IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Derek Chauvin , George Floyd , murder cases , police incidents , police issues , police misconduct charges

Reply
Old 31st March 2021, 01:24 PM   #361
Ernie M
Muse
 
Ernie M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 876
ON BEING A BYSTANDER: Helpless to stop a police killing

Helpless

Bystanders witnessed George Floyd slowly die because they were helpless to stop then-Minneapolis police from using excessive force. The police–authority figures–controlled what happened and what didn't–by the assumed power of who they were, and the 'mace,' handcuffs, and guns, they carried.

Bystanders spoke out against Floyd's mistreatment, but their pleadings went unheeded. If they physically intervened, they could face arrest, injury, death, and/or criminal charges. Someone trying to help ensure George Floyd's rights, could be harmed.

Former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin pressed a knee to George Floyd's neck for an excessively long time, and three other (former) Minneapolis police officers on the scene, Tou Thao, Thomas Lane, and J. Alexander Kueng, failed their duty to intervene.

Bystanders got the sense that the police were killing George Floyd, but because the police controlled the situation, the bystanders were helpless to stop the abuse.

Bystanders included:

Note: Jena Scurry wasn't a bystander on scene, but was 911 Dispatcher.
Minneapolis 911 Dispatcher, the woman who dispatched police to Cup Foods after getting a call about a man with a counterfeit bill, Jena Scurry, called a supervisor and, from testimony during Prosecutor Jerry Blackwell's opening statement, "she did something that she had never done in her career: She called the police on the police."

Witness, Donald Wynn Williams II, a mixed martial arts fighter, called out Chauvin as using a "blood choke," on Floyd, applying pressure to the side of Floyd's neck which would cutoff blood flowing to Floyd's head. Williams stated Chauvin adjusted his position as to increase and maintain pressure on Floyd's neck.

Genevieve Hansen, a Minneapolis firefighter and trained EMT, told police to check George for a pulse. Hansen is a first responder and police didn't accept her professional help to check on Floyd.

Alisha Oyler, a Speedway station employee, recorded brief videos because police are "always messing with people ... and it's not right."

Witness Darnella Frazier, then 17 years-old high school student, recorded the long video. During the second day of the trial, Tuesday, March 30, 2021, (now) 18-year-old Darnella Frazier said, "When I look at George Floyd, I look at my dad. I look at my brothers. I look at my cousins, my uncles," "They are all black. I have a black father, I have a black brother, I have black friends." "I look at that and I look at how that could have been one of them.

"It has been nights I stayed up apologizing and apologizing to George Floyd for not doing more and not physically interacting and not saving his life."

Note this important distinction:

"Its not what I should have done, it’s what he should have done," Frazier concluded. "he" was likely what then-officer Chauvin should have done.

Trauma from being helpless

The bystanders and 911 Dispatcher were helpless to stop the power, the authority, the system, of the police, from killing George Floyd.

I wonder how being helpless affects the bystanders. Guilt and shame. They tried but couldn't save George Floyd. Bystanders likely experienced learned helplessness from that broken police system.

My thoughts and condolences to George Floyd's family, the helpless bystanders and 911 Dispatcher, and everyone affected by the circumstances surrounding George Floyd's unjust death.

Ernie Marsh
__________________
paranormalstateillustrated.com

Taking a close look at what you see and hear
on a "Real Life. Drama." TV series.

Last edited by Ernie M; 31st March 2021 at 01:34 PM. Reason: Corrected the date of Darnella Frazier's court testimony to the second day of Chauvin's trial.
Ernie M is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 01:27 PM   #362
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 8,788
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
At this point his legal costs are likely covered by the Union, and I don't know if he would be covered from personal costs from the victims family because of qualified immunity.
He wouldn't be covered via qualified immunity:

Quote:
In the United States, qualified immunity is a legal principle that grants government officials performing discretionary functions immunity from civil suits unless the plaintiff shows that the official violated "clearly established statutory or constitutional rights of which a reasonable person would have known".
If he's found guilty I'd say he probably broke a few constitutional rights.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 01:29 PM   #363
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 8,788
Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
*snipped for brevity*

Ernie Marsh
Good breakdown.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 01:31 PM   #364
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 31,491
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
He's authenticating the videos. He's explaining how the system works and why the jurors can be sure they weren't tampered with. It's just part of the process:
Is the authenticity of the video in question?

This sounds like procedure for procedure sake. Even legality is not served by questioning facts that are not in question just for the sake of it.
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 01:31 PM   #365
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 8,788
Bodycam footage shows Floyd immediately started crying, was scared and didn't want to get out of the car. Asked not to be shot but didn't appear combative. He was handcuffed immediately up getting out of the car. Less than 2 minutes into the interaction he had cuffs on.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 01:37 PM   #366
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 12,989
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Is the authenticity of the video in question?

This sounds like procedure for procedure sake. Even legality is not served by questioning facts that are not in question just for the sake of it.
It's part of the legal process. One reason for following the rules is to reduce grounds for appeal. You can't just say "Lookie here at these pictures." You have to say where they came from, who took them, etc. That's why the people who took the videos are testifying that they did take the videos and that they show what they are purported to show.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 01:40 PM   #367
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 8,788
It could be a way to get the body cams into evidence, or just simply replay the videos again showing Floyd's desperate pleas. This will definitely show the indifference and what the cops were talking about during the whole thing.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 01:42 PM   #368
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 31,491
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It's part of the legal process. One reason for following the rules is to reduce grounds for appeal. You can't just say "Lookie here at these pictures." You have to say where they came from, who took them, etc. That's why the people who took the videos are testifying that they did take the videos and that they show what they are purported to show.
Again this all seems like something to generate "technicalities" that aren't serving the truth.
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 01:44 PM   #369
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 22,929
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It's part of the legal process. One reason for following the rules is to reduce grounds for appeal. You can't just say "Lookie here at these pictures." You have to say where they came from, who took them, etc. That's why the people who took the videos are testifying that they did take the videos and that they show what they are purported to show.
Yeah, court is mainly boring crossing "t"s and dotting "i"s.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 01:49 PM   #370
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 8,788
If you're claiming the police were concerned about the crowd distracting them. According to that video I saw 1 comment made about the crowd by any of the 3 officers on Floyd.

Wow. That was something.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 01:56 PM   #371
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 8,444
This crowd?



Pretty scary stuff.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 02:08 PM   #372
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 12,989
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
This crowd?

https://i.imgur.com/3awUVq7.png

Pretty scary stuff.
What about that toddler waiting for the bus? She looks capable of anything.

Last edited by Bob001; 31st March 2021 at 02:10 PM.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 02:09 PM   #373
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 21,585
Four of whom seem to be waiting for a bus.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 02:10 PM   #374
carlosy
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 411
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
What about that toddler waiting for the bus? He looks capable of anything.
Looks like one of those 3D-printed guns in his hand.
Very dangerous!

Edit, well not the toddler, but suspect number 3.

Last edited by carlosy; 31st March 2021 at 02:11 PM.
carlosy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 02:10 PM   #375
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 21,585
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
What about that toddler waiting for the bus? He looks capable of anything.
Ah ninja-ed.

Yeah, his death stare must have terrified Chauvin to the core.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 02:18 PM   #376
carlosy
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 411
Why didn't they move him off the street anyway?
They could have put him on to the sidewalk behind the car. That would have been saver for the cops and Floyd. (with regards to the traffic)
carlosy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 02:22 PM   #377
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 21,585
"I can't breathe'. "Mama.."

What happened to those two companions..?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2021-03-31 (40).jpg (23.5 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg 2021-03-31 (39).jpg (22.9 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 2021-03-31 (38).jpg (25.1 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg 2021-04-01 (2).jpg (21.8 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 2021-03-31 (41).jpg (24.3 KB, 4 views)
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 02:25 PM   #378
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 21,585
Coming up now, Chauvin's body cam.

I don't think I can bear to watch this.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 02:41 PM   #379
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 21,585
Chauvin's body cam taster. Due to continue tomorrow iirc. He's already got him by the neck.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2021-04-01 (8).jpg (22.4 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg 2021-04-01 (7).jpg (24.2 KB, 4 views)
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 03:19 PM   #380
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 87,819
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Even that is questionable. The EMT testified that it is standard practice for firefighter/EMTs to respond to a medical 911 call before an ambulance. She said her "house" was three blocks away, and other fire stations were close. She said if this was treated as a medical emergency, firefighters would have arrived in seconds. But no fire truck ever arrived.
Apparently the medics met the aid car a couple blocks away and either started or took over CPR. He was already dead, hospital was unable to revive him despite trying for ~40 minutes. I posted the cite upthread.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 03:23 PM   #381
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 87,819
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What I don't get is, why, after having bought his cigarettes and food with his dud twenty-dollar bill, Floyd and his companion didn't just drive off. Instead they are sitting in the car at the kerb, whilst the store junior and another guy confronts him, and they are still there when the police arrive.
I wasn't sure about that either. Could be they hoped to resolve it before being pulled over by the cops down the road.

It's also interesting if Floyd was so intoxicated, why was he the designated driver?
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 03:31 PM   #382
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 87,819
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Is the authenticity of the video in question?

This sounds like procedure for procedure sake. Even legality is not served by questioning facts that are not in question just for the sake of it.
I believe it is standard chain of custody stuff.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 03:40 PM   #383
wasapi
Penultimate Amazing
 
wasapi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 13,412
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
At a point in the event where he had not had anything done to him yet, besides being cuffed and asked politely to please get in the back seat of the police vehicle, he's already blubbering, wailing, claiming he can't breathe, and saying he's dying, calling out for his mamma, etc.

These are not the actions of a dignified, adult male contributor to society.

These are the actions of a clownish, buffoonish, drug addled manchild who is trying absolutely everything he can to avoid facing consequences for his serial criminality. He did it the year before, too.

Sadly, for him, one of the actions he was prepared to take to avoid accountability, both in May 2019 and May 2020, was to swallow his drug stash to avoid being caught with it. It nearly killed him in 2019, but he had the sense to admit what he'd done that time.

It *did* kill him in 2020.

And society is somehow still trying to figure out how to adjust to getting by without George Floyd preying upon it.
Are you serious? Who are you to decide how dignified anyone should be while they are being MURDERED! And sure, that makes it clear. In your opinion, which by the way you pretend to state as evidence, the clown, buffoon, and so on, who didn't contribute to society, therefore deserved to be tortured to death?!!!

I now understand the ignore button.
__________________
Julia
wasapi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 03:48 PM   #384
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,959
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Apparently the defense lawyer claimed that all the bystanders begging for Floyd's life were so noisy and threatening to the cops that it distracted them from the competent performance of their duties. I've heard about blaming the victim, but blaming the witnesses must be a new low.
The connotation of "blame" towards human agency I think is dismissive of these circumstances as factors that might influence how people behave in that situation. Three days before the big game I suffer a minor injury but I'm not supposed to make "excuses" about it in the name of sportsmanship?

It's okay to give probable reasons. It might not be true but if it's a known phenomenon, in this case cops in disarray when confronted by a crowd of loud onlookers, then it's a fair point. I'm saying this more about the cops who supported Chauvin at the scene.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 05:43 PM   #385
Skeptic Tank
Trigger Warning
 
Skeptic Tank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,021
If anyone cares to hear a podcast done for Legal Insurrection by Andrew Branca, an attorney who provided similar coverage for the Zimmerman trial and many since, and who specializes in self-defense law, here you go:

https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/0...und-his-mouth/
__________________
I lost an avatar bet with Meadmaker.
Skeptic Tank is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 05:55 PM   #386
turingtest
Mistral, mistral wind...
 
turingtest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 4,735
Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Are you serious? Who are you to decide how dignified anyone should be while they are being MURDERED! And sure, that makes it clear. In your opinion, which by the way you pretend to state as evidence, the clown, buffoon, and so on, who didn't contribute to society, therefore deserved to be tortured to death?!!!

I now understand the ignore button.
Seriously. For all the time white supremacists, like fundie Christians, spend blubbering and wailing that their group is the most put-upon in society, claiming they can't breathe, and all-around acting like clowns and buffoons, you'd think they'd have the minimum grace or at least enough self-awareness to not complain about what other people contribute to society.
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV;
I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems
Deep Purple- "The Aviator"

Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King
turingtest is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st April 2021, 12:42 AM   #387
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 97,812
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm going to off on a limb here and guess it's because they didn't expect to be murdered by the police in broad daylight.
Well if that was the case if that doesn’t show they were stupid I don’t know what does!
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st April 2021, 12:50 AM   #388
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 97,812
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again this all seems like something to generate "technicalities" that aren't serving the truth.
It’s the opposite - it is stopping “technicalities” being used to suggest reasonable doubt. It happens in all court cases, all matters of fact have to supported by either the defence or prosecutions. And certainly on this side of the pond many appeals will hinge on these matters of fact.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st April 2021, 12:54 AM   #389
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 97,812
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I wasn't sure about that either. Could be they hoped to resolve it before being pulled over by the cops down the road.

It's also interesting if Floyd was so intoxicated, why was he the designated driver?
I don’t think this was a carefully planned social event……
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st April 2021, 12:55 AM   #390
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 8,444
You'd think that the defence and prosecution could get together and stipulate that the videos are genuine and untampered and save a bit of court time (and public money), if they wanted to.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st April 2021, 01:09 AM   #391
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 97,812
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
You'd think that the defence and prosecution could get together and stipulate that the videos are genuine and untampered and save a bit of court time (and public money), if they wanted to.
It is up to the jury to decide what the facts are, not the defence nor prosecution.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st April 2021, 02:02 AM   #392
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 8,444
Yes, but certain facts are not disputed and don't have to be proved. I'm sure they could add this sort of thing to that list.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st April 2021, 03:19 AM   #393
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 97,812
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Yes, but certain facts are not disputed and don't have to be proved. I'm sure they could add this sort of thing to that list.
Generally they do, even down to such things as someone’s name.

If you think about it with something like video evidence a member on a jury could say in deliberations “I’ve seen all sorts of crazy things on YouTube, perhaps someone doctored that video”. Without it being attested in court another member of the jury wouldn’t be able to say “But X, Y, Z testified it was accurate and not altered”.

ETA: Often it is almost done on a nod a “We agree with the defence that the video is accurate” but it still has to be brought up during the trial.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you

Last edited by Darat; 1st April 2021 at 03:20 AM.
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st April 2021, 03:21 AM   #394
carlosy
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 411
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Yes, but certain facts are not disputed and don't have to be proved. I'm sure they could add this sort of thing to that list.
Prosecution: Could you please state your profession
Witness: I have a PhD in astronomy.
Prosecution: Would you agree that the earth moves around the sun
Witness: Yes, that's correct
Prosecution: Is that always the case and especially on date X
Witness: Absolutely, yes.
Prosecution: Ok, I think we established the position of sun in video Y was as it should have been.
Defence: Hmmm, no further questions
carlosy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st April 2021, 03:22 AM   #395
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 8,444
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
ETA: Often it is almost done on a nod a “We agree with the defence that the video is accurate” but it still has to be brought up during the trial.
That's exactly what I've been saying!
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st April 2021, 03:23 AM   #396
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 97,812
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
That's exactly what I've been saying!
Evidence?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st April 2021, 03:23 AM   #397
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 97,812
Sorry couldn’t resist!
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st April 2021, 03:28 AM   #398
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 8,444
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Evidence?
It was in this post.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st April 2021, 03:29 AM   #399
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 8,444
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Sorry couldn’t resist!
Sorry, I meant this post.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st April 2021, 03:55 AM   #400
gnome
Penultimate Amazing
 
gnome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,261
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
If anyone cares to hear a podcast done for Legal Insurrection by Andrew Branca, an attorney who provided similar coverage for the Zimmerman trial and many since, and who specializes in self-defense law, here you go:

https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/0...und-his-mouth/
What I care to hear is your opinion now on whether it was a "by the book" hold as you originally claimed. This is the third time I have asked--it really is a yes or no question to start with. I may ask for more backup, since that point has been disputed already, with no response from you. If you have the courage of your convictions, I think you would be willing to discuss it further.
__________________


Last edited by gnome; 1st April 2021 at 03:58 AM.
gnome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:20 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.