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Old 5th February 2021, 11:52 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Like too many brown people, too many human rights, too many workers rights and all the other things the Tories stand for. Well done.
It appears you are suggesting those are the concerns of the general public. Are you sure?

Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Absolute bollocks.
Only that bit?
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Old 5th February 2021, 12:24 PM   #122
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I read another thing this afternoon which also suggests that polls about vaccine hesitancy will underestimate the degree of herd immunity that can be achieved.

A hell of a lot of people have already had this virus. While it is impossible to achieve herd immunity by natural infection alone, it is quite true to say that natural immunity contributes to herd immunity. Quite a lot of the antivax crowd are likely to have had the actual virus, and in that case you can count them in for herd immunity purposes even if they continue to refuse the vaccine.
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Old 5th February 2021, 06:37 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I don't watch much television, so I wouldn't be able to comment on his sartorial sense, nor his current ability to speak, I seem to remember he has always had a bit of a stuttery pattern of speech . His hair has always been a bit of a mess. I am not sure being smartly dressed is a good marker for being a good leader. People do like the superficial, a criticism often made of Labour leaders (Foot, Kinnock, Corbyn) is their scruffiness.

It may be with social distancing he has no one to do his hair, certainly it would be unacceptable for him to have his hair cut by anyone other than his spouse. His wife and he will be doing far more house work etc. than I suspect is normal for a prime minister (other than perhaps Mrs T?), are dry cleaners open to clean and press his suits?

He has a young baby, perhaps it all those disturbed nights! Perhaps he is not only running the country but being made to get up half the night to deal with the babe? his offspring must be teething? The real message should be the country should insist he takes paternity leave!
Given that these have been hallmarks of his public persona since at least 2006 when he first appeared on HIGNFY, blaming it on a child or a recent virus is hardly realistic. I live in his previous parliamentary constituency his record as an MP representing Henley was appalling. Not based on disagreeing with his politics, but simply the fact that he rarely attended or voted. Doubtless those denizens of my last parish, Uxbridge, West Drayton, Harlington & Heathrow are feeling pretty great about voting for the man who promised to lie in front of bulldozers on their behalf now..
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Old 6th February 2021, 02:52 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
His story epitomises everything that is ***** about Britain. A hundred year old man having to debase himself to support things that should be funded by the government made into a hero by the press who seek sensationalise headlines and would rather avoid the real stories and killed by a virus that the government should have done better in combating. and celebrated with a Spitfire flyby just to rub in that we are still obsessed with the past and couldn't give a **** about the future.

If this country EVER stops harking back to WW2 and starts becoming a modern progressive European democracy we MIGHT actually have something worth celebrating.

Until then... colour me unimpressed.
Whoa! Capt. Tom Moore was not debasing himself. He is an exemplar to us all. If you have ever tried to raise money for charity - fundraising, marathon running, sponsoring, donating - you'll know that whilst multiple small donations can add up to thousands - maybe tens of thousands - how many people do you know who can motivate a net donation of almost £33,000,000 within mere weeks? So leave off!

The last time the UK had a feel-good moment was in the London 2012 Olympics and AFAICC Capt. Tom Moore provided the nation with its sole feel good factor last year.

The Spitfires and Lancasters are part of British history, why wouldn't people enjoy watching these displays?

There is scepticism...and then there is cynicism.
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Old 6th February 2021, 03:16 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Haven't clapped for anyone during the whole shebang and won't be involved in any North Korea-esque state sponsored show of adulation for anything or anyone thank you very much.

You want to support the NHS vote for politicians that support it.

Vote Tory and clap for things to be better? I hope you get COVID tomorrow.
Johnson was just the figurehead as UK Prime Minister. I didn't see it as his show.
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Old 6th February 2021, 03:33 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I would have thought a PPE degree would have been useful until I discovered Matt Hancock has one.
Matt Hancock has heroically tried to do his best. Unfortunately, he and his fellow cabinet are stymied by a control freak centrist Prime Minister, whose ethos all the way was herd immunity. Johnson very much follows in his father, Stanley's footsteps, numerous adulterous affairs, numerous children, multiple marriage and most saliently a belief in eugenics and population control, albeit maybe not consciously. Johnson looked to Tegnell, Vallance and Harries to support his views. Dr Jenny Harries really sucked up to Johnson and told him what he wanted to hear - Cheltenham/ Liverpool game with thousands of incoming Spanish fans (where Covid19 was rife) was safe because it was outdoors, various concerts in South Wales, schools were 'safe places' so shouldn't close down, masks were actually dangerous, it was 'just like a heavy cold' - although, sadly, she failed to get her Damehood in the New Year's honours. So whilst even Priti Patel had the right idea in wanting to close airports and border straight away in the early stages (yes, I know, that's what she wants to do all the time!) but was totally ignored. Likewise Jenrick popping off to visit his second home up North with the laughable excuse he needed to shop for his 'elderly' mother who was barely sixty, chief aide Dominic Cummings touring around Barnard Castle three hundred miles away and Johnson completely failing to condemn it, after having put 'tiers' in place restricting unnecessary travel.

Sunak did well with his early economic package and furlough plans. His eat-out-to help-out showed his eagerness for the pandemic to be over and to restart the economy. Prof Chris Whitty surely did warn Johnson there was a second wave coming in September but no, the dictator insisted on 'saving Christmas' in shades of his counterpart Trump - ban the Muslim and Hindi holidays but let the Christian one commence! - and I am pretty sure the pair fell out at various stages.

Then there was Attorney General Suella Braverman who thought she personally, had the power to enforce a longer prison sentence than that on statute. Yet she supported Cummings in his openly defying the new laws on Covid19 limitations on movement.

We have hardly heard from any of the other members of the cabinet, let alone the Tory party.

In all, the sole blame for the fiasco has to lie at Johnson's door. Everybody else was willing but the leadership weak.
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Old 6th February 2021, 03:35 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Metro headline today "We're past the peak,"

Express "10m Jabs... and we're past the peak"

Yelegraph "Sunak concerned scientists are 'moving the goalposts' on lockdown"

Mail "Boris: Now let's give Sir Tom a statue"
A statue is a lot cheaper than a state funeral. I was looking at Winston Churchill's Order of Service the other day (on Google) who was a rare commoner to have one. The sheer spectacle that seemed to go on and on, must have cost the nation fortune.


So yeah, a statute will be it.
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Old 6th February 2021, 03:37 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How long and how vigorously should hr have clapped?

Is there a minimum level below which you aren't showing enough respect?

Back in the summer when the clapping for the NHS was a thing there was a bloke up our street started knocking on the doors of people that weren't coming out to join in and berating those he thought weren't showing enough enthusiasm.

I never clapped once it's ******* stupid.
I am not sure clapping is appropriate for the dead, maybe a televised memorial service - such as the one for the Grenfell Tower victims - might have been more apt.
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Old 6th February 2021, 03:38 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Spitfires and Lancasters are part of British history, why wouldn't people enjoy watching these displays?
Because those particular ones hark back to the days of WWII that are so beloved of the Little Englanders? Churchill (a believer in Aryan supremacy) ... Dunkirk (a disaster that could have been a lot worse) ... ? I'm with Archie here, as the whole business made me cringe from start to end.
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Old 6th February 2021, 03:39 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What do you propose? some kind of legislation setting out minimum clapping standards?

Punishment for the first person to stop clapping?

I haven't clapped for anyone since I was last at a concert, what should be my punishment?
Ten hours of listening to Kylie Minogue?
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Old 6th February 2021, 03:44 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I don't watch much television, so I wouldn't be able to comment on his sartorial sense, nor his current ability to speak, I seem to remember he has always had a bit of a stuttery pattern of speech . His hair has always been a bit of a mess. I am not sure being smartly dressed is a good marker for being a good leader. People do like the superficial, a criticism often made of Labour leaders (Foot, Kinnock, Corbyn) is their scruffiness.

It may be with social distancing he has no one to do his hair, certainly it would be unacceptable for him to have his hair cut by anyone other than his spouse. His wife and he will be doing far more house work etc. than I suspect is normal for a prime minister (other than perhaps Mrs T?), are dry cleaners open to clean and press his suits?

He has a young baby, perhaps it all those disturbed nights! Perhaps he is not only running the country but being made to get up half the night to deal with the babe? his offspring must be teething? The real message should be the country should insist he takes paternity leave!

"Man makes Medical History - Long Covid since 2006"

When he was Mayor of London he bragged of having long liquid lunches. I worked in the City then, and nobody had liquid lunches any more. That was saved for Friday afternoon, when we'd all go down to a social room in the basement for 'drinks' before setting off for the City bars around Moorgate.
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Old 6th February 2021, 03:47 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Matt Hancock has heroically tried to do his best.
That may well be true; if so he is, like many other members of the cabinet, severely under-qualified for the job he holds.
Quote:
Unfortunately, he and his fellow cabinet are stymied by a control freak centrist Prime Minister,
Johnson, a control freak? What on earth do you think that term means?
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Old 6th February 2021, 03:53 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Johnson was just the figurehead as UK Prime Minister. I didn't see it as his show.
He may have picked up on something already arranged, I don't know (though I think the suggestion was to do it on Thursday night, as the Clap for Carers had been), but all the coverage of the clapping that I saw said that it was he who announced it at 6pm on Wednesday night.

Captain Sir Tom Moore: National clap announced by PM for fundraiser
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Old 6th February 2021, 03:54 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
That may well be true; if so he is, like many other members of the cabinet, severely under-qualified for the job he holds.

Johnson, a control freak? What on earth do you think that term means?
That he makes ALL the decisions. The Chancellor's own independent aides - a necessity for ministerial balance (economics versus politics) was removed - which caused Sajjid Javid to resign. All of the cabinet are under the control of Cummings' aides. He may have gone but they do not have the freedom to choose their own aides. They all signed a pledge that they would be nodding dogs to Johnson.


Anyone who has been in a committee knows you need each member to bring in their own level of expertise and there will often be disagreements (see hash tag 'Jackie Weaver' on Twitter, as an example). That is how democracy works.

Only dictators demand 100% authority.
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Old 6th February 2021, 03:55 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
He may have picked up on something already arranged, I don't know (though I think the suggestion was to do it on Thursday night, as the Clap for Carers had been), but all the coverage of the clapping that I saw said that it was he who announced it at 6pm on Wednesday night.

Captain Sir Tom Moore: National clap announced by PM for fundraiser
It was one of his (rare) good ideas.

Although, clapping...?
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Old 6th February 2021, 04:03 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am not sure clapping is appropriate for the dead,
Depends on the context, and the person. For sports people and other performers it doesn't seem out of place, especially if their death wasn't in particularly tragic circumstances. My memory says it seems to have started, or at least gained popularity, with George Best being remembered with applause at football grounds (Pompey was one of the first, IIRC).
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Old 6th February 2021, 04:04 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Because those particular ones hark back to the days of WWII that are so beloved of the Little Englanders? Churchill (a believer in Aryan supremacy) ... Dunkirk (a disaster that could have been a lot worse) ... ? I'm with Archie here, as the whole business made me cringe from start to end.
As I always comment - our view of back then is now pretty much entirely the fabrication of the propaganda of the time, I find it fascinating, the contrast with the modern perception and view and the reality.
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Old 6th February 2021, 04:21 AM   #138
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One man assault on the scourge of nominative determinism James Cleverly seems to have said that we shouldn't close the borders to travellers in response to the risk of new strains of the virus because... we've got really good genetic sequencing labs over here.
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Old 6th February 2021, 04:44 AM   #139
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Well James Cleverly is wrong.

We should take a leaf out of New Zealand's book.
Jacinda closed her borders, temporarily and it worked.

NZ only lost 25 people to Covid.
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Old 6th February 2021, 06:21 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post

This is supposed to be a skeptics forum yet nobody is allowed to state the obvious that 'Boris' Johnson is a bloody disgrace who has let SARS2 rage rampantly through Britain's care homes like fire, can't dress properly and can barely string two words together. This shabby spectacle of a man is the worst prime minister in living memory and has made the UK a laughing stock throughout the world. Yet mention the obvious and people start bleating, oh it's not his fault, he's got long covid...
You mean aside from all the times various of us have questioned his ability, moral probity, levels of application, levels of understanding of science, ability to keep to the truth and pretty much everything else about him? Aside from those times?

Yeah, aside from all the time some of us have spent criticising his existence we give him a free pass...

For avoidance of doubt, the paragraph immediately above this one is sarcasm.
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Old 6th February 2021, 06:53 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
You mean aside from all the times various of us have questioned his ability, moral probity, levels of application, levels of understanding of science, ability to keep to the truth and pretty much everything else about him? Aside from those times?

Yeah, aside from all the time some of us have spent criticising his existence we give him a free pass...

For avoidance of doubt, the paragraph immediately above this one is sarcasm.
Prove it. Show me where Laura Kuennsberg or anyone at the BBC, Murdoch/Barclay Brothers press has done any probing at all.

Aside from a handful of GUARDIAN columnists labelled 'Opinion', there has been no meaningful denouncement of this shambles of a man. Yes, he almost certainly does suffer from a WHO-list defined disease. Why is this the elephant in the room, after all, 'it's not his fault'? Nobody at all hesitates to mock Trump. Why is this man ring-fenced? And why were you huffing and puffing yourself? Are we supposed to pretend 'The Emperor is not Naked'?
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Old 6th February 2021, 06:57 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Prove it. Show me where Laura Kuennsberg or anyone at the BBC, Murdoch/Barclay Brothers press has done any probing at all.

Aside from a handful of GUARDIAN columnists labelled 'Opinion', there has been no meaningful denouncement of this shambles of a man. Yes, he almost certainly does suffer from a WHO-list defined disease. Why is this the elephant in the room, after all, 'it's not his fault'? Nobody at all hesitates to mock Trump. Why is this man ring-fenced? And why were you huffing and puffing yourself? Are we supposed to pretend 'The Emperor is not Naked'?
Laura Kuennsberg Is a member here - wow didn’t know that.
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Old 6th February 2021, 08:00 AM   #143
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Johnson is a pro fox hunting psychopath supporting wolf in sheeps clothing, he plays this affable man, yet supports some of the nastiest of the nastiest of the nastiest people on the planet, including the people who murdered Jamal Khashoggi.

And now he has the blood of more than 100k people on his hands through his mismanagement of Covid.

A plague on his house and a plague on the houses of those who chose not to provide a democratic alternative to him.
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Old 6th February 2021, 09:07 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Laura Kuennsberg Is a member here - wow didn’t know that.
I’m Laura Kuenssberg...
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Old 6th February 2021, 09:33 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I’m Laura Kuenssberg...
No, I'm Laura Kuenssberg
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Old 6th February 2021, 09:37 AM   #146
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Hi, Laura here.

My sources at Downing Street tell me that Boris is sad about the 100,000 deaths and that he has done his best.
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Old 6th February 2021, 09:40 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
No, I'm Laura Kuenssberg
I'm Laura Kuenssberg and so is my wife!
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Old 6th February 2021, 10:35 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Whoa! Capt. Tom Moore was not debasing himself. He is an exemplar to us all.
You're damn right he is.

He did that whilst recovering from a fall.
A fall that left him with broken ribs a punctured lung and a broken hip.

An incredible man.

Well said!
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Old 6th February 2021, 11:25 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Hi, Laura here.

My sources at Downing Street tell me that Boris is sad about the 100,000 deaths and that he has done his best.
Well done avoiding the point.
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Old 7th February 2021, 09:57 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Prove it. Show me where Laura Kuennsberg or anyone at the BBC, Murdoch/Barclay Brothers press has done any probing at all.

Aside from a handful of GUARDIAN columnists labelled 'Opinion', there has been no meaningful denouncement of this shambles of a man. Yes, he almost certainly does suffer from a WHO-list defined disease. Why is this the elephant in the room, after all, 'it's not his fault'? Nobody at all hesitates to mock Trump. Why is this man ring-fenced? And why were you huffing and puffing yourself? Are we supposed to pretend 'The Emperor is not Naked'?
You complain that a skeptics forum isn't denouncing Boris Johnson for everything including his state of dress to his way of speaking....?

Well, a skeptic's forum should proceed on the basis of fact, not on the basis of emotional rants fuelled by personal and political predjudice. Whilst I accept that such personal and political predjudice is regrettably common in a number of the subforums, I suggest adding to it is counterproductive.
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Old 7th February 2021, 10:54 AM   #151
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THe weird thing is that most of the people she's ranting at agree with her assessment of Johnson.
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Old 7th February 2021, 01:29 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
You complain that a skeptics forum isn't denouncing Boris Johnson for everything including his state of dress to his way of speaking....?
And then when queried on it, since many, if not all, here have been very critical, talks about something completely different, namely what the BBC are saying about Johnson.
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Ezekiel 23:20
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Old 7th February 2021, 02:46 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
THe weird thing is that most of the people she's ranting at agree with her assessment of Johnson.
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
And then when queried on it, since many, if not all, here have been very critical, talks about something completely different, namely what the BBC are saying about Johnson.
However few, if any, have reached the level of complete and utter personal vituperation of Boris Johnson as a person as well as a politician as has been exhibited by Vixen.
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Communism actively works against the fundamental urge of the human animal to survive and prosper, even at the expense of others, whilst Nazism relies on that urge.
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Old 7th February 2021, 03:09 PM   #154
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I'm content to let Vixen do my dirty work on that one.
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Old 7th February 2021, 03:43 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
However few, if any, have reached the level of complete and utter personal vituperation of Boris Johnson as a person as well as a politician as has been exhibited by Vixen.
I'm perfectly happy to vituperate Johnson as a politician, person or professional. And seeing as my one yellow card came from giving Vixen some honest feedback.. This is purely about Johnson. His public & private moral standards would have been absolutely unthinkable (if discovered) in a senior political figure less than a decade ago.

Hell, even his name is fake, he has more faces than my teenage D&D dice collection.
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Old 8th February 2021, 04:07 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I'm perfectly happy to vituperate Johnson as a politician, person or professional. And seeing as my one yellow card came from giving Vixen some honest feedback.. This is purely about Johnson. His public & private moral standards would have been absolutely unthinkable (if discovered) in a senior political figure less than a decade ago.

Hell, even his name is fake, he has more faces than my teenage D&D dice collection.
And yet I'd prefer him to some sartorially elegant goody twoshoes with a quick and clever way with words. Those are the type I always feel are in position because they simply show well.
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Those who are most fanatical in their condemnation of others are often mortally afraid that, in their deepest subconcious, they agree with those who they are condemning.

Communism actively works against the fundamental urge of the human animal to survive and prosper, even at the expense of others, whilst Nazism relies on that urge.
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Old 8th February 2021, 04:27 AM   #157
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Rather than being in a position because they lied to get there and were sacked from several previous positions because of their telling lies?
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Old 8th February 2021, 06:25 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Matt Hancock has heroically tried to do his best. Unfortunately, he and his fellow cabinet are stymied by a control freak centrist Prime Minister [ . . .]
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Johnson, a control freak? What on earth do you think that term means?
Also, "centrist"?
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Old 8th February 2021, 06:30 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sunak did well with his early economic package and furlough plans. His eat-out-to help-out showed his eagerness for the pandemic to be over and to restart the economy
. . . is one of the reasons why the infection case load is only now dropping to levels that are still very far north of anything that was even in the cabinet's worst nightmares seven months ago.
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Old 8th February 2021, 06:44 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
. . . is one of the reasons why the infection case load is only now dropping to levels that are still very far north of anything that was even in the cabinet's worst nightmares seven months ago.
The eat out to help out scheme ended 31st August. The infection rates didn't start to rise significantly until well into September, so a peripheral reason if at all.

Of course you might say that anything short of shutting all pubs, clubs, restaurants, and every other place where people meet, completely and for the foreseeable future is a reason for an increase in cases - and I'd agree in principle, but was that a viable proposition in the summer when the infection rates were low?
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Communism actively works against the fundamental urge of the human animal to survive and prosper, even at the expense of others, whilst Nazism relies on that urge.
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