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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 15th February 2021, 11:10 AM   #281
JoeMorgue
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There's already so much baggage in this thread the plane is overweight and is about the crash in the Andes where we'll have to eat each other to survive so I'm hesitant to throw another bag on the baggage cart but I don't know if adding more stigma and shame to the concept of nudity is the way to go either.
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Old 15th February 2021, 11:10 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
They didn't lose to men, they lost to women. Stop trying to muddy the conversation.

Sports women who lose to actual men aren't what we are talking about here, like the Williams sisters losing to a man. That's not the issue here and accusations of "TERF" would make no sense.
Sports women regularly run slower times than sportsmen, that's what was clearly meant by lose to men - and why is that? Why do women who've expressed no opinion on transsexuality have such slower times than men?
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Old 15th February 2021, 11:20 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
https://www.athleticbusiness.com/loc...n-privacy.html

There's no need for privacy in areas where people aren't nude. People putting on their cleats or shoulder pads don't need privacy stalls.
And, now let me get this right, you don't think that sports people are ever seen naked in a dressing room.

Got it!
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Old 15th February 2021, 11:22 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
But it's not just the women you've just now mentioned losing to men, it's ALL of them losing to men - are they all TERFS to?

Why do women not run as fast as men in your opinion, if not laziness?
I think it's dishonest to say that they're using their transphobia to excuse their loss. It's not like any of them actually said, "I hate/fear transwomen, and that's why I lost this match."

They said something else entirely, which Boudicca dishonestly interprets as "because they're transphobic" for rhetorical purposes. It's just another variant on the whole "dissent is bigotry" canard that gets used to silence opposing voices without having to actually consider or address their concerns in good faith.
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Old 15th February 2021, 11:25 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Identical to weight divisions in boxing, or age classes.
I think that age can be a decent proxy for weight and skill at the young and old ends of the spectrum.

Also, I'm pretty sure that pound for pound men have more muscle mass and hit harder. So I don't think that co-ed weight classes are going to be a good answer.
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Old 15th February 2021, 11:30 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think it's dishonest to say that they're using their transphobia to excuse their loss. It's not like any of them actually said, "I hate/fear transwomen, and that's why I lost this match."



They said something else entirely, which Boudicca dishonestly interprets as "because they're transphobic" for rhetorical purposes. It's just another variant on the whole "dissent is bigotry" canard that gets used to silence opposing voices without having to actually consider or address their concerns in good faith.
I'm expecting to see Timex and the manufacturers of Olympic stopwatches any day now
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Old 15th February 2021, 11:35 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'm tempted to ask "why do you need the 'trans' qualifier if you assert you are a woman?" 'Trans' acknowledges that there is a real difference. But I'm pretty sure that must have been covered several thousand posts ago and also went nowhere.
No, there are differences between cisgender women and transgender women, but we are both subcategories of women. But those differences (like chromosomes and reproductive ability) don't mean much in terms of us both being considered women.

I tend to use it as a distinction when needed, like in this thread. I don't refer to myself as a trans woman in real life because I just want people to see me and treat me as a woman and female like all the others.
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Old 15th February 2021, 11:35 AM   #288
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I think I get it now:

"I lost to a cisman because he was male" = totally reasonable

"I lost to a transwoman because she was male" = transphobia
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Old 15th February 2021, 11:36 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
https://www.athleticbusiness.com/loc...n-privacy.html

There's no need for privacy in areas where people aren't nude. People putting on their cleats or shoulder pads don't need privacy stalls.
Almost any sport is going to require men put on a cup, so some incidental exposure is in the mix. Also if showering is needed, there's the whole going from towel to street clothes thing.

Surfing in NJ, we tend to get changed on the street, kind of half-assed having a towel around the waist and pulling things on and off. Usually good for a peep show on crowded days. I had a representative of my local law enforcement community once give me a dressing-down over some personal indiscretions that someone evidently called police over.
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Old 15th February 2021, 11:38 AM   #290
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One thing I am generally loving about this thread is the substantial amount of nonpartisan agreement. Almost everybody, left and right, agrees that transwomen are not biologically female. And almost everybody, left and right, agrees that there is no anti-trans conspiracy to promote trans interests in public policy.
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Old 15th February 2021, 11:40 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Almost any sport is going to require men put on a cup, so some incidental exposure is in the mix. Also if showering is needed, there's the whole going from towel to street clothes thing.

Surfing in NJ, we tend to get changed on the street, kind of half-assed having a towel around the waist and pulling things on and off. Usually good for a peep show on crowded days. I had a representative of my local law enforcement community once give me a dressing-down over some personal indiscretions that someone evidently called police over.
Seems to me that underwear and cups could be put on prior to exiting a shower stall.

When I played hockey players usually exited the private shower stalls at least partially dressed. The few times we were rinks at with communal showers, nobody used them and just showered at home.
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Old 15th February 2021, 11:40 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
One thing I am generally loving about this thread is the substantial amount of nonpartisan agreement. Almost everybody, left and right, agrees that transwomen are not biologically female. And almost everybody, left and right, agrees that there is no anti-trans conspiracy to promote trans interests in public policy.
Yet we are all, in our own unique ways, still being ********.
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Old 15th February 2021, 11:42 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
One thing I am generally loving about this thread is the substantial amount of nonpartisan agreement. Almost everybody, left and right, agrees that transwomen are not biologically female. And almost everybody, left and right, agrees that there is no anti-trans conspiracy to promote trans interests in public policy.
Yep! Liberals and conservatives, united against us!

It just warms my heart.
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Old 15th February 2021, 11:48 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think I get it now:

"I lost to a cisman because he was male" = totally reasonable

"I lost to a transwoman because she was male" = transphobia
I think awareness of the fact that the issue in these disputes is being male rather than being trans manages at some level to penetrate the most robust psychological defences, along with realisation that this undermines the ability to use accusations of transphobia to silence dissent. This prompts the need to assert that transwomen are also really female and/or biological sex is unimportant, a spectrum or whatever.
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Old 15th February 2021, 11:50 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay. Let's try a different approach here. Let's take the language off the table as much as possible and still be talking.

100 people consisting of people with both penises and vaginas (that's various people who have either a penis or vagina not people with both oh you know what I mean...) all enter an athletic competition. At the end of the competition the top 10% of people all have a penis. The people with vaginas feel they are not being represented in the sport and start a seperate league where they have a chance of being in the top 10%.

Without using the words man, woman, male, female, trans(X), or any other oblique referencing to the labeling of the sexes and genders answer the following the question.

Is the complaint and actions of the vagina havers valid? Why or why not?
There's another word that I would like to avoid. That's "fair". I won't use it as I provide my answer.

For simplicity, I will address only sports as spectator driven events, but nearly idenitcal arguments apply in educational settings, and to a lesser extent, recreational leagues.

People watch sporting competitions because, for whatever reason, we love to watch displays of athletic ability. We want to see a combination of skill that has been developed practice, natural talent, and physical fitness that comes through training. Specifically with respect to that last element, we want to see athletes that have done everything in their power to maximize their bodies' potential to perform.

Having a vagina is correlated with other physiological, including hormonal, characteristics that limit performance. We want to see people who have developed their bodies to peak athleticism, but a vagina-possessor who has developed their body to peak performance levels will not be able to perform to the same level as a penis-possessor at the equivalent level of training. Indeed, a penis-possessor of mediocre ability can frequently outperform a world class vagina possessor.

In order to showcase the very best, most athletic, performers, there has to be separate leagues for people with penises, and people with vaginas.

If it can be arranged, the same can also be said for physical stature and other characteristics of athletes. For example, in sports where height is an advantage, leagues for short people may be appropriate. However, there often is not enough spectator or athlete interest in, for example, a short person's basketball league, in order to sustain the activity, so having a league specifically for other disadvantage categories (height, weight, age) may not be practical. However, there is almost always support of a league for vagina possessorts, so it is a good idea.

In summary, what people want in spectator sports is an opportunity to see great displays from the very best athletes. The very best athletes with vaginas are likely to underperform lots of the best athletes with penises. Separate leagues should exist wherever possible to showcase these great athletes that are born with physiological conditions that limit their absolute level of performance.

ETA: To answer in the words of the original question, the actions of the vagina havers is valid, i.e. it serves a good purpose, and is the best way to serve that purpose. I don't know if there is a "complaint" as such. They just observe that the best vagina possessors almost always lose to not just the best penis-possessors, but most of the penis possessors.
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Old 15th February 2021, 12:00 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
I think awareness of the fact that the issue in these disputes is being male rather than being trans manages at some level to penetrate the most robust psychological defences, along with realisation that this undermines the ability to use accusations of transphobia to silence dissent. This prompts the need to assert that transwomen are also really female and/or biological sex is unimportant, a spectrum or whatever.
I've been saying pretty much the same thing off and on ever since Boudicca introduced the premise.
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Old 15th February 2021, 12:00 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
IGLYO and the other liberal/leftist organizations you have deemed as anti-trans rights are fully supportive of us and our goals.
Oh? Campaigning "under the radar" like comic-book Russian spies? Advocating surgery on little kids like a Hollywood horror-movie mad scientist?

I've got their theatrics sussed, and I suspect you do too.
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Old 15th February 2021, 12:01 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
There's another word that I would like to avoid. That's "fair". I won't use it as I provide my answer.

For simplicity, I will address only sports as spectator driven events, but nearly idenitcal arguments apply in educational settings, and to a lesser extent, recreational leagues.

People watch sporting competitions because, for whatever reason, we love to watch displays of athletic ability. We want to see a combination of skill that has been developed practice, natural talent, and physical fitness that comes through training. Specifically with respect to that last element, we want to see athletes that have done everything in their power to maximize their bodies' potential to perform.

Having a vagina is correlated with other physiological, including hormonal, characteristics that limit performance. We want to see people who have developed their bodies to peak athleticism, but a vagina-possessor who has developed their body to peak performance levels will not be able to perform to the same level as a penis-possessor at the equivalent level of training. Indeed, a penis-possessor of mediocre ability can frequently outperform a world class vagina possessor.

In order to showcase the very best, most athletic, performers, there has to be separate leagues for people with penises, and people with vaginas.

If it can be arranged, the same can also be said for physical stature and other characteristics of athletes. For example, in sports where height is an advantage, leagues for short people may be appropriate. However, there often is not enough spectator or athlete interest in, for example, a short person's basketball league, in order to sustain the activity, so having a league specifically for other disadvantage categories (height, weight, age) may not be practical. However, there is almost always support of a league for vagina possessorts, so it is a good idea.

In summary, what people want in spectator sports is an opportunity to see great displays from the very best athletes. The very best athletes with vaginas are likely to underperform lots of the best athletes with penises. Separate leagues should exist wherever possible to showcase these great athletes that are born with physiological conditions that limit their absolute level of performance.

ETA: To answer in the words of the original question, the actions of the vagina havers is valid, i.e. it serves a good purpose, and is the best way to serve that purpose. I don't know if there is a "complaint" as such. They just observe that the best vagina possessors almost always lose to not just the best penis-possessors, but most of the penis possessors.
It may not be as simple to segregate by genitals as you think, since plenty of trans women have vaginas. And having a penis says nothing about hormone levels since my estradiol and testosterone levels have been within a normal female range for years now.

Physically I have no advantage over a cisgender woman due to the changes I've undergone.
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Old 15th February 2021, 12:03 PM   #299
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Grip strength remains at around 95% in transwomen despite a year of hormone treatment but apparently that's not an advantage

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...trans%20people).

I'd love to see what the difference in strength is from a single morning of self IDing as female

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Old 15th February 2021, 12:04 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Yep! Liberals and conservatives, united against us!

It just warms my heart. : rolleyes :
Not all liberals. Just a tiny handful from a small subculture on a backwater discussion board.

And I don't think any of us wield any significant influence in the larger society. Except maybe Rolfe. But even in Rolfe's case, you'd probably get more value for time spent by engaging the SNP directly, rather than trying to reason with or against Rolfe here.

Seriously, how did you even find this thread? It's not like you came here for the abstruse skeptical wrangling, or the usual political slapfights, and discovered this particular conversation as a bonus. What is it about this thread, on this forum, that made you say to yourself, "self, these are the people I need to reach, these are the minds I need to change"?
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Old 15th February 2021, 12:06 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
Oh? Campaigning "under the radar" like comic-book Russian spies? Advocating surgery on little kids like a Hollywood horror-movie mad scientist?

I've got their theatrics sussed, and I suspect you do too.
Lmao, what? Their aims and tactics are not unusual, since other progressive groups use similar ones, including ones I'm a part of.

And your distortion of their views is what is really comical, they merely want transgender kids to receive the treatment they need to survive.
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Old 15th February 2021, 12:10 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
It may not be as simple to segregate by genitals as you think, since plenty of trans women have vaginas. And having a penis says nothing about hormone levels since my estradiol and testosterone levels have been within a normal female range for years now.

Physically I have no advantage over a cisgender woman due to the changes I've undergone.
Say what?

Do you mean an artificially constructed cosmetically similar body alteration that has the appearance and characteristics of a vagina, or have I misunderstood some terms? i.e. a male-sex person can undergo surgery to be altered to have the appearance of a vagina and other female sex organs. I understand that, as, I'm sure, everyone else does. However, if they have a real, actual, vagina, they aren't transwomen, or am I behind on my language again?

As for hormone levels, my post didn't go into as much detail as it possibly could have, but some sporting federations do indeed allow people to compete based on harmone levels rather than "equipment", and that's fine. I know there's a lot of controversy on that subject. Exactly how to do that the best way is an open subject that has no obvious answer. If a penis possessor takes steps to deliberately handicap themselves to have performance characteristics similar to a vagina possessor, I have no problem if the sports federation running things decides that the penis possessor may, in that case, compete against the vagina possessors.

Simply put, is it still a good competition for spectators and/or athletes? If so, then no harm done.
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Old 15th February 2021, 12:10 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Physically I have no advantage over a cisgender woman due to the changes I've undergone.
Is that something your physician told you, or is that something you made up for rhetorical advantage?

Your muscle mass and bone structure were developed at male testosterone levels. The body your biology built for you, the body you inhabit today, was built as a male body. That doesn't change just because you're changing your current hormone mix. I'm sure you've lost a lot of your advantage relative to other males who haven't undergone your changes, but you're still at an advantage relative to females. A female who invested the same amount of effort in athletic conditioning as you have would likely be weaker and slower than you in any fair contest. A female who wanted to consistently beat you at such contests would have to put in an amount of effort that you could safely do without.
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Old 15th February 2021, 12:10 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not all liberals. Just a tiny handful from a small subculture on a backwater discussion board.

And I don't think any of us wield any significant influence in the larger society. Except maybe Rolfe. But even in Rolfe's case, you'd probably get more value for time spent by engaging the SNP directly, rather than trying to reason with or against Rolfe here.

Seriously, how did you even find this thread? It's not like you came here for the abstruse skeptical wrangling, or the usual political slapfights, and discovered this particular conversation as a bonus. What is it about this thread, on this forum, that made you say to yourself, "self, these are the people I need to reach, these are the minds I need to change"?
I've been lurking here ever since this was the JREF forum, and when I saw a bigoted thread like this on a board I (used to) think highly of, I felt I had to speak out.
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Old 15th February 2021, 12:15 PM   #305
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Would a race car analogy help?

Put a Formula 2 driver behind the wheel of a Formula 1 car, and you've still got a Formula 1 car with a 1,000 HP, 18,000 RPM engine. You don't get to enter that car in F2 races, against F2 cars with 500 HP, 10,000 RPM engines, just because the driver is an F2 driver.

Nor do you get to enter an F1 car and an F1 driver in F2 races, just because the F1 driver decides they'd rather race F2.
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Old 15th February 2021, 12:35 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
They didn't lose to men, they lost to women. Stop trying to muddy the conversation.
Did they lose to individuals who went through male puberty at some point?
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Old 15th February 2021, 12:45 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Segregating by genitalia tells transwomen that their feelings and needs aren't valid unless they've actually gone under the knife. That doesn't seem fair.
It isn't possible to be fair in terms of validating people's feelings. That's a garbage metric. And "needs" haven't been established in this regard. There's a benefit to having people's feelings considered, but transwomen aren't the only people whose feelings matter in that regard.

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Remember, the solution can't just be the easiest solution for the curmudgeons and the unreconstructed reactionary conservatives. It also has to honor the premise, needs, and feelings of transsexuals.
Needs to?

No, it doesn't need to. Such a solution is unlikely given the current balance of power, but that's a practical consideration, not a principled one. A principled consideration may hold such a solution to be sub-optimal, but any solution is always going to be suboptimal from somebody's perspective.
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Old 15th February 2021, 12:49 PM   #308
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Seems like a good time to point out that the outcome of a middle school baseball game is not actually that important and it's much more about teaching the kids both athletic and general social skills than it is about competition for competition's sake.

We aren't talking the Olympics here. Including trans students in school sports is an important consideration. Excluding trans kids from school sports because of "fairness" concerns seems to be missing the point entirely of school sports.
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Old 15th February 2021, 12:52 PM   #309
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
They didn't lose to men, they lost to women. Stop trying to muddy the conversation.
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Did they lose to individuals who went through male puberty at some point?
Everyone else: We need to have some clear terms to distinguish the different kinds of things we're talking about here.

TRAs: Stop trying to muddy the conversation!
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Old 15th February 2021, 12:55 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seems like a good time to point out that the outcome of a middle school baseball game is not actually that important and it's much more about teaching the kids both athletic and general social skills than it is about competition for competition's sake.

We aren't talking the Olympics here. Including trans students in school sports is an important consideration. Excluding trans kids from school sports because of "fairness" concerns seems to be missing the point entirely of school sports.
What do you think losing at every sporting competition at school will teach these girls? What will it do to their self esteem?
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Old 15th February 2021, 12:57 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Lmao, what? Their aims and tactics are not unusual, since other progressive groups use similar ones, including ones I'm a part of.

And your distortion of their views is what is really comical, they merely want transgender kids to receive the treatment they need to survive.
The medical "industrial complex" already provides such treatment.
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Old 15th February 2021, 12:58 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seems like a good time to point out that the outcome of a middle school baseball game is not actually that important and it's much more about teaching the kids both athletic and general social skills than it is about competition for competition's sake.

We aren't talking the Olympics here. Including trans students in school sports is an important consideration. Excluding trans kids from school sports because of "fairness" concerns seems to be missing the point entirely of school sports.

Let us know when you make some headway toward getting middle school students, their parents, and school staff not to celebrate or otherwise emphasize outcomes in their school sports.
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Old 15th February 2021, 12:59 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seems like a good time to point out that the outcome of a middle school baseball game is not actually that important and it's much more about teaching the kids both athletic and general social skills than it is about competition for competition's sake.

We aren't talking the Olympics here. Including trans students in school sports is an important consideration. Excluding trans kids from school sports because of "fairness" concerns seems to be missing the point entirely of school sports.
Where do female Olympic athletes get their start? This is the point you and others seem to be missing.
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Old 15th February 2021, 01:08 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Hmm, you are right that many transphobes like you may not really be feminists. But you certainly like to use feminist language and justifications a lot, in your case you use them to back up your "Won't somebody think of the children?!" arguments.

That's why I am coming around to the fact that TERF may not be as accurate as the alternative suggested acronym of FART - Feminism-Appropriating Reactionary Transphobe.
There is nothing 'transphobic' about being concerned when women's rights are being opened up to the entire category of males. That some of those males are now genuinely living as women is irrelevant. No one has yet told me how to tell the difference.

Yes, I do think of the children. I am a mother. And that is why I need to educate my female daughter. You said you thought you'd likely be sexually assaulted by a man yourself. How do you plan to protect from that?
And what should I tell my own kid about protecting herself from the same thing?

The main advice is not to let yourself get into a vulnerable situation with a man you do not know, and to get out of any such situation quickly if your instincts tell you something isn't right.

That is not transphobic. You are doing the same thing.
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Old 15th February 2021, 01:08 PM   #315
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I can't wait for the first heavyweight boxer to identify as a flyweight and demand to compete against the other flyweights. When he cleans up, we can just tell those who lost by knockout against him that they should have just trained harder and we have no sympathy for them.

Never mind; I know how useless argument by analogy is. For all I know, it's even been made already in this thread, but I've not been able to keep up.

ETA: And no, this is not an argument to say that weight classes solve the issue of having people of opposite sex compete against each other. Women fighting men are at risk of being seriously hurt even if they weigh the same.
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Old 15th February 2021, 01:21 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seems like a good time to point out that the outcome of a middle school baseball game is not actually that important and it's much more about teaching the kids both athletic and general social skills than it is about competition for competition's sake.

We aren't talking the Olympics here. Including trans students in school sports is an important consideration. Excluding trans kids from school sports because of "fairness" concerns seems to be missing the point entirely of school sports.
It's rather disingenuous to just talk about middle school. The outcomes of high school games can be very important to the students involved, since they can impact scholarship chances. It's also at the high school level that biological differences become more pronounced, and transgender people are more likely to have come out by that age. And I don't think anyone wants to exclude trans kids from school sports. But trans girls don't have to be included with the other girls in order to be included. They can compete with the boys, since biologically that's what they are. Why is that not acceptable?
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Old 15th February 2021, 01:33 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's rather disingenuous to just talk about middle school. The outcomes of high school games can be very important to the students involved, since they can impact scholarship chances. It's also at the high school level that biological differences become more pronounced, and transgender people are more likely to have come out by that age. And I don't think anyone wants to exclude trans kids from school sports. But trans girls don't have to be included with the other girls in order to be included. They can compete with the boys, since biologically that's what they are. Why is that not acceptable?
Yes, seriously, what are the TRAs afraid will happen? That the boys will make fun of her for moving like a girl? I got that a lot too, because of my autism. Students need to learn to treat exceptional people with respect.
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Old 15th February 2021, 01:47 PM   #318
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When I was in high school, there were a couple girls in the district league, who had successfully petitioned to compete on the (boy's) wrestling team. I don't recall any controversy or fuss. They would just show up at meets and tournaments and compete in their matches.

Being an awkward male at the time myself, I always felt bad for the boys who had to wrestle them. Just seemed like it would be awkward, and like certain basic moves would be off the table out of respect for boobs and buttocks.

Nowadays I'm thinking, if girls manifestly can compete on the boy's team, why is it so important that transgirls not?

Leaving aside the obnoxious debate about the definition of "woman": Why is it medically necessary for transwomen to compete on the women's team, instead of the men's team?
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Old 15th February 2021, 01:53 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
What do you think losing at every sporting competition at school will teach these girls? What will it do to their self esteem?
The majority of these trans kids desist later on. Up to 10 or 11 yrs it's not a big deal- see my own kid as an example. After that, the differences start becoming much more meaningful for healthy competition.

Co-ed water polo became ridiculously imbalanced once some of the boys on the teams 'sprouted'. The whole idea that competition can still be remotely fair as kids enter their teens is delusional. It is straight-up biological advantage denialism. I have to think these people have zero experience in kids sports.

And no one ever talks about the girl who is NOT on the team because her spot went to a biological male. What about her right to play? She has basically been replaced by someone with the ability to naturally dope themselves.
Not that kids fault, but none of the females have access to those 'enhancing' drugs or the other structural benefits.

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Old 15th February 2021, 02:09 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seems like a good time to point out that the outcome of a middle school baseball game is not actually that important and it's much more about teaching the kids both athletic and general social skills than it is about competition for competition's sake.

We aren't talking the Olympics here. Including trans students in school sports is an important consideration. Excluding trans kids from school sports because of "fairness" concerns seems to be missing the point entirely of school sports.
I can't recall. Were you one of the people who chimed into the "sports aren't important anyway" discussion?

The outcome is pretty important to the participants, and not just, or not even mostly, Ziggurat's scholarship comments.

People who don't like sports have been trying to convince people, especially kids, to not keep score for a few decades now. All it has gotten us is a childhood obesity epidemic.
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