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Tags Derek Chauvin , George Floyd , murder cases , police incidents , police issues , police misconduct charges

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Old 31st March 2021, 07:49 AM   #201
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Which is stupid because George Floyd isn't the one on trial.
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Old 31st March 2021, 07:49 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Again, the ME report is quite clear that Chauvin's action were the primary cause of death.
The ME sent a note to the DA saying if Floyd had been found in his apartment, his death would've been ruled an OD.

Once there's this much publicity and this many people are upset, all conclusions after that point cannot be trusted entirely.

Had the ME just been given this body and not told anything about Chauvin's actions, would he have concluded "this man's breathing was impeded in some way leading up to his death" ?

Now, if I am wrong here and in reality Chauvin's position on Floyd actually did constitute the "final nail in the coffin" and is what put Floyd over the edge, then I still hope Chauvin either gets off entirely or gets off as lightly as possible.

Why? Because ultimately he was still doing a by the book restraint method he'd been taught. He was also being intimidated by a large crowd of loud, angry people - some of whom were making physical threats.

If he either froze up or failed to recognize Floyd's condition, or "dug in his heels" and kept doing what he was doing - telling himself in his mind "where the hell are the paramedics? they'll know what to do" or something like that, then none of that seems to me to rise to the level of him needing to do prison time for it. Only reason anyone would even float that idea is mob appeasement.

Lessons from this case are:

1.) Don't do drugs.
2.) Don't swallow your stash to avoid cops finding it.
3.) Don't resist arrest.
4.) Don't pass counterfeit money.
5.) When you see police arresting someone, leave them the hell alone to do their job. If they are dealing with a suspect who has compromised health, you distracting them is only going to be another mark against that person's chances of survival. Put down your phone, shut your mouth, and leave.
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Old 31st March 2021, 07:49 AM   #203
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First time I've seen this, but footage is being played from inside the store showing Floyd walking around. Martin is giving the layout of the store. They had some really clear cameras. I'm a little jealous given the ones I have here.
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:05 AM   #204
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I missed a lot because I got a client call. It appears they're just going over the reactions of getting the counterfeit bill. Floyd was bouncing around and acting awkwardly but there was absolutely nothing aggressive or anything. He looked jovial to me.
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:16 AM   #205
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The news is saying the same thing. They just wanted to show that Floyd wasn't violent, he wasn't combative, he didn't appear to have any ill intent when he walked in there. He was carrying a banana though...so. Do with that what you will.
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:18 AM   #206
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Seeing how Floyd was murdered, we'll probably never know if Floyd was intentionally trying to pass a counterfeit note, or was just the unlucky sucker that got left holding a worthless note. Not that it really matters in the context of him being killed by the cops.
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:21 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I missed a lot because I got a client call. It appears they're just going over the reactions of getting the counterfeit bill. Floyd was bouncing around and acting awkwardly but there was absolutely nothing aggressive or anything. He looked jovial to me.
I'm watching it too. He's a man clearly already on drugs, according to his two friends - enough drugs to pass out repeatedly in the car. Also a man who is about to swallow a large amount of additional drugs to avoid cops finding it.

AKA a man about to kill himself.
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:21 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seeing how Floyd was murdered, we'll probably never know if Floyd was intentionally trying to pass a counterfeit note, or was just the unlucky sucker that got left holding a worthless note. Not that it really matters in the context of him being killed by the cops.
The impression that I got from the witness was that getting a counterfeit bill was not abnormal. In fact, they had a policy that if you don't check the bills, receive one, and get caught on it that the amount will come out of your paycheck.

Martin had said he initially decided to just pay for it but changed his mind and told his manager. The bill had a blue tinge to it like a $100 bill vs the green of a regular $20.
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:22 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
....
Why? Because ultimately he was still doing a by the book restraint method he'd been taught. He was also being intimidated by a large crowd of loud, angry people - some of whom were making physical threats.
....
Numerous authorities have said that what Chauvin did was nowhere close to "by the book," and that it was never taught. More important, any restraint hold is used to restrain someone, and then released. Floyd was cuffed and helpless, and Chauvin crushed his neck with a big grin for nine+ minutes.

And there was no "large crowd." The videos show maybe 15 people who stayed on the sidewalk when the cops told them to, including an EMT who offered to help. There's no evidence of anybody making any physical threats.
Chauvin's apologists have to resort to lies because they don't have anything else.
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:27 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The impression that I got from the witness was that getting a counterfeit bill was not abnormal. In fact, they had a policy that if you don't check the bills, receive one, and get caught on it that the amount will come out of your paycheck.

Martin had said he initially decided to just pay for it but changed his mind and told his manager. The bill had a blue tinge to it like a $100 bill vs the green of a regular $20.
I imagine cashiers are much savvier with spotting fakes than the general public.

Side note, the policy you describe sounds an awful lot like wage theft. Firing a cashier for not spotting a fake is lawful, but raiding their paychecks to recoup the expense is not. A reminder that wage theft far exceeds all other types of theft.

Maybe we can reach a compromise. Chauvin gets back on the force, but is only allowed to murder wage-stealing employers from now on.
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:28 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I'm watching it too. He's a man clearly already on drugs, according to his two friends - enough drugs to pass out repeatedly in the car.
So he's high enough to start passing out, but he's such a violent threat he needs to be held down for 9 minutes? Sure, that logic checks out. Any other miracles you want to suggest?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Also a man who is about to swallow a large amount of additional drugs to avoid cops finding it.

AKA a man about to kill himself.
Yes, I've heard your ******** already. Lets see what the ME that you referred to earlier says:

Quote:
“If he were found dead at home alone and no other apparent causes, this could be acceptable to call an O.D. [Over Dose],” the notes say.

“Deaths have been certified with levels of 3,” the notes indicate. “But I am not saying this killed him.
Everything you say is contradicted by the actual people you're pretending to refer to and it's getting worse and worse. Is there anything you've claimed that's actually supported by...anything?
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:29 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Numerous authorities have said that what Chauvin did was nowhere close to "by the book," and that it was never taught. More important, any restraint hold is used to restrain someone, and then released. Floyd was cuffed and helpless, and Chauvin crushed his neck with a big grin for nine+ minutes.

And there was no "large crowd." The videos show maybe 15 people who stayed on the sidewalk when the cops told them to, including an EMT who offered to help. There's no evidence of anybody making any physical threats.
Chauvin's apologists have to resort to lies because they don't have anything else.
15 is a large crowd.

There's already been an admission (along with audio played of it) by one or two of the crowd members, on the stand, that they made physical threats.
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:32 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
So he's high enough to start passing out, but he's such a violent threat he needs to be held down for 9 minutes? Sure, that logic checks out. Any other miracles you want to suggest?



Yes, I've heard your ******** already. Lets see what the ME that you referred to earlier says:



Everything you say is contradicted by the actual people you're pretending to refer to and it's getting worse and worse. Is there anything you've claimed that's actually supported by...anything?
Wonder if a man got lynched on the town square, the ME could equally say "if we found him in his apartment, we would rule it a suicide"
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:33 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
15 is a large crowd.
Says who? What are you basing that off of? Depending on the time there were 4+ cops on the scene. The crowd wasn't large enough, and the cops weren't threatened enough, to have more than 1 cop handling it.

One cop is enough to handle the "large crowd" but it takes 3 to hold down one individual that's already handcuffed. How do you reach these conclusions?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
There's already been an admission (along with audio played of it) by one or two of the crowd members, on the stand, that they made physical threats.
Ok...and? No one attacked them, and the one cop that was handling the cop never called for assistance from the other 3 on Floyd, and he never felt threatened enough to pull a baton, a taser, or his gun. Your logic, again, is extremely lacking.
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:34 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It might be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think Williams helped Floyd all that much. Chauvin gazed at Williams a few times, almost defiantly, while he was kneeling on Floyd. Almost like he was saying "keep calling me names, and I'm not going to move."

By no means is anyone to blame for Floyd's death but Chauvin, but I really don't think Williams actions helped.
It's fortuitous that he was there as a witness, as was Darnell filming it. The video from across the road doesn't really give a clear view of what Chauvin was doing. With eye witnesses, they come as you find them. Williams kept his composure. Put Nelson in his place a few times. So he was shouting at Chauvin to get off Floyd. His language is restrained. 'Bum'? 'Pussy assed bitch'? If that was London I can tell you the language would have been far more obscene and colourful.
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:36 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Wonder if a man got lynched on the town square, the ME could equally say "if we found him in his apartment, we would rule it a suicide"
The prosecutors have stated that they intend to call in experts to discuss how size, tolerance, and usage can effect how an individual reacts to drugs. Obviously Floyd had a tolerance.

Anecdotally, if most women drank the amount of Jim Beam in one evening that I drink they'd probably end up with alcohol poisoning.
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:37 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I agree that the officers probably entered a bit more of a "holding pattern" because of the crowd. Whether this was "I'm going to deliberately refuse to alter my behavior, because now someone has asked me to and I don't want to look reactive or weak" or if it was because they were intimidated by the crowd, or some combination of these things, etc.

Hard to say.

I do know that if the crowd of angry people had been entirely absent, the cops would have been conversing more among themselves, paying more attention to Floyd, and probably trying other things. This seems quite obvious.

But Floyd would have likely still died from his overdose at about the same time anyway.

I suspect once he took the drugs he did, and especially once he got himself worked up resisting arrest, probably the only thing that was going to keep him alive was hospital level care a lot quicker than it was ever going to arrive.
Point out the crowd. Point out the angry people. Point out the 'crowd of angry people'?
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:41 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The Minneapolis Chief of Police is calling ******** on your ******** claims because they're ********.



Now I know you're an expert at apologizing for racists, but what are Use of Force experts going to say?



Hmm, you should be in charge of Chauvin's appeals, when they're needed.

Also, for posterity, have someone kneel on the side of your neck for 9 minutes and 29 seconds. Then see what condition you're in. After all, you should be able to walk away from it, right?

Lastly, if he was having an overdose, he wasn't, but even if he was the answer is not to kneel on his neck. It's to set him on his side, get him oxygen, while keeping him restrained using handcuffs. Your best argument is a complete and total fail.
...And in addition, explain how a man handcuffed behind his back is going to jump up afterwards and be threatening in anyway surrounded by four policemen with their hands on their mace guns, as put to Williams by Nelson.
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:45 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
The ME sent a note to the DA saying if Floyd had been found in his apartment, his death would've been ruled an OD.

Once there's this much publicity and this many people are upset, all conclusions after that point cannot be trusted entirely.

Had the ME just been given this body and not told anything about Chauvin's actions, would he have concluded "this man's breathing was impeded in some way leading up to his death" ?

Now, if I am wrong here and in reality Chauvin's position on Floyd actually did constitute the "final nail in the coffin" and is what put Floyd over the edge, then I still hope Chauvin either gets off entirely or gets off as lightly as possible.

Why? Because ultimately he was still doing a by the book restraint method he'd been taught. He was also being intimidated by a large crowd of loud, angry people - some of whom were making physical threats.

If he either froze up or failed to recognize Floyd's condition, or "dug in his heels" and kept doing what he was doing - telling himself in his mind "where the hell are the paramedics? they'll know what to do" or something like that, then none of that seems to me to rise to the level of him needing to do prison time for it. Only reason anyone would even float that idea is mob appeasement.

Lessons from this case are:

1.) Don't do drugs.
2.) Don't swallow your stash to avoid cops finding it.
3.) Don't resist arrest.
4.) Don't pass counterfeit money.
5.) When you see police arresting someone, leave them the hell alone to do their job. If they are dealing with a suspect who has compromised health, you distracting them is only going to be another mark against that person's chances of survival. Put down your phone, shut your mouth, and leave.
I once gave a shopkeeper (unknowingly) a counterfeit £1 coin (there were thousands, apparently in circulation), and I have also received several in change, also not noticing ATT.

Should I have had a burly cop kneeling on my neck on the ground for ten minutes despite shouting I couldn't breathe?
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:46 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The news is saying the same thing. They just wanted to show that Floyd wasn't violent, he wasn't combative, he didn't appear to have any ill intent when he walked in there. He was carrying a banana though...so. Do with that what you will.
Banana = nature's candy bar.
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:50 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
The ME sent a note to the DA saying if Floyd had been found in his apartment, his death would've been ruled an OD.
Unless Floyd was due to drop dead outside the shop from an OD, his death there was not an OD.

Quote:
Once there's this much publicity and this many people are upset, all conclusions after that point cannot be trusted entirely.

Had the ME just been given this body and not told anything about Chauvin's actions, would he have concluded "this man's breathing was impeded in some way leading up to his death" ?

Now, if I am wrong here and in reality Chauvin's position on Floyd actually did constitute the "final nail in the coffin" and is what put Floyd over the edge, then I still hope Chauvin either gets off entirely or gets off as lightly as possible.

Why? Because ultimately he was still doing a by the book restraint method he'd been taught. He was also being intimidated by a large crowd of loud, angry people - some of whom were making physical threats.

If he either froze up or failed to recognize Floyd's condition, or "dug in his heels" and kept doing what he was doing - telling himself in his mind "where the hell are the paramedics? they'll know what to do" or something like that, then none of that seems to me to rise to the level of him needing to do prison time for it. Only reason anyone would even float that idea is mob appeasement.

Lessons from this case are:

1.) Don't do drugs.
2.) Don't swallow your stash to avoid cops finding it.
3.) Don't resist arrest.
4.) Don't pass counterfeit money.
5.) When you see police arresting someone, leave them the hell alone to do their job. If they are dealing with a suspect who has compromised health, you distracting them is only going to be another mark against that person's chances of survival. Put down your phone, shut your mouth, and leave.
1) Standard procedure in the UK is to take anyone who has potentially swallowed their stash to A&E. Is it in the US?

2) Once someone is arrested, their health and wellbeing becomes the responsibility of the police.

3) Your argument of don't do crime and it you do you may die is a stupid one. There are all sorts of legal things that you can do that also increase your risk of death.

4) It is absolutely correct for the public to watch an arrest in public, in the same way that the public are allowed to watch trials. It is part of democracy, for the state to be open to public scrutiny.
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:54 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I once gave a shopkeeper (unknowingly) a counterfeit £1 coin (there were thousands, apparently in circulation), and I have also received several in change, also not noticing ATT.

Should I have had a burly cop kneeling on my neck on the ground for ten minutes despite shouting I couldn't breathe?
Burly? Chauvin was 5'9" and 140 lbs. Petite.

As for whether you should've had someone restraining and arresting you after you gave the shopkeeper that coin?

I'd need to know more:

1.) Did you refuse to correct the error when called on it?
2.) Did you then resist arrest?
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:56 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Burly? Chauvin was 5'9" and 140 lbs. Petite.

As for whether you should've had someone restraining and arresting you after you gave the shopkeeper that coin?

I'd need to know more:

1.) Did you refuse to correct the error when called on it?
2.) Did you then resist arrest?
The shopkeeper was clearly familiar with them as he looked at it and handed it back to me. I thereby apologised and gave him the correct money.

(He was the one who probably gave it to me in the first place, as I rarely used cash.)
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:57 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I'm watching it too. He's a man clearly already on drugs, according to his two friends - enough drugs to pass out repeatedly in the car. Also a man who is about to swallow a large amount of additional drugs to avoid cops finding it.

AKA a man about to kill himself.
Unless there is evidence from a post mortem that the quantity of drugs in his system was at a fatal level, he did not die from drugs.

Everything I have read online states that there were drugs in his system, but none state that the level was high enough to kill and reports about the post mortems state OD was not a cause of death.
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:58 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Point out the crowd. Point out the angry people. Point out the 'crowd of angry people'?
Looks like I overestimated. Not even close to 15.
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:00 AM   #226
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It appears that the people in the car had multiple counterfeit $20 bills. They had ripped up a few of them when confronted by the store clerk.
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:01 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Looks like I overestimated. Not even close to 15.
It's been confirmed as 12 or 14 (can't recall which) in court already.

That screenshot must be from a time when the crowd had not yet reached its full size.
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:01 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
15 is a large crowd.

There's already been an admission (along with audio played of it) by one or two of the crowd members, on the stand, that they made physical threats.
Williams said something like "Try that with me and I'll slap you silly." But the cops didn't try that with him, and they never behaved as if they felt threatened. There was indignant speech, no physical threat.
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:05 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
It's been confirmed as 12 or 14 (can't recall which) in court already.

That screenshot must be from a time when the crowd had not yet reached its full size.
No, that was at the point Genevieve Hansen arrived. These were ordinary passersby going about their normal day, not 'an angry crowd'.
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:08 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The news is saying the same thing. They just wanted to show that Floyd wasn't violent, he wasn't combative, he didn't appear to have any ill intent when he walked in there. He was carrying a banana though...so. Do with that what you will.
Great now they need to show this video in court. It really helps clear the police actions.

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Old 31st March 2021, 09:10 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, that was at the point Genevieve Hansen arrived. These were ordinary passersby going about their normal day, not 'an angry crowd'.
It doesn't even matter if there were 30 people there, it's a red herring. The cops never indicated they were threatened, they never acted threatened, the other 3 cops never came over to assist, none of the cops were attacked.

In fact, if the crowd size was a factor, Chauvin would have had to stop kneeling on Floyd to do crowd management. It means nothing, it means **** all.
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:11 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It doesn't even matter if there were 30 people there, it's a red herring. The cops never indicated they were threatened, they never acted threatened, the other 3 cops never came over to assist, none of the cops were attacked.

In fact, if the crowd size was a factor, Chauvin would have had to stop kneeling on Floyd to do crowd management. It means nothing, it means **** all.
Witness testimony on the stand has already confirmed that more than one officer drew their pepper spray in reaction to the crowd.

That's acting threatened.
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:14 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Witness testimony on the stand has already confirmed that more than one officer drew their pepper spray in reaction to the crowd.

That's acting threatened.
One said a cop put his hand on his holstered pepper spray. The videos don't show anybody holding it.
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:14 AM   #234
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What's interesting is the young store guy Martin (?) is giving evidence for the prosecution.
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:18 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Witness testimony on the stand has already confirmed that more than one officer drew their pepper spray in reaction to the crowd.

That's acting threatened.
No, that is the cops feeling threatened and acting scared.

Having to deal with a crowd does not mean there is no longer a duty of care for the arrested person.
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:20 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What's interesting is the young store guy Martin (?) is giving evidence for the prosecution.
Why wouldn't he? He was a witness to the crime Chauvin is charged with.
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:21 AM   #237
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What happened to the "By the book restraint" argument, by the way? Is that still ST's point or is ST conceding that matter?
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:23 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Witness testimony on the stand has already confirmed that more than one officer drew their pepper spray in reaction to the crowd.

That's acting threatened.
As mentioned, no they didn't draw their pepper spray. Also, an individual instance of something happening doesn't mean they felt threatened enough to kill someone that wasn't threatening them. This is basic common sense.
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:26 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
....
Side note, the policy you describe sounds an awful lot like wage theft. Firing a cashier for not spotting a fake is lawful, but raiding their paychecks to recoup the expense is not. A reminder that wage theft far exceeds all other types of theft.
....
Sounds like a sleazy practice, especially to impose on some teenager. But if it's presented as "I can either fire you for negligence, or you can just make up the loss and we'll forget about it," I'm not sure that's what we usually mean by wage theft.
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:34 AM   #240
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I see there are two racists this this thread who believe that skin color makes it ok to have the Street Judges kill black men.

What George Floyd did was not a Death Sentence.

And while I am disappointed that the forum allows these racists to participate here, at least they are easily identifiable.
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