illegal to give food or water to waiting voters in Georgia

[Captain_Swoop]

a queue hours long could stretch quite a way.
Would any stores nearby be prohibited from selling food a drinks if the queue was close by?

[Minoosh]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

a queue hours long could stretch quite a way.
Would any stores nearby be prohibited from selling food a drinks if the queue was close by?

I don't know if there's any prohibition on selling stuff.

[PhantomWolf]

Originally Posted by bruto

That would be an interesting bit of mass civil disobedience, but I doubt it, because the law makes it a felony, which means if you're convicted you probably lose the right to vote forever. They've rigged the risk disproportionately, on purpose I imagine.

From what I have heard being reported, this is not true, it will be a misdemeanor, not that this is any better really, but you won't lose your rights to vote because you gave someone water.

[Kestrel]

Originally Posted by Minoosh

I'm hoping that Atlanta residents and others are feeling empowered and will be motivated to challenge restrictions as they arise - and to absolutely know their rights otherwise. After just looking into Texas's one-drop-off-box-per-county limit, which is nuts, I find that people did also have the option to vote early at several locations and people have 45 days to get to the drop-off box.

This case was upheld by the Texas Supreme Court. It still seems designed to suppress voting and therefore IMO is unconstitutional. But someone just hearing that in Texas might get discouraged and might not know the other options.

My conservative state somehow has a lovely mail-in vote law. I don't know how that happened.

The goal of the one drop box limit per county is obvious. Make voting less convenient in high population counties that tend to vote for Democrats. One box at the county courthouse isn’t likely to have a long line in rural Texas. One box for a city like Houston or Dallas is another matter.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

From what I have heard being reported, this is not true, it will be a misdemeanor, not that this is any better really, but you won't lose your rights to vote because you gave someone water.

I don't have reference handy, but the source I recall reading made the point of its being a felony. It seemed ridiculous at the time, and maybe it was misreported. I'll see if I can look into it again.

I can't find it right away, but in answer to other questions, the handing out water and food ban includes the usual polling place ban, plus anyhthing within 25 feet of voters lining up for a polling place, which means that if the line is a mile long the ban is a mile long.

e.t.a. ok I did find a reference, and it now says the crime is unspecified, but expected to be a misdemeanor. It's possible either that I read an inaccurate report or that there was a revision, probably the latter.

[PhantomWolf]

Originally Posted by bruto

I don't have reference handy, but the source I recall reading made the point of its being a felony. It seemed ridiculous at the time, and maybe it was misreported. I'll see if I can look into it again.

I can't find it right away, but in answer to other questions, the handing out water and food ban includes the usual polling place ban, plus anyhthing within 25 feet of voters lining up for a polling place, which means that if the line is a mile long the ban is a mile long.

e.t.a. ok I did find a reference, and it now says the crime is unspecified, but expected to be a misdemeanor. It's possible either that I read an inaccurate report or that there was a revision, probably the latter.

I wonder if that included commercial premises that the line snakes past... Of course, if you can sell food and water within that 25 feet, then bottles of water, 1c each!

[mgidm86]

Maybe someone with a cart full of drinks who also is there to vote can do the deed. Just get in line with the cart and hand out water as they wait.

"Oh no, these 193 bottles of water are all mine, officer. Want one?"

They could keep letting people in front of them so they don't reach the front of the line until late.

[Mumbles]

Originally Posted by Kestrel

The goal of the one drop box limit per county is obvious. Make voting less convenient in high population counties that tend to vote for Democrats. One box at the county courthouse isn’t likely to have a long line in rural Texas. One box for a city like Houston or Dallas is another matter.

Well, the main problem with these antics is that they infuriate the other side - black people in particular will not only be pushed to vote even more, they'll be absolutely enraged by the GOP when they do.

The real problems are outright blocking access. "What, we put in a long process before we took over <insert mostly minority county> election board, they just refused to meet all these massive changes that we made and didn't fund. See, there's no racial problem at all!" Same way Snyder took over both Detroit (which continues to fall apart) and Flint (where they poisoned the drinking water).

"What, it's easy to get ID, just go to your local DMV location with your birth certificate. By the way, we know that many older black people were born at home because hospitals refused to deliver black babies back then so they have no birth certificates, and coincidentally we've consolidated DMV locations so there are now none in any majority-black counties or towns...but we needed to save costs what's the problem guys?" (We saw this in both Texas and Mississippi).

The mail-in voting one is interesting, in that the GOP absolutely loved it right up until 2020, when younger and black people used it to reduce COVID-19 exposure while still voting. At this point, this was "an alarming increase", and a "potential for fraud according to a 2005 report by Jimmy Carter", never mind that Carter himself has said "That was 16 years ago, it's much better now that strong anti-fraud processes are in place and that wonderful and handsome guy Mumbles is providing you a link for easy use in case someone ever gives you that excuse".

...okay, maybe I'm not quoting him verbatim, but the link itself is good.

Finally, Georgia law previously only outlawed giving food or drinks *in exchange* for a vote, not giving refreshments or temporary seats to people who had already waited in line to vote for hours, without asking for or advocating any particular candidate or policy position. So in other words a water bottle with a big photo of Joe Biden on front would be illegal (I assume anything with Toupee Fiasco's face on it is some sort of hazardous material, so that's a separate crime), but a bottle of "Poland Spring" from some third party that's explicitly nonpartisan is another matter.

Kemp claims that the previous law was being violated constantly. Guess how many actual complaints he could offer to reporters?

[bruto]

I imagine there are multiple ways one could get around it. Self service water fountains are exempt (my guess being because there won't be any), but what about self service tables of water in cups or bottles? Put a big water jug and paper cups on a table, and walk away?

Or, of course, especially if it is a misdemeanor and not a felony, have a big crowd of people giving out water. Get a large enough number of non-violent water-givers lined up, enough to make arrest impractical. Of course one must be cautious since we don't want a police riot, tear gas and shooting. Press would be a good idea.

But I hope what happens is that the law is just plain overturned, and its perpetrators shamed and dragged through the mud for their obnoxious attempt to overthrow democracy.

Wishful thinking all.

[TheGoldcountry]

Originally Posted by Mumbles

Kemp claims that the previous law was being violated constantly. Guess how many actual complaints he could offer to reporters?

So, let me get this straight: the justification for a new, more restrictive and unnecessary, if not unconstitutional, law is that an older, more sensible law wasn't being enforced?

Don't we hear from Republicans all the time that we don't need new gun laws because we just need to enforce the current ones?

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by mgidm86

Maybe someone with a cart full of drinks who also is there to vote can do the deed. Just get in line with the cart and hand out water as they wait.

"Oh no, these 193 bottles of water are all mine, officer. Want one?"

They could keep letting people in front of them so they don't reach the front of the line until late.

Sell to them.... penny a bottle!

[Shadowdweller]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I'm sorry, I missed just what is my grievous error.

That would be the bit I quoted - about the importance of Sunday voting.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

And yet this is a problem in literally NO other civilized country in the world; the Aussies have a sausage sizzle, we have polling day parties.

In the USA, even in mid-sized towns, you have situations where people have to queue for over TEN HOURS to vote.... TEN HOURS!!!!. Any electoral system where this is happening is severely broken. Are you really suggesting that people should come to the polls ready equipped with three meals, and if they do not, they must go without food or water all day, and that anyone else who shares with them is committing a criminal offense? This is the price you would have people pay to participate in their democracy?

But that shows that the voter suppression is working.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by EHocking

It should be noted that the polling place sausage sizzles are not sponsored by any political party.
They are run by/for charities.
This is not what is being discussed here. The subject is political parties handing out food/water being seen as incentives to vote and potentially incentives to vote for their party.

Or charities or really anyone. It isn't like it was targeting only political parties. But really what is the point in making people wait for 6 hours in line if they provide them with food and drink? Completely undermines the effectiveness of those waiting times.

[JoeMorgue]

Again the Republicans aren't really all that worried about how obvious the ulterior motive it here is. They know it. Them doing it is an intentional flex.

So pointing out that's what they are doing is a waste of time. We aren't going to trap the Republicans in "admitting their evil." They claim it with pride.

Going "Hey whaddaminute! You're just trying to shake me down for protection money!" when the Mobster waltzes in with his two associates and tells you what a nice little corner store you have here and what a shame it would be if something bad where to happen to it isn't going to make him stop threatening you.

[Darat]

I agree, the only reason they don’t pass a law that simply says “Black, Hispanic and immigrants can’t vote” is that they know the courts would rule it unconstitutional.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

The Republicans in Georgia have passed bill HB 531 making it illegal to give anyone food or water as they wait in line to vote.

Georgia’s Republican Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger objected to the law because, he said, his office had already ruled that pizza at the polls is a crime. Before the Georgia US Senate run-offs, Raffensperger threatened groups, stating that:

“offering food, drinks, or other items of value to voters waiting in line or those who have already voted is forbidden under Georgia law (OCGA § 21-2-570).”

Anyone handing pizza to a voter, according to Raffensperger, “shall be guilty of a felony.”

The real tragedy here is that, in America, you wait in line to vote long enough that you might require food and water.

For pete's sake, people, get democracy right!

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Lurch

Looking from the outside, in a country where wait times at the polls are measured in minutes and not hours... That there exist such excessive wait times that food and drink might be necessary in the first place bespeaks of a rather dysfunctional system. To have allowed it to come to such a pass is already a sad indictment. And now to add insult to injury like this is despicable. A set up to invite the commission of this new 'crime.' It's like watching a same-but-different, American flavor of the debasement of politics that precedes a descent to madness.

A fellow Canuck with similar observations.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall at those GOP meetings where they craft these ideas. I wonder if they twirl their mustaches and cackle like Palpatine while doing it.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

This seems to be limited to certain States and sometimes to specific locations in those states.. I've been voting for more than 40 years mostly in the State of Washington I think the longest time I had to wait during that period was maybe 60 to 90 minutes.

I've never had to wait more than 10-15.

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Repugnicans don't hate their people having freedoms, they they only hate "others" having freedoms. Repugnicans would be really happy if only Repugnicans were allowed to vote - and I'm quite sure that they would pass laws to make it so if they thought they could get away with it.

We might be only one Reischstag fire away from that...

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Belz...

The real tragedy here is that, in America, you wait in line to vote long enough that you might require food and water.

For pete's sake, people, get democracy right!

Apparently only if you live in certain districts

In others there are plenty of polling stations and no lines.

I shall leave the reader to imagine what the key difference between the districts might be.

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by Belz...

I'd like to be a fly on the wall at those GOP meetings where they craft these ideas. I wonder if they twirl their mustaches and cackle like Palpatine while doing it.

At best, at absolute best and this is probably giving them far too much credit, what they have is an absolutely pessimistic view of humanity, the vague idea that everyone is going to rise up and take what they perceive as "theirs" the moment society (which consists of them) allow it, so all their evil and hatred is, in their minds, preemptive.

It's why they can never actually point at any real instances of the problems they are saving us from happening, because in their world they haven't happened yet but absolutely will the second they let their guard down.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Shadowdweller

That would be the bit I quoted - about the importance of Sunday voting.

Round and round the mulberry bush...

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I don't think the Sunday voting is a hill worth dying on (black churches will find another way to carry out souls for the polls). But the section where election officials could just decide the vote was rather ming-boggling.

Originally Posted by Shadowdweller

And that is a grievous error on your part. Voting in Georgia, to the best of my understanding, is already restricted to normal business hours*. Meaning that, if you happen to be a working class individual who is employed during those hours, week-ends are the only time you would be able to physically show up at the polls. And the bill just gave officials the power to cut available week-end hours in half.

I said two things there:

Souls to the polls could adapt.
and
giving power to state legislators to cancel the will of the voters by simply saying they didn't accept the voting outcome was a horrid piece of legislation.

Which of those 2 things is an error? And please explain why, thank you.

Are you claiming souls to the polls didn't happen in Georgia? So it's "a grievous error'?

Please explain because it isn't clear at all what you mean.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Or charities or really anyone. It isn't like it was targeting only political parties. But really what is the point in making people wait for 6 hours in line if they provide them with food and drink? Completely undermines the effectiveness of those waiting times.

Here's an idea: campaign for everyone to bring food and drink, enough to share in line with the people near you who didn't.

[Foster Zygote]

Well, that's a relief!

https://www.theonion.com/georgia-ame...-be-1846576649

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Here's an idea: campaign for everyone to bring food and drink, enough to share in line with the people near you who didn't.

I wonder, though, if sharing in line would be considered illegal giving, and get both parties thrown out of the line. It shouldn't of course, but "shouldn't" doesn't mean "wouldn't," and it would not surprise me much if that nebulous "gotcha" is part of the plan. Remember the kind of people we're dealing with here, and the value of action even if it fails in the end. Get a person out of the line, and the job is done. I think if I were a voter in a Georgia line, I'd not only bring my own food and water, but make sure I have a receipt for it.

[Dani]

I read somewhere that the bill would limit access to vote for black and hispanic people.

Pardon my ignorance (I'm from Spain). Can anyone explain why this would be so?

[Dani]

Originally Posted by The Don

Apparently only if you live in certain districts

In others there are plenty of polling stations and no lines.

I shall leave the reader to imagine what the key difference between the districts might be.

I think I'm getting a glimpse of an answer to my question

Is this really the case?

Because I find the idea outrageous and I struggle to believe that this happens in your country.

[Norman Alexander]

Originally Posted by Dani

I think I'm getting a glimpse of an answer to my question

Is this really the case?

Because I find the idea outrageous and I struggle to believe that this happens in your country.

So do many non-Americans. And so do many Americans as well. The only people who find this positive are those trying to enact the legislation for their own racist purposes and political careers. The people to whom it selectively applies simply shrug, and say "Really? Not again!".

[PhantomWolf]

Originally Posted by Dani

I read somewhere that the bill would limit access to vote for black and hispanic people.

Pardon my ignorance (I'm from Spain). Can anyone explain why this would be so?

The short version. The bill eliminates most of the ways that black and Hispanic people use to vote early, i.e. Sunday Voting, drop boxes, and the like.

It also forced the use of ID which they then make harder to obtain by limiting the number of places to get them in minority heavy areas and the hours which those places are open. It also makes it harder for people who don't have street adresses to obtain an ID to vote.

All this forces more people to have to take time off work on the actual voting day (which is a Tuesday) so that they can vote. This is then compounded by the restricting of polling places in minority heavy neighbourhoods so that they end up being overwhelmed and having lines that can be hours in wait times. Under this law, those people could be waiting up more than seven hours in line without access to water or food, so it is a disincentive to actually take the day off work and go and stand in a line for hours and hours and hours and hours while getting hungry and dehydrated.

So yeah, basically it makes ID that is restricted to minorities required, limits the times and places for them to vote, and then disincentives them to leave work and line up to actually vote.

It does a bunch of other bad stuff such as giving the GOP Legislature full control over how to count the votes for their own election as well, but those aren't actually racist, they are just attempting to create one-party control.

[PhantomWolf]

Originally Posted by Dani

I think I'm getting a glimpse of an answer to my question

Is this really the case?

Because I find the idea outrageous and I struggle to believe that this happens in your country.

It happens because Republicans understand that if minorities are allowed to vote freely and in number, then they will never win elections again, and since they can't allow the Democrats to win, they have to do everything in their power to prevent that from happening.

[Mumbles]

Originally Posted by Dani

I think I'm getting a glimpse of an answer to my question

Is this really the case?

Because I find the idea outrageous and I struggle to believe that this happens in your country.

Why would it be difficult to believe, given that we continue to find internal documents stating outright "Here's how to dilute the power of black voting districts"?, and that many entire states were completely unable to go a single decade without attempting to do such things leading to 2013?

Here's a basic writeup from out of Georgia, from last year. Among other issues,

• Voting locations often decreased, even as voting population increased;
• Waiting times in one county averaged 6 minutes at majority white areas, versus 51 minutes at majority lack polling places;
• The combined counties had 38% of polling places in Georgia, for nearly 50% of Georgia's voters.

So allowing the legislature to step in would sound good, in theory. Unfortunately, the GOP which runs the state legislatures have repeatedly shown that, among other matters, they're willing to set up massive barriers to the voter IDs they claim (without evidence) is needed for election security, particularly by moving all such ID locations far from black neighborhoods, and by using highly questionable purging efforts such as Crosscheck which purports to find ineligible voters yet is correct below 1% of the time, and so forth. So the more voters complain, the more ammo they have to take over the voting.

And then it allows them to effectively throw out ballots as they see fit. You know, refuse to certify results, run things even worse, and so forth.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by Dani

Is this really the case?

Because I find the idea outrageous and I struggle to believe that this happens in your country.

And that's part of the problem. It is so outrageous that lots of people just can't quite grasp how bad it is. They think it's all being exaggerated. I saw a couple of articles not too long ago that showed a lot of Republican voters just could not be convinced that the policies of the party really were just as awful as the Democrats say they are, because they could not believe that the party supported things that were so outrageously bad.

Quote:

While 78 percent of likely voters know, correctly, that Democrats support protections for those with pre-existing conditions, a plurality (45 percent) of likely voters, incorrectly, think that Republicans do as well. Among voters that self-identify as Republican, 76 percent think that their party supports these protections.

Quote:

Likely voters do a slightly better job assigning policy positions when it comes to Medicaid expansion. Seventy-two percent of voters know that Democrats support its expansion. Still, a quarter (25 percent) of likely voters think that Republicans support this policy. Among Republicans, this number sits at 38 percent.

Quote:

Roughly two-thirds (65 percent) of likely know that the Democratic Party opposes allowing mining companies to dump debris into streams. A plurality (40 percent) of likely voters incorrectly think that Republicans oppose mining debris being dumped in streams. This is even more pronounced when one looks at attitudes among Republican voters: Sixty-one percent of them know that Democrats oppose this but 66 percent also think that Republicans oppose this.

Quote:

Next, I asked likely voters about the partisan support for $15 minimum wage. I found that 82 percent and 19 percent think that the Democratic and Republican Parties, respectively, support this wage hike. Nonetheless, almost a third (30 percent) of Republicans think that their party supports increasing the minimum wage to $15 an hour.

Quote:

Burton and his colleagues spent the early months of 2012 trying out the pitch that Romney was the most far-right presidential candidate since Barry Goldwater. It fell flat. The public did not view Romney as an extremist. For example, when Priorities informed a focus group that Romney supported the Ryan budget plan — and thus championed “ending Medicare as we know it” — while also advocating tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans, the respondents simply refused to believe any politician would do such a thing. What became clear was that voters had almost no sense of Obama’s opponent.

Quote:

I cover economic policy for a living, and have done so for 17 years now. So I know that a lot of smart, competent people who are kind and friendly in their interpersonal behavior sincerely believe that depriving working and middle-class families of economic resources to reduce taxation on the rich is the right thing to do. I am not sympathetic to that agenda, but a healthy number of decent people do think that way, and they are extremely influential in Republican Party politics.

But most voters find these ideas so outlandishly bad that they’ll only believe someone espouses them if you can convince them first that the person in question is a heartless monster.

While that doesn't address the voting issues under discussion, you can be sure that a lot of these people are treating it in the same way. "Oh, come on, there's no way they're really doing something so cartoonishly evil!"

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by Horatius

And that's part of the problem. It is so outrageous that lots of people just can't quite grasp how bad it is. They think it's all being exaggerated. I saw a couple of articles not too long ago that showed a lot of Republican voters just could not be convinced that the policies of the party really were just as awful as the Democrats say they are, because they could not believe that the party supported things that were so outrageously bad.



While that doesn't address the voting issues under discussion, you can be sure that a lot of these people are treating it in the same way. "Oh, come on, there's no way they're really doing something so cartoonishly evil!"

We have posters on this forum who feel the same way. Every time someone accurately describes a Republican position, these posters handwave it away as partisan hyperbole. People really do believe that the Republican party's actual positions are cartoonish caricatures that don't accurately reflect the Republican party's positions.

[Mumbles]

Originally Posted by wareyin

We have posters on this forum who feel the same way. Every time someone accurately describes a Republican position, these posters handwave it away as partisan hyperbole. People really do believe that the Republican party's actual positions are cartoonish caricatures that don't accurately reflect the Republican party's positions.

It's worth pointing out that GOP voters, and particularly Fox News watchers, are badly informed - it's common for them to insist that there's more racial discrimination in the US against white people than against black people, for example.

I'm pointing this one out in particular because it mangles their political opinions with regard to many subjects - they view Biden's relief plan as something that will help them, while "Obamacare" and the 2009 jobs and tax cuts were considered "handouts for blacks and illegals". Guess why.

With regard to this subject, the huffing about "You guys say everything is racist, you're the *real* racists*" is sincere by the rank-and-file, because that's what they've been told, over and over. Much like many honestly believed in and feared "Negro domination" post civil war, resulting in massacres, and many complained that "unqualified minorities" were stealing their jobs, to paraphrase one infamous campaign ad, the howls of "voter fraud" are also old as dirt - it was a central part of Birth of a Nation as one example - so white right-wingers in particular are led to believe in "busses of black people" voting fraudulently, leading to nonsense like this story from 2018 in Georgia.

(For reference, this is why I post so much of this sort of thing - so folks will have the info they need to counter standard arguments. "Well, there was a bus full of black people and I didn't know any of them" It was arranged by a local AME church. "Are you saying that black people are too dumb to go get ID" Well, a senior citizen, or a young person that uses public transit and needs multiple weekdays off just to get the ID required because their local DMVs were all shut down, aren't dumb, they're being blocked on purpose.)

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by Mumbles

"Are you saying that black people are too dumb to go get ID" Well, a senior citizen, or a young person that uses public transit and needs multiple weekdays off just to get the ID required because their local DMVs were all shut down, aren't dumb, they're being blocked on purpose.)

The really annoying thing is, even when this starts biting them in the ass, they still don't get it. A Facebook Friend's elderly father recently tried to renew his driver's license in Texas and ran face-first into the utter **** show Texas has made the process in order to "prevent fraud". He simply couldn't believe all his problems were because of the policies put in place by the Texas GOP government that he'd spent years voting for.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Horatius

The really annoying thing is, even when this starts biting them in the ass, they still don't get it. A Facebook Friend's elderly father recently tried to renew his driver's license in Texas and ran face-first into the utter **** show Texas has made the process in order to "prevent fraud". He simply couldn't believe all his problems were because of the policies put in place by the Texas GOP government that he'd spent years voting for.

Ideology is a hell of a drug.

[blutoski]

Originally Posted by wareyin

We have posters on this forum who feel the same way. Every time someone accurately describes a Republican position, these posters handwave it away as partisan hyperbole. People really do believe that the Republican party's actual positions are cartoonish caricatures that don't accurately reflect the Republican party's positions.

It's the same everywhere.

Here in Canada, the GOP equivalent Conservative Party just voted that Climate Change was not real. A Tory friend of mine didn't believe it when I mentioned it, so I sent her the link.

At this point she's 50% sure the only explanation is that the Conservatives' website must have been hacked by Liberals.

[blutoski]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Ideology is a hell of a drug.

Cognitive Dissonance definitely plays a role too.

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by Horatius

The really annoying thing is, even when this starts biting them in the ass, they still don't get it. A Facebook Friend's elderly father recently tried to renew his driver's license in Texas and ran face-first into the utter **** show Texas has made the process in order to "prevent fraud". He simply couldn't believe all his problems were because of the policies put in place by the Texas GOP government that he'd spent years voting for.

A co-worker faced the same issue here in GA. He was born overseas to a military father, (apparently in a local hospital over there) and so never had a birth certificate. He was genuinely upset about all the time off he had to take and hoops he had to jump through to be able to renew his drivers license (and be able to vote)^* but still talked about how elderly black people were too lazy to get their birth certificate to be able to get their voter ID to be able to vote. You just can't get people to have empathy.




^* You couldn't vote with an expired license in that election. I don't know if that has changed.

[JoeMorgue]

"They aren't hurting the people they are supposed to be hurting!" - Republican Voters.