The Derek Chauvin/George Floyd Murder Trial - Page 8

Skeptic Tank · 31st March 2021, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

He knew EXACTLY what would happen since he did it to another male almost exactly the same physical make up as Floyd.

So, if he "knew exactly what would happen" then I take it that individual died also?

Oh, no. I just looked it up. 17 minutes in that case, and the person didn't die.

In other words, Chauvin expected Floyd to survive what he was doing to him.

Originally Posted by plague311

Well that and his wife is leaving him because he's a piece of **** that murdered someone, but your story is cool too.

Would she have left him had this incident never happened? Probably not.

Folks are doing exactly what they did to Zimmerman. Destroy his life with insane levels of negative attention and putting him through a show trial, and then point at the fallout of that in his life as evidence he was always an awful person.

When something like this happens to someone, their life falls apart. One among many good reasons not to do this to someone.

Bob001 · 31st March 2021, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

No, that's not the way it works. If I steal a $20 bill and it turns out to be fake, I still committed a crime by stealing it. My ignorance doesn't excuse the crime.
....

One commentator said it would only be a misdemeanor in Minnesota. The cops could have handed Floyd a citation and sent him on his way. They didn't even have to arrest him. And there is only the word of a teenage clerk that Floyd handed him a counterfeit bill. The cops had no way to know whether it really was, or where it came from. This is a questionable arrest, let alone killing.

SuburbanTurkey · 31st March 2021, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank

Folks are doing exactly what they did to Zimmerman.

I don't want to jinx it, but I'd say we're doing a far better job. With any luck Chauvin will be attempting to kill himself in prison within the year.

ponderingturtle · 31st March 2021, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

No, that's not the way it works. If I steal a $20 bill and it turns out to be fake, I still committed a crime by stealing it. My ignorance doesn't excuse the crime.

Also, he was told it was fake multiple times and did nothing to rectify the situation. He didn't deserve to die, but please don't excuse the criminal actions Floyd did make.

But was that before or after it was accepted? But yes clearly refusing takebacksies is a crime. Like buying something that had a miss labeled price.

JoeMorgue · 31st March 2021, 11:44 AM

LondonJohn · 31st March 2021, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

His wife is actually divorcing him, changing her name, and taking the titles to both homes over the whole thing. Which is the right thing to do.

When you say it's "the right thing to do", do you mean that it's morally the right thing to do?

Or do you mean that it's financially the right thing to do? Because that's almost certainly what's driving all of this: whether he's convicted or acquitted, Chauvin is likely to face 1) a fair amount of legal costs, and 2) (and much more financially significant) a civil suit from Floyd's family for many millions of dollars. If he's divorced from his wife, and if his wife has legal title to those assets, then those assets will be untouchable wrt demands for legal fees or court orders to pay any damages awarded to Floyd's family in a successful civil suit.

Bob001 · 31st March 2021, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank

....
I cannot imagine what sort of mindset leads someone to be ravenously excited to see a police officer, someone who voluntarily went out and dealt with the most dangerous, roughest elements of our society - for the sake of all of our ability to conduct safe lives --- end up in prison, and not just in prison, but in prison for as long as possible, suffering as much as possible.
....

We endow cops with extraordinary power -- literally the power of life and death -- and we require them to use it responsibly. When they don't, we need to hold them accountable. A badge isn't a blank check.

And police work isn't even among the top 10 most dangerous jobs. If it's okay for cops to kill people when they get scared, maybe taxi drivers, truck drivers and 7-11 clerks should get the same privilege.

SuburbanTurkey · 31st March 2021, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

When you say it's "the right thing to do", do you mean that it's morally the right thing to do?

Or do you mean that it's financially the right thing to do? Because that's almost certainly what's driving all of this: whether he's convicted or acquitted, Chauvin is likely to face 1) a fair amount of legal costs, and 2) (and much more financially significant) a civil suit from Floyd's family for many millions of dollars. If he's divorced from his wife, and if his wife has legal title to those assets, then those assets will be untouchable wrt demands for legal fees or court orders to pay any damages awarded to Floyd's family in a successful civil suit.

Is that the case? Whatever tort Chauvin committed occurred while they were married. Would divorce after the fact really shield these assets?

plague311 · 31st March 2021, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank

So, if he "knew exactly what would happen" then I take it that individual died also?

Oh, no. I just looked it up. 17 minutes in that case, and the person didn't die.

In other words, Chauvin expected Floyd to survive what he was doing to him.

No kidding?

Quote:

Prosecutors say the body camera footage showed Chauvin was kneeling on the 14-year-old boy’s back for a total of 17 minutes despite repeated requests by the teenager to turn him on his back because he couldn’t breathe.

Did you know that the neck is not the back? Glad I could help. The point of the link was to show he has issues with kneeling on people, and those people not being able to breath. He also struck that kid in the head with a flashlight twice.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank

Would she have left him had this incident never happened? Probably not.

I don't care. Sounds like his ass shouldn't have killed someone if he wanted to stay married, eh?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank

Folks are doing exactly what they did to Zimmerman. Destroy his life with insane levels of negative attention and putting him through a show trial, and then point at the fallout of that in his life as evidence he was always an awful person.

Yeah, Zimmerman is so wrecked that he travels the country signing bags of Skittles. How will he ever manage?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank

When something like this happens to someone, their life falls apart. One among many good reasons not to do this to someone.

I hope Chauvin's life falls apart even further, as I mentioned. Nothing I said changes.

Bob001 · 31st March 2021, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

When you say it's "the right thing to do", do you mean that it's morally the right thing to do?

Or do you mean that it's financially the right thing to do? Because that's almost certainly what's driving all of this: whether he's convicted or acquitted, Chauvin is likely to face 1) a fair amount of legal costs, and 2) (and much more financially significant) a civil suit from Floyd's family for many millions of dollars. If he's divorced from his wife, and if his wife has legal title to those assets, then those assets will be untouchable wrt demands for legal fees or court orders to pay any damages awarded to Floyd's family in a successful civil suit.

Numerous commentators have observed that the divorce is a way to protect the family assets. It's impossible to believe the wife didn't know what Chauvin was before she saw that video.

plague311 · 31st March 2021, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

When you say it's "the right thing to do", do you mean that it's morally the right thing to do?

Or do you mean that it's financially the right thing to do?

Yes.

For her, both of those are correct. It's her best chance at hanging on to any money. After all, she didn't commit this crime. She only committed tax fraud. Also, divorcing a murderer is always the right thing to do.

LondonJohn · 31st March 2021, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I don't want to jinx it, but I'd say we're doing a far better job. With any luck Chauvin will be attempting to kill himself in prison within the year.

Holy Moly. Maybe if (well, when) he's convicted, he should be sentenced to be hanged, drawn and quartered in the middle of George Floyd Square in Minneapolis, with the public buying tickets to the event and being able to purchase commemorative bags of stones to throw at him.

JoeMorgue · 31st March 2021, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

Holy Moly. Maybe if (well, when) he's convicted, he should be sentenced to be hanged, drawn and quartered in the middle of George Floyd Square in Minneapolis, with the public buying tickets to the event and being able to purchase commemorative bags of stones to throw at him.

Ah yes the inevitable "Oh now wait don't get too bloodthirsty to the racist murderer" stage of the discussion begins.

Yes because that's the problem that deserves your attention.

Why does this always after that a board's resident racist comes into the thread to get everyone worked up, we get one mother hen in here to take us to task.

Why did you stay quiet for Skeptic Tank's racism but you had to jump up and run in like someone put up the Bat Signal the second the response to him crossed a line?

plague311 · 31st March 2021, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

Holy Moly. Maybe if (well, when) he's convicted, he should be sentenced to be hanged, drawn and quartered in the middle of George Floyd Square in Minneapolis, with the public buying tickets to the event and being able to purchase commemorative bags of stones to throw at him.

I mean, if you can make that happen...

How is it any worse than what he did to Floyd? I'm not saying he should be killed, but if he dies in prison I certainly won't lose a fraction of the amount of sleep the people who witnessed this murder, and apparently a juror, have lost.

Bob001 · 31st March 2021, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank

.....
It's entirely possible that he simply thought "this restraint technique isn't harming him, he's ODing, where the hell are the EMTs?" and never intended any harm to Floyd, and is possibly convinced to this day that he played no significant role in Floyd's death. Again, he MAY BE 100% CORRECT IN THAT.
.....

Why do you keep insisting on this? The police themselves have said this isn't any technique they teach or condone. And why wouldn't a "restraint technique" be released after the subject is restrained?

And if the cops believed that he was having a drug reaction, they did nothing to help him, even when a city EMT tried to step in. The cops may not literally have intended to kill Floyd, but that is unquestionably the result of their conduct.

JoeMorgue · 31st March 2021, 11:56 AM

I'm wonder why Skeptic Tank thinks Chauvin let Floyd up at all and isn't still, to this stay, in that exact spot with his knee on the Floyd's at this point mostly decomposed body.

wasapi · 31st March 2021, 11:56 AM

I have been watching. They showed footage of the cops body-cam, and heard Floyd saying over and over that he couldn't breathe.

Simply, it makes me feel like crying.

Bob001 · 31st March 2021, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Is that the case? Whatever tort Chauvin committed occurred while they were married. Would divorce after the fact really shield these assets?

Probably. Creditors could only seize what he owns, not what he used to own. That would be different from trying to conceal assets after a suit is filed or a judgment is reached.

SuburbanTurkey · 31st March 2021, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

Holy Moly. Maybe if (well, when) he's convicted, he should be sentenced to be hanged, drawn and quartered in the middle of George Floyd Square in Minneapolis, with the public buying tickets to the event and being able to purchase commemorative bags of stones to throw at him.

You've chastened me. I don't want anything bad to happen to Chauvin.

We should have him on 24/7 suicide watch for the duration of his prison term to make sure nothing bad happens to him. Take his shoelaces and his bedsheets while he spends his time in solitary under 24hr observation with the lights on.

We can't be too careful.

LondonJohn · 31st March 2021, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

Yes.

For her, both of those are correct. It's her best chance at hanging on to any money. After all, she didn't commit this crime. She only committed tax fraud. Also, divorcing a murderer is always the right thing to do.

I would imagine that by far the primary motivation for these actions is protection of assets.

If she was divorcing him on moral grounds, he should (would) obviously have fought for a proper splitting of the assets. He then could (would) have transferred ownership of those assets to somebody like a family member or very close friend.

So I'd argue that the very fact that Chauvin has (apparently) willingly handed over his own share to his wife in the divorce...... tends to imply quite heavily that he's still in cahoots with his wife - and she with him, Unless, that is, she decides to welch on the deal and walk away with everything.

plague311 · 31st March 2021, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Bob001

Probably. Creditors could only seize what he owns, not what he used to own. That would be different from trying to conceal assets after a suit is filed or a judgment is reached.

I wonder if the divorce will be finalized or if it will be on hold. I would think that they wouldn't let his assets be forfeit or a divorce finalized until this is all over.

JoeMorgue · 31st March 2021, 12:02 PM

Chauvin getting divorced is really neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned.

LondonJohn · 31st March 2021, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

I mean, if you can make that happen...

How is it any worse than what he did to Floyd? I'm not saying he should be killed, but if he dies in prison I certainly won't lose a fraction of the amount of sleep the people who witnessed this murder, and apparently a juror, have lost.

It's great to see that good old-fashioned Biblical vengeance is still alive and well in the 21st Century.

Nessie · 31st March 2021, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank

They fulfilled their duty of care by restraining him so he couldn't harm himself or others, and then calling for a medical unit and also calling back to "step it up" and ask for the fastest medical unit response.

They failed, since he died and the post mortem evidences the death was due to the way he was restrained.

Quote:

It's a shame that he took a fatal amount of drugs

Where is the evidence of that?

Quote:

, lived a criminal lifestyle,

You dodged my earlier point that cops cannot assume someone is healthy and therefore fit to be restrained for a prolonged period.

Quote:

that a crowd distracted the officers from their job,

You dodged my point that arrests attract bystanders and it is not a distraction. Cops are perfectly capable of multi-tasking, especially when there are four of them.

Quote:

and that the medical unit arrived slowly.

What is the standard response time and how does it compare to this incident?

Quote:

Hard to argue that him dying is any great loss to society, though - based on what we know of his life and rap sheet.

Officer Chauvin being fired and potentially being imprisoned is a far greater loss for society. He was an actual contributing member of society who was acting in a capacity which increased order and safety, whereas Floyd had taken on a life pattern of increasing chaos and danger for others.

Would US society be improved by a police force that summarily executes all criminals?

gnome · 31st March 2021, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank

Hard to argue that him dying is any great loss to society, though - based on what we know of his life and rap sheet.

Officer Chauvin being fired and potentially being imprisoned is a far greater loss for society. He was an actual contributing member of society who was acting in a capacity which increased order and safety, whereas Floyd had taken on a life pattern of increasing chaos and danger for others.

Is that how justice is determined, by the relative human worth of the parties involved? No need to consider the specifics of the law, let's just figure out who's the officially better person and call it that way.

I'm still waiting to hear if you consider the hold "by the book" and what information you have contradictory to the statement that it was not.

plague311 · 31st March 2021, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

I would imagine that by far the primary motivation for these actions is protection of assets.

If she was divorcing him on moral grounds, he should (would) obviously have fought for a proper splitting of the assets. He then could (would) have transferred ownership of those assets to somebody like a family member or very close friend.

Again, that's just not the way it works. If it were every single person being sued or in legal trouble would do this exact thing. They would just stay any decision until this is all done.

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

So I'd argue that the very fact that Chauvin has (apparently) willingly handed over his own share to his wife in the divorce...... tends to imply quite heavily that he's still in cahoots with his wife - and she with him, Unless, that is, she decides to welch on the deal and walk away with everything.

The divorce, as far as I can tell, hasn't been finalized and she initiated the divorce the day after he got charged. She hasn't received anything.

JoeMorgue · 31st March 2021, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

It's great to see that good old-fashioned Biblical vengeance is still alive and well in the 21st Century.

I'd like an answer to why someone saying that Chauvin should be killed triggered this hissy fit from you but you stayed silent while Skeptic Tank repeatatly said Chauvin was correct to kill Floyd.

plague311 · 31st March 2021, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

It's great to see that good old-fashioned Biblical vengeance is still alive and well in the 21st Century.

You can save all this nonsense for someone else. I already said he shouldn't be killed. When you're ready to climb off your moral high horse, let me know. I can maybe grab you step stool or something.

LondonJohn · 31st March 2021, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Chauvin getting divorced is really neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned.

Well I suspect that to Floyd's family - given that nothing can bring him back, and given that it's extremely likely that Chauvin will be convicted - it may turn out to be rather more than "neither here nor there" wrt any civil suit.

Skeptic Tank · 31st March 2021, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by wasapi

I have been watching. They showed footage of the cops body-cam, and heard Floyd saying over and over that he couldn't breathe.

Simply, it makes me feel like crying.

At a point in the event where he had not had anything done to him yet, besides being cuffed and asked politely to please get in the back seat of the police vehicle, he's already blubbering, wailing, claiming he can't breathe, and saying he's dying, calling out for his mamma, etc.

These are not the actions of a dignified, adult male contributor to society.

These are the actions of a clownish, buffoonish, drug addled manchild who is trying absolutely everything he can to avoid facing consequences for his serial criminality. He did it the year before, too.

Sadly, for him, one of the actions he was prepared to take to avoid accountability, both in May 2019 and May 2020, was to swallow his drug stash to avoid being caught with it. It nearly killed him in 2019, but he had the sense to admit what he'd done that time.

It *did* kill him in 2020.

And society is somehow still trying to figure out how to adjust to getting by without George Floyd preying upon it.

plague311 · 31st March 2021, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

Well I suspect that to Floyd's family - given that nothing can bring him back, and given that it's extremely likely that Chauvin will be convicted - it may turn out to be rather more than "neither here nor there" wrt any civil suit.

The family has received $27mm in a settlement from the state.

plague311 · 31st March 2021, 12:08 PM

Holy ****, the video they're playing shows the witness on the stand say "just get up and get in the car" to Floyd and Floyd openly said, "I will". Then some more talk about he can't get up, etc.

SuburbanTurkey · 31st March 2021, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

Well I suspect that to Floyd's family - given that nothing can bring him back, and given that it's extremely likely that Chauvin will be convicted - it may turn out to be rather more than "neither here nor there" wrt any civil suit.

Deepest pockets remain the city of Minneapolis, which have already settled with the family for a substantial amount.

Suing Chauvin has probably more to do with justice than actual monetary damages. My hope that it won't really be necessary because he's facing a more significant criminal conviction, but I suppose it's fun to bounce the rubble.

Bob001 · 31st March 2021, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank

They fulfilled their duty of care by restraining him so he couldn't harm himself or others, and then calling for a medical unit and also calling back to "step it up" and ask for the fastest medical unit response.
.....

Even that is questionable. The EMT testified that it is standard practice for firefighter/EMTs to respond to a medical 911 call before an ambulance. She said her "house" was three blocks away, and other fire stations were close. She said if this was treated as a medical emergency, firefighters would have arrived in seconds. But no fire truck ever arrived.

Skeptic Tank · 31st March 2021, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Bob001

Even that is questionable. The EMT testified that it is standard practice for firefighter/EMTs to respond to a medical 911 call before an ambulance. She said her "house" was three blocks away, and other fire stations were close. She said if this was treated as a medical emergency, firefighters would have arrived in seconds. But no fire truck ever arrived.

She also testified that it is dispatch who determines what sort of medical team to send (EMT, firefighters, both, etc.) - not the officers who call dispatch.

Vixen · 31st March 2021, 12:13 PM

Harrowing. Floyd can be heard saying over and over, 'I can't breathe', and 'Mama, Mama'.

The witness burst into tears.

JoeMorgue · 31st March 2021, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank

These are not the actions of a dignified, adult male contributor to society.

So ******* what?

1. Not being a dignified, adult, male contributor to society isn't a crime.
2. Random beat cops wouldn't be the ones making that call even if #1 where true.
3. Murderers are even less contributing members of society.
4. Just learn to spell "I like Eugenics" it will make your racists screeds take up less space.

Bob001 · 31st March 2021, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank

At a point in the event where he had not had anything done to him yet, besides being cuffed and asked politely to please get in the back seat of the police vehicle, he's already blubbering, wailing, claiming he can't breathe, and saying he's dying, calling out for his mamma, etc.
....

He explicitly said he had claustrophobia, and the cops believed he was on drugs. That's more indication that they were dealing with a medical emergency, not a resisting criminal. It is beyond disgusting that you think killing him is okay.

JoeMorgue · 31st March 2021, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Bob001

He explicitly said he had claustrophobia, and the cops believed he was on drugs. That's more indication that they were dealing with a medical emergency, not a resisting criminal. It is beyond disgusting that you think killing him is okay.

But the people being being too mean to Chauvin are the ones wanting "Biblical Justice" and deserve to be hen pecked about it, let us not forget.

plague311 · 31st March 2021, 12:15 PM

Apparently Chauvin was so concerned with the crowd and their actions, that he stuck around afterwards for a period of time interacting with people from said crowd. Tough sell on the whole "he was scurred" crowd.

31st March 2021, 11:40 AM	#281
Skeptic Tank Trigger Warning Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 3,021	Originally Posted by plague311 He knew EXACTLY what would happen since he did it to another male almost exactly the same physical make up as Floyd. So, if he "knew exactly what would happen" then I take it that individual died also? Oh, no. I just looked it up. 17 minutes in that case, and the person didn't die. In other words, Chauvin expected Floyd to survive what he was doing to him. Originally Posted by plague311 Well that and his wife is leaving him because he's a piece of **** that murdered someone, but your story is cool too. Would she have left him had this incident never happened? Probably not. Folks are doing exactly what they did to Zimmerman. Destroy his life with insane levels of negative attention and putting him through a show trial, and then point at the fallout of that in his life as evidence he was always an awful person. When something like this happens to someone, their life falls apart. One among many good reasons not to do this to someone.
	__________________ I lost an avatar bet with Meadmaker.

31st March 2021, 11:40 AM	#282
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 13,002	Originally Posted by plague311 No, that's not the way it works. If I steal a $20 bill and it turns out to be fake, I still committed a crime by stealing it. My ignorance doesn't excuse the crime. .... One commentator said it would only be a misdemeanor in Minnesota. The cops could have handed Floyd a citation and sent him on his way. They didn't even have to arrest him. And there is only the word of a teenage clerk that Floyd handed him a counterfeit bill. The cops had no way to know whether it really was, or where it came from. This is a questionable arrest, let alone killing.
	Last edited by Bob001; 31st March 2021 at 11:50 AM.

31st March 2021, 11:42 AM	#283
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,529	Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank Folks are doing exactly what they did to Zimmerman. I don't want to jinx it, but I'd say we're doing a far better job. With any luck Chauvin will be attempting to kill himself in prison within the year.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

31st March 2021, 11:43 AM	#284
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,746	Originally Posted by plague311 No, that's not the way it works. If I steal a $20 bill and it turns out to be fake, I still committed a crime by stealing it. My ignorance doesn't excuse the crime. Also, he was told it was fake multiple times and did nothing to rectify the situation. He didn't deserve to die, but please don't excuse the criminal actions Floyd did make. But was that before or after it was accepted? But yes clearly refusing takebacksies is a crime. Like buying something that had a miss labeled price.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

31st March 2021, 11:44 AM	#285
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 31,524
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

31st March 2021, 11:45 AM	#286
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 17,034	Originally Posted by plague311 His wife is actually divorcing him, changing her name, and taking the titles to both homes over the whole thing. Which is the right thing to do. When you say it's "the right thing to do", do you mean that it's morally the right thing to do? Or do you mean that it's financially the right thing to do? Because that's almost certainly what's driving all of this: whether he's convicted or acquitted, Chauvin is likely to face 1) a fair amount of legal costs, and 2) (and much more financially significant) a civil suit from Floyd's family for many millions of dollars. If he's divorced from his wife, and if his wife has legal title to those assets, then those assets will be untouchable wrt demands for legal fees or court orders to pay any damages awarded to Floyd's family in a successful civil suit.

31st March 2021, 11:46 AM	#287
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 13,002	Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank .... I cannot imagine what sort of mindset leads someone to be ravenously excited to see a police officer, someone who voluntarily went out and dealt with the most dangerous, roughest elements of our society - for the sake of all of our ability to conduct safe lives --- end up in prison, and not just in prison, but in prison for as long as possible, suffering as much as possible. .... We endow cops with extraordinary power -- literally the power of life and death -- and we require them to use it responsibly. When they don't, we need to hold them accountable. A badge isn't a blank check. And police work isn't even among the top 10 most dangerous jobs. If it's okay for cops to kill people when they get scared, maybe taxi drivers, truck drivers and 7-11 clerks should get the same privilege.

31st March 2021, 11:46 AM	#288
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,529	Originally Posted by LondonJohn When you say it's "the right thing to do", do you mean that it's morally the right thing to do? Or do you mean that it's financially the right thing to do? Because that's almost certainly what's driving all of this: whether he's convicted or acquitted, Chauvin is likely to face 1) a fair amount of legal costs, and 2) (and much more financially significant) a civil suit from Floyd's family for many millions of dollars. If he's divorced from his wife, and if his wife has legal title to those assets, then those assets will be untouchable wrt demands for legal fees or court orders to pay any damages awarded to Floyd's family in a successful civil suit. Is that the case? Whatever tort Chauvin committed occurred while they were married. Would divorce after the fact really shield these assets?
	__________________ Gobble gobble

31st March 2021, 11:47 AM	#289
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 8,801	Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank So, if he "knew exactly what would happen" then I take it that individual died also? Oh, no. I just looked it up. 17 minutes in that case, and the person didn't die. In other words, Chauvin expected Floyd to survive what he was doing to him. No kidding? Quote: Prosecutors say the body camera footage showed Chauvin was kneeling on the 14-year-old boy’s back for a total of 17 minutes despite repeated requests by the teenager to turn him on his back because he couldn’t breathe. Did you know that the neck is not the back? Glad I could help. The point of the link was to show he has issues with kneeling on people, and those people not being able to breath. He also struck that kid in the head with a flashlight twice. Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank Would she have left him had this incident never happened? Probably not. I don't care. Sounds like his ass shouldn't have killed someone if he wanted to stay married, eh? Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank Folks are doing exactly what they did to Zimmerman. Destroy his life with insane levels of negative attention and putting him through a show trial, and then point at the fallout of that in his life as evidence he was always an awful person. Yeah, Zimmerman is so wrecked that he travels the country signing bags of Skittles. How will he ever manage? Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank When something like this happens to someone, their life falls apart. One among many good reasons not to do this to someone. I hope Chauvin's life falls apart even further, as I mentioned. Nothing I said changes.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss Last edited by plague311; 31st March 2021 at 11:52 AM.

31st March 2021, 11:48 AM	#290
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 13,002	Originally Posted by LondonJohn When you say it's "the right thing to do", do you mean that it's morally the right thing to do? Or do you mean that it's financially the right thing to do? Because that's almost certainly what's driving all of this: whether he's convicted or acquitted, Chauvin is likely to face 1) a fair amount of legal costs, and 2) (and much more financially significant) a civil suit from Floyd's family for many millions of dollars. If he's divorced from his wife, and if his wife has legal title to those assets, then those assets will be untouchable wrt demands for legal fees or court orders to pay any damages awarded to Floyd's family in a successful civil suit. Numerous commentators have observed that the divorce is a way to protect the family assets. It's impossible to believe the wife didn't know what Chauvin was before she saw that video.

31st March 2021, 11:49 AM	#291
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 8,801	Originally Posted by LondonJohn When you say it's "the right thing to do", do you mean that it's morally the right thing to do? Or do you mean that it's financially the right thing to do? Yes. For her, both of those are correct. It's her best chance at hanging on to any money. After all, she didn't commit this crime. She only committed tax fraud. Also, divorcing a murderer is always the right thing to do.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

31st March 2021, 11:52 AM	#292
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 17,034	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey I don't want to jinx it, but I'd say we're doing a far better job. With any luck Chauvin will be attempting to kill himself in prison within the year. Holy Moly. Maybe if (well, when) he's convicted, he should be sentenced to be hanged, drawn and quartered in the middle of George Floyd Square in Minneapolis, with the public buying tickets to the event and being able to purchase commemorative bags of stones to throw at him.

31st March 2021, 11:54 AM	#293
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 31,524	Originally Posted by LondonJohn Holy Moly. Maybe if (well, when) he's convicted, he should be sentenced to be hanged, drawn and quartered in the middle of George Floyd Square in Minneapolis, with the public buying tickets to the event and being able to purchase commemorative bags of stones to throw at him. Ah yes the inevitable "Oh now wait don't get too bloodthirsty to the racist murderer" stage of the discussion begins. Yes because that's the problem that deserves your attention. Why does this always after that a board's resident racist comes into the thread to get everyone worked up, we get one mother hen in here to take us to task. Why did you stay quiet for Skeptic Tank's racism but you had to jump up and run in like someone put up the Bat Signal the second the response to him crossed a line?
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." Last edited by JoeMorgue; 31st March 2021 at 11:55 AM.

31st March 2021, 11:54 AM	#294
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 8,801	Originally Posted by LondonJohn Holy Moly. Maybe if (well, when) he's convicted, he should be sentenced to be hanged, drawn and quartered in the middle of George Floyd Square in Minneapolis, with the public buying tickets to the event and being able to purchase commemorative bags of stones to throw at him. I mean, if you can make that happen... How is it any worse than what he did to Floyd? I'm not saying he should be killed, but if he dies in prison I certainly won't lose a fraction of the amount of sleep the people who witnessed this murder, and apparently a juror, have lost.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

31st March 2021, 11:55 AM	#295
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 13,002	Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank ..... It's entirely possible that he simply thought "this restraint technique isn't harming him, he's ODing, where the hell are the EMTs?" and never intended any harm to Floyd, and is possibly convinced to this day that he played no significant role in Floyd's death. Again, he MAY BE 100% CORRECT IN THAT. ..... Why do you keep insisting on this? The police themselves have said this isn't any technique they teach or condone. And why wouldn't a "restraint technique" be released after the subject is restrained? And if the cops believed that he was having a drug reaction, they did nothing to help him, even when a city EMT tried to step in. The cops may not literally have intended to kill Floyd, but that is unquestionably the result of their conduct.

31st March 2021, 11:56 AM	#296
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 31,524	I'm wonder why Skeptic Tank thinks Chauvin let Floyd up at all and isn't still, to this stay, in that exact spot with his knee on the Floyd's at this point mostly decomposed body.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

31st March 2021, 11:56 AM	#297
wasapi Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 13,416	I have been watching. They showed footage of the cops body-cam, and heard Floyd saying over and over that he couldn't breathe. Simply, it makes me feel like crying.
	__________________ Julia

31st March 2021, 11:58 AM	#298
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 13,002	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Is that the case? Whatever tort Chauvin committed occurred while they were married. Would divorce after the fact really shield these assets? Probably. Creditors could only seize what he owns, not what he used to own. That would be different from trying to conceal assets after a suit is filed or a judgment is reached.

31st March 2021, 11:59 AM	#299
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,529	Originally Posted by LondonJohn Holy Moly. Maybe if (well, when) he's convicted, he should be sentenced to be hanged, drawn and quartered in the middle of George Floyd Square in Minneapolis, with the public buying tickets to the event and being able to purchase commemorative bags of stones to throw at him. You've chastened me. I don't want anything bad to happen to Chauvin. We should have him on 24/7 suicide watch for the duration of his prison term to make sure nothing bad happens to him. Take his shoelaces and his bedsheets while he spends his time in solitary under 24hr observation with the lights on. We can't be too careful.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

31st March 2021, 12:00 PM	#300
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 17,034	Originally Posted by plague311 Yes. For her, both of those are correct. It's her best chance at hanging on to any money. After all, she didn't commit this crime. She only committed tax fraud. Also, divorcing a murderer is always the right thing to do. I would imagine that by far the primary motivation for these actions is protection of assets. If she was divorcing him on moral grounds, he should (would) obviously have fought for a proper splitting of the assets. He then could (would) have transferred ownership of those assets to somebody like a family member or very close friend. So I'd argue that the very fact that Chauvin has (apparently) willingly handed over his own share to his wife in the divorce...... tends to imply quite heavily that he's still in cahoots with his wife - and she with him, Unless, that is, she decides to welch on the deal and walk away with everything.

31st March 2021, 12:01 PM	#301
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 8,801	Originally Posted by Bob001 Probably. Creditors could only seize what he owns, not what he used to own. That would be different from trying to conceal assets after a suit is filed or a judgment is reached. I wonder if the divorce will be finalized or if it will be on hold. I would think that they wouldn't let his assets be forfeit or a divorce finalized until this is all over.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

31st March 2021, 12:02 PM	#302
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 31,524	Chauvin getting divorced is really neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

31st March 2021, 12:02 PM	#303
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 17,034	Originally Posted by plague311 I mean, if you can make that happen... How is it any worse than what he did to Floyd? I'm not saying he should be killed, but if he dies in prison I certainly won't lose a fraction of the amount of sleep the people who witnessed this murder, and apparently a juror, have lost. It's great to see that good old-fashioned Biblical vengeance is still alive and well in the 21st Century.

31st March 2021, 12:03 PM	#304
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 13,114	Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank They fulfilled their duty of care by restraining him so he couldn't harm himself or others, and then calling for a medical unit and also calling back to "step it up" and ask for the fastest medical unit response. They failed, since he died and the post mortem evidences the death was due to the way he was restrained. Quote: It's a shame that he took a fatal amount of drugs Where is the evidence of that? Quote: , lived a criminal lifestyle, You dodged my earlier point that cops cannot assume someone is healthy and therefore fit to be restrained for a prolonged period. Quote: that a crowd distracted the officers from their job, You dodged my point that arrests attract bystanders and it is not a distraction. Cops are perfectly capable of multi-tasking, especially when there are four of them. Quote: and that the medical unit arrived slowly. What is the standard response time and how does it compare to this incident? Quote: Hard to argue that him dying is any great loss to society, though - based on what we know of his life and rap sheet. Officer Chauvin being fired and potentially being imprisoned is a far greater loss for society. He was an actual contributing member of society who was acting in a capacity which increased order and safety, whereas Floyd had taken on a life pattern of increasing chaos and danger for others. Would US society be improved by a police force that summarily executes all criminals?
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

31st March 2021, 12:03 PM	#305
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 11,263	Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank Hard to argue that him dying is any great loss to society, though - based on what we know of his life and rap sheet. Officer Chauvin being fired and potentially being imprisoned is a far greater loss for society. He was an actual contributing member of society who was acting in a capacity which increased order and safety, whereas Floyd had taken on a life pattern of increasing chaos and danger for others. Is that how justice is determined, by the relative human worth of the parties involved? No need to consider the specifics of the law, let's just figure out who's the officially better person and call it that way. I'm still waiting to hear if you consider the hold "by the book" and what information you have contradictory to the statement that it was not.
	__________________

31st March 2021, 12:03 PM	#306
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 8,801	Originally Posted by LondonJohn I would imagine that by far the primary motivation for these actions is protection of assets. If she was divorcing him on moral grounds, he should (would) obviously have fought for a proper splitting of the assets. He then could (would) have transferred ownership of those assets to somebody like a family member or very close friend. Again, that's just not the way it works. If it were every single person being sued or in legal trouble would do this exact thing. They would just stay any decision until this is all done. Originally Posted by LondonJohn So I'd argue that the very fact that Chauvin has (apparently) willingly handed over his own share to his wife in the divorce...... tends to imply quite heavily that he's still in cahoots with his wife - and she with him, Unless, that is, she decides to welch on the deal and walk away with everything. The divorce, as far as I can tell, hasn't been finalized and she initiated the divorce the day after he got charged. She hasn't received anything.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

31st March 2021, 12:04 PM	#307
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 31,524	Originally Posted by LondonJohn It's great to see that good old-fashioned Biblical vengeance is still alive and well in the 21st Century. I'd like an answer to why someone saying that Chauvin should be killed triggered this hissy fit from you but you stayed silent while Skeptic Tank repeatatly said Chauvin was correct to kill Floyd.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

31st March 2021, 12:05 PM	#308
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 8,801	Originally Posted by LondonJohn It's great to see that good old-fashioned Biblical vengeance is still alive and well in the 21st Century. You can save all this nonsense for someone else. I already said he shouldn't be killed. When you're ready to climb off your moral high horse, let me know. I can maybe grab you step stool or something.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

31st March 2021, 12:06 PM	#309
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 17,034	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Chauvin getting divorced is really neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned. Well I suspect that to Floyd's family - given that nothing can bring him back, and given that it's extremely likely that Chauvin will be convicted - it may turn out to be rather more than "neither here nor there" wrt any civil suit.

31st March 2021, 12:06 PM	#310
Skeptic Tank Trigger Warning Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 3,021	Originally Posted by wasapi I have been watching. They showed footage of the cops body-cam, and heard Floyd saying over and over that he couldn't breathe. Simply, it makes me feel like crying. At a point in the event where he had not had anything done to him yet, besides being cuffed and asked politely to please get in the back seat of the police vehicle, he's already blubbering, wailing, claiming he can't breathe, and saying he's dying, calling out for his mamma, etc. These are not the actions of a dignified, adult male contributor to society. These are the actions of a clownish, buffoonish, drug addled manchild who is trying absolutely everything he can to avoid facing consequences for his serial criminality. He did it the year before, too. Sadly, for him, one of the actions he was prepared to take to avoid accountability, both in May 2019 and May 2020, was to swallow his drug stash to avoid being caught with it. It nearly killed him in 2019, but he had the sense to admit what he'd done that time. It did kill him in 2020. And society is somehow still trying to figure out how to adjust to getting by without George Floyd preying upon it.
	__________________ I lost an avatar bet with Meadmaker.

31st March 2021, 12:07 PM	#311
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 8,801	Originally Posted by LondonJohn Well I suspect that to Floyd's family - given that nothing can bring him back, and given that it's extremely likely that Chauvin will be convicted - it may turn out to be rather more than "neither here nor there" wrt any civil suit. The family has received $27mm in a settlement from the state.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

31st March 2021, 12:08 PM	#312
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 8,801	Holy ****, the video they're playing shows the witness on the stand say "just get up and get in the car" to Floyd and Floyd openly said, "I will". Then some more talk about he can't get up, etc.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

31st March 2021, 12:08 PM	#313
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,529	Originally Posted by LondonJohn Well I suspect that to Floyd's family - given that nothing can bring him back, and given that it's extremely likely that Chauvin will be convicted - it may turn out to be rather more than "neither here nor there" wrt any civil suit. Deepest pockets remain the city of Minneapolis, which have already settled with the family for a substantial amount. Suing Chauvin has probably more to do with justice than actual monetary damages. My hope that it won't really be necessary because he's facing a more significant criminal conviction, but I suppose it's fun to bounce the rubble.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

31st March 2021, 12:09 PM	#314
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 13,002	Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank They fulfilled their duty of care by restraining him so he couldn't harm himself or others, and then calling for a medical unit and also calling back to "step it up" and ask for the fastest medical unit response. ..... Even that is questionable. The EMT testified that it is standard practice for firefighter/EMTs to respond to a medical 911 call before an ambulance. She said her "house" was three blocks away, and other fire stations were close. She said if this was treated as a medical emergency, firefighters would have arrived in seconds. But no fire truck ever arrived.

31st March 2021, 12:12 PM	#315
Skeptic Tank Trigger Warning Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 3,021	Originally Posted by Bob001 Even that is questionable. The EMT testified that it is standard practice for firefighter/EMTs to respond to a medical 911 call before an ambulance. She said her "house" was three blocks away, and other fire stations were close. She said if this was treated as a medical emergency, firefighters would have arrived in seconds. But no fire truck ever arrived. She also testified that it is dispatch who determines what sort of medical team to send (EMT, firefighters, both, etc.) - not the officers who call dispatch.
	__________________ I lost an avatar bet with Meadmaker.