate synopsis.
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Old 6th December 2020, 11:52 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Great article!

Agreed (with what they say in the article), that this probably deserves a Nobel. Momentous as the Corona virus vaccine itself is, the messenger-RNA business (I'll have to re-read the article one more time in leisure to properly understand that part) seems to have far greater and broader implications.
Interestingly the mRNA business unto now has been disappointing. Moderna's various attempts have been flops until the vaccine. Although early into production mRNA vaccines have significant issues. Given a choice I would wait for a more conventional (AZ/Oxford) vaccine. Although in trials the mRNA efficacy was high, in practice the extreme cold chain requirements and the delicacy of mRNA present problems in real world delivery. DO NOT SHAKE the vaccine! If you forget and shake the vaccine it falls apart. You need to handle it like nitroglycerine.

I think that when rolled out the efficacy will be less because habit will cause people to shake the ampoule, or they will drop it, etc.
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Old 7th December 2020, 12:02 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Interestingly the mRNA business unto now has been disappointing. Moderna's various attempts have been flops until the vaccine. Although early into production mRNA vaccines have significant issues. Given a choice I would wait for a more conventional (AZ/Oxford) vaccine. Although in trials the mRNA efficacy was high, in practice the extreme cold chain requirements and the delicacy of mRNA present problems in real world delivery. DO NOT SHAKE the vaccine! If you forget and shake the vaccine it falls apart. You need to handle it like nitroglycerine.

I think that when rolled out the efficacy will be less because habit will cause people to shake the ampoule, or they will drop it, etc.
With the CDC here now getting back on track, they are being more than careful with the Pfizer vaccine. You have to show your freezer temperature monitor was recently calibrated and you have to show 3 or more days of the temperature records. They want pictures of the freezer as well.

You have to list all the providers that will be giving the vaccine.

I'm not getting involved, I don't have a freezer anyway. But the instructions handling this vaccine are going to be extreme. They aren't just shipping it out.

I'm hoping when the Moderna vaccine is available I'll have access to that one. I'm sure the public health (all under of the CDC) will be equally as cautious.
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Old 7th December 2020, 02:10 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Interestingly the mRNA business unto now has been disappointing. Moderna's various attempts have been flops until the vaccine. Although early into production mRNA vaccines have significant issues. Given a choice I would wait for a more conventional (AZ/Oxford) vaccine. Although in trials the mRNA efficacy was high, in practice the extreme cold chain requirements and the delicacy of mRNA present problems in real world delivery. DO NOT SHAKE the vaccine! If you forget and shake the vaccine it falls apart. You need to handle it like nitroglycerine.

I think that when rolled out the efficacy will be less because habit will cause people to shake the ampoule, or they will drop it, etc.
A British team at Imperial College has worked out how to keep an RNA vaccine, similar to the leading Pfizer/BioNTech coronavirus candidate, stable in the fridge.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-h...ccine-fridge/.

Although that doesn't address any fragility issues.
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Old 7th December 2020, 06:08 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Ooh ooh! Let me conduct an exercise in my ability to explain a technical subject in non-technical terms. I'm sure others can fact-check me if I make a mistake.

Messenger RNA (mRNA) is the molecule inside cells that carries genetic information from the DNA to the ribosome, where that information is turned into proteins, which are the molecules that constitute living tissues - the literal building blocks that make a person. An mRNA vaccine uses this mechanism so that the genetic information that is carried by your mRNA doesn't come from the DNA, but from the vaccine. This means that when the mRNA gets to the ribosome, instead of making a regular protein determined by your DNA, it makes the Coronavirus spike protein. This protein can be recognised by the body's immune system and can provoke an immune response against the complete virus.

Contrary to some fearmongering claims on the internet, this cannot change your DNA. In fact, your DNA is not involved at all, only the mechanism which otherwise would be reading your DNA.

How'd I do?

Thanks arthwollipot!

To be very honest, I did NOT understand all of that! But that's entirely on my lack of basic knowledge (and on having forgotten what little about all of this they'd teach us back in school!), and does not reflect on your cool summarizing itself.

There's only so much you can spoon-feed someone, without that someone doing some forking up from the buffet themselves, but what, would you say, is the one essential difference between mRNA vaccines and the regular vaccines, in terms of what they ARE? (As opposed to these ancilliary things like the temperature and the efficacy and et cetera?)


Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Interestingly the mRNA business unto now has been disappointing. Moderna's various attempts have been flops until the vaccine. Although early into production mRNA vaccines have significant issues. Given a choice I would wait for a more conventional (AZ/Oxford) vaccine. Although in trials the mRNA efficacy was high, in practice the extreme cold chain requirements and the delicacy of mRNA present problems in real world delivery. DO NOT SHAKE the vaccine! If you forget and shake the vaccine it falls apart. You need to handle it like nitroglycerine.

I think that when rolled out the efficacy will be less because habit will cause people to shake the ampoule, or they will drop it, etc.

That's the generic "I", right? I can see why, all of those reasons that have to do with the refrigeration, and the cost, and all of that.

Or do you mean that you yourself, given the mRNA thing and the more conventional Oxford thing, would prefer to go with the Oxford product, despite their lower efficacy? Why would you say that (if at all that's what you're saying)?
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Old 7th December 2020, 06:19 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Thanks arthwollipot!

To be very honest, I did NOT understand all of that! But that's entirely on my lack of basic knowledge (and on having forgotten what little about all of this they'd teach us back in school!), and does not reflect on your cool summarizing itself.

There's only so much you can spoon-feed someone, without that someone doing some forking up from the buffet themselves, but what, would you say, is the one essential difference between mRNA vaccines and the regular vaccines, in terms of what they ARE? (As opposed to these ancilliary things like the temperature and the efficacy and et cetera?)
The Oxford vaccine is not too dissimilar to the mRNA vaccines in that genetic material (DNA) is delivered into the cell by the adenovirus vector that then gets expressed into SARS-COV-2 spike protein.
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Old 7th December 2020, 06:27 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Capsid View Post
The Oxford vaccine is not too dissimilar to the mRNA vaccines in that genetic material (DNA) is delivered into the cell by the adenovirus vector that then gets expressed into SARS-COV-2 spike protein.

I realize I'm starting to ask stupid questions now, and I'll refrain from asking any more (at least not until I sit down and do some reading up on this), but: If, as you say, the Oxford product is similar-ish to the mRNA vaccines, then does that mean that the huge difference in temperature as well as cost isn't simply a function of the newer mRNA process/method? That was the impression I'd drawn (probably entirely erroneously).
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Old 7th December 2020, 06:51 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
I realize I'm starting to ask stupid questions now, and I'll refrain from asking any more (at least not until I sit down and do some reading up on this), but: If, as you say, the Oxford product is similar-ish to the mRNA vaccines, then does that mean that the huge difference in temperature as well as cost isn't simply a function of the newer mRNA process/method? That was the impression I'd drawn (probably entirely erroneously).
RNA is very fragile. DNA not so much
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Old 7th December 2020, 07:14 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Capsid View Post
RNA is very fragile. DNA not so much

Got it!
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Old 7th December 2020, 05:18 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
To be very honest, I did NOT understand all of that! But that's entirely on my lack of basic knowledge (and on having forgotten what little about all of this they'd teach us back in school!), and does not reflect on your cool summarizing itself.
I didn't include a lot of information about the DNA - RNA - Ribosome interaction because that's a pretty big rabbit hole and I was trying to be concise. It's a fascinating subject if you're interested, and there are some pretty good summaries for nonscientists out there.
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Old 7th December 2020, 06:43 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Ooh ooh! Let me conduct an exercise in my ability to explain a technical subject in non-technical terms. I'm sure others can fact-check me if I make a mistake.

Messenger RNA (mRNA) is the molecule inside cells that carries genetic information from the DNA to the ribosome, where that information is turned into proteins, which are the molecules that constitute living tissues - the literal building blocks that make a person. An mRNA vaccine uses this mechanism so that the genetic information that is carried by your mRNA doesn't come from the DNA, but from the vaccine. This means that when the mRNA gets to the ribosome, instead of making a regular protein determined by your DNA, it makes the Coronavirus spike protein. This protein can be recognised by the body's immune system and can provoke an immune response against the complete virus.

Contrary to some fearmongering claims on the internet, this cannot change your DNA. In fact, your DNA is not involved at all, only the mechanism which otherwise would be reading your DNA.

How'd I do?
Okay Mr. Smartypants, tell me why a bad chromodomain helicase DNA binding protein 7(CHD 7) gene causes grief.
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Old 7th December 2020, 06:50 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Okay Mr. Smartypants, tell me why a bad chromodomain helicase DNA binding protein 7(CHD 7) gene causes grief.
Nope, no idea.
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Old 7th December 2020, 07:22 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Okay Mr. Smartypants, tell me why a bad chromodomain helicase DNA binding protein 7(CHD 7) gene causes grief.
Well, duh.

The chromodomain helicase DNA-binding proteins (CHDs) are known to affect transcription through their ability to remodel chromatin and modulate histone deacetylation.

I thought everyone knew that.
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Old 7th December 2020, 08:13 PM   #78
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Yeah, what he said.
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Old 7th December 2020, 09:54 PM   #79
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It's the beginning of the end. COVID vaccine is beginning its assault on the disease.

China has been vaccinating for a while, starting with their military months ago.

Russia has begun to use the vaccine they have available.

London (or the UK?) is rolling out their vaccine.

Vaccinations will start soon here in the US.

It's the beginning of the end. Tonight it feels like this is really it.


Despite the **** in this country Trump is responsible for, the end is beginning.

Sadly this won't come soon enough for thousands, but it will be soon enough for millions more.
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Old 8th December 2020, 07:15 AM   #80
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A cautionary tale about the rush to produce the first polio vaccines:
Quote:
On April 12, 1955, Salk’s vaccine was declared to be safe and effective. Within three hours of this announcement, the federal government granted licenses to five pharmaceutical companies to begin producing the vaccine. Thanks to political pressure, mass vaccine production, dissemination, and inoculation began on April 13.

Within days there were reports of post-vaccine paralysis. Even as the number of children who developed polio after getting the vaccine grew, repeated assurances of safety by the vaccine developers combined with minimal federal oversight allowed polio vaccination to continue for an additional three weeks.

When the surgeon general finally stopped vaccinations on May 6, 1955, 40,000 children had developed vaccine-induced polio, 200 were paralyzed, and 10 had died. Salk’s inactivation method had been used incorrectly by several manufacturers, and 200,000 children had received vaccines containing live poliovirus.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/12/07/...l-meier-polio/
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