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Tags Derek Chauvin , George Floyd , murder cases , police incidents , police issues , police misconduct charges

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Old 31st March 2021, 09:35 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Sounds like a sleazy practice, especially to impose on some teenager. But if it's presented as "I can either fire you for negligence, or you can just make up the loss and we'll forget about it," I'm not sure that's what we usually mean by wage theft.
"Illegal deductions" are included in the broader category of wage theft. "let me steal from you or you're fired" is absolutely wage theft.

I shouldn't have brought this up, it's off topic. I only mention it because it's an interesting comparison. Someone trying to pass a bad note gets murdered by the police, meanwhile the much larger problem of wage theft is largely unhindered by the police. White collar crime gets the blind eye again.
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:37 AM   #242
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This young store worker is unbelievably composed for such a young man.
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:45 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Why wouldn't he? He was a witness to the crime Chauvin is charged with.
Well, as the person who helped call the cops with his manager, he could be seen to be a hostile witness insofar he wouldn't want to be responsible for the cops arrival.

Could be a clever ploy for the prosecution to pre-empt his testimony by getting in there first. The more the defence can make Floyd seeming to have contributed to his own treatment, the lesser the sentence for Chauvin. So we have the defence saying Floyd was clearly under the influence of something.

Anyway, the witness looks uncomfortable, constantly moving as though wanting to get up to leave and adjusting his clothing, indicating perspiration (= stress signals).
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:46 AM   #244
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Looks like another witness taking the stand. I believe his name was Belfree (sp?). I didn't catch the first name. It appears he lived in the neighborhood.
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:46 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No it didn't in terms of effect but defacto segregation is fine and dandy as long as it isn't dejure I guess.


At some point things do change. Did I say instantly end? Things like this change gradually, but they do change.

And it will be uneven, not all departments will change the ambiance of police departments at the same time.
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:50 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm not aware of any law that allows for people to train away culpability for murder. Criminal law supersedes all training manuals.

If the use of force training for the Minneapolis PD is leading to their officers committing crimes, they should really fix that. Seems like something a police union would be really concerned with, if the training their members were receiving was putting them at risk of committing serious felonies.
This is a reasonable way to get the unions away from their rabidly defending any officer for any crime. Put the bug in their ear that this is the problem they should address rather than the cop's criminal abuse of power.
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:53 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm going to advance the radical notion that if you need to be trained to not kneel on someone's neck until they die the solution isn't "more training."
In this specific case the solution would have been to weed ******** like this scum out before this happens. No one was paying attention because this behavior didn't start with Floyd. And worse, they sent 2 trainees to learn from him.
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:54 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
For all we know the defence are just doing what Chauvin asked them to. I hope that the defence lawyers know that the defence claim of distraction is drivel and they are just doing their job presenting Chauvin's defence.
The defense doesn't have much to work with, do they.
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:55 AM   #249
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So this Chris Belfry, current witness, went to the store to get some food. As he pulled up behind Floyd's car he testifies he saw police approach with 'guns drawn', so he started recording.
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:56 AM   #250
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They showing George sitting up against a building. That's it. I think that's the point. No fighting or being combative. Just sitting against, what appears to be, the Asian restaurant.

ETA:

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So this Chris Belfry, current witness, went to the store to get some food. As he pulled up behind Floyd's car he testifies he saw police approach with 'guns drawn', so he started recording.
Thanks, I missed the full name.
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Old 31st March 2021, 10:00 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
....
I shouldn't have brought this up, it's off topic. I only mention it because it's an interesting comparison. Someone trying to pass a bad note gets murdered by the police, meanwhile the much larger problem of wage theft is largely unhindered by the police. White collar crime gets the blind eye again.
That's another consequence of the decline of unions. An abused worker doesn't have any place to get help.
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Old 31st March 2021, 10:00 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It might be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think Williams helped Floyd all that much. Chauvin gazed at Williams a few times, almost defiantly, while he was kneeling on Floyd. Almost like he was saying "keep calling me names, and I'm not going to move."

By no means is anyone to blame for Floyd's death but Chauvin, but I really don't think Williams actions helped.
The prosecution can work with this actually. In the video it's clear that Thao had the crowd control well in hand. That only leaves Chauvin's being affected by a few insults and taunts. You can see Chauvin calmly ignore the crowd with a smirk. And, if the crowd really was such a problem the procedure would be to get Floyd out of there as soon as possible which they not only did not do, they made no effort to do.
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Old 31st March 2021, 10:01 AM   #253
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Belfry caught the moment (video) Floyd was handcuffed. (He had been on the ground but then pulled to his feet.)
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Old 31st March 2021, 10:02 AM   #254
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Old 31st March 2021, 10:04 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Belfry caught the moment (video) Floyd was handcuffed. (He had been on the ground but then pulled to his feet.)
And of course it only takes one cop, and Floyd is not resisting.
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Old 31st March 2021, 10:05 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
They showing George sitting up against a building. That's it. I think that's the point. No fighting or being combative. Just sitting against, what appears to be, the Asian restaurant.

ETA:



Thanks, I missed the full name.
AIUI whilst the other guy in the car got out immediately, Floyd had to be pulled out. More because he was off his head ISTM rather than being resistant or aggressive.
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Old 31st March 2021, 10:12 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
AIUI whilst the other guy in the car got out immediately, Floyd had to be pulled out. More because he was off his head ISTM rather than being resistant or aggressive.
He certainly didn't want to get out of the car, that's for sure. I wish I could have heard more of the conversation that was going on between the cops and those in the car.
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Old 31st March 2021, 10:20 AM   #258
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Soooooooooooo much of this trial simply won't matter a whit.

"Chauvin, why did you keep your knee on the neck of a man who officers could not detect a pulse on, for an additional two minutes? Why did paramedics have to push you off him in an attempt to save his life? Did you understand at the time what 'no pulse' means to human life?"
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Old 31st March 2021, 10:22 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Soooooooooooo much of this trial simply won't matter a whit.

"Chauvin, why did you keep your knee on the neck of a man who officers could not detect a pulse on, for an additional two minutes? Why did paramedics have to push you off him in an attempt to save his life? Did you understand at the time what 'no pulse' means to human life?"
That brings up a good point, a lot of this case surrounds what's going on in Chauvin's head. Do they have him take the stand in this case? It would obviously open him up to cross but it would allow him to at least make some excuses as to why he did what he did.
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Old 31st March 2021, 10:23 AM   #260
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Yeah but none of that is going to matter. Odds are there will be at least one Skeptic Tank on the jury that sees "Heroic cop and scawwy black thug" and their brains stop processing any information beyond that.
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Old 31st March 2021, 10:23 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Point out the crowd. Point out the angry people. Point out the 'crowd of angry people'?
Were there even 15 people there? There certainly isn't in that photo.


Does Chauvin have some explanation for what he was waiting for?
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Old 31st March 2021, 10:27 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
That brings up a good point, a lot of this case surrounds what's going on in Chauvin's head. Do they have him take the stand in this case? It would obviously open him up to cross but it would allow him to at least make some excuses as to why he did what he did.
I can't imagine a word Chauvin could say to make him less of a sociopath, except to plead guilty, accept his punishment, and beg forgiveness.

Cross, though, would nail him to one.
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Old 31st March 2021, 10:47 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
No, that is the cops feeling threatened and acting scared.

Having to deal with a crowd does not mean there is no longer a duty of care for the arrested person.
They fulfilled their duty of care by restraining him so he couldn't harm himself or others, and then calling for a medical unit and also calling back to "step it up" and ask for the fastest medical unit response.

It's a shame that he took a fatal amount of drugs, lived a criminal lifestyle, that a crowd distracted the officers from their job, and that the medical unit arrived slowly.

Hard to argue that him dying is any great loss to society, though - based on what we know of his life and rap sheet.

Officer Chauvin being fired and potentially being imprisoned is a far greater loss for society. He was an actual contributing member of society who was acting in a capacity which increased order and safety, whereas Floyd had taken on a life pattern of increasing chaos and danger for others.
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Old 31st March 2021, 10:55 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Officer Chauvin being fired and potentially being imprisoned is a far greater loss for society. He was an actual contributing member of society who was acting in a capacity which increased order and safety, whereas Floyd had taken on a life pattern of increasing chaos and danger for others.
I can't wait to see him in prison. I seriously can't wait.

It's going to be ******* miserable for him, and to top it off, I bet he'll have to be in solitary. There's no way he'll ever want to be in general population given he's a cop that killed an unarmed, handcuffed individual. His life, for however long he gets, will be confined to a small cell, 3 meals a day, and an hour of exercise so that he doesn't get shanked. Maybe, just maybe, he'll get a taste of the fear that he instilled in Floyd during his last minutes.

I'm here for all of it...too bad not even Chauvin's family will show up for him in court. The one seat reserved for his family is empty. I absolutely love it.
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Old 31st March 2021, 11:00 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
"Illegal deductions" are included in the broader category of wage theft. "let me steal from you or you're fired" is absolutely wage theft.

I shouldn't have brought this up, it's off topic. I only mention it because it's an interesting comparison. Someone trying to pass a bad note gets murdered by the police, meanwhile the much larger problem of wage theft is largely unhindered by the police. White collar crime gets the blind eye again.
Years and years ago when I worked as a waitress we were told if any of our customers walked out without paying we'd be responsible for the check. I don't recall it ever happened while I worked there.
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Old 31st March 2021, 11:00 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I can't wait to see him in prison. I seriously can't wait.

It's going to be ******* miserable for him, and to top it off, I bet he'll have to be in solitary. There's no way he'll ever want to be in general population given he's a cop that killed an unarmed, handcuffed individual. His life, for however long he gets, will be confined to a small cell, 3 meals a day, and an hour of exercise so that he doesn't get shanked. Maybe, just maybe, he'll get a taste of the fear that he instilled in Floyd during his last minutes.

I'm here for all of it...too bad not even Chauvin's family will show up for him in court. The one seat reserved for his family is empty. I absolutely love it.
Not sure if his family supports him or not, but if I were them, I wouldn't want my mug on tv one way or the other. Guaranteed they'd be getting some new unwanted attention from one camp or the other if they were highly publicized.
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Old 31st March 2021, 11:04 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I can't wait to see him in prison. I seriously can't wait.

It's going to be ******* miserable for him, and to top it off, I bet he'll have to be in solitary. There's no way he'll ever want to be in general population given he's a cop that killed an unarmed, handcuffed individual. His life, for however long he gets, will be confined to a small cell, 3 meals a day, and an hour of exercise so that he doesn't get shanked. Maybe, just maybe, he'll get a taste of the fear that he instilled in Floyd during his last minutes.

I'm here for all of it...too bad not even Chauvin's family will show up for him in court. The one seat reserved for his family is empty. I absolutely love it.
This sounds far more sadistic and reveling in the pain of another person than anything I see any evidence of from Chauvin himself, on that video.

He looked like someone who, at worst, froze up and/or locked into continuing what he was already doing. Out of some combination of believing what he was doing was not causing Floyd any harm (possibly entirely correct in that belief) and possibly also stubbornly refusing to alter his behavior in any way on the basis of what angry civilians were yelling at him.

It's entirely possible that he simply thought "this restraint technique isn't harming him, he's ODing, where the hell are the EMTs?" and never intended any harm to Floyd, and is possibly convinced to this day that he played no significant role in Floyd's death. Again, he MAY BE 100% CORRECT IN THAT.

Regardless of whether he's right about that, or whether some "freezing up" and such like I mentioned are factors here, none of it adds up to some sadistic, deliberate murder.

You've got a murky situation where a man with a fatal dose of drugs dies while resisting arrest. At worst, the cops may have acted a little differently if they had it to do over again. Even with them going into maximum "care mode" - Floyd may have still expired. We won't ever know that.

I cannot imagine what sort of mindset leads someone to be ravenously excited to see a police officer, someone who voluntarily went out and dealt with the most dangerous, roughest elements of our society - for the sake of all of our ability to conduct safe lives --- end up in prison, and not just in prison, but in prison for as long as possible, suffering as much as possible.

This mindset baffles me.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not sure if his family supports him or not, but if I were them, I wouldn't want my mug on tv one way or the other. Guaranteed they'd be getting some new unwanted attention from one camp or the other if they were highly publicized.
Exactly. His family is absent because of the same reason we are having this trial at all, and the same reason he'll probably get convicted: the bloodthirsty mob that everyone knows will burn down the country (again) if he (rightly) gets exonerated.
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Old 31st March 2021, 11:08 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not sure if his family supports him or not, but if I were them, I wouldn't want my mug on tv one way or the other. Guaranteed they'd be getting some new unwanted attention from one camp or the other if they were highly publicized.
His wife is actually divorcing him, changing her name, and taking the titles to both homes over the whole thing. Which is the right thing to do.

That being said, it's understandable that she wouldn't be in the courtroom as well. She's got her own problems...

Quote:
Former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin and his wife, Kellie, have been charged with tax fraud.

According to court records, the Chauvins are charged with nine counts of aiding and abetting taxes for failing to file or filing fraudulent tax returns in Washington County.
That being said, no matter what I did one of my parents would be there.
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Old 31st March 2021, 11:09 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
This sounds far more sadistic and reveling in the pain of another person than anything I see any evidence of from Chauvin himself, on that video.

He looked like someone who, at worst, froze up and/or locked into continuing what he was already doing. Out of some combination of believing what he was doing was not causing Floyd any harm (possibly entirely correct in that belief) and possibly also stubbornly refusing to alter his behavior in any way on the basis of what angry civilians were yelling at him.

It's entirely possible that he simply thought "this restraint technique isn't harming him, he's ODing, where the hell are the EMTs?" and never intended any harm to Floyd, and is possibly convinced to this day that he played no significant role in Floyd's death. Again, he MAY BE 100% CORRECT IN THAT.

Regardless of whether he's right about that, or whether some "freezing up" and such like I mentioned are factors here, none of it adds up to some sadistic, deliberate murder.

You've got a murky situation where a man with a fatal dose of drugs dies while resisting arrest. At worst, the cops may have acted a little differently if they had it to do over again. Even with them going into maximum "care mode" - Floyd may have still expired. We won't ever know that.

I cannot imagine what sort of mindset leads someone to be ravenously excited to see a police officer, someone who voluntarily went out and dealt with the most dangerous, roughest elements of our society - for the sake of all of our ability to conduct safe lives --- end up in prison, and not just in prison, but in prison for as long as possible, suffering as much as possible.

This mindset baffles me.



Exactly. His family is absent because of the same reason we are having this trial at all, and the same reason he'll probably get convicted: the bloodthirsty mob that everyone knows will burn down the country (again) if he (rightly) gets exonerated.
"We can't find a pulse"

*knee remains on neck for two minutes till EMTs push him off*

That's murder, full stop. No excuses, no "freezing", no distracting crowds, no "he deserved it". Just cold blooded murder.
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Old 31st March 2021, 11:11 AM   #270
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George Floyd used a fake 20 dollar bill.

Derek Chauvin committed tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars in tax fraud.

I'd love to know the mental gymnastics Skeptic Tank has to make to get to that means Derek Chauvin was a more "contributing member of society."
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Old 31st March 2021, 11:13 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
George Floyd used a fake 20 dollar bill.

Derek Chauvin committed tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars in tax fraud.

I'd love to know the mental gymnastics Skeptic Tank has to make to get to that means Derek Chauvin was a more "contributing member of society."
You just have to look at the color of their skin.
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Old 31st March 2021, 11:14 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
His wife is actually divorcing him, changing her name, and taking the titles to both homes over the whole thing. Which is the right thing to do.

That being said, it's understandable that she wouldn't be in the courtroom as well. She's got her own problems...
That's right, I forgot about the wife and all. Thanks.

Quote:
That being said, no matter what I did one of my parents would be there.
Yeah, I can see that. The defense would probably want them there, too. "Look, he's not a monster, mommy and daddy wuv him".
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Old 31st March 2021, 11:15 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
You just have to look at the color of their skin.
Oh I know. And honestly since Skeptic Tank has already openly claimed his racism with pride multiple times on this board I don't get who act of him pretending there's any other reason is supposed to be for exactly.
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Old 31st March 2021, 11:20 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
This sounds far more sadistic and reveling in the pain of another person than anything I see any evidence of from Chauvin himself, on that video.
Yeah, well. You're glorifying the death of another human. You'll have to excuse me if I don't take your views on my posts as worth much, if anything.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
He looked like someone who, at worst, froze up and/or locked into continuing what he was already doing. Out of some combination of believing what he was doing was not causing Floyd any harm (possibly entirely correct in that belief) and possibly also stubbornly refusing to alter his behavior in any way on the basis of what angry civilians were yelling at him.
Yeah, we call that murder. All of your other excuses aside, you just made the exact case as to why he's going to prison. Even if it's painted in the best light possible, as you're doing, he's still going to prison for that reason. He made a decision to not move, it was his decision alone.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
It's entirely possible that he simply thought "this restraint technique isn't harming him, he's ODing, where the hell are the EMTs?" and never intended any harm to Floyd, and is possibly convinced to this day that he played no significant role in Floyd's death. Again, he MAY BE 100% CORRECT IN THAT.
He's not correct in that, and it doesn't matter what he thought he was doing. The road to hell is paved in good intentions. Just to let you in on a little secret. This isn't the first time Chauvin did this. In that case:

Quote:
“About a minute after going to the ground, the child began repeatedly telling the officers that he could not breathe, and his mother told Chauvin to take his knee off her son,” prosecutors wrote. They added that the mother asked Chauvin to take his knee off her son four times because her son couldn’t breathe, but that Chauvin maintained his position and replied that her son, who Chauvin described as 6 feet, 2 inches tall and at least 240 pounds, was “a big guy.”
He knew EXACTLY what would happen since he did it to another male almost exactly the same physical make up as Floyd.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Regardless of whether he's right about that, or whether some "freezing up" and such like I mentioned are factors here, none of it adds up to some sadistic, deliberate murder.
At least according to you. Then again, you'll make excuses for him no matter what.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
You've got a murky situation where a man with a fatal dose of drugs dies while resisting arrest. At worst, the cops may have acted a little differently if they had it to do over again. Even with them going into maximum "care mode" - Floyd may have still expired. We won't ever know that.
Then don't bother bringing it up. He may have, but because of Chauvin he did. There's a criminal name for that, guess what it is.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I cannot imagine what sort of mindset leads someone to be ravenously excited to see a police officer, someone who voluntarily went out and dealt with the most dangerous, roughest elements of our society - for the sake of all of our ability to conduct safe lives --- end up in prison, and not just in prison, but in prison for as long as possible, suffering as much as possible.

This mindset baffles me.
Then you'll totally understand how I feel about your mindset regarding killing another human. You are right though, I'm totally stoked for a murderer that murdered someone to go to prison for murder and suffer the consequences of his actions that caused someone to die. Also, he didn't volunteer. He received a paycheck for doing a job. Maybe you don't know what the word volunteer means?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Exactly. His family is absent because of the same reason we are having this trial at all, and the same reason he'll probably get convicted: the bloodthirsty mob that everyone knows will burn down the country (again) if he (rightly) gets exonerated.
Well that and his wife is leaving him because he's a piece of **** that murdered someone, but your story is cool too.
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Old 31st March 2021, 11:22 AM   #275
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Store cashier who suspected George Floyd of using fake $20 bill says he feels guilty
CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/31/us/de...y-3/index.html

And... he shouldn't. George Floyd, by all accounts, was committed a crime. The person called the police. And it wasn't even a Karen/Xing while Black scenario. If you own/operate a retail establishment and someone tries to give you counterfeit money, you are perfectly reasonable and within reasonable and normal recourse to call the police.

It's not Mr. Martin's fault that the police decided to carry out a daylight execution.
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Old 31st March 2021, 11:22 AM   #276
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Charles McMillian is now on the stand and they're starting with his background.

ETA: He was driving a car in the neighborhood when this was taking place. So he's another eyewitness.
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Old 31st March 2021, 11:24 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Store cashier who suspected George Floyd of using fake $20 bill says he feels guilty
I can't imagine the way he feels. He had briefly thought of not doing anything and just paying for it out of his pocket, but rightfully decided he shouldn't have to do that. As you said, Floyd committed a crime and should have been held accountable. Poor guy.
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Old 31st March 2021, 11:31 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I can't imagine the way he feels. He had briefly thought of not doing anything and just paying for it out of his pocket, but rightfully decided he shouldn't have to do that. As you said, Floyd committed a crime and should have been held accountable. Poor guy.
Only if he knew the bill was fake would it be a crime.
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Old 31st March 2021, 11:34 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Only if he knew the bill was fake would it be a crime.
No, that's not the way it works. If I steal a $20 bill and it turns out to be fake, I still committed a crime by stealing it. My ignorance doesn't excuse the crime.

Also, he was told it was fake multiple times and did nothing to rectify the situation. He didn't deserve to die, but please don't excuse the criminal actions Floyd did make.
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Old 31st March 2021, 11:35 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
If there's nothing fatal about the restraint Chauvin was applying, and there isn't - it was literally by the book as it existed at that time, and if you do exactly what he did to Floyd for 10 minutes to any healthy grown man that man will not die from it...

... then what imperative is there to get up off of him before the paramedics arrive?

If Officer Chauvin knew he wasn't doing a restraint which would cause harm, he may have felt that a bunch of ignorant people screaming and getting upset at seeing someone OD (and misinterpreting the cause of that person's distress) was not a sufficient or good reason for him to alter his methods.

From his perspective, he was the cop dealing with a criminal, and none of these bystanders had anything to do with the situation. Their presence was serving zero purpose other than to distract the officers from their duties, and no matter how many of them gathered or how upset and loud they got, none of that changed what he knew.
Look up “egg shell skull”.
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