IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Derek Chauvin , George Floyd , murder cases , police incidents , police issues , police misconduct charges

Reply
Old 30th March 2021, 01:36 PM   #161
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 31,491
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I agree with this, murder because bystanders were in contempt of cop.
It's like the concept of "deescalating" offends them on some pure, deep level.
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2021, 01:38 PM   #162
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 87,819
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm hoping that Little Miss "Ooopies me wrong apartment not my fault I was tired and horny" getting at least... some kind of sentence was more than a freaking occurrence and a sign of shifting winds.
Court Date Set For Former Dallas Officer Amber Guyger’s Appeal For Murder Of Botham Jean
Quote:
It was in 2019 when Guyger was sentenced to 10 years in prison for killing her neighbor, Jean, as he sat on his sofa eating ice cream.
She is in jail awaiting an appeal. I don't think 10 years is enough.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 30th March 2021 at 01:43 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2021, 01:39 PM   #163
chrispy
Graduate Poster
 
chrispy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Solola, Guatemala
Posts: 1,095
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I watched the trial. She would probably be parolled after 5 years. Not much time for the crime.
__________________
Just a spec in the Spectrum...
chrispy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2021, 01:43 PM   #164
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 97,812
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That's a very good question.

They already had 3 police cars and I think 6 police officers on station for the *checks notes* handcuffed on the ground suspect so I think "more backup" is rather unlikely.
Considering that quite coincidentally he was going to die from an overdose 8 minutes and 59 seconds after being restrained by Chauvin I wouldn’t have thought he’d be capable of much resisting or running away. At the worse the police would only have had to keep him in sight for just 8 minutes and 59 seconds and then when he dropped dead they could go and pick the body up.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2021, 01:43 PM   #165
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 31,491
Oh (sadly) I am keeping my expectations in the gutter. If he gets five years I'll consider it a win, and just saying that makes me hate myself a little bit.
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2021, 01:45 PM   #166
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 87,819
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Perhaps this has already been answered, but what exactly was Chauvin supposedly waiting for?

Floyd certainly wasn't resisting by the time he went unconscious and later died, and yet he continued the restraint. Testimony from witnesses today claim that he had to be pushed off Floyd's neck by the EMT crew. What exact feedback was Chauvin waiting for that would have resulted in him ending the dangerous neck hold?

At the end of the incident, Chauvin was restraining a dead body. Other than intending to kill Floyd, what possible purpose could this have?
It was bizarre. More of the 'I'm not doing anything wrong so I'll just stay right here to prove it.'
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2021, 01:47 PM   #167
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 87,819
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Considering that quite coincidentally he was going to die from an overdose 8 minutes and 59 seconds after being restrained by Chauvin I wouldn’t have thought he’d be capable of much resisting or running away. At the worse the police would only have had to keep him in sight for just 8 minutes and 59 seconds and then when he dropped dead they could go and pick the body up.
Inconsistency that cannot be reconciled.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2021, 02:11 PM   #168
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 87,819
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh (sadly) I am keeping my expectations in the gutter. If he gets five years I'll consider it a win, and just saying that makes me hate myself a little bit.


Why?
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2021, 02:33 PM   #169
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 87,819
Defense: they didn't give narcan. Total ******** are planning to blame the medics, EMS, dispatch and/or the hospital.

I wonder if they tried narcan at the hospital?
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2021, 02:34 PM   #170
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 12,989
The defense lawyer looks ridiculous trying to cross-examine the EMT. She is reinforcing her testimony. "So you were upset, right?" "Yes, have you ever seen somebody get killed?"

Last edited by Bob001; 30th March 2021 at 02:37 PM.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2021, 02:36 PM   #171
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 12,989
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Considering that quite coincidentally he was going to die from an overdose 8 minutes and 59 seconds after being restrained by Chauvin I wouldn’t have thought he’d be capable of much resisting or running away. At the worse the police would only have had to keep him in sight for just 8 minutes and 59 seconds and then when he dropped dead they could go and pick the body up.
Well, it's turning out that it took nine minutes and 26 seconds. Maybe they were in a hurry.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2021, 04:52 PM   #172
Elagabalus
Philosopher
 
Elagabalus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 7,012
Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
If we did that, hardly anyone would know who George Floyd was, just like Tony Timpa. There would be no worldwide coverage. There would be no military and police standing by. There would be no fortified court buildings. This thread would be buried 12 pages back in the archives. But the perpetually aggrieved and their accomplices can't focus on anything but race.
Tissue?
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2021, 04:54 PM   #173
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 8,788
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That's a very good question.

They already had 3 police cars and I think 6 police officers on station for the *checks notes* handcuffed on the ground suspect so I think "more backup" is rather unlikely.
The EMT said they hadn't requested any resources either, and they had stopped so long she thought the camera was frozen. If he was waiting for something, he wasn't asking for what he was waiting for or giving any reasons. Probably the crowd distracting him...

Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
I remember at the time of the murder hearing something about them knowing eachother from the club Floyd worked security at, but haven't heard anything about it since. Does anyone know any info that I don't? If they did know eachother, maybe a personal grudge?
That was a case of mistaken identity. I can't find the article now, but I believe the person that made that claim said he had confused Floyd with someone else. It is entirely possible that Floyd and Chauvin knew each other from run-ins in the neighborhood. That's just a hunch though, I have no evidence to back it up.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2021, 05:02 PM   #174
chrispy
Graduate Poster
 
chrispy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Solola, Guatemala
Posts: 1,095
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The EMT said they hadn't requested any resources either, and they had stopped so long she thought the camera was frozen. If he was waiting for something, he wasn't asking for what he was waiting for or giving any reasons. Probably the crowd distracting him...



That was a case of mistaken identity. I can't find the article now, but I believe the person that made that claim said he had confused Floyd with someone else. It is entirely possible that Floyd and Chauvin knew each other from run-ins in the neighborhood. That's just a hunch though, I have no evidence to back it up.
Thanks. I couldn't really find anything that either confirmed or denied it. Thanks again.
__________________
Just a spec in the Spectrum...
chrispy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2021, 05:24 PM   #175
Reformed Offlian
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 361
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You understand he was fired last year, right? The issue now is whether -- and for how long -- he goes to prison.
That's what the idiom "take him off the street" means.
Reformed Offlian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2021, 06:23 PM   #176
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 12,989
Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian View Post
That's what the idiom "take him off the street" means.

Generally, but in the case of a cop it can mean take him off duty.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2021, 06:46 PM   #177
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 87,819
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Generally, but in the case of a cop it can mean take him off duty.
I meant both.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 02:33 AM   #178
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 21,585
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Defense attorney went after Williams (MMA fighter that was on the scene) for the things that Williams was yelling. Calling the cops "pussy ass bitch" and so on. It was rough for Williams but he handled it well. The defense attorney got owned because he didn't know that there were "MMA" gyms. He thought he gym only taught a discipline. It was pretty classic.
Anyone would think Donald Williams was the person on trial. Great how he kept his cool. So he called Chauvin a 'bum' and a 'pussy-assed bitch', whilst trying to stop him from killing a guy.

Give us a break.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 02:35 AM   #179
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 21,585
Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
They are obviously setting up the "distraction defense" that they mentioned in opening.
Distraction? Angry mob? All I could see was a small handful of people including a couple of kids.

Er, Eric Nelson, defence attorney, we can actually SEE the scene on video? Er, hallo...?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2021-03-30 (2).jpg (32.0 KB, 10 views)
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 02:38 AM   #180
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 21,585
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The defense also had Williams say that he's choked people out that have gotten back up and fought afterwards. I'm thinking they're going after something like that as well.

Chauvin obviously had no choice but to lean on his neck for 9 minutes because people get back up afterwards sometimes!
Williams did seem to know of all the various types of 'chokes' and he did point out that Chauvin was performing a 'blood choke', which entails cutting off the oxygen supply to the brain, as well as rubbing his knee into the neck stem to increase pressure, leaning more of his weight onto the body than back in the ground.

Likewise, no-one is handcuffed in a martial arts gym session.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 02:48 AM   #181
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 21,585
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It was bizarre. More of the 'I'm not doing anything wrong so I'll just stay right here to prove it.'
More, 'Watch me, I am a cold-blooded psychopath'.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 02:57 AM   #182
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 21,585
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The defense lawyer looks ridiculous trying to cross-examine the EMT. She is reinforcing her testimony. "So you were upset, right?" "Yes, have you ever seen somebody get killed?"
The EMT lost her composure there, which was a score for the defence. Whilst the judge was unbearably patronising and uncivil in berating her, he was actually right to tell her off, as all a witness should do is answer the attorneys' questions, not offering up one's own unasked for opinions. This is because blurting out' Have you ever seen somebody get killed' could be prejudicial to a fair trial, as it is not yet legally established that Chauvin did kill Floyd. A judge's job is to ensure a trial is conducted fairly and properly so he or she will come down hard on anything that could result in a mistrial.

Having said that, with a majority representation of six women on the jury, they will not have liked the judge's overbearing put down of a (rather heroic) female witness, qualified in her field as a first responder. They had been dismissed from the court room at the time, so perhaps they will see in in the widely distributed news videos? In any case, another great boo-boo were the broadcasters omitting to switch their cameras and recordings off whilst the judge reprimanded her (Genevieve Hansen).

We also watched as a member of public was summonsed before the judge to explain why she took a picture on her mobile phone, as taking photos in court during a trial is banned (hence the 'artist's impressions' we get). Not relevant to the viewing public, either.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 03:00 AM   #183
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 97,812
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Anyone would think Donald Williams was the person on trial. Great how he kept his cool. So he called Chauvin a 'bum' and a 'pussy-assed bitch', whilst trying to stop him from killing a guy.

Give us a break.
You need to consider who or rather what he was addressing.

This isn’t a trained person like say a security guard that is trained in non-lethal methods, the target of this vitriol was a scared, trained to use lethal force police officer. We have to think how Chauvin was feeling: here was this mere member of the public cursing him out and Chauvin couldn’t even taser him never mind shoot him. Chauvin must have been so frustrated, so hurt by the cursing he probably forgot that he was in the process of murdering someone, so at the worse this was manslaughter and if the world was just* Williams would have been on trial as he really is much more responsible for the murder by daring to curse at a helpless police officer!


*I know that will be controversial for police officers such as Chauvin who would if the world was truly just have shoot Williams so he wouldn’t even have got to trial. I know it won’t be popular with Officers such as Chauvin but and I’m only putting it out there as a crazy suggestion, perhaps police officiers shouldn’t be judge, jury and executioner?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 06:49 AM   #184
Skeptic Tank
Trigger Warning
 
Skeptic Tank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,021
If there's nothing fatal about the restraint Chauvin was applying, and there isn't - it was literally by the book as it existed at that time, and if you do exactly what he did to Floyd for 10 minutes to any healthy grown man that man will not die from it...

... then what imperative is there to get up off of him before the paramedics arrive?

If Officer Chauvin knew he wasn't doing a restraint which would cause harm, he may have felt that a bunch of ignorant people screaming and getting upset at seeing someone OD (and misinterpreting the cause of that person's distress) was not a sufficient or good reason for him to alter his methods.

From his perspective, he was the cop dealing with a criminal, and none of these bystanders had anything to do with the situation. Their presence was serving zero purpose other than to distract the officers from their duties, and no matter how many of them gathered or how upset and loud they got, none of that changed what he knew.
__________________
I lost an avatar bet with Meadmaker.
Skeptic Tank is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 07:05 AM   #185
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 14,046
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
If there's nothing fatal about the restraint Chauvin was applying, and there isn't - it was literally by the book as it existed at that time, and if you do exactly what he did to Floyd for 10 minutes to any healthy grown man that man will not die from it...

... then what imperative is there to get up off of him before the paramedics arrive?

If Officer Chauvin knew he wasn't doing a restraint which would cause harm, he may have felt that a bunch of ignorant people screaming and getting upset at seeing someone OD (and misinterpreting the cause of that person's distress) was not a sufficient or good reason for him to alter his methods.

From his perspective, he was the cop dealing with a criminal, and none of these bystanders had anything to do with the situation. Their presence was serving zero purpose other than to distract the officers from their duties, and no matter how many of them gathered or how upset and loud they got, none of that changed what he knew.
CHAUVIN CONTINUED THE NECK COMPRESSION FOR TWO FULL MINUTES AFTER A PULSE WAS NO LONGER DETECTED. NECK COMPRESSIONS ARE NOT CP ******* R. THAT MAKES IT COLD-BLOODED MURDER.

ETA: if Floyd, or any other suspect, was not healthy enough to endure a corotid compression without ******* dying, the dumb ass cop should be able to recognize that and stop killing him. For instance, shortly after other police on scene realized he appeared to be dead and began checking for a pulse.

Jesus, guys, this one's not a margin call or gray area.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

Last edited by Thermal; 31st March 2021 at 07:13 AM.
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 07:07 AM   #186
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,738
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I know all that, obviously. Did lynchings ever stop? Segregated everything ever stop?

At some point things do change.
No it didn't in terms of effect but defacto segregation is fine and dandy as long as it isn't dejure I guess.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 07:07 AM   #187
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,498
I'm not aware of any law that allows for people to train away culpability for murder. Criminal law supersedes all training manuals.

If the use of force training for the Minneapolis PD is leading to their officers committing crimes, they should really fix that. Seems like something a police union would be really concerned with, if the training their members were receiving was putting them at risk of committing serious felonies.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 31st March 2021 at 07:09 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 07:09 AM   #188
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 31,491
I'm going to advance the radical notion that if you need to be trained to not kneel on someone's neck until they die the solution isn't "more training."
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 07:14 AM   #189
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 13,114
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Distraction? Angry mob? All I could see was a small handful of people including a couple of kids.

Er, Eric Nelson, defence attorney, we can actually SEE the scene on video? Er, hallo...?
For all we know the defence are just doing what Chauvin asked them to. I hope that the defence lawyers know that the defence claim of distraction is drivel and they are just doing their job presenting Chauvin's defence.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 07:22 AM   #190
Skeptic Tank
Trigger Warning
 
Skeptic Tank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,021
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
CHAUVIN CONTINUED THE NECK COMPRESSION FOR TWO FULL MINUTES AFTER A PULSE WAS NO LONGER DETECTED. NECK COMPRESSIONS ARE NOT CP ******* R. THAT MAKES IT COLD-BLOODED MURDER.

ETA: if Floyd, or any other suspect, was not healthy enough to endure a corotid compression without ******* dying, the dumb ass cop should be able to recognize that and stop killing him. For instance, shortly after other police on scene realized he appeared to be dead and began checking for a pulse.

Jesus, guys, this one's not a margin call or gray area.
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm not aware of any law that allows for people to train away culpability for murder. Criminal law supersedes all training manuals.

If the use of force training for the Minneapolis PD is leading to their officers committing crimes, they should really fix that. Seems like something a police union would be really concerned with, if the training their members were receiving was putting them at risk of committing serious felonies.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm going to advance the radical notion that if you need to be trained to not kneel on someone's neck until they die the solution isn't "more training."
Had what Chauvin was doing been fatal, and had it been something which was cutting off air flow or blood flow to Floyd, Floyd would've been unconscious and then dead within seconds, not nearly 10 minutes.

This man was dying from overdose and happened to be doing it at a time while he was under police restraint, due to his own refusal to get in and stay in a police vehicle. Had he not resisted arrest, he'd have possibly gotten to medical care faster.

It's unfortunate for Mr. Floyd that the paramedics were slow to arrive on scene, but none of this makes the restraint technique Mr. Chauvin was using fatal nor the cause of his death.

It probably didn't help, it probably increased his stress, but I expect he was going to die at approximately the same time from that overdose with or without Chauvin's actions.
__________________
I lost an avatar bet with Meadmaker.
Skeptic Tank is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 07:23 AM   #191
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 8,788
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Williams would have been on trial as he really is much more responsible for the murder by daring to curse at a helpless police officer!
It might be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think Williams helped Floyd all that much. Chauvin gazed at Williams a few times, almost defiantly, while he was kneeling on Floyd. Almost like he was saying "keep calling me names, and I'm not going to move."

By no means is anyone to blame for Floyd's death but Chauvin, but I really don't think Williams actions helped.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 07:26 AM   #192
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,498
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Had what Chauvin was doing been fatal, and had it been something which was cutting off air flow or blood flow to Floyd, Floyd would've been unconscious and then dead within seconds, not nearly 10 minutes.
Everything we know about positional asphyxiation shows that this is plainly not true. Positions that partially restrict or otherwise belabor breathing and blood flow are known to be dangerous if held for extended periods of time, even if they are not immediately and acutely lethal like a fully executed blood choke might be.

Again, the ME report is quite clear that Chauvin's action were the primary cause of death.

This is well known in policing as well. From a 1995 publication by the DOJ:

Quote:
Conclusion To help minimize the risk of positional asphyxia, diligent observation and monitoring of subjects displaying any
one or a combination of the described indicators are procedurally warranted. Furthermore, the use of maximal, prone
restraint techniques should be avoided.
If prone positioning is required, subjects should be closely and continuously
monitored. By implementing such procedural protocols, the potential for incustody deaths may be lessened.
https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles/posasph.pdf

I have a strong feeling that the prosecutor is going to absolutely wreck any argument that restraining a man with no pulse is part of the PD's use of force training. It's beyond absurd that continuing to compress a man in cardiac arrest is something even our barbaric police are instructed to do.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 31st March 2021 at 07:31 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 07:28 AM   #193
Skeptic Tank
Trigger Warning
 
Skeptic Tank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,021
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It was bizarre. More of the 'I'm not doing anything wrong so I'll just stay right here to prove it.'
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It might be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think Williams helped Floyd all that much. Chauvin gazed at Williams a few times, almost defiantly, while he was kneeling on Floyd. Almost like he was saying "keep calling me names, and I'm not going to move."

By no means is anyone to blame for Floyd's death but Chauvin, but I really don't think Williams actions helped.
I agree that the officers probably entered a bit more of a "holding pattern" because of the crowd. Whether this was "I'm going to deliberately refuse to alter my behavior, because now someone has asked me to and I don't want to look reactive or weak" or if it was because they were intimidated by the crowd, or some combination of these things, etc.

Hard to say.

I do know that if the crowd of angry people had been entirely absent, the cops would have been conversing more among themselves, paying more attention to Floyd, and probably trying other things. This seems quite obvious.

But Floyd would have likely still died from his overdose at about the same time anyway.

I suspect once he took the drugs he did, and especially once he got himself worked up resisting arrest, probably the only thing that was going to keep him alive was hospital level care a lot quicker than it was ever going to arrive.
__________________
I lost an avatar bet with Meadmaker.
Skeptic Tank is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 07:30 AM   #194
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 13,114
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
If there's nothing fatal about the restraint Chauvin was applying, and there isn't - it was literally by the book as it existed at that time, and if you do exactly what he did to Floyd for 10 minutes to any healthy grown man that man will not die from it...

... then what imperative is there to get up off of him before the paramedics arrive?
It wrong for the police to assume that the person being restrained is fit and healthy and can survive for a period of time being restrained.

Quote:
If Officer Chauvin knew he wasn't doing a restraint which would cause harm,
How did Chauvin know that Floyd had no medical conditions that meant he could survive?

Quote:
....he may have felt that a bunch of ignorant people screaming and getting upset at seeing someone OD (and misinterpreting the cause of that person's distress) was not a sufficient or good reason for him to alter his methods.
Are you now claiming Chauvin knew Floyd was overdosing and still he thought that someone who is overdosing can survive being restrained for a prolonged period of time?

Quote:
From his perspective, he was the cop dealing with a criminal, and none of these bystanders had anything to do with the situation. Their presence was serving zero purpose other than to distract the officers from their duties, and no matter how many of them gathered or how upset and loud they got, none of that changed what he knew.
As an ex-cop, every single arrest I ever made in a public place drew the attention of those nearby. It is absolutely normal for people to stop, watch and now-a-days film arrests. Chauvin should know that, be used to it and know that whilst he has to keep an eye on the crowd, he cannot become so distracted he is no longer paying any attention to his prisoner.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 07:32 AM   #195
gnome
Penultimate Amazing
 
gnome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,261
I'm wondering what Skeptic Tank knows that the ME didn't... perhaps ST should be consulted on such matters.
__________________

gnome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 07:35 AM   #196
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 13,114
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I agree that the officers probably entered a bit more of a "holding pattern" because of the crowd. Whether this was "I'm going to deliberately refuse to alter my behavior, because now someone has asked me to and I don't want to look reactive or weak" or if it was because they were intimidated by the crowd, or some combination of these things, etc.

Hard to say.

I do know that if the crowd of angry people had been entirely absent, the cops would have been conversing more among themselves, paying more attention to Floyd, and probably trying other things. This seems quite obvious.
You think that the police can only either watch the crowd or monitor their prisoner. In reality, especially when there is more than one officer, they can do both.

Quote:
But Floyd would have likely still died from his overdose at about the same time anyway.

I suspect once he took the drugs he did, and especially once he got himself worked up resisting arrest, probably the only thing that was going to keep him alive was hospital level care a lot quicker than it was ever going to arrive.
Where is the medical evidence that Floyd was about to die anyway outside the shop from a drugs overdose?
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 07:37 AM   #197
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 14,046
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Had what Chauvin was doing been fatal, and had it been something which was cutting off air flow or blood flow to Floyd, Floyd would've been unconscious and then dead within seconds, not nearly 10 minutes.
You're just being willfully obtuse. A slightly imperfect corotid restraint will allow some blood to go, but not enough for sustained consiousness. Its a simple slow choke.

Training in grappling arts, and due to I guess neck musculature or dropping my chin quickly, I'm a tough guy to choke out. Some guys drop quick and easy. You are dreaming to think a street-applied technique is so perfect as to predict the length of duration.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 07:39 AM   #198
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,498
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It might be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think Williams helped Floyd all that much. Chauvin gazed at Williams a few times, almost defiantly, while he was kneeling on Floyd. Almost like he was saying "keep calling me names, and I'm not going to move."

By no means is anyone to blame for Floyd's death but Chauvin, but I really don't think Williams actions helped.
I generally agree, in the sense that "contempt of cop" is something that very often is met by disproportionate and unlawful violence by American police. There's nothing more dangerous than challenging a cop's perception of power and control, and they'll go to great lengths to show uppity citizens who's the boss.

I mean this strictly as pragmatic analysis. People ought to be aware that the pigs will lash out violently if they perceive an insult. This isn't a legal defense by any means, crushing a man to death because you have to show a crowd that you're the man is obviously murder.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 31st March 2021 at 07:42 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 07:40 AM   #199
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 8,788
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
It's unfortunate for Mr. Floyd that the paramedics were slow to arrive on scene, but none of this makes the restraint technique Mr. Chauvin was using fatal nor the cause of his death.
The Minneapolis Chief of Police is calling ******** on your ******** claims because they're ********.

Quote:
Minneapolis Police Chief Medaria Arradondo will also testify that Chauvin's actions were not consistent with department training and policy
Now I know you're an expert at apologizing for racists, but what are Use of Force experts going to say?

Quote:
...witnesses will include Jody Stiger, a sergeant with the Los Angeles Police Department and use of force expert. Stiger will testify that the amount of force Chauvin used against Floyd was “lethal” and “capable of killing a human or putting his or her life in danger”
Hmm, you should be in charge of Chauvin's appeals, when they're needed.

Also, for posterity, have someone kneel on the side of your neck for 9 minutes and 29 seconds. Then see what condition you're in. After all, you should be able to walk away from it, right?

Lastly, if he was having an overdose, he wasn't, but even if he was the answer is not to kneel on his neck. It's to set him on his side, get him oxygen, while keeping him restrained using handcuffs. Your best argument is a complete and total fail.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2021, 07:45 AM   #200
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 8,788
Christopher Martin, I believe he's the store clerk, is on the stand. Testifying that Floyd appeared high but could carry on a conversation.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:15 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.