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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 15th February 2021, 02:28 PM   #321
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I can't recall. Were you one of the people who chimed into the "sports aren't important anyway" discussion?

The outcome is pretty important to the participants, and not just, or not even mostly, Ziggurat's scholarship comments.

People who don't like sports have been trying to convince people, especially kids, to not keep score for a few decades now. All it has gotten us is a childhood obesity epidemic.
Sure, but outcome isn't the only concern. There are all kinds of rules for school sports, especially at younger ages, to be inclusive even when doing so is detrimental to their chances of success. Many leagues mandate minimum playing time for each player.
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Old 15th February 2021, 02:30 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Let us know when you make some headway toward getting middle school students, their parents, and school staff not to celebrate or otherwise emphasize outcomes in their school sports.

Do we have enough time for that?
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Old 15th February 2021, 02:32 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I can't recall. Were you one of the people who chimed into the "sports aren't important anyway" discussion?

The outcome is pretty important to the participants, and not just, or not even mostly, Ziggurat's scholarship comments.

People who don't like sports have been trying to convince people, especially kids, to not keep score for a few decades now. All it has gotten us is a childhood obesity epidemic.
...and widespread mediocrity
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Old 15th February 2021, 02:34 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Sure, but outcome isn't the only concern. There are all kinds of rules for school sports, especially at younger ages, to be inclusive even when doing so is detrimental to their chances of success. Many leagues mandate minimum playing time for each player.
Little kids sure. Learning the game and sportsmanship is nice.

Otherwise, this is just bad sports communism, ignoring all we know about incentives in human nature to achieve and strive for goals.
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Old 15th February 2021, 02:37 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Little kids sure. Learning the game and sportsmanship is nice.

Otherwise, this is just bad sports communism, ignoring all we know about incentives in human nature to achieve and strive for goals.
One such element of "sports communism" is Title IX. Without this egalitarian stance being ridiculed here, women's sports in public schools would almost certainly have their budgets decimated.
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Old 15th February 2021, 02:43 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
One such element of "sports communism" is Title IX. Without this egalitarian stance being ridiculed here, women's sports in public schools would almost certainly have their budgets decimated.
Ironically, Title IX has led to some small schools having to decimate their budget for men's sports, simply because there wasn't enough demand from their women students to establish parity between men's and women's sports programs. If you have a men's track team, you gotta have a women's track team. But there's not enough women who want to be on a track team. Solution: get rid of the men's track team too. As usual, communism results in everyone being poor together.
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Old 15th February 2021, 02:44 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Ironically, Title IX has led to some small schools having to decimate their budget for men's sports, simply because there wasn't enough demand from their women students to establish parity between men's and women's sports programs. If you have a men's track team, you gotta have a women's track team. But there's not enough women who want to be on a track team. Solution: get rid of the men's track team too. As usual, communism results in everyone being poor together.
Hell yeah, bring on the borscht comrade.
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Old 15th February 2021, 02:46 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's rather disingenuous to just talk about middle school. The outcomes of high school games can be very important to the students involved, since they can impact scholarship chances. It's also at the high school level that biological differences become more pronounced, and transgender people are more likely to have come out by that age. And I don't think anyone wants to exclude trans kids from school sports. But trans girls don't have to be included with the other girls in order to be included. They can compete with the boys, since biologically that's what they are. Why is that not acceptable?
Because they ARE NOT boys! And placing them in the same category as actual boys only serves to delegitimize them as girls and say that their identity isn't valid.

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Old 15th February 2021, 02:56 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
One such element of "sports communism" is Title IX. Without this egalitarian stance being ridiculed here, women's sports in public schools would almost certainly have their budgets decimated.
Wha???
Title IX should simply offer opportunity for a program, not equal outcome or fair playing time within female sports. It's just money for space, equipment and coaches.


Out this way, HS football is the big money maker. ymmv.
Myself, I never went to a public school so never benefited from public funding there-- and we managed with high performing girls teams (at an all-girl school there was nothing else!) but not all schools can do it.
Our 'brother' school paid for many of their boys programs with their football money. Works similar to title IX, just small and private, oh, and for boys- and some pro baseball players came out of that.

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Old 15th February 2021, 02:57 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Hell yeah, bring on the borscht comrade.
You seem perversely pleased with this negative outcome.
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Old 15th February 2021, 02:59 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Because they ARE NOT boys! And placing them in the same category as actual boys only serves to delegitimize them as girls and say that their identity isn't valid.
Seems like, given the choice of validating an identity or validating a biology, validating the biology would be the healthier choice every time.

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Admit it: This was sent from an iPhone 10 that identifies as a moto g(7).
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Old 15th February 2021, 03:03 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Sure, but outcome isn't the only concern. There are all kinds of rules for school sports, especially at younger ages, to be inclusive even when doing so is detrimental to their chances of success. Many leagues mandate minimum playing time for each player.
Anyone who doesn't see the obvious flaw in this comparison is not trying very hard.

ETA: Flaws
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Old 15th February 2021, 03:04 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Because they ARE NOT boys! And placing them in the same category as actual boys only serves to delegitimize them as girls and say that their identity isn't valid.
You say that as if kids experimenting with gender expression, however valid and sincere, is a permanent condition. Most of the time it isn't.
Many will be just fine being boys again.
You didn't, but that is you, and not everyone.
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Old 15th February 2021, 03:17 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
You say that as if kids experimenting with gender expression, however valid and sincere, is a permanent condition. Most of the time it isn't.

Many will be just fine being boys again.

You didn't, but that is you, and not everyone.
Most of the time it is, despite your propaganda about desisters.

https://medium.com/@zinniajones/when...a-90a0857f2472

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Old 15th February 2021, 03:36 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Because they ARE NOT boys!
But they are males, with male biology. And the entire justification for sports segregation is biology, NOT gender identification.

Quote:
And placing them in the same category as actual boys only serves to delegitimize them as girls and say that their identity isn't valid.
Words like this don't really mean anything. It's all just subjective interpretation, and to the extent that the concept matters at all, it's a double-edged sword. You are delegitimizing biological girls when you let males compete against them.

Objectively, they have male physiology. I know you have claimed otherwise, but that is simply wrong. Objectively, they have significant advantages in athletic competition against females. Objectively, females stand little chance competing against them.
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Old 15th February 2021, 03:38 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
You say that as if kids experimenting with gender expression, however valid and sincere, is a permanent condition.
In this case, though, it doesn't matter. Even if every single one of them was 100% guaranteed to persist, it wouldn't make letting them compete against girls fair.
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Old 15th February 2021, 04:07 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post


Admit it: This was sent from an iPhone 10 that identifies as a moto g(7).
Lol
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Old 15th February 2021, 04:22 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Admit it: This was sent from an iPhone 10 that identifies as a moto g(7).
Yes, it's so ******* funny to make fun of us.

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Old 15th February 2021, 04:26 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Yes, it's so ******* funny to make fun of us.

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk
Honestly I don't care if your phone identifies as three dogs in a trench coat. But why leave the silly Tapatalk pseudosig turned on?
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Old 15th February 2021, 04:27 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Yes, it's so ******* funny to make fun of us.

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk
No one is making fun of you. Some find the spin on the claim you are making to be preposterous, and are riffing on that.
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Old 15th February 2021, 04:40 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
In this case, though, it doesn't matter. Even if every single one of them was 100% guaranteed to persist, it wouldn't make letting them compete against girls fair.
Yeah. Absolutely true for the older kids. I was thinking more of younger children- pre puberty, needing to be affirmed as girls.

My kid wasn't on team that was single sex until nearly 12 when she started volleyball...and then Covid shut all of it down. Before that, there could be any type of boy/girl mix within an age range. Sometimes there was one boy in her gymnastic class, and sometimes she was the only girl on the bball team. But all were allowed to participate. There are a lot of options for young kids of any gender or sex to get into sports that are gender neutral.

After 12yrs, you find less co-ed teams because the physical differences are getting larger. By 13 or 14, the boys (males) will handily trounce the girls (females), all else being equal.

It is such an obvious, factual, observable thing that I feel like if I say the ocean is wet, someone might counter with some odd notion of high salinity making that not always true in some weird situation of air pressure, on mars. or something.

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Old 15th February 2021, 04:46 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
You say that as if kids experimenting with gender expression, however valid and sincere, is a permanent condition. Most of the time it isn't.
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Most of the time it is, despite your propaganda about desisters.
The article you linked from Zinnia Jones links to an article which says "Across all studies, the persistence rate of GD has been approximately 16%" and goes on to say that "Studies encompassing much longer follow-up periods might show a prevalence higher than 16% if individuals with persistence-after-interruption are included." That said, even if 16% doubled to 32%, Sherkeu would still be correct here. What (if anything) have you read which made you believe 16% will come to exceed 50%?
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Old 15th February 2021, 04:53 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No one is making fun of you. Some find the spin on the claim you are making to be preposterous, and are riffing on that.
Reminds me of the old joke:

Q. How many third-wave feminists does it take to change a light bulb?

A. THAT'S NOT FUNNY!
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Old 15th February 2021, 05:47 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The article you linked from Zinnia Jones links to an article which says "Across all studies, the persistence rate of GD has been approximately 16%" and goes on to say that "Studies encompassing much longer follow-up periods might show a prevalence higher than 16% if individuals with persistence-after-interruption are included." That said, even if 16% doubled to 32%, Sherkeu would still be correct here. What (if anything) have you read which made you believe 16% will come to exceed 50%?
Fair enough, I was wrong to say most.

But the point of the article stands that the current studies (and therefore the 16% figure) are flawed due to relying on outdated standards.

More accurately, none of us knows the true figure, but I see it as irrelevant since anyone who experiences incongruence with their assigned gender should have the option of treatment.

(And I think I turned off the sig. I didn't know it was an option)
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Old 15th February 2021, 05:49 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Reminds me of the old joke:



Q. How many third-wave feminists does it take to change a light bulb?



A. THAT'S NOT FUNNY!
I just don't find any of those "I identify as a..." jokes to be funny. They just serve to demean trans people.
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Old 15th February 2021, 05:52 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Yeah. Absolutely true for the older kids. I was thinking more of younger children- pre puberty, needing to be affirmed as girls.

My kid wasn't on team that was single sex until nearly 12 when she started volleyball...and then Covid shut all of it down. Before that, there could be any type of boy/girl mix within an age range. Sometimes there was one boy in her gymnastic class, and sometimes she was the only girl on the bball team. But all were allowed to participate. There are a lot of options for young kids of any gender or sex to get into sports that are gender neutral.

After 12yrs, you find less co-ed teams because the physical differences are getting larger. By 13 or 14, the boys (males) will handily trounce the girls (females), all else being equal.

It is such an obvious, factual, observable thing that I feel like if I say the ocean is wet, someone might counter with some odd notion of high salinity making that not always true in some weird situation of air pressure, on mars. or something.
It is probably a rugby world rule, but here there can be mixed teams till they turn 12.

Mind you there is no tackling till the Under 8s and it can also be divided by weight when that kicks in.

Like if a kid is 10 or whatever and weighs about twice as much as everyone else, they have to play in a older age group.

Mind you I think they can sometimes give compensation to the odd girl to play a couple of grades higher for a season or two in small towns if there aren't enough girls to make a team etc.

But even then the girl needs to have medical proof she is structurely safe enough to not get broken.
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Old 15th February 2021, 05:58 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Fair enough, I was wrong to say most.

But the point of the article stands that the current studies (and therefore the 16% figure) are flawed due to relying on outdated standards.
The figures aren't actually relevant to what we were just discussing. A transgirl with no medical intervention who is 100% not going to detransition should still not be competing against biological girls in sports post-puberty. The physical discrepancy is just too large.
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Old 15th February 2021, 06:21 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The figures aren't actually relevant to what we were just discussing. A transgirl with no medical intervention who is 100% not going to detransition should still not be competing against biological girls in sports post-puberty. The physical discrepancy is just too large.
I think it came up because Boudicca was emphasizing how important it was to affirm the identity of the transpeople. One of the counterarguments was that maybe it wasn't all that important to affirm their identity when an awful lot of them, 5 out of 6 if you believe d4m1on's reference, are going to go back to their birth gender anyway. The other counterargument is the much more common observation that the one with the penis is going to have a gigantic advantage if competing against the girls

Serious question, Boudicca. If a 16 year old identified as a transboy, i.e. using boys' bathrooms and such while at school, and he wanted to play sports, would you force him to play in the boys' division, or would you allow him to choose between the two leagues?


(For me, I would allow the choice in most cases. In fact, I can't think of any situation where I wouldn't allow it, but someone might be able to come up with one.)
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Old 15th February 2021, 07:02 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
I just don't find any of those "I identify as a..." jokes to be funny. They just serve to demean trans people.
It's unfortunate that you feel that way. I will try to take your feelings into account. However, my sense of humor is what it is. I won't suppress it or deny it just because it makes other people uncomfortable.
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Old 15th February 2021, 07:08 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
I just don't find any of those "I identify as a..." jokes to be funny. They just serve to demean trans people.
For a person who continually tells biological women to suck it up if they don't like it, you seem remarkably thin-skinned.
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Old 15th February 2021, 07:32 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Yep! Liberals and conservatives, united against us!

It just warms my heart. : rolleyes :
Hey, at least you agree with the rest of us about Collin's conspiracy theories.
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Old 15th February 2021, 07:35 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Ron Obvious View Post
For a person who continually tells biological women to suck it up if they don't like it, you seem remarkably thin-skinned.
Check your privilege. Us rich old white hetero cismales are playing life on easy mode. We can afford to shrug off all the slings and arrows of outrageous activism. To us much of life is a joke, or a game. To others, it's deadly serious. It must be emotionally draining to have everything and everyone in life working against you all the time, and making fun of your situation like it ain't no thing. Even a main battle tank will suffer a hull breach if you hit the front armor enough times.
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Old 15th February 2021, 08:17 PM   #353
Boudicca90
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Serious question, Boudicca. If a 16 year old identified as a transboy, i.e. using boys' bathrooms and such while at school, and he wanted to play sports, would you force him to play in the boys' division, or would you allow him to choose between the two leagues?


(For me, I would allow the choice in most cases. In fact, I can't think of any situation where I wouldn't allow it, but someone might be able to come up with one.)
Hmm, I actually didn't consider the situation of what if someone did want to play in the division/league of their original gender/sex.

I suppose I would be okay with it assuming it was of their own free will. So yeah, for both trans boys and girls if they are fine with it, I am.
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Old 15th February 2021, 08:21 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Check your privilege. Us rich old white hetero cismales are playing life on easy mode. We can afford to shrug off all the slings and arrows of outrageous activism. To us much of life is a joke, or a game. To others, it's deadly serious. It must be emotionally draining to have everything and everyone in life working against you all the time, and making fun of your situation like it ain't no thing. Even a main battle tank will suffer a hull breach if you hit the front armor enough times.
Thank you, I know I can take things a little too personally sometimes.

It's just like you said, and it's hard for me to be objective and impartial when it comes to issues that do affect me and my friends so much. And with this current legal backlash against our rights all across the country, it's been frustrating.
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Old 15th February 2021, 08:27 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Hmm, I actually didn't consider the situation of what if someone did want to play in the division/league of their original gender/sex.

I suppose I would be okay with it assuming it was of their own free will. So yeah, for both trans boys and girls if they are fine with it, I am.
Kind of sounds like what you actually are or identifies as doesn't matter, and you just pick based on other criteria?
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Old 15th February 2021, 08:33 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Hmm, I actually didn't consider the situation of what if someone did want to play in the division/league of their original gender/sex.

I suppose I would be okay with it assuming it was of their own free will. So yeah, for both trans boys and girls if they are fine with it, I am.
Ok. Cis-people have to play in the division corresponding to their sex, trans people have a choice.

I thought of one situation where I would certainly not allow the transboy a choice. If on a male hormone regimen, I would say they have to play in the boys' if they play at all.


Most of us will remember this incident, but some people might not, so I'll bring up a fairly famous case of this. In Texas they passed some kind of old-fashioned rules. Everyone has to stay in their sex' division, regardless of current gender identification. Also, no cross-sex wrestling. i.e. a girl can't wrestle against a boy.

And of course, no performance enhancing drugs. However, if they were prescribed by a doctor for a valid medical condition, that rule was waived, so one year a transboy who was pretty bulked up from male hormones won the Texas state girls' wrestling championship.

Of course, my question, and answer, only applied to transboys.
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Old 15th February 2021, 10:29 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Hmm, I actually didn't consider the situation of what if someone did want to play in the division/league of their original gender/sex.

I suppose I would be okay with it assuming it was of their own free will. So yeah, for both trans boys and girls if they are fine with it, I am.
So you are asking for trans people to have more rights and privileges than biological females and males, rather than equal rights?
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Old 15th February 2021, 10:43 PM   #358
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Good to see some are concentrating on the important trans issues.

https://www.wavy.com/news/health/som...ore-inclusive/

Quote:
Some move to change ‘breast’ milk to ‘chest’ or ‘human’ milk in effort to be more inclusive

There is a new push by some health care professionals to change the term “breast milk” to “chest milk.”

In the United Kingdom, one hospital made international headlines for changing the term “breast milk” to “human milk.” It’s an effort to be more inclusive to transgender and non-binary parents.

Illinois mother Jill Aspinwall says she wanted to provide the best nutrients possible for her three children, but admits she struggled to breastfeed and was often shamed for doing so.

“I’ve had dirty looks. I’ve had comments and I’m just letting it go,” said Aspinwall. “I am feeding my baby and providing the best nutrition possible. Some people were intolerant to breastfeeding in public — especially not covering up. But once a baby is a few months old they bat off that blanket and they want to see what’s going on.”

After her first experience with nursing her daughter, she decided to help others. So she became an internationally board-certified lactation consultant in 2015. Then she opened her own lactation service, “After Hours Breastfeeding Support.”

Now she teaches parents how to naturally feed their child. Recently, Aspinwall implemented terminology changes at her practice.

“I think that we can speak to people in general terms until we get to know that client individually and then when we know what pronouns they would like to use and to be addressed as then we can address them as such,” said Aspinwall.

She says she started to use the terms chest milk or human milk, instead of the traditional term. She says it’s a way to create a more comfortable atmosphere for transgender parents as well as non-binary parents — who do not identify with any gender...……..
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"I mean, you've got the first sort of mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a story-book, man," Biden said.

2007 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna16911044
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Old 15th February 2021, 10:50 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But they are males, with male biology. And the entire justification for sports segregation is biology, NOT gender identification.
THIS

(Holy Crap Zig... something we agree on!!)

The whole reason for segregating male sport from female sport is because not doing so creates lop-sided, unfair contests and in the case of some sports, creates actual physical danger for the female participants, for example, I shudder to think what would happen to Black Ferns fullback Selica Winiata (5ft 1in, 127lb) if she was crash-tackled by All Black winger Jordie Barrett (6ft 5in, 209 lb).
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Old 15th February 2021, 11:05 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Good to see some are concentrating on the important trans issues.

https://www.wavy.com/news/health/som...ore-inclusive/
I've always thought "human milk" is the sensible term. Every female mammal has a body section that could be called a breast -- except, ironically, a cow!
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