Moderated: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[Emily's Cat]

Discussion continued from here. As is usual the split point is arbitrary and participants are free to quote from previous parts of this thread. But please use your best endeavours to stick to your MA when composing and submitting your posts.

Posted By:Agatha

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

There are no actual concerns here, just "what if" scenarios and slippery slopes.

They are all things that are ALREADY happening.

[Boudicca90]

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Suppose these girls want to keep their cisgender male classmates out of the same room, for the same reasons. Should that also be termed prejudicial?

This kind of argument has been used many times before in this thread and no, it wouldn't be. I have never argued for males (either cisgender or transgender) to be given access to the same facilities as females, only that transgender females aren't excluded by cisgender females.

[d4m10n]

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

This kind of argument has been used many times before in this thread and no, it wouldn't be.

Why not, though? Why is it okay (in your view) for the girls to discriminate based on gender but not genitals?

[Boudicca90]

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Why not, though? Why is it okay (in your view) for the girls to discriminate based on gender but not genitals?

Because genitals do not determine gender, as I have stated before. A female/woman can have a penis and a male/man can have a vulva.

[Rolfe]

That's a classic begging of the question. These facilities, when set up, were segregated by sex. You have given no explanation at all why you suddenly insist they should be segregated by "gender", other than your own personal feelings.

[Boudicca90]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Paranoid and delusional fantasies, eh?

females don't have the right to prevent males from looking at them when they're naked
http://www.adfmedia.org/files/SPP_Or...ntoDismiss.pdf
Judge Alonso concludes that young girls have no right to visual privacy - they have no right to prevent males from looking at them naked without their consent. That is pretty much equivalent to legalizing peeing toms and voyeurism.

nor will females have any right to object if a male exposes their penis to a female
The law came down on the side of Colleen Brenna, and sided with that person's right to have her penis viewable by minor females in the changing room, regardless of whether those girls wanted to see it. Pretty much legalizing flashing and exhibitionism.

Females will certainly not have a right to compete in sports fairly.
Well, Biden just took care of that, didn't he?

they won't have the right to fair representation in politics or to fully participate in the economy on equal footing.
NY has a completely untransitioned transwoman as the "female" representative, supposedly to uphold the needs and interests of female constituents. A few female seats in the UK have been taken by transwomen, which reduces the representation of females in politics. A transwoman was named the most successful female CEO. Eddie Izzard was named the funniest female comedian.

They won't even have the right to be reasonably protected from sexual assault in prison, because the won't have the right to expect that penises won't be present.
California has led the way with that one, allowing transwomen to be placed in female prisons on the basis of their self-identification. Canada has done the same, and also the UK. There've already been several cases of female prisoners' being raped by testicle-having prostate bearer's penises as a result.

So... tell me again how my view of things that have already happened and are continuing to happen are "paranoid and delusional"?

These are your very one-sided interpretations of these events.

[Louden Wilde]

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

This kind of argument has been used many times before in this thread and no, it wouldn't be. I have never argued for males (either cisgender or transgender) to be given access to the same facilities as females, only that transgender females aren't excluded by cisgender females.

You do not understand what 'female' means....

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

Because genitals do not determine gender, as I have stated before. A female/woman can have a penis and a male/man can have a vulva.

That's not actually an answer.

[d4m10n]

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

Because genitals do not determine gender, as I have stated before.

Stipulated, but why is it okay to discriminate against just one of these unchosen personal characteristics?

[Joe Random]

A perfect example of why I genuinely feel this issue will never be fully resolved (either here or in meatspace). When the phrase "a female can have a penis" is uttered unironically then one side is discussing from a PoV so utterly divorced from reality that sane (let alone productive) conversation won't be possible. If someone truly believes that a female can have a penis there is no amount of reason capable of cutting through the brain-fog necessary to hold that belief.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

This kind of argument has been used many times before in this thread and no, it wouldn't be. I have never argued for males (either cisgender or transgender) to be given access to the same facilities as females, only that transgender females aren't excluded by cisgender females.

Again... How are we supposed to distinguish between a transgirl and cisboy?

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

Because genitals do not determine gender, as I have stated before. A female/woman can have a penis and a male/man can have a vulva.

This is false. A female cannot have a penis, a male cannot have a vulva. Not a real one at least.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

These are your very one-sided interpretations of these events.

So we've gone from "paranoid and delusional" to "well, that's just your interpretation".

These are things that are already actually happening. They are neither paranoid nor delusional. They are very real. And they have very real negative consequences for females.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Joe Random

A perfect example of why I genuinely feel this issue will never be fully resolved (either here or in meatspace). When the phrase "a female can have a penis" is utter unironically then one side is discussing from a PoV so utterly divorced from reality that sane (let alone productive) conversation won't be possible. If someone truly believes that a female can have a penis there is no amount of reason capable of cutting through the brain-fog necessary to hold that belief.

That link to the article comparing creationism to sex-denialism kinda has a point.

[Joe Random]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

That link to the article comparing creationism to sex-denialism kinda has a point.

I thought the link was to a video so I skipped it. I see now it's a transcript, so off to read ...

[Boudicca90]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

So we've gone from "paranoid and delusional" to "well, that's just your interpretation".

These are things that are already actually happening. They are neither paranoid nor delusional. They are very real. And they have very real negative consequences for females.

I'm saying that these are for the most part good decisions for trans equality, and you interpret it differently.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by Joe Random

I thought the link was to a video so I skipped it. I see now it's a transcript, so off to read ...

I've just read it. It's very good. I appreciate the last paragraph more than most, in a queasy sort of way.

[Sherkeu]

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Why not, though? Why is it okay (in your view) for the girls to discriminate based on gender but not genitals?

Because it fits her own needs.

Boudicca must not know that in every 30 person locker room of youth girls, there are very likely at least 3 or 4 who experience sexual assault from a male, usually known to them. They often develop PTSD.

Their mental health and trauma doesn't matter to Boudicca because she doesn't even know it exists, how her presence may be a trigger, and actually believes that she is the one who needs to be affirmed by THEM...not knowing the severe damage it can cause.

Boudicca won't even concede for transgirls to use a separate single space area to alleviate the stress it causes on some of these females- again, because she doesn't know about it or, if she does, does not consider it as important as her own needs. She stated that these cases are female girls being discriminatory to transpersons instead of even considering other options like them coping and avoiding reliving a reminder of their trauma again and again and again.
No wonder many girls might just choose NOT to use those types of co-ed rooms, or may even change schools. I think most parents might do it quietly, or the girl will feign some drastic need to leave. Anything to get out of it with the least confrontation which could be just more triggering. That's why a lot of these cases don't get reported or brought to court. That process is horrible too.
They are statistically certain to exist in most of these spaces. There will be abuse survivors trying to cope while others yell at them for being transphobic. They might not have the courage to even say why they cant cope.

If you think this is anecdote, just look at stats, though not every girl is affected the same. Sometimes stats use rape, attempted rape, or other types of assault. Some abuse is way worse than others and I'm not going into it. She can look for herself to see. There may be 6 in the room, and there may be none and they will have reactions unique to themselves.

These spaces are important to them and some girls are frankly not going to handle a male body in their changing space very well. If it is a family member abusing them, this may be the only safe space they know.
The reaction may depend on the personality of that trans person though, perhaps if they were friends beforehand, and how caring and connected the male-bodied person is or can appreciate the reality of those issues to offer appropriate consideration of the girl's absolute need to feel safe there. Many of the other girls also won't know. At this age it is pretty secret and often shameful so they may say different reasons for their actions to not want to be in that space. Even adult women do this. Shame lasts a long time.

Hopefully it is just simple ignorance on the topic.
Maybe she will read a bit about it and find out more about girl's lives.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

I'm saying that these are for the most part good decisions for trans equality, and you interpret it differently.

Good decisions for trans equality, bad decisions for females. I suppose that's a matter of "interpretation"

Still neither paranoid nor delusional though.

Are you walking back your prior claim that this is all in the heads of females? Would you rather clarify your position to be clearer that it's a matter of you not caring that these policies harm females?

[Emily's Cat]

I do find the goalpost shifting to be... interesting, I suppose.

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

Once again, these paranoid and delusional fantasies of a dystopian future for cisgender women are completely unfounded.

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

There are no actual concerns here, just "what if" scenarios and slippery slopes.

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

These are your very one-sided interpretations of these events.

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

I'm saying that these are for the most part good decisions for trans equality, and you interpret it differently.

[Boudicca90]

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

Because it fits her own needs.

Boudicca must not know that in every 30 person locker room of youth girls, there are very likely at least 3 or 4 who experience sexual assault from a male, usually known to them. They often develop PTSD.

Their mental health and trauma doesn't matter to Boudicca because she doesn't even know it exists, how her presence may be a trigger, and actually believes that she is the one who needs to be affirmed by THEM...not knowing the severe damage it can cause.

Boudicca won't even concede for transgirls to use a separate single space area to alleviate the stress it causes on some of these females- again, because she doesn't know about it or, if she does, does not consider it as important as her own needs. She stated that these cases are female girls being discriminatory to transpersons instead of even considering other options like them coping and avoiding reliving a reminder of their trauma again and again and again.
No wonder many girls might just choose NOT to use those types of co-ed rooms, or may even change schools. I think most parents might do it quietly, or the girl will feign some drastic need to leave. Anything to get out of it with the least confrontation which could be just more triggering. That's why a lot of these cases don't get reported or brought to court. That process is horrible too.
They are statistically certain to exist in most of these spaces. There will be abuse survivors trying to cope while others yell at them for being transphobic. They might not have the courage to even say why they cant cope.

If you think this is anecdote, just look at stats, though not every girl is affected the same. Sometimes stats use rape, attempted rape, or other types of assault. Some abuse is way worse than others and I'm not going into it. She can look for herself to see. There may be 6 in the room, and there may be none and they will have reactions unique to themselves.

These spaces are important to them and some girls are frankly not going to handle a male body in their changing space very well. If it is a family member abusing them, this may be the only safe space they know.
The reaction may depend on the personality of that trans person though, perhaps if they were friends beforehand, and how caring and connected the male-bodied person is or can appreciate the reality of those issues to offer appropriate consideration of the girl's absolute need to feel safe there. Many of the other girls also won't know. At this age it is pretty secret and often shameful so they may say different reasons for their actions to not want to be in that space. Even adult women do this. Shame lasts a long time.

Hopefully it is just simple ignorance on the topic.
Maybe she will read a bit about it and find out more about girl's lives.

I am very much aware of all of that, and have a lot of sympathy for those girls and women. Many of my female friends (both cis and trans) have been sexually assaulted before and I know the trauma they go through because they speak to me about it. It's also a high likelihood it would happen to me now as well, which is why I've had to learn to be more careful and cautious around men I'm not familiar with. Hell, I've already made some decisions around men that would have put me in danger and I didn't realize it until later.

But we are not men, and shouldn't be judged as men, or as a gateway for men to intrude into spaces they are not welcome. And experiencing trauma doesn't give anyone a license to inflict trauma on others as a protective measure.

[d4m10n]

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

Their mental health and trauma doesn't matter to Boudicca because she doesn't even know it exists, how her presence may be a trigger, and actually believes that she is the one who needs to be affirmed by THEM...not knowing the severe damage it can cause.

If she passes and keeps a towel on, perhaps not. A passable trans man (also with a towel on) likely would, though. Not seeing a bright line rule which will make everyone feel safe here.

[Boudicca90]

Originally Posted by d4m10n

If she passes and keeps a towel on, perhaps not. A passable trans man (also with a towel on) likely would, though. Not seeing a bright line rule which will make everyone feel safe here.

This is a good point.

If I'm in a women's locker room or spa I always keep my lower half covered out of respect for the other women there, and I'm passable enough that I am seen as a woman as long as nobody knows I have a penis. But a passable trans man keeping his lower half covered would be rightfully seen as a man and I would imagine there would be an issue there.

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

Because genitals do not determine gender, as I have stated before. A female/woman can have a penis and a male/man can have a vulva.

Oh FSM, please save us from this utter poppycock!

[Sherkeu]

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

Because genitals do not determine gender, as I have stated before. A female/woman can have a penis and a male/man can have a vulva.

Yes. We have read that most trans persons don't go all the way with the SRS surgeries, for various reasons. So that's certainly would not a woman make. I'll assume invasive surgery can be dealt with, or not, later on.

Let's say d4m10n finally leaves his man closet and admits that he has been a woman all along. His struggles with this are over and he is 100% sure of it.
She likes the name Judi and she is already used to it because she looks just like Jude Law (but more of the current off-season Jude, and without any of his cash)

Judi asks for your advice on the things she needs to do now and moving forward. She hates this Covid weight and wants to sign up asap at the "Women's Gym" down the road.

What advice do you give her on her next steps? What minimal actions does she need to do before signing up at "Women's Gym"??
This is the current Judi:

[Joe Random]

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

Yes. We have read that most trans persons don't go all the way with the SRS surgeries, for various reasons. Given. So let's move on....

Let's say d4m10n finally leaves his man closet and admits that he has been a woman all along. His struggles with this are over and he is 100% sure of it.
She likes the name Judi and she is already used to it because she looks just like Jude Law (but has none of that kind of cash value)

Judi asks for your advice on the things she needs to do now and moving forward. She hates this Covid weight and wants to sign up asap at the "Women's Gym" down the road.

What advice do you give her on her next steps? What minimal actions does she need to do before signing up there?
This is the current Judi:

Her bra strap is showing and she doesn't seem to care - 1/10, would not bang.

[Boudicca90]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Good decisions for trans equality, bad decisions for females. I suppose that's a matter of "interpretation"

Still neither paranoid nor delusional though.

Are you walking back your prior claim that this is all in the heads of females? Would you rather clarify your position to be clearer that it's a matter of you not caring that these policies harm females?

No, I'm saying that these policies don't harm females at all. Rather they benefit transgender females, but not at the expense of cisgender ones.

[Manger Douse]

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

No, I'm saying that these policies don't harm females at all. Rather they benefit transgender females, but not at the expense of cisgender ones.

We know what your saying - the problem is you've been given evidence that you're wrong

[d4m10n]

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

This is the current Judi

[rdwight]

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

Boudicca must not know that in every 30 person locker room of youth girls, there are very likely at least 3 or 4 who experience sexual assault from a male, usually known to them. They often develop PTSD.

When I first started trying to figure out a stance on these issues, one of the things I wanted to see were rates of things like sexual assault/violence/murder on trans since many of the measures put forward to begin with were in regards to physical safety. While it is hard to really get completely accurate stats, it was surprising to me that trans rates were basically falling in line with women in a lot of categories. Not to overgeneralize but the reaction to the risks to transgenders is weird when you consider the status quo allowed for women.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

But we are not men, and shouldn't be judged as men, or as a gateway for men to intrude into spaces they are not welcome.

How do you, personally, distinguish between a transwoman who isn't passing and a cisman?

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

If I'm in a women's locker room or spa I always keep my lower half covered out of respect for the other women there, and I'm passable enough that I am seen as a woman as long as nobody knows I have a penis. But a passable trans man keeping his lower half covered would be rightfully seen as a man and I would imagine there would be an issue there.

As I've said before, you personally are not someone I see as a risk.

What should we do about those that do NOT keep covered out of respect for the women here?

What do we do about those that are NOT remotely close to passing?

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

No, I'm saying that these policies don't harm females at all. Rather they benefit transgender females, but not at the expense of cisgender ones.

The girls who have been told that they don't have a choice about whether or not they are seen by a penis-haver while naked haven't been harmed? Would you consider it harm to you if you were told that you have no choice and men were free to look at you while you're naked whether you like it or not?

The female prisoners who were raped by the penises of transwomen placed in their cells with them weren't harmed? Would you consider it harm to you if you were raped by a cisman placed in a confined area with you against your will?

[JoeMorgue]

The are only two possible questions are:

1. To what degree do women... err I guess say deserve ("deserve" isn't exactly the right word and has connotations of entitlement I'm not trying to put across, but something like that) spaces kept separate from men for purpose of safety, security, and dignity.

2. How do we define "woman" for the purposes of applying point 1.

The problem is both of those questions have been declared "Oh dear God how dare you even ask, you not only have to agree with me but you have to see it as so completely obvious as to not even be worth asking.."

So what are we supposed to talk about? Hardshell versus softshell tacos? (Hardsell, softshell tacos are burritos that didn't commit and I will die on that hill.)

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Hardsell, softshell tacos are burritos that didn't commit and I will die on that hill.

I'll get my bow...

[Joe Random]

"I'm telling you it's a taco. I don't care that your bigoted vision sees a sausage roll, it's every bit a taco in all the ways that really count. Stop mis-fooding me!"

[JoeMorgue]

And again I will ask then what is the problem with just segregating bathrooms, locker rooms, and sports by genitalia then? Penis and vaginas demarcation, drop male/female and man/woman all together.

That seems like it would solve the problem yet very few people are really seeming to jump on it.

[theprestige]

The biggest progress made in installment 5 of this thread was apparently that we convinced Boudicca to use "female" where the rest of us would use "woman". Almost certainly to further deny and erase the biological facts and the distinction between biology and social construct.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

And again I will ask then what is the problem with just segregating bathrooms, locker rooms, and sports by genitalia then? Penis and vaginas demarcation, drop male/female and man/woman all together.

That seems like it would solve the problem yet very few people are really seeming to jump on it.

You know it doesn't seem like it would solve the problem.

The problem is that transwomen want to perform womanhood, but medical and surgical transition is expensive and risky. Even under an NHS programme, it would still not be a trivial thing that anyone can do on a weekend. And a lot of transwomen may have good reasons for not doing that anyway.

Segregating by genitalia tells transwomen that their feelings and needs aren't valid unless they've actually gone under the knife. That doesn't seem fair.

Remember, the solution can't just be the easiest solution for the curmudgeons and the unreconstructed reactionary conservatives. It also has to honor the premise, needs, and feelings of transsexuals.

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by theprestige

You know it doesn't seem like it would solve the problem.

Of course it wouldn't, I fully know that.

I'm saying it everyone in this discussion was being honest that would solve the problem because it gives everyone* what they are claiming they want.

(*Well I mean as far as the women and the transwomen are concerned. I'm still not happy, but it's been made clear that I don't have a voice in this discussion.)