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Tags Coronavirus , vaccine , vaccines

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Old 4th April 2021, 04:03 AM   #1321
dann
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Deaths are taking a bit longer but they are also down by about 85% from the peak.
On Worldometers's list of most Covid-19 deaths per million, Israel has gone down from #52 to #58 in a couple of weeks.
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Old 4th April 2021, 08:09 AM   #1322
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AZ gets kicked out of Baltimore factory.
Quote:
The federal government has moved to stop any further risk of contamination at a Baltimore contract vaccine manufacturer where 15 million potential doses of Johnson & Johnson vaccine were spoiled last month, telling rival drugmaker AstraZeneca it must move its production from the plant and find somewhere else to make its vaccine.
https://wtop.com/coronavirus/2021/04...0Blasttest%20A
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Old 4th April 2021, 08:59 AM   #1323
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Originally Posted by Article linked by Bob001 View Post
Government officials have stressed that the discovery of the contamination shows the meticulous inspection and quality control systems in place at vaccine manufacturing plants worked the way they are designed to. They characterized moves to strengthen oversight at the Emergent plant as standard for such an occurrence, and noted that contamination, while uncommon and undesirable, is not an extraordinary event.

Didn't see any actual details on how the error occurred but this qualitative description is good to know.
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Old 4th April 2021, 01:03 PM   #1324
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Didn't see any actual details on how the error occurred but this qualitative description is good to know.

Specific cause not announced, but extensive problems documented over time:
https://apnews.com/article/virus-vac...be8b13a6db7fed

Last edited by Bob001; 4th April 2021 at 01:20 PM.
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Old 4th April 2021, 01:56 PM   #1325
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Didn't see any actual details on how the error occurred but this qualitative description is good to know.
A DC-area radio station claimed that the J&J vaccine was contaminated with ingredients from the AZ vaccine.
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Old 4th April 2021, 02:10 PM   #1326
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
A DC-area radio station claimed that the J&J vaccine was contaminated with ingredients from the AZ vaccine.

That was widely reported, but nobody has explained how the mistake was made. A layperson might imagine that supplies for two different vaccines made on two different lines would be stored far apart, and even that the workers themselves would be separated.
Quote:
Workers at a plant in Baltimore manufacturing two coronavirus vaccines accidentally conflated the ingredients several weeks ago, contaminating up to 15 million doses of Johnson & Johnson’s vaccine and forcing regulators to delay authorization of the plant’s production lines.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/31/w...ine-mixup.html
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Old 4th April 2021, 02:22 PM   #1327
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
A DC-area radio station claimed that the J&J vaccine was contaminated with ingredients from the AZ vaccine.
Right. Was curious about details about how it happened and how unusual it is to happen. Wondering if this kind of thing happens all the time with early batches or is unusual. Basically this story confirms it's not common but not extraordinary.
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Old 4th April 2021, 02:27 PM   #1328
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Specific cause not announced, but extensive problems documented over time:
https://apnews.com/article/virus-vac...be8b13a6db7fed
Thanks. Sounds bad to my untrained ear so I wonder how this compares to other companies.
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Old 4th April 2021, 02:44 PM   #1329
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How not to do a vaccine rollout
4 ways Australia’s COVID vaccine rollout has been bungled
Quote:
Bungle 1: the wrong pace
Bungle 2: the wrong phasing
Bungle 3: the wrong model
Bungle 4: the wrong messaging
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Old 5th April 2021, 07:43 AM   #1330
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My guess (as an engineer supporting small scale bioreactor systems in this field) is that there is a common goods-in for the site and there is misreading of additives in the various media mixtures. Some destined for one production line has ended up at the other and resulted in lost batches. The range of different media types is mind-bogglingly complex.
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Old 6th April 2021, 03:59 AM   #1331
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EMA confirms earlier reports about a connection between AstraZeneca's vaccine and thrombosis:

Quote:
EMA head of vaccines Marco Cavaleri told Italy's Il Messaggero newspaper that "in my opinion, we can say it now, it is clear there is a link with the vaccine", although it was not clear what caused such a reaction.
EMA official links AstraZeneca vaccine and thrombosis (MedicalXpress, April 6, 2021)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 6th April 2021 at 04:02 AM.
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Old 6th April 2021, 09:42 PM   #1332
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Just a "life returning to normal" story:

After coronavirus, Israel's malls and markets come back to life (Jerusalem Post)

Quote:
Two months after Israel’s third lockdown, shoppers have returned in full force to Israel’s malls and markets.
At Jerusalem’s Hadar Mall, “shoppers have returned to 100% of pre-pandemic levels,” said the mall’s CEO, Liron Elkayam.
“We are experiencing great interest, and turnover before the Passover holiday was even a bit higher than in previous years due to the pent-up demand,” he said. “We did a big campaign before the holiday to celebrate our return, and people responded.
“We continue to maintain the safety standards of the Purple Ribbon requirements, and people say they feel safe. Sales are up, and store owners are happy to be back in their routines. My colleagues in other malls are saying the same thing.”
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Old 7th April 2021, 12:48 AM   #1333
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So the UK tabloids claim that 'the EU is just jealous of our British vaccination', has taken a new turn:

Quote:
Vaccinations for the under-50s should be paused while the regulator investigates the risk of blood clotting from AstraZeneca's jab, one of the Government's scientific advisers has suggested.

Dr Maggie Wearmouth, a member of the joint committee on vaccination and immunisation (JCVI), opened the possibility to 'slowing things down' until Britain's home-grown shot is branded completely safe.

She said: 'The issue is about safety and public confidence. We don't want to cover anything up that we feel that the public should be knowing.'
DM

So now some countries are stopping under-30's; others are saying, such as Finland, that the under-65's can only have it if it is a second jab (these will be the people in risk group I).

But so much for the claim it was was just EU envy of the UK that paused the AZ roll-out. The UK is also pausing the trial of 200 children owing to advice from MHRA, the regulators.
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Old 7th April 2021, 03:13 AM   #1334
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So the UK tabloids claim that 'the EU is just jealous of our British vaccination', has taken a new turn:

DM

So now some countries are stopping under-30's; others are saying, such as Finland, that the under-65's can only have it if it is a second jab (these will be the people in risk group I).

But so much for the claim it was was just EU envy of the UK that paused the AZ roll-out. The UK is also pausing the trial of 200 children owing to advice from MHRA, the regulators.
The EU didn't pause the rollout, it was the individual countries. The EU was urging the individual countries to use the AZ vaccine. You aren't confusing the EU with the individual countries which make up the EU are you?

Easy mistake to make I suppose.
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Old 7th April 2021, 03:15 AM   #1335
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So the idea that there was no link between AZ and the rare blood-clotting disorder seems to have been based on nothing but nationalism ...
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th April 2021, 03:19 AM   #1336
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So the idea that there was no link between AZ and the rare blood-clotting disorder seems to have been based on nothing but nationalism ...
The EU itself was quite happy to promote its continued use.... Nationalism?
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Old 7th April 2021, 05:28 AM   #1337
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So the idea that there was no link between AZ and the rare blood-clotting disorder seems to have been based on nothing but nationalism ...
Not sure who was claiming that.

I have been saying that there was no definite link (there now seems to be one), but also that the numbers affected were so small that the risks from not being vaccinated were much greater than from the vaccine. Which isn't saying that nothing should be done, but that a blanket halt on administering the vaccine will probably (depending on certain factors, such as current levels of infection, age profile, etc.) kill more people than continuing to use it, especially if the affected people can be identified and treated.
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Old 7th April 2021, 05:46 AM   #1338
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I'm due my second dose of the AZ vaccine in ten days. I'm in two minds. On one hand I took the Yellow Fever vaccine for no other reason than to go on a cruise, even though I was old enough (by one day!) to have requested an exemption certificate. And that one has a much higher mortality rate than the AZ coronavirus vaccine.

On the other hand I am quite safe from the coronavirus at the moment. Not only am I living like a hermit, the virus is suppressed in the area where I live - we haven't had a case in weeks and there were only four cases in the entire region in the week ending 3rd April. And then again my main concern with the AZ vaccine is actually its allegedly poor performance against the South African strain. If that strain takes over here then I might be unprotected despite getting the vaccine. If I refused to take the second dose, would that get me tracked on to a route to getting one of the other vaccines? I don't know.

Oh well, I have ten days to decide.
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Old 7th April 2021, 08:06 AM   #1339
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Not sure who was claiming that.

I have been saying that there was no definite link (there now seems to be one), but also that the numbers affected were so small that the risks from not being vaccinated were much greater than from the vaccine. Which isn't saying that nothing should be done, but that a blanket halt on administering the vaccine will probably (depending on certain factors, such as current levels of infection, age profile, etc.) kill more people than continuing to use it, especially if the affected people can be identified and treated.

That would depend on whom you asked. The Norwegian researchers said there was a definite link weeks ago. EMA has now confirmed it.

It doesn't seem to be possible to identify the affected people until they are actually affected, i.e. you can't pick a group of people who are more likely to get the syndrome before they get the shot. The factors also depend on another important thing: access to alternative vaccines.
Confidence in vaccines in general should also be taken into consideration.

Quote:
The European Medicines Agency says blood clotting should be listed as a 'very rare' side effect of the AstraZeneca coronavirus vaccine. But the EU regulator says the benefits of the jab outweigh the risks.
AstraZeneca: EMA says blood clots 'very rare' side effect (DW, April 7, 2021)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th April 2021, 08:09 AM   #1340
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm due my second dose of the AZ vaccine in ten days. I'm in two minds. On one hand I took the Yellow Fever vaccine for no other reason than to go on a cruise, even though I was old enough (by one day!) to have requested an exemption certificate. And that one has a much higher mortality rate than the AZ coronavirus vaccine.

On the other hand I am quite safe from the coronavirus at the moment. Not only am I living like a hermit, the virus is suppressed in the area where I live - we haven't had a case in weeks and there were only four cases in the entire region in the week ending 3rd April. And then again my main concern with the AZ vaccine is actually its allegedly poor performance against the South African strain. If that strain takes over here then I might be unprotected despite getting the vaccine. If I refused to take the second dose, would that get me tracked on to a route to getting one of the other vaccines? I don't know.

Oh well, I have ten days to decide.

I don't know if this particular side effect occurs only after the first or the second shot, but it might be worth looking into.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th April 2021, 08:12 AM   #1341
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UK news now all running headlines that the under 30s will NOT be offered the AZ vaccine, due to the blood clot risk.
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Old 7th April 2021, 09:52 AM   #1342
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
UK news now all running headlines that the under 30s will NOT be offered the AZ vaccine, due to the blood clot risk.

EU authorities have determined that the AZ vaccine may increase likelihood of clots.
Quote:
BERLIN — Europe’s medical regulator on Wednesday said that it is likely that AstraZeneca’s coronavirus vaccine is causing rare but sometimes deadly blood clots in a small number of those vaccinated, a development that could complicate plans to roll it out across the world.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...399_story.html
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Old 7th April 2021, 12:00 PM   #1343
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The clotting adverse reaction is overblown in people's minds, (including mine even though I know the numbers, etc) because it has received so much news coverage. People are very bad at assessing true risk from perceived risk.

I don't know if that is an easily solvable problem.
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Old 7th April 2021, 12:24 PM   #1344
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The clotting adverse reaction is overblown in people's minds, (including mine even though I know the numbers, etc) because it has received so much news coverage. People are very bad at assessing true risk from perceived risk.

I don't know if that is an easily solvable problem.
If AZ were the only vaccine, then the benefit would obviously far outweigh the risk. But with other vaccines available in the U.S. and around the world that don't pose the potential outcome of severe illness, even death, I think there's a legitimate question of whether the AZ should be administered at all. Suppose the resources devoted to manufacturing the AZ were switched to the J&J?

Last edited by Bob001; 7th April 2021 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 7th April 2021, 02:39 PM   #1345
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm due my second dose of the AZ vaccine in ten days. I'm in two minds. On one hand I took the Yellow Fever vaccine for no other reason than to go on a cruise, even though I was old enough (by one day!) to have requested an exemption certificate. And that one has a much higher mortality rate than the AZ coronavirus vaccine.

On the other hand I am quite safe from the coronavirus at the moment. Not only am I living like a hermit, the virus is suppressed in the area where I live - we haven't had a case in weeks and there were only four cases in the entire region in the week ending 3rd April. And then again my main concern with the AZ vaccine is actually its allegedly poor performance against the South African strain. If that strain takes over here then I might be unprotected despite getting the vaccine. If I refused to take the second dose, would that get me tracked on to a route to getting one of the other vaccines? I don't know.

Oh well, I have ten days to decide.
I think the above post could have been written by most people in Australia or New Zealand. The only difference being that post people have not received their first dose yet (at least in Australia).
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Old 7th April 2021, 03:02 PM   #1346
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
If AZ were the only vaccine, then the benefit would obviously far outweigh the risk. But with other vaccines available in the U.S. and around the world that don't pose the potential outcome of severe illness, even death, I think there's a legitimate question of whether the AZ should be administered at all. Suppose the resources devoted to manufacturing the AZ were switched to the J&J?
Tell that to people who can't get an appointment yet.
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Old 7th April 2021, 04:04 PM   #1347
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Tell that to people who can't get an appointment yet.
It looks like the problem in the U.S. is now not supply, but distribution. There are apparently places where vaccines are going unused. Would you take the AZ knowing that three other proven vaccines are available?
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Old 7th April 2021, 04:09 PM   #1348
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Jesus Christ, this is not going to be understood properly in terms of risk. I fear that this is exactly the kind of thing that will make people not want to take the vaccine. In some cases it will result in wasted vaccine doses that otherwise would save lives and in other cases it will bleed into general vaccine hestitancy.

The vast, vast, vast majority of people would be better off taking it than risking Covid 19 infections.
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Old 7th April 2021, 04:31 PM   #1349
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It looks like the problem in the U.S. is now not supply, but distribution. There are apparently places where vaccines are going unused. Would you take the AZ knowing that three other proven vaccines are available?
That's not a relevant question.

Would you take the AZ vaccine knowing that no other vaccines were currently available?
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Old 7th April 2021, 04:31 PM   #1350
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Jesus Christ, this is not going to be understood properly in terms of risk. I fear that this is exactly the kind of thing that will make people not want to take the vaccine. In some cases it will result in wasted vaccine doses that otherwise would save lives and in other cases it will bleed into general vaccine hestitancy.

The vast, vast, vast majority of people would be better off taking it than risking Covid 19 infections.
Exactly ^
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Old 7th April 2021, 04:45 PM   #1351
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There’s a good graphic that shows the estimated benefits/costs of the AZ vaccine. If the graphic is accurate then it does indeed suggest that taking the vaccine for over 30s is worthwhile and that it makes sense to use an alternative for under 30s....

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...e_iOSApp_Other
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Old 7th April 2021, 04:56 PM   #1352
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's not a relevant question.

Would you take the AZ vaccine knowing that no other vaccines were currently available?

Of course I would. But that's not the situation we're in.

Last edited by Bob001; 7th April 2021 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 7th April 2021, 05:16 PM   #1353
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Of course I would. But that's not the situation we're in.
I don't know what it's like where you are but my son is driving 5 hours away to Yakima to get his first dose a couple weeks earlier than he could have in Seattle. They have some extra, but still, that's a long way to get a vaccine dose.
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Old 7th April 2021, 06:20 PM   #1354
Bob001
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't know what it's like where you are but my son is driving 5 hours away to Yakima to get his first dose a couple weeks earlier than he could have in Seattle. They have some extra, but still, that's a long way to get a vaccine dose.

If I had the choice of getting AZ today, or getting one of the others in two weeks, I'd wait the two weeks.

Note that AZ has not been approved in the U.S., and there's no indication of when it might be. By the time it could be approved here, the supply and distribution problems of the others will likely be less severe.
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Old 7th April 2021, 06:49 PM   #1355
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What I don't understand is why they are encouraging people that have already had Covid-19, and it's a significant percentage, to get vaccinated right now if they are in the eligible age/occupation groups. So long as there is a shortage of vaccine shouldn't people that already had it be asked to wait until there is no longer a shortage? Wouldn't the jabs going into only people that hadn't gotten it reduce the spread more as long as the vaccine is in limited supply?
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Old 7th April 2021, 07:35 PM   #1356
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Originally Posted by marting View Post
What I don't understand is why they are encouraging people that have already had Covid-19, and it's a significant percentage, to get vaccinated right now if they are in the eligible age/occupation groups. So long as there is a shortage of vaccine shouldn't people that already had it be asked to wait until there is no longer a shortage? Wouldn't the jabs going into only people that hadn't gotten it reduce the spread more as long as the vaccine is in limited supply?
My guess....

If everyone behaved completely rationally, it would make sense... if you had covid, just wait and get the shot after non-covid patients have had their shots. But, people are not rational. Perhaps they are worried that if they don't emphasize NOW that people should get vaccinated, then they simply won't in the future, thinking "The danger is now past, why bother?"

(And they don't know how long immunity lasts if you catch covid and recover, nor how well natural immunity handles the variants, so you don't want anyone, even people who already had covid, to totally skip vaccination.)
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Old 7th April 2021, 07:36 PM   #1357
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
If I had the choice of getting AZ today, or getting one of the others in two weeks, I'd wait the two weeks....
And all the while the numbers of new cases are on the rise.

Seriously, get some perspective here, the vaccine risk is minuscule, the disease risk is huge.
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Old 7th April 2021, 07:53 PM   #1358
marting
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
My guess....

If everyone behaved completely rationally, it would make sense... if you had covid, just wait and get the shot after non-covid patients have had their shots. But, people are not rational. Perhaps they are worried that if they don't emphasize NOW that people should get vaccinated, then they simply won't in the future, thinking "The danger is now past, why bother?"
That does seem the likely theory. Especially as there are already a lot of people unwilling to get it when the bug is out and about. Once there is no vaccine shortage, case levels will likely be much lower and the previously infected may be more likely to skip it. Too bad. Irrational behavior, and policy modifications to optimize around the irrational behavior, costs lives.
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Old 7th April 2021, 08:17 PM   #1359
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And all the while the numbers of new cases are on the rise.

Seriously, get some perspective here, the vaccine risk is minuscule, the disease risk is huge.
It really depends on age, and other factors. If you are young, not part of risk group, you live secluded, or for people who already went through COVID, the vaccine might be bigger risk than the disease.
Also I feel a difference taking damage from disease, which I try to avoid, compared to taking damage from cure, which I decided to take.
Vaccination is not popular as it is. It's irrational, but it's also a fact. Forcing the vaccine on people even if we know it has issues won't help.
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Old 8th April 2021, 12:31 AM   #1360
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Originally Posted by marting View Post
What I don't understand is why they are encouraging people that have already had Covid-19, and it's a significant percentage, to get vaccinated right now if they are in the eligible age/occupation groups. So long as there is a shortage of vaccine shouldn't people that already had it be asked to wait until there is no longer a shortage? Wouldn't the jabs going into only people that hadn't gotten it reduce the spread more as long as the vaccine is in limited supply?
Practically it is far more difficult and expensive to test people to see if they have adequate pre-existing antibodies and only vaccinating those with insufficient absent antibodies. A system like this would probably slow vaccination on a population basis, increasing risk. We do not know if everyone who has had a clinical / confirmed covid infection is protected against getting a further infection. We do know vaccinated people are less likely to spread infection, we do not know that for naturally infected people. In the real world vaccinating everyone is easier and quicker and likely to offer better population benefit.
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