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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 12th February 2021, 10:04 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Apparently it isn't "more" than that, in your view of things. It's other than that. The ova and uteri aren't really significant, as best as I can tell from your statements. It's the internal concept that matters. Right?
You know, I think I am starting to see why arguing about this won't get anywhere.

Knowing you are a woman, and then also recognizing you are male is surely, for some transpersons, so disparate in thought that there is no way for them to co-exist. The identity is the important thing because that is how that person thinks of themselves. For Boudicca this is 100% a female identity. Us arguing about the body parts won't make any sense because we aren't really listening to the essential nature of the person.

What we do most of our day when we meet people is automatic gendering. We really don't need to consciously think about it. Humans are built to make these quick judgments because these signals help our survival.
We take cues from everything around us to make snap judgments. Again, most of them just go in and out of our heads without a second thought....until, something seems a bit 'off' in the pattern. Then we notice.

Boudicca notices it in other trans women too as she knows people who do not 'pass' well when looking at them. This means she also sees what we see- the male traits. However, she might understand them as 'women' because her brain is not troubled by the anomaly in the pattern.

She also must see them in herself or she would not make efforts to correct the 'error' of those birth sex traits.

Seems like there is probably some common ground here we could find.

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Old 12th February 2021, 11:15 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post



And also - just for information dontcha know (since anything more than this would be an improper appeal to authority ) - it's probably worth noting that within the understanding of DSM5, the WHO, the UN and many major World governments, trans women are women. The only issue to sort out is quite how that rather intangible and metaphysical concept is applied in practice.
Yet you can't post a single link from theses scores of medical experts saying so and were reduced to appealing to the authority of the National Office of Statistics to make your claims look legitimate

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Old 12th February 2021, 11:40 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
You know, I think I am starting to see why arguing about this won't get anywhere.

Knowing you are a woman, and then also recognizing you are male is surely, for some transpersons, so disparate in thought that there is no way for them to co-exist. The identity is the important thing because that is how that person thinks of themselves. For Boudicca this is 100% a female identity. Us arguing about the body parts won't make any sense because we aren't really listening to the essential nature of the person.
I suppose that's true. The arguments really are all about definitions, when all is said and done. We understand pretty much the nature of transpeople, and so do they. It's how to describe those natures that is problematic. Whether we call a transgender person a "man" or a "woman", or a "male" or a "female" does not change that nature.

However, I'm still not sure there's a lot of common ground. I think of myself a certain way. If that is what I call my identify, and you see me differently, what does that mean? Does it mean that you are wrong? The question of "rights" as applied to trans people and which sets of access or other societal privileges should be granted is a question of whether those access priviliges should be based on the way you see yourself, or the way other people see you.

I'm inclined to say that latter, especially in cases where other people's concepts of you are objectively measurable.
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Old 13th February 2021, 02:32 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I suppose that's true. The arguments really are all about definitions, when all is said and done. We understand pretty much the nature of transpeople, and so do they. It's how to describe those natures that is problematic. Whether we call a transgender person a "man" or a "woman", or a "male" or a "female" does not change that nature.

However, I'm still not sure there's a lot of common ground. I think of myself a certain way. If that is what I call my identify, and you see me differently, what does that mean? Does it mean that you are wrong? The question of "rights" as applied to trans people and which sets of access or other societal privileges should be granted is a question of whether those access priviliges should be based on the way you see yourself, or the way other people see you.

I'm inclined to say that latter, especially in cases where other people's concepts of you are objectively measurable.
There's always some common ground. I think posters here can talk rights, but Boudicca chimed in when we had discussed it all to death already. Round and round and round. This thread is like a Hot Wheels car that hits the loop and falls off the track over and over. So I thought maybe I'd back up and see where maybe some alignment is off at the start. (and now I want a hot wheels track...double loop!)

I think there is a tendency to immediately discount or outright deny things that might be weaponized, even if they are factually true. Separating out those arguments so they aren't so personal to the conversation might lead to some agreement on something more fundamental. Then we'll see where the whole thing falls apart.
I think my stance on certain things especially involving kids won't be changing but there could be some shared values that we never get to because of all the noise.

Of course it will only be a sliver of insight given that even inside any rights group there are internal debates, and even the same type of vitriol you'd only expect from an enemy of your cause. But we are skeptics and every sliver is a piece of the puzzle, right?

IDK. We only have one trans person here and none of us is in some powerful position to resolve or legislate, so I can listen for a bit.
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Old 13th February 2021, 02:43 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
which sets of access or other societal privileges should be granted is a question of whether those access priviliges should be based on the way you see yourself, or the way other people see you.

I'm inclined to say that latter, especially in cases where other people's concepts of you are objectively measurable.
Agreed

We make minor accommodations based on how people see themselves (insert your own religious example here), but we generally do not allow those to override the rights of others.
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Old 13th February 2021, 04:12 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Dude. You have XY genes and SRY expression. This is a hard binary divide.. My opinion isn't your problem. The opinion of your own biology is your problem.
Why is this binary divide one worth having structuring our society around?

Some people are objectively left handed, some right handed. It used to be common to "correct" left handed people.

Some people are objectively darker skin than others. It's measurable. We can test the blood of black people and determine their genetic heritage to Africa.

The question isn't whether something is an observable fact, the question is what is the societal consequence of an observable fact.

Nobody serious is contesting that there exists a difference between XX and XY chromosomes. What's being contested is that this difference is something so significant and meaningful, it's worth making sweeping societal distinctions between these populations, and whether this binary distinction is so profound it's worth overlooking the many other factors at play when it comes to defining sex and gender.

Trans people, generally speaking, don't deny the science of chromosomes.* Trans people and their allies simply state that there's way more to gender and sex than just chromosomes, and insisting there isn't is deliberately cruel and doesn't serve society well.

*Spare me the nutpicking that this comment will bring. I dont care what some fringe weirdo on Tumblr or Twitter says, they don't speak for all trans people.
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Old 13th February 2021, 04:53 AM   #127
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Everyone (including me at some times) has been arguing only about what rights trans people deserve. But there's one question nobody seems to be asking:

How do we know that these so-called trans rights are rights at all?

There are very powerful anti-trans organizations that have been pushing this list of "rights" onto the world, including onto trans people. There is no other marginalized group that has had to deal with such an indignity, of not being allowed to even compile their own list of what their rights are.

And everyone on this thread has gone to great lengths to avoid even discussing the possibility that some of the so-called trans lobbies are anti-trans.
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Old 13th February 2021, 05:28 AM   #128
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Apropos of almost nothing, I happened across this punk tune about sex and identity the other day.

[Content warning: Vulgarity and sexual themes]

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

I expect there will be some blowback; though the assertions aren't all that edgy, it does kick off with a "gender pronoun bar fight."

Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
How do we know that these so-called trans rights are rights at all?
Rights don't exist to be discovered like the law of universal gravitation, they emerge from social and legal consensus, like the laws against segregation by race.
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Old 13th February 2021, 05:57 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
You know, I think I am starting to see why arguing about this won't get anywhere.

Knowing you are a woman, and then also recognizing you are male is surely, for some transpersons, so disparate in thought that there is no way for them to co-exist. The identity is the important thing because that is how that person thinks of themselves. For Boudicca this is 100% a female identity. Us arguing about the body parts won't make any sense because we aren't really listening to the essential nature of the person.

What we do most of our day when we meet people is automatic gendering. We really don't need to consciously think about it. Humans are built to make these quick judgments because these signals help our survival.
We take cues from everything around us to make snap judgments. Again, most of them just go in and out of our heads without a second thought....until, something seems a bit 'off' in the pattern. Then we notice.

Boudicca notices it in other trans women too as she knows people who do not 'pass' well when looking at them. This means she also sees what we see- the male traits. However, she might understand them as 'women' because her brain is not troubled by the anomaly in the pattern.

She also must see them in herself or she would not make efforts to correct the 'error' of those birth sex traits.

Seems like there is probably some common ground here we could find.


Another common ground is that feminists have already dealt with the question of what is a right.

If there are locker rooms where students are expected to see each other naked, and one of the students is a trans girl, what is her right?

The claim that there is a right to use the girls' locker room is based on the unfounded -- and bizarre -- assumption that a locker room has an intrinsic positive value.

Isn't it her right to opt out of the locker room system and simply not have to change clothes in school? Why would anyone who truly supports trans rights deny her this right?

Also, everyone debating whether trans women should compete as men or as women in sports is ignoring the reason it's an issue at all. The reason is that women are expected to wear sexy outfits in sports events, and including trans women on the women's teams is a way to discourage TV-watching men from trying to get a glimpse of women's genitals as highlighted by the uniforms the women are required to wear.

If sports uniforms covered as much skin as bulkily as possible for both women's and men's teams, putting trans women on the men's team wouldn't be a problem.
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Old 13th February 2021, 06:05 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Rights don't exist to be discovered like the law of universal gravitation, they emerge from social and legal consensus, like the laws against segregation by race.
They emerge from social and legal contracts between the oppressed group and the rest of society. Transgender people have never been allowed to negotiate such a contract.
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Old 13th February 2021, 06:17 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
...everyone debating whether trans women should compete as men or as women in sports is ignoring the reason it's an issue at all. The reason is that women are expected to wear sexy outfits in sports events, and including trans women on the women's teams is a way to discourage TV-watching men from trying to get a glimpse of women's genitals as highlighted by the uniforms the women are required to wear.
We are definitely not watching the same women's sports events.

https://images.app.goo.gl/GQx2dpsM1MXWGeko6
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Old 13th February 2021, 06:35 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
We are definitely not watching the same women's sports events.

https://images.app.goo.gl/GQx2dpsM1MXWGeko6
Whether their outfits are glamorous in your or my fashion tradition is irrelevant. It's still exploitative to require women to wear short-shorts.
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Old 13th February 2021, 07:19 AM   #133
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Honestly, I cannot tell if you're trolling right now.

Their outfits look little different than those worn by the men's team.
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Old 13th February 2021, 07:22 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Honestly, I cannot tell if you're trolling right now.

Their outfits look little different than those worn by the men's team.


That's exploitative also.
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Old 13th February 2021, 07:27 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Honestly, I cannot tell if you're trolling right now.

Their outfits look little different than those worn by the men's team.
Men's sport is a global conspiracy to get women into scanty clothing. Really the whole feminist movement of the nineteenth century to allow women to play sports at all was a scam perpetrated by the patriarchy to trick women into wearing rugby shorts.

Also it should be noted that women - especially women athletes - are big dumb drones with no agency or self-awareness. If the patriarchy wants them to wear shorts, they have no real choice but to go along with it. Would never occur to them to decide for themselves what to wear.

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Old 13th February 2021, 07:40 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
Whether their outfits are glamorous in your or my fashion tradition is irrelevant. It's still exploitative to require women to wear short-shorts.

Women choose to wear comfortable athletic attire for the most unrestricted movement.
They can add some more clothing if they wanted- and they usually will if it's cold.
Some cases they cannot, like synchronized swimming, for obvious reasons.
Then again, the men in water sports are wearing speedos, so...

I feel like I have peeked into the door of some creepy part of your brain.
I hereby, by the authority of no one at all, ban you from all private female spaces.

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Old 13th February 2021, 07:44 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Men's sport is a global conspiracy to get women into scanty clothing. Really the whole feminist movement of the nineteenth century to allow women to play sports at all was a scam perpetrated by the patriarchy to trick women into wearing rugby shorts.

Also it should be noted that women - especially women athletes - are big dumb drones with no agency or self-awareness. If the patriarchy wants them to wear shorts, they have no real choice but to go along with it. Would never occur to them to decide for themselves what to wear.
It all started with the controversy of men forcing women to show their ankles. Quite titillating to the young lads!
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Old 13th February 2021, 08:28 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
Whether their outfits are glamorous in your or my fashion tradition is irrelevant. It's still exploitative to require women to wear short-shorts.
You could describe anyone paying someone else to do something the first person wants as exploitative, but thatís really stretching the definition. They are professionals. They are performing a job they agreed to, and want to do.
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Old 13th February 2021, 08:32 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
It all started with the controversy of men forcing women to show their ankles. Quite titillating to the young lads! : jaw-dropp
The real power move was giving them the vote, and letting them to vote for "reforms" themselves.
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Old 13th February 2021, 08:42 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Nobody serious is contesting that there exists a difference between XX and XY chromosomes. What's being contested is that this difference is something so significant and meaningful, it's worth making sweeping societal distinctions between these populations, and whether this binary distinction is so profound it's worth overlooking the many other factors at play when it comes to defining sex and gender.
This difference is observable, and consistent across many different elements.

The proposed alternative is to segregate by an ill-defined internal feeling.
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Old 13th February 2021, 08:43 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
There are very powerful anti-trans organizations that have been pushing this list of "rights" onto the world, including onto trans people.
Citation needed.
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Old 13th February 2021, 08:45 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post

Also, everyone debating whether trans women should compete as men or as women in sports is ignoring the reason it's an issue at all. The reason is that women are expected to wear sexy outfits in sports events
Cain has serious competition.
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Old 13th February 2021, 09:24 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
Also, everyone debating whether trans women should compete as men or as women in sports is ignoring the reason it's an issue at all. The reason is that women are expected to wear sexy outfits in sports events, and including trans women on the women's teams is a way to discourage TV-watching men from trying to get a glimpse of women's genitals as highlighted by the uniforms the women are required to wear.

If sports uniforms covered as much skin as bulkily as possible for both women's and men's teams, putting trans women on the men's team wouldn't be a problem.

I'm not sure I fully comprehend this fascinating argument.

'TV-watching men' are the ones complaining about transwomen on women's teams because it's a plot to stop them trying to get a glimpse of women's genitals?

If men couldn't do this anyway because sports uniforms were bulky, putting transwomen on the men's team wouldn't be a problem because it wouldn't be happening, or because it would happen but it wouldn't matter becasuse TV-watching men can't get to perv anyway?
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Old 13th February 2021, 09:28 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post

Also, everyone debating whether trans women should compete as men or as women in sports is ignoring the reason it's an issue at all. The reason is that women are expected to wear sexy outfits in sports events, and including trans women on the women's teams is a way to discourage TV-watching men from trying to get a glimpse of women's genitals as highlighted by the uniforms the women are required to wear.

If sports uniforms covered as much skin as bulkily as possible for both women's and men's teams, putting trans women on the men's team wouldn't be a problem.
This is the most ridiculous comment in this whole wild thread.
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Old 13th February 2021, 09:32 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Because genitals do not determine gender, as I have stated before. A female/woman can have a penis and a male/man can have a vulva.
A female by definition can not have a penis ... how is this person taken seriously at all?
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Old 13th February 2021, 09:33 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
This is the most ridiculous comment in this whole wild thread.
Indeed it is. And that is saying something as it has a lot of competition.
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Old 13th February 2021, 09:54 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
There's always some common ground. I think posters here can talk rights, but Boudicca chimed in when we had discussed it all to death already. Round and round and round. This thread is like a Hot Wheels car that hits the loop and falls off the track over and over. So I thought maybe I'd back up and see where maybe some alignment is off at the start. (and now I want a hot wheels track...double loop!)

I think there is a tendency to immediately discount or outright deny things that might be weaponized, even if they are factually true. Separating out those arguments so they aren't so personal to the conversation might lead to some agreement on something more fundamental. Then we'll see where the whole thing falls apart.
I think my stance on certain things especially involving kids won't be changing but there could be some shared values that we never get to because of all the noise.

Of course it will only be a sliver of insight given that even inside any rights group there are internal debates, and even the same type of vitriol you'd only expect from an enemy of your cause. But we are skeptics and every sliver is a piece of the puzzle, right?

IDK. We only have one trans person here and none of us is in some powerful position to resolve or legislate, so I can listen for a bit.

I think there actually is a lot of common ground being expressed in this thread.

Almost everyone who has participated in this lengthy conversation agrees people should be able to dress and "present" in whatever they want to, and that in doing so they should be free from discrimination in employment, housing, and the like. That's no small area of "common ground". I don't know if we are all 100% aligned in those areas, but we're close.

Almost everyone is willing to compromise on bathroom access, and the few that are not are more worried about slippery slopes than anything else. (And, that's not a fallacy. There's reason to believe that the slopes are indeed slippery.)

There really is a lot of common ground here, but there is also a faction that says anyone who does not 100% accept every single aspect of their position is a hateful bigot in the same mold as George Wallace and the segregationists.

It's interesting to me that we do not have any hard right, anti-trans people participating in this thread. As I occasionally mention, I listen to right wing talk radio in my car. I hear the actual hard right anti-trans position sometimes. That actual position is that being trans is both a mental illness and a perversion. For the religious, which is a lot of people, it's a sin against God. They would demand that there be absolutely no accommodation for any trans person. Some of them might put up with gender reassignment surgery, though they will mock anyone who actually does it. Others think the whole practice ought to be illegal. There's a huge difference between their positions and attitudes, and the positions and attitudes of any participants on ISF, but as far as the hard core trans rights activists are concerned, there's really no meaningful difference between those hard right positions, and your positions.

It makes compromise and finding common ground a bit rough.

As an aside, Boudicca90 is the most vocal trans person in this thread recently, but is npt the only one, including some very recent posts.
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Old 13th February 2021, 09:55 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by MisAndreG View Post
A female by definition can not have a penis ... how is this person taken seriously at all?
It is a real phenomena though, and it goes across many other beliefs where some contrary evidence leads to cognitive dissonance. Humans naturally try to avoid that and so compensate. Everyone does it but some things lead to more drastic claims than others. They are still genuine beliefs.

e.g. My sister taught 1st grade for years. One student was way behind and remedial hours weren't helping so she recommended to repeat the grade. Well, the mother of this child denied it to be true, accused my sister of all sorts of things, and then changed schools to avoid her child repeating the grade. This example is more provable, but gender is tricky. Any internal senses are impossible to confirm. For now at least.

H2g2 movie had the "Point of View" gun that let you see from another's precise perspective. We need that !!!

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Old 13th February 2021, 10:02 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Cain has serious competition.
You mean Canaan?

Yes. I think internalized religious prudishness has a lot to do with it.
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Old 13th February 2021, 10:02 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
We are definitely not watching the same women's sports events.

https://images.app.goo.gl/GQx2dpsM1MXWGeko6
I suspect his comment is a throwback to the early days of Olympic beach volleyball, and the ratings did indeed go down once bikinis were no longer mandatory, but anyone who respects women's sports thinks it was a good idea to allow the athletes to wear clothing that made them feel more comfortable.

Every other aspect of "sexy outfits" worn while competing is simply a desire to wear comfortable clothing that does not inhibit performance and allows shedding of body heat. Track stars are indeed sexy and they do show a good bit of skin while they are competing. They aren't doing it for my benefit though. It just happens to work out for both of us.
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Old 13th February 2021, 10:15 AM   #151
MisAndreG
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
It is a real phenomena though, and it goes across many other beliefs where some contrary evidence leads to cognitive dissonance. Humans naturally try to avoid that and so compensate. Everyone does it but some things lead to more drastic claims than others. They are still genuine beliefs.

e.g. My sister taught 1st grade for years. One student was way behind and remedial hours weren't helping so she recommended to repeat the grade. Well, the mother of this child denied it to be true, accused my sister of all sorts of things, and then changed schools to avoid her child repeating the grade. This example is more provable, but gender is tricky. Any internal senses are impossible to confirm. For now at least.

H2g2 movie had the "Point of View" gun that let you see from another's precise perspective. We need that !!!
I admit I am having difficulty understanding your point. Is it that people can have genuinely held beliefs that go against reality? If it is, okay, aaannnnd?

When someone tells me that females can have penises there are a number of separate but related things going on there: the person doesnít know what sex is/doesnít understand sexual development, is using a nonstandard and illegitimate definition of sex, is genuinely confused, is deliberately obtuse for political reasons, is ill-equipped to have this discussion etc etc
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Old 13th February 2021, 10:26 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by MisAndreG View Post
I admit I am having difficulty understanding your point. Is it that people can have genuinely held beliefs that go against reality? If it is, okay, aaannnnd?

When someone tells me that females can have penises there are a number of separate but related things going on there: the person doesn’t know what sex is/doesn’t understand sexual development, is using a nonstandard and illegitimate definition of sex, is genuinely confused, is deliberately obtuse for political reasons, is ill-equipped to have this discussion etc etc
My point is that having some empathy for the human condition may lead to better conversations than simply accusing a poster of being wrong- in the very scientific ways many of us are prone to do.
Why? Because it demonstrably does not work to change assumptions or opinions.

It may end in stalemate, but that's where we are now so there's only improvement to be had.

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Old 13th February 2021, 10:34 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
You mean Canaan?
No, Cain.
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Old 13th February 2021, 11:14 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
My point is that having some empathy for the human condition may lead to better conversations than simply accusing a poster of being wrong- in the very scientific ways many of us are prone to do.
Why? Because it demonstrably does not work to change assumptions or opinions.

It may end in stalemate, but that's where we are now so there's only improvement to be had.
There was a lot more empathy in the earlier installments of this thread. My position has consistently been, can we come up with a policy that honors the wants and needs of transpeople, without dismissing the wants and needs of other interest groups?

A lot of my empathy for the TRA position drained away when ST brought name-calling as a primary debate strategy, and LJ took on a woo approach to citations. What little empathy I had left evaporated when Boudicca went full "transwomen are biologically female".

Too, it's hard to maintain empathy when the counterparty lacks any. Women's concerns? Not real. Sports? Not important. Misgivings about social change? It's coming whether you like it or not, so I don't have to care if you don't.
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Old 13th February 2021, 11:22 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
My point is that having some empathy for the human condition may lead to better conversations than simply accusing a poster of being wrong- in the very scientific ways many of us are prone to do.
Why? Because it demonstrably does not work to change assumptions or opinions.

It may end in stalemate, but that's where we are now so there's only improvement to be had.
People who think females can have penises are wrong. Asking me to have empathy for a position like that is like asking me to have empathy for a person claiming the earth is flat. And if we want to talk about empathy, how about have empathy for, I donít know, actual women who donít want to be validation props for trans males like Boudicca.
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Old 13th February 2021, 11:40 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There was a lot more empathy in the earlier installments of this thread. My position has consistently been, can we come up with a policy that honors the wants and needs of transpeople, without dismissing the wants and needs of other interest groups?

A lot of my empathy for the TRA position drained away when ST brought name-calling as a primary debate strategy, and LJ took on a woo approach to citations. What little empathy I had left evaporated when Boudicca went full "transwomen are biologically female".

Too, it's hard to maintain empathy when the counterparty lacks any. Women's concerns? Not real. Sports? Not important. Misgivings about social change? It's coming whether you like it or not, so I don't have to care if you don't.
I do hear you about the dismissiveness and name-calling. I do try not to take it as a personal assault though as I see it as more of a coping strategy.

I have some experience in this with a family member with some, let's say non-factual beliefs, and also a trans woman who I knew mostly as a man. I have learned more since these situations. The first one I cannot rectify anymore. I had to disconnect totally because my involvement created more problems than it solved- I was the first responder, rescuer, and villain. I tried to convince in my normal way and it made it worse. The most loving thing I am doing for her now is not taking her calls...and that is tough to do- but I keep tabs and it works better.

It took me a while to understand that our brains were interpreting things totally different. Evidence, proof...none of that worked to solve anything.

I don't know if it is logical to even start with the legal rights arguments- or even definitions. Not if it is personal. So maybe I am missing some insight into it just like the last time (though that is a much different condition so please no one say I am equating the two...just the strategy of debate)

Maybe this forum, tame as it is compared to some others, is still too antagonistic for good honest discussions of this sort.
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Old 13th February 2021, 11:47 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by MisAndreG View Post
People who think females can have penises are wrong. Asking me to have empathy for a position like that is like asking me to have empathy for a person claiming the earth is flat. And if we want to talk about empathy, how about have empathy for, I don’t know, actual women who don’t want to be validation props for trans males like Boudicca.
I'm really just advocating for better dialogue. there are reasons for those beliefs we find hard to understand. What are they?

As for empathy for the flat-earther: Imagine you are a reporter for a newspaper or media company. They send you to do a story on a celebrity who has come out as a flat earther.
How do you approach that interview? Surely you ask some polite questions, then perhaps a bit more probing questions. You listen and take note of what you hear. You confirm that what you are interpreting is what they meant, etc... You dont go in guns blazing or the whole thing is over before it starts! And it doesnt matter if their own guns are blazing. You can decide the tone of your responses and make it happen.

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Old 13th February 2021, 12:00 PM   #158
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The entire question has been declared offensive to even ask.

What dialog are we supposed to have?
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Old 13th February 2021, 12:24 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
I'm really just advocating for better dialogue. there are reasons for those beliefs we find hard to understand. What are they?

As for empathy for the flat-earther: Imagine you are a reporter for a newspaper or media company. They send you to do a story on a celebrity who has come out as a flat earther.
How do you approach that interview? Surely you ask some polite questions, then perhaps a bit more probing questions. You listen and take note of what you hear. You confirm that what you are interpreting is what they meant, etc... You dont go in guns blazing or the whole thing is over before it starts! And it doesnt matter if their own guns are blazing. You can decide the tone of your responses and make it happen.
Apologies, but I am not getting what your point is.

Which side of the discussion do you equate to flat earthers?
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Old 13th February 2021, 12:50 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
You mean Canaan?
No, Cain.

Last edited by Aber; 13th February 2021 at 12:52 PM.
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