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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 12th February 2021, 10:22 AM   #41
xjx388
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The are only two possible questions are:

1. To what degree do women... err I guess say deserve ("deserve" isn't exactly the right word and has connotations of entitlement I'm not trying to put across, but something like that) spaces kept separate from men for purpose of safety, security, and dignity.

2. How do we define "woman" for the purposes of applying point 1.

The problem is both of those questions have been declared "Oh dear God how dare you even ask, you not only have to agree with me but you have to see it as so completely obvious as to not even be worth asking.."

So what are we supposed to talk about? Hardshell versus softshell tacos? (Hardsell, softshell tacos are burritos that didn't commit and I will die on that hill.)
Don't get this Mexican (well, half-Mexican) started on tacos! The truth is that hardshell and softshell are both are correct forms of the taco, which is anything put in a folded tortillia, either corn or flour. A burrito is really just a bigger, more elaborate taco: anything wrapped in a, usually larger, usually flour tortilla. It's tacos all the way down!

In any case, you raise a good point. We aren't allowed to question an individual's definition of themselves or else we are bigoted butt-heads. I think we all want people to feel comfortable in their identities and sense of self, but not at the expense of other people. It's not bigotry, it's attempting to allow everyone, trans or cis, the same comfort and dignity.
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Old 12th February 2021, 10:34 AM   #42
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Quote:
Legislation in Georgia introduced to create genitalia assessment boards to investigate student athletes’ reproductive organs, secondary sex characteristics, and chromosomes to enforce sex segregated sports in violation of federal law. #gapol h/t
@mwilsonGA
https://legis.ga.gov/legislation/59505
https://twitter.com/AnthonyMKreis/st...12223962951682

Examining children's genitalia, ya know, for safety.
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Old 12th February 2021, 10:52 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
https://twitter.com/AnthonyMKreis/st...12223962951682

Examining children's genitalia, ya know, for safety.
Maybe they can hire Jessica Yaniv.
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Old 12th February 2021, 10:57 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Don't get this Mexican (well, half-Mexican) started on tacos! The truth is that hardshell and softshell are both are correct forms of the taco, which is anything put in a folded tortillia, either corn or flour. A burrito is really just a bigger, more elaborate taco: anything wrapped in a, usually larger, usually flour tortilla. It's tacos all the way down!

In any case, you raise a good point. We aren't allowed to question an individual's definition of themselves or else we are bigoted butt-heads. I think we all want people to feel comfortable in their identities and sense of self, but not at the expense of other people. It's not bigotry, it's attempting to allow everyone, trans or cis, the same comfort and dignity.
Taco related:
So, I was in Toluca a few years back, and one day we went out for lunch to an authentic place, i.e. one where there weren't any Anglos eating. It was definitely a place for locals. A "taco", was a tortilla, flat, with a pile of stuff in the middle. The "stuff" was generally ground meat and shredded cheese. You could fold it yourself and eat it, but it was served just sitting there on your plate.

A "quesadilla" was exactly the same thing, but smaller.

And you could order a "quesadilla" "sin queso". That made no sense to me.

Is this how a "taco" would normally be served, and doesn't a quesadilla kind of imply that there ought to be queso? What't the explanation for this.
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Old 12th February 2021, 11:03 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
The girls who have been told that they don't have a choice about whether or not they are seen by a penis-haver while naked haven't been harmed?
I think this is the big question.

I have framed it as a fear of sexual assault. LondonJohn recently said that in order to justify the exclusion of transwomen you would have to demonstrate an increased risk of sexual assault.

Is that really the case, though. Is "modesty", quite apart from sexual assault, a valid lived condition. Is it natural to feel anxiety when naked in the presence of the opposite sex? I strongly suspect it is, and that the degree of anxiety is much greater for females than for males.

Obviously, some exceptions apply, but in general, people, especially females, are anxious about displaying their bodies to the opposite sex? Is that, all by itself, harm? I'm inclined to believe that it is. At the very least, I decided a long time ago that I would support the people who wanted to be protected from that situation.
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Old 12th February 2021, 11:24 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I think this is the big question.

I have framed it as a fear of sexual assault. LondonJohn recently said that in order to justify the exclusion of transwomen you would have to demonstrate an increased risk of sexual assault.

Is that really the case, though. Is "modesty", quite apart from sexual assault, a valid lived condition. Is it natural to feel anxiety when naked in the presence of the opposite sex? I strongly suspect it is, and that the degree of anxiety is much greater for females than for males.

Obviously, some exceptions apply, but in general, people, especially females, are anxious about displaying their bodies to the opposite sex? Is that, all by itself, harm? I'm inclined to believe that it is. At the very least, I decided a long time ago that I would support the people who wanted to be protected from that situation.
It's pretty simple.

We would be horrified to have a camera in our bathroom stall, a peeping tom (or tomasita...anyone at all is creepy!) at our window as we undress, and a man under a staircase looking "upskirt", or even those 'flashers' who get off on exposing their genitals in public.

None of these are actually touching or harming us physically, but most women would feel VERY violated. And these are all criminal offenses.

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Old 12th February 2021, 11:26 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I think this is the big question.

I have framed it as a fear of sexual assault. LondonJohn recently said that in order to justify the exclusion of transwomen you would have to demonstrate an increased risk of sexual assault.

Is that really the case, though. Is "modesty", quite apart from sexual assault, a valid lived condition. Is it natural to feel anxiety when naked in the presence of the opposite sex? I strongly suspect it is, and that the degree of anxiety is much greater for females than for males.

Obviously, some exceptions apply, but in general, people, especially females, are anxious about displaying their bodies to the opposite sex? Is that, all by itself, harm? I'm inclined to believe that it is. At the very least, I decided a long time ago that I would support the people who wanted to be protected from that situation.
Is it really about the opposite sex, or is rather a broader concern of modesty in front of any person that might find their nudity titillating?

Controversies about gay and lesbian students in sex segregated locker rooms were common in the recent past.

Quote:
The exchange would lead to Ashly’s expulsion from gym class, and weeks of taunts and insults by classmates about her acknowledged lesbianism -- actions that at least one state official said were probably a violation of the Education Code.

...


One gay rights activist said she was not shocked by the incident, and that gyms and locker rooms are often scenes of the most difficult confrontations for gay and lesbian students.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...n18-story.html


I don't dispute that modesty is a real concern. The assumption that sex segregated spaces achieve this modesty is obviously flawed. Being in a single sex atmosphere does not eliminate the the risk of being viewed by lustful eyes. There are better ways to protect modesty, such as adding individual privacy screens.
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Old 12th February 2021, 11:38 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
https://twitter.com/AnthonyMKreis/st...12223962951682

Examining children's genitalia, ya know, for safety.
I don't get it. If you wanted to test it, surely you'd just do it as part of a doping test using blood and/or urine. Genitals don't tell you anything useful for sports.
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Old 12th February 2021, 11:39 AM   #49
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That's why I asked earlier how this concept was playing out in cultures that were more open about nudity, public bathing, etc.

Again my point is not to prove either side wrong or gotcha anyone, but all of our data points are coming from a single cultural source which treats "bathroom, changing, bathing is a private thing" is the default.

Like... which Nude Beach does the transwoman go to? See how silly of a question that is?
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Old 12th February 2021, 11:39 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And again I will ask then what is the problem with just segregating bathrooms, locker rooms, and sports by genitalia then? Penis and vaginas demarcation, drop male/female and man/woman all together.

That seems like it would solve the problem yet very few people are really seeming to jump on it.
Honestly, I think it's the "let's check your pants" aspect that might be a bit cringy.

Realistically, I already said this is probably acceptable for most people. I can almost guarantee, however, that it won't be acceptable to the TRAs for the exact same reason that they won't accept any other segregation based on sex.
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Old 12th February 2021, 11:41 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The biggest progress made in installment 5 of this thread was apparently that we convinced Boudicca to use "female" where the rest of us would use "woman". Almost certainly to further deny and erase the biological facts and the distinction between biology and social construct.
I also think that the most unexpected turn in Volume 5 was the unironic claim that the trans lobby organizations are actually covert anti-trans activists trying to make trans people look bad.
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Old 12th February 2021, 11:42 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And again I will ask then what is the problem with just segregating bathrooms, locker rooms, and sports by genitalia then? Penis and vaginas demarcation, drop male/female and man/woman all together.

That seems like it would solve the problem yet very few people are really seeming to jump on it.
People could be offended by the signs on the doors?
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Old 12th February 2021, 11:43 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
(*Well I mean as far as the women and the transwomen are concerned. I'm still not happy, but it's been made clear that I don't have a voice in this discussion.)
I can't figure out what would make you happy anyway. It kind of seems like your version of "happy" is when everyone else just stops talking about the topic?
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Old 12th February 2021, 11:44 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I can't figure out what would make you happy anyway.
We've covered it. You might not agree with it, but don't pretend like I haven't made my point.
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Old 12th February 2021, 11:53 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
I don't get it. If you wanted to test it, surely you'd just do it as part of a doping test using blood and/or urine. Genitals don't tell you anything useful for sports.
Yeah, both sides of this arent exactly being honest.

The law basically says "you must be biologically male for this sport team" and "you must be biologically female for this sport team", And it states that "gender= biological sex" for the purposes of sport.

But then they have this waiver to that so that students can petition that requirement, and then a 3-person panel of physicians review the petition to determine how to proceed.
This almost seems like a throw in waiver for intersex or 'indeterminate'. Or maybe it is legally required. There is also a provision to file an injunction if the student feels their 'opportunity' is denied.


Just read it...
https://www.legis.ga.gov/legislation/59505
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Old 12th February 2021, 11:54 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I think this is the big question.

I have framed it as a fear of sexual assault. LondonJohn recently said that in order to justify the exclusion of transwomen you would have to demonstrate an increased risk of sexual assault.

Is that really the case, though. Is "modesty", quite apart from sexual assault, a valid lived condition. Is it natural to feel anxiety when naked in the presence of the opposite sex? I strongly suspect it is, and that the degree of anxiety is much greater for females than for males.

Obviously, some exceptions apply, but in general, people, especially females, are anxious about displaying their bodies to the opposite sex? Is that, all by itself, harm? I'm inclined to believe that it is. At the very least, I decided a long time ago that I would support the people who wanted to be protected from that situation.
It's probably some modesty, as well as some fear of sexual assault.

But I think it's even more core than that: It's the removal of consent.

If you go to a nude beach, you go knowing that there will be naked people there, of both sexes. You know that you will see their bits, and they will be able to see yours. You are not forced to go to a nude beach, you have the agency to decide that your don't want to see them, or have them see you. By going to the beach, you are tacitly consenting to see and be seen.

With sex-segregated restrooms and changing rooms, there is similarly implied consent. You know beforehand that there will be naked people there of the same sex as you. You know that your bits may be seen by someone else who has the same kind of bits, and vice versa.

In school settings, this is semi-consensual. In a lot of cases, the minors involved have to use the changing rooms, and it is generally deemed acceptable because you're only going to be exposed to others with the same bits as you. And for those who are more modest, there are often ways to minimize their exposure to the eyes of others, and to avoid looking at other people's bodies. But it's still an expectation that the other people in the room will be of the same sex.

Now the rules have changed. Now young girls are being told that they have no choice, and that they can be viewed by members of the opposite sex without their consent - that they have no right to refuse to consent.

It comes back to the comment mentioned way back. Having the transgirl agree to always keep their genitals covered is only half the problem. It doesn't address the fact that none of the females who are required to use that changing room have not given consent to have their naked bodies viewed by a person of the opposite sex. "Can she cover her eyes?"

They were told that their lack of consent is bigotry.

This is, by the way, the same argument being used against lesbians who do not wish to engage in romantic liaisons with transwomen who have penises. They're being told that their lack of consent to sex with a penis is bigotry.
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Old 12th February 2021, 12:01 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And again I will ask then what is the problem with just segregating bathrooms, locker rooms, and sports by genitalia then?
Ask yourself the same question from the perspective of a trans man who passes very convincingly as male. Think about all the awkward convos, having to constantly explain what you're not packing in your pants.
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Old 12th February 2021, 12:03 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Ask yourself the same question from the perspective of a trans man who passes very convincingly as male. Think about all the awkward convos.
*Shrugs* Again the whole "magically so perfect as to be undetectable" trans person isn't factoring into either my own personal opinion or my accommodations for other people's.

If they pass so good you never know... then what are we talking about? I doubt me (or anyone) going into a bathroom next to another person, completing our business, and just as we are leaving hearing "HA! FOOLED YOU! YOU WERE USING THE BATHROOM WITH SOMEONE WITH DIFFERENT GENITALS THE ENTIRE TIME! YOU FEEL FOR MY ELABORATE RUSE" and then they run out giggling is really something to worry about. I'm not particularly worried transgender double blinds.

Again the whole "Segregate by Penis/Vagina" wasn't actually a serious suggestion I was proposing be applied in the real world, it was a way to make everyone put all their cards on the table as to what they actually want to be segregated from.
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Old 12th February 2021, 12:11 PM   #59
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I thought it was pretty well understood that communal dressing areas were already pretty fraught with anxiety around body consciousness and nudity.

School kids don't really like getting naked around their peers. Children don't like getting naked around adults. The whole thing is a fraught and unpleasant experience. Especially around the ages of puberty, schoolkids can be very cruel about people's bodies.

My gut instinct is that an overwhelming majority would prefer individual privacy rather than any communal arrangement. If given a realistic option, I doubt many would "consent" to being seen naked by anyone in these contexts.

Quote:
Shower stalls stay dry at most public schools

Last semester, Bracy skipped showers after his twice-a-day gym classes, preferring to freshen up with a washcloth and a dousing of BOD Man body spray. After practice in the afternoons, Marvin said he goes straight home.

"I just don't feel comfortable around all of those people — they play too much," he said.

It might seem odd that teens, who are notoriously self-conscious, would forgo a quick rinse to keep from stinking in class. But veteran educators explain that the behavior isn't that unusual in an era when people of all ages cling to their privacy.
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/health/...102-story.html

Why fight to preserve this system that is being explicitly rejected by those it is meant to serve?
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Old 12th February 2021, 12:17 PM   #60
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I agree that a push to just general more standards of privacy are a good, but I see that as more a parallel discussion to this one then a core of it.

We'll still have some forms of segregation (it doesn't touch the sports sub-issue at all for instance).

If you're on the crew of a nuclear powered sub you ain't getting anywhere the level of privacy needed for this to just not be an issue anytime real soon.
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Old 12th February 2021, 12:21 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I agree that a push to just general more standards of privacy are a good, but I see that as more a parallel discussion to this one then a core of it.

We'll still have some forms of segregation (it doesn't touch the sports sub-issue at all for instance).

If you're on the crew of a nuclear powered sub you ain't getting anywhere the level of privacy needed for this to just not be an issue anytime real soon.
Joining the military often means a general sacrifice in personal dignities and liberties. I don't think it's really applicable comparison for any normal circumstance.

Most people aren't pissing into water bottles and burning off their **** in giant diesel fires.
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Old 12th February 2021, 12:22 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Joining the military often means a general sacrifice in personal dignities and liberties.
True way more people have seen my dick then people who I wanted to see my dick, that's for sure.

But that was just an example. I don't see us as a society achieving a level of privacy to uncenter this discussion off its axis.
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Old 12th February 2021, 12:28 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
True way more people have seen my dick then people who I wanted to see my dick, that's for sure.

But that was just an example. I don't see us as a society achieving a level of privacy to uncenter this discussion off its axis.
I don't know that personal privacy, specifically in the context of gym showers and changing rooms, is really that tall of an order.

New construction is often built with individual shower stalls. Retrofitting existing buildings with privacy stalls or even cheap shower curtains isn't a huge ask.

If that story is at all representative of students today, the showers are practically unused in their current configuration. It's a failed system if that's the case.
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Old 12th February 2021, 12:31 PM   #64
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Well you have more faith in "Well they'll finally be happy when we give them what they claim they want" then I do.
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Old 12th February 2021, 12:34 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well you have more faith in "Well they'll finally be happy when we give them what they claim they want" then I do.
I don't know who "they" is in this context.

The reporting in this story I linked is pretty consistent with my schooling experience. Nobody in my middleschool gym classes ever used the communal showers during my gym classes. Nobody on my hockey teams ever did either. I'd always just deal with being sweaty and shower at home. Kids would change into fresh shirts and hose themselves down with Axe body spray.

Schoolkids are notoriously mean spirited. It should be no surprise that students would rather smell like BO covered with perfume than strip nude in the showers.
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Old 12th February 2021, 12:36 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I don't know who "they" is in this context.
Transgender people. Ya know, the topic of the thread.
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Old 12th February 2021, 12:38 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Transgender people. Ya know, the topic of the thread.
That wasn't meant as a gotcha, since I've been mentioning school kids specifically.

My understanding is that trans people don't want to be treated as some freakish "other", sent off to some broom closet or staff bathroom to be isolated from their peers. I also think they probably have a stronger sense of body anxiety than pretty much any other group.

I don't know why you think they'd be unhappy with privacy stalls going into locker rooms, so long as they weren't being singled out for special treatment.
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Old 12th February 2021, 12:43 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
That wasn't meant as a gotcha, since I've been mentioning school kids specifically.

My understanding is that trans people don't want to be treated as some freakish "other", sent off to some broom closet or staff bathroom to be isolated from their peers. I also think they probably have a stronger sense of body anxiety than pretty much any other group.

I don't know why you think they'd be unhappy with privacy stalls going into locker rooms, so long as they weren't being singled out for special treatment.
All I'm saying is if you asked every single transperson on this planet what they wanted, compiled a list, found a genie, had the genie move the slider on reality itself for every single thing they claimed they wanted to "True"... this discussion would not end. Plenty, many, perhaps even most would be satisfied, but enough wouldn't be that this discussion would continue on pretty much the same level it does now.

"I want to be a special exception to the rules because it makes feel unique" is a factor in some of this. And you can't fix that by accomodation, pretty much by definition

And yes this is true for other agents in this discussion as well, not just the trans people. I question whether a degree of "safe" for women really exists that will satisfy everyone as well.

Let's be honest here. No discussion of this level exists without a tiny fringe whose problem is "I want there to be a problem."
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Old 12th February 2021, 01:01 PM   #69
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I'm sort of done with the whole bathroom thing. It is not even the largest concern in terms of rights. It just seems to be the most common experience since everyone has to use them.

That said, so many of these kids have phones on constantly, like another attached body part, and get addicted to them, take selfies, etc...that individual privacy seems inevitable to protect against inadvertent (or potentially deliberate) exposure, no matter what genitals are in there. I feel bad for these kids today in that back in my day an embarrassing thing was over and done...now it can be FOREVER.
We have all seen those photos where a person takes a photo of something seemingly innocuous, like the coffee table they just refinished, and accidentally catches their naked form in a mirror somewhere.

My daughters school does these facebook live things this year for school speeches, performances, dance recitals, etc.... I sent them a letter asking that these be moved to a private school server and not uploaded to a public facebook page. It provides much more content control if something should happen, like a kid farting at a speech, or a wardrobe malfunction. Tender ages call for protections.

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Old 12th February 2021, 01:13 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Taco related:
So, I was in Toluca a few years back, and one day we went out for lunch to an authentic place, i.e. one where there weren't any Anglos eating. It was definitely a place for locals. A "taco", was a tortilla, flat, with a pile of stuff in the middle. The "stuff" was generally ground meat and shredded cheese. You could fold it yourself and eat it, but it was served just sitting there on your plate.

A "quesadilla" was exactly the same thing, but smaller.

And you could order a "quesadilla" "sin queso". That made no sense to me.

Is this how a "taco" would normally be served, and doesn't a quesadilla kind of imply that there ought to be queso? What't the explanation for this.
Risky Click of the Day, considering the thread subject.
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Old 12th February 2021, 01:20 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
New construction is often built with individual shower stalls. Retrofitting existing buildings with privacy stalls or even cheap shower curtains isn't a huge ask.
I attended a postsecondary military academy in Colorado during a significant stretch of my misspent youth (in the mid 90s) and about halfway through my tenure there the powers-that-be elected to retrofit the open bay showers with privacy dividers and curtains. Curiously enough, the upperclassmen almost universally disdained the curtains, having been previously conditioned to single-sex social nudity. Underclassmen nearly always opted to use the curtains, however, and I imagine personal privacy became the rule rather than the exception within a year or two.

I share this anecdote merely to say that people are surprisingly adaptable, when they need to be, even when it comes to nudity and privacy.
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Old 12th February 2021, 01:37 PM   #72
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Hey ST... You said this in a different thread:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Openly mocking trans people is common.
Can you provide some examples? I'm sure there are some out there, but I've not seen anything that I would consider to be common.

Possible exception being Yaniv, who isn't so much "mocked" as "derided as a predator".
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Old 12th February 2021, 01:45 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
I'm sort of done with the whole bathroom thing. It is not even the largest concern in terms of rights. It just seems to be the most common experience since everyone has to use them.

That said, so many of these kids have phones on constantly, like another attached body part, and get addicted to them, take selfies, etc...that individual privacy seems inevitable to protect against inadvertent (or potentially deliberate) exposure, no matter what genitals are in there. I feel bad for these kids today in that back in my day an embarrassing thing was over and done...now it can be FOREVER.
We have all seen those photos where a person takes a photo of something seemingly innocuous, like the coffee table they just refinished, and accidentally catches their naked form in a mirror somewhere.

My daughters school does these facebook live things this year for school speeches, performances, dance recitals, etc.... I sent them a letter asking that these be moved to a private school server and not uploaded to a public facebook page. It provides much more content control if something should happen, like a kid farting at a speech, or a wardrobe malfunction. Tender ages call for protections.


I agree that these threads seem to have been dominated (at least recently) by the issue of changing rooms etc.

And, lest we forget, the title - and therefore the topic - of these threads is "Discussion: Trans Women are not Women" (a title which is inherently offensive to trans people and trans rights campaigners, since it explicitly negates the very kernel of their identity, but anyhoo....).

And also - just for information dontcha know (since anything more than this would be an improper appeal to authority ) - it's probably worth noting that within the understanding of DSM5, the WHO, the UN and many major World governments, trans women are women. The only issue to sort out is quite how that rather intangible and metaphysical concept is applied in practice.
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Old 12th February 2021, 02:35 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
<...>

Possible exception being Yaniv, who isn't so much "mocked" as "derided as a predator".

Mocking Yaniv for being trans would be like having a laugh at John Wayne Gacy for his ****** clown paintings. Not exactly first in the line of concerns.
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Old 12th February 2021, 02:43 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
The girls who have been told that they don't have a choice about whether or not they are seen by a penis-haver while naked haven't been harmed? Would you consider it harm to you if you were told that you have no choice and men were free to look at you while you're naked whether you like it or not?

The female prisoners who were raped by the penises of transwomen placed in their cells with them weren't harmed? Would you consider it harm to you if you were raped by a cisman placed in a confined area with you against your will?
Issues like these have to do with the behavior of the perpetrators, what genitals they have is irrelevant. Actions like rape or invasion of privacy are wrong no matter who does it.
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Old 12th February 2021, 02:51 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
How do you, personally, distinguish between a transwoman who isn't passing and a cisman?
I would certainly view someone making no attempt at passing with skepticism (like the Jude Law example), it depends on the situation.

But "isn't passing" is different than making no attempt at it. I have many older trans female friends who don't pass because they waited too long to transition. They still make an attempt to pass, but it is still clear that they are transgender. They shouldn't be discriminated against just because HRT can only do so much and they are too poor to afford surgeries.
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Old 12th February 2021, 03:33 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Hey ST... You said this in a different thread:



Can you provide some examples? I'm sure there are some out there, but I've not seen anything that I would consider to be common.

Possible exception being Yaniv, who isn't so much "mocked" as "derided as a predator".
Sure. Google "I identify as an attack helicopter". How many hits does that get? Are you kidding me with this?

until very recently, trans people were a very common butt of jokes in mainstream entertainment. Now, it's mostly gauche in the general public, but still extremely common in bigoted circles.
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Old 12th February 2021, 03:42 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
I would certainly view someone making no attempt at passing with skepticism (like the Jude Law example), it depends on the situation.
That seems transphobic, to be honest. Why should any transsexual have to attempt to "pass" as anything other than their own self-identity?

Is gatekeeping people based on their conformity to feminine stereotypes really a goal we should be working towards?

Is that how you know you're a woman? Because you're trying to conform to some stereotype of womanhood? Of course not. Why would it make sense for other people to judge you on that basis? It's not like you'd tolerate for a moment if anyone said, "Boudicca, you aren't convincing enough, you're not trying hard enough, you don't count as a woman yet."
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Old 12th February 2021, 03:50 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
I would certainly view someone making no attempt at passing with skepticism (like the Jude Law example), it depends on the situation.

But "isn't passing" is different than making no attempt at it. I have many older trans female friends who don't pass because they waited too long to transition. They still make an attempt to pass, but it is still clear that they are transgender. They shouldn't be discriminated against just because HRT can only do so much and they are too poor to afford surgeries.
How do you, personally, distinguish between a transwoman who isn't passing and a cisman?
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Old 12th February 2021, 03:51 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That seems transphobic, to be honest. Why should any transsexual have to attempt to "pass" as anything other than their own self-identity?

Is gatekeeping people based on their conformity to feminine stereotypes really a goal we should be working towards?

Is that how you know you're a woman? Because you're trying to conform to some stereotype of womanhood? Of course not. Why would it make sense for other people to judge you on that basis? It's not like you'd tolerate for a moment if anyone said, "Boudicca, you aren't convincing enough, you're not trying hard enough, you don't count as a woman yet."
Hilarious. You clearly don't understand what transphobia is. And "transsexual" is an outdated term, fyi.

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