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Old 30th March 2021, 02:10 PM   #161
Horatius
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"They aren't hurting the people they are supposed to be hurting!" - Republican Voters.


You'd think they'd at least consider not voting for them due to the sheer incompetence, then.....
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Old 30th March 2021, 02:13 PM   #162
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The new Georgia law bans third party groups from sending absentee ballot applications to voters. A provision that is just asking for a court to overturn it on first amendment grounds.
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Old 30th March 2021, 02:13 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I wonder, though, if sharing in line would be considered illegal giving, and get both parties thrown out of the line. It shouldn't of course, but "shouldn't" doesn't mean "wouldn't," and it would not surprise me much if that nebulous "gotcha" is part of the plan. Remember the kind of people we're dealing with here, and the value of action even if it fails in the end. Get a person out of the line, and the job is done. I think if I were a voter in a Georgia line, I'd not only bring my own food and water, but make sure I have a receipt for it.
They would need a whole lot of police around to deal with every polling place all over the state.
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Old 30th March 2021, 03:03 PM   #164
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I have said this before but will say it again: Georgia needs another little visit from General Sherman....
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Old 30th March 2021, 06:21 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
I wonder what the exact text of the law is. How far from the polling location would a food/water distribution have to be to be compliant? The old Georgia law prohibited campaigning within 150 feet of the building. It would seem that a line that takes hours to get through would be longer than 150 feet, so unless food and beverages are specifically treated differently than other forms of campaigning wouldn't the law be unenforceable?
Here is the law. The underlined portion is the new text to the existing law.

Quote:
(a) No person shall solicit votes in any manner or by any means or method, nor shall any person distribute or display any campaign material, nor shall any person give, offer to give, or participate in the giving of any money or gifts, including, but not limited to, food and drink, to an elector, nor shall any person solicit signatures for any petition, nor shall any person, other than election officials discharging their duties, establish or set up any tables or booths on any day in which ballots are being cast:

(1) Within 150 feet of the outer edge of any building within which a polling place is established;
(2) Within any polling place; or
(3) Within 25 feet of any voter standing in line to vote at any polling place.

These restrictions shall not apply to conduct occurring in private offices or areas which cannot be seen or heard by such electors.
You have to be at least 150 feet from the building and at least 25 feet from any voters in line.

There is also a Federal law that prohibits paying anyone to vote. That includes giving anyone anything of value. (That used to be defined in law but they took the definition quite a while back as unnecessary. The DOJ still considers it allowable to provide services that facilitate voting like giving someone a ride to the polls or watching someone's children while they vote.)

I'm finding it a bit difficult to trace back the history of the law. It goes back to 1948. But that appears to be based on a previous law from 1925. And that
appears to be based on something older still.

As I recall, back in the olden days political machines would send people down to working class areas where there were lots of people who were not educated and didn't read newspapers and didn't know who the candidates are and maybe didn't even know there was an election. They would hand out a dollar or something if someone would go in and vote. They would tell them to vote for a certain candidate because he is for the working man, even though that candidate is actually not at all for the working man.

It is obviously illegal to pay someone to vote for a certain candidate. And ballot are supposed to be secret. But they often had ways to find out who someone voted for. If they didn't vote like they were told they would have their money taken back and/or get beat up. Paying to vote was basically a loophole for a vote buying scheme.

Some groups hand out pizza to people standing in line to vote. They get around the Federal law by handing out pizza to anybody there: kids, election workers, people passing by. That way the receipt of free pizza is not conditional on voting and therefore isn't giving someone something of value to vote.

This Georgia law prevents that. I'm not sure that a law against paying people to vote is really even needed today. Paying someone to vote when ballots are secret isn't bad per se. It can lead to vote buying, I guess. Maybe. But this Georgia law is even much further remote from vote buying than that.
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Old 30th March 2021, 07:20 PM   #166
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Exclamation

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
.... The DOJ still considers it allowable to provide services that facilitate voting ....
So nothing to stop someone holding your place while you go and get some water and a sandwich?
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Old 30th March 2021, 08:00 PM   #167
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Is it illegal for me to just abandon a few cases of bottled water on the side of the street?

Then the voters can just claim it's legitimate salvage.
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Old 30th March 2021, 09:24 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Is it illegal for me to just abandon a few cases of bottled water on the side of the street?

Then the voters can just claim it's legitimate salvage.
There might be a trust issue - minority voters who already targeted might be suspicious of food and drinks of unknown origin.

I think the better plan is to pay for food delivery using a fake name and cash.
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Old 30th March 2021, 11:06 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
They would need a whole lot of police around to deal with every polling place all over the state.
I know I'm being overly pessimistic, but they would not need to deal with every polling place. A few selected ones would do. And they need not be that selective about arrests either. Arrest a whole bunch of people and hold them for a few hours and let them go without charges, and the job of voter suppression and intimidation is done with little cost.
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Old 31st March 2021, 01:03 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
They would need a whole lot of police around to deal with every polling place all over the state.
No, just those in minority, Democratic leaning, urban districts.

Thanks to the efforts of the Georgia legislature, there are relatively few of those polling stations.
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Old 31st March 2021, 04:07 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
They would need a whole lot of police around to deal with every polling place all over the state.
They would only need to patrol the few polling stations with the long queues.
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Old 31st March 2021, 05:36 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
There might be a trust issue - minority voters who already targeted might be suspicious of food and drinks of unknown origin.

Oh, it wouldn't be of unknown origin, I'd be quite deliberately dramatical in my abandonment. "Oh woe, alas! In my hubris, I over estimated my Canadian ability to carry all this water in this Intolerable Georgian Heat! I must abandon it, lest I perish er I ever make it back to my hotel! Weep, Wail!"




Quote:
I think the better plan is to pay for food delivery using a fake name and cash.


Well, it's not an either-or thing.
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Old 31st March 2021, 07:18 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
They would only need to patrol the few polling stations with the long queues.
And further restrict the polling locations to make it easier to enforce the law.
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Old 31st March 2021, 07:44 AM   #174
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And, of course, as the law seems to read, if by some fluke the results aren't what they like, they can just overturn them anyway. If the election goes my way, it's fair and democratic. If it doesn't it's fraud and I overturn it to restore fairness and democracy. As our former leader would say, it's beautiful and perfect.
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:01 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
And, of course, as the law seems to read, if by some fluke the results aren't what they like, they can just overturn them anyway. If the election goes my way, it's fair and democratic. If it doesn't it's fraud and I overturn it to restore fairness and democracy. As our former leader would say, it's beautiful and perfect.
If the Georgia legislature had its way, Trump would be President today.

Or he would have been except for losing in Arizona, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:42 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
They would need a whole lot of police around to deal with every polling place all over the state.
Naw, just the black ones.

Don't worrit yourself, dollin', ole Bubba knows how to handle this.
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Old 31st March 2021, 10:06 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
If the Georgia legislature had its way, Trump would be President today.

Or he would have been except for losing in Arizona, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.
It's lucky that T**** was so clumsy in his attack that he implied not only incompetence but disloyalty, both good for a temporary lapse in Raffensburger's anti-minority crusade.
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Old 31st March 2021, 10:54 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Looking from the outside, in a country where wait times at the polls are measured in minutes and not hours... That there exist such excessive wait times that food and drink might be necessary in the first place bespeaks of a rather dysfunctional system. To have allowed it to come to such a pass is already a sad indictment. And now to add insult to injury like this is despicable. A set up to invite the commission of this new 'crime.' It's like watching a same-but-different, American flavor of the debasement of politics that precedes a descent to madness.
I've voted in every Presidential and midterm election, and never had more than a few minutes in line, maybe 8 or 10 people in line at most. Most of those districts were in predominately minority populations. The hours long wait thing is sn anomality, albeit a planned one (tin foil voting hat comes out).

And it makes sense to not influence a voter in any way, even just to give them some food while wearing a t-shirt or button supporting your preferred candidate. Even if provided on the way out, voters in line could see who was providing the refreshments before casting their ballots.

In my hometown, we have had repeated problems keeping political support groups the required 50 feet from the gates. While a voter shouldn't be swayed by a water bottle just minutes from voting, just keep 'em separate. Bring your own snacks to avoid the sense of impropriety. And more importantly, badger the local election board relentlessly and year-round to stop long lines.
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Last edited by Thermal; 31st March 2021 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 31st March 2021, 11:17 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I've voted in every Presidential and midterm election, and never had more than a few minutes in line, maybe 8 or 10 people in line at most. Most of those districts were in predominately minority populations. The hours long wait thing is sn anomality, albeit a planned one (tin foil voting hat comes out).

And it makes sense to not influence a voter in any way, even just to give them some food while wearing a t-shirt or button supporting your preferred candidate. Even if provided on the way out, voters in line could see who was providing the refreshments before casting their ballots.

In my hometown, we have had repeated problems keeping political support groups the required 50 feet from the gates. While a voter shouldn't be swayed by a water bottle just minutes from voting, just keep 'em separate. Bring your own snacks to avoid the sense of impropriety. And more importantly, badger the local election board relentlessly and year-round to stop long lines.
I've voted in every Pres, midterm, and special election since moving to Georgia. We definitely have lines. Badgering the local election board, who answers to the Secretary of State who wants minority heavy areas to have long lines is....not exactly productive.

Even in my majority conservative white home county (pop ~170k, 71% white), I've had waits of over an hour several times.
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Old 31st March 2021, 11:21 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I've voted in every Pres, midterm, and special election since moving to Georgia. We definitely have lines. Badgering the local election board, who answers to the Secretary of State who wants minority heavy areas to have long lines is....not exactly productive.

Even in my majority conservative white home county (pop ~170k, 71% white), I've had waits of over an hour several times.
I assume it has to do with the district's specific density, then. My State, NJ, is the most densely populated in the country, but the specific districts I've lived in, come to think of it, we're fairly sparce for year round registered residents.
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Old 31st March 2021, 11:56 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I assume it has to do with the district's specific density, then. My State, NJ, is the most densely populated in the country, but the specific districts I've lived in, come to think of it, we're fairly sparce for year round registered residents.


Or it has to do with, it's not actually that hard to have sufficient capacity for the expected numbers of voters, if you actually give a **** about having a fair election.


No degree of analysis of details will let you figure this out, if the real problem is that the people in charge of running the election don't want to run a fair election.
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Old 31st March 2021, 12:16 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Or it has to do with, it's not actually that hard to have sufficient capacity for the expected numbers of voters, if you actually give a **** about having a fair election.


No degree of analysis of details will let you figure this out, if the real problem is that the people in charge of running the election don't want to run a fair election.
Well yeah, but in wareyin's anecdotal expeience, his conservative white district had hour waits. In my democratic and minority district, just minutes or march right up. Both of which are at odds with the presumption of bias. I'd be interested in how the numbers actually stack up, in terms of strict density as opposed to political malice.
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Old 31st March 2021, 12:55 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
Next major election, the Democrats will show up in mass to give water to voters. "I got arrested giving water to voters" t-shirts will be printed and handed out.
I have to double check, but I think the law makes it illegal to accept the water bottles. If so, the cops will either arrest and book people, or will pull folks out of line and drag them down to the station, hold them until the polls close, and then release them.
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Old 31st March 2021, 12:59 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well yeah, but in wareyin's anecdotal expeience, his conservative white district had hour waits. In my democratic and minority district, just minutes or march right up. Both of which are at odds with the presumption of bias. I'd be interested in how the numbers actually stack up, in terms of strict density as opposed to political malice.
Population density isn't the issue, you just increase polling places to match the increase in density. Heck in our last elections, I had 5 polling places within walking distance, 3 of which were open early, 2 of those being open all week for three weeks prior to polling day, the other open on the weekends, and I live in a city with just 80k residents. Oh, and the closest was literally across the street from me.

The issue that the US has is that Conservative State Governments want to make it harder to vote and so reduce the number of polling places, while Liberal State Governments what to make it easier to vote and so increase the number. The figures to look at would be to look at how many people each voting place services, overall, and how far they have to travel to get there.
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Old 31st March 2021, 01:17 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I assume it has to do with the district's specific density, then. My State, NJ, is the most densely populated in the country, but the specific districts I've lived in, come to think of it, we're fairly sparce for year round registered residents.
I'd just note that NJ did have issues this last election. It seems that in NJ each county gets to determine its number and placement of polling places and most counties had less in 2020 than in 2018, some radically so. The one that had the least was Morris County, population 491,845, with just 24.3%. That is 41 places compared to the 169 for the 2018 election. Funny thing, Morris County's Board of County Commissioners, the people that decide this sort of thing, is entirely made up of..... Republicans. c.f Camden, population 506,471. They retained 76.1% of the 2018 polling places for a total of 150 out of 197. And guess what... Their Board of County Commissioners, yes, it's entirely made up of Democrats.

Seeing the pattern here?
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Old 31st March 2021, 01:32 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
A fellow Canuck with similar observations.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall at those GOP meetings where they craft these ideas. I wonder if they twirl their mustaches and cackle like Palpatine while doing it.
It is even more absurd than that. Some of them believe that they are they the Rebels fighting against the Empire.
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Old 31st March 2021, 01:59 PM   #187
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Redcar And Cleveland, our council area, has a population of 136,000. A mix of industrial urban, small market towns and rural. We have 68 polling stations.

Our little town has 6 for a pop of 17,000 Open from 7 am to 10 at night.
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Old 31st March 2021, 02:35 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well yeah, but in wareyin's anecdotal expeience, his conservative white district had hour waits. In my democratic and minority district, just minutes or march right up. Both of which are at odds with the presumption of bias. I'd be interested in how the numbers actually stack up, in terms of strict density as opposed to political malice.
Yes, my conservative white distrIct actually has had wait times of over 4 hours with a total of 12 polling locations for some 118000 registered voters in 2018. We did have 1 early voting place as well. I vote early and even so had over an hour wait.

That's for my heavily conservative white district. Do you imagine that minority heavy democratic leaning districts like Fulton county with over 1million population is better, or worse?

Honestly, it's a little difficult to even find out how many polling places there are. They don't seem to have a list anywhere, and every link wants me to enter in my personal information to find my polling place rather than provide a count or list of all locations.
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:22 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I'd just note that NJ did have issues this last election. It seems that in NJ each county gets to determine its number and placement of polling places and most counties had less in 2020 than in 2018, some radically so. The one that had the least was Morris County, population 491,845, with just 24.3%. That is 41 places compared to the 169 for the 2018 election. Funny thing, Morris County's Board of County Commissioners, the people that decide this sort of thing, is entirely made up of..... Republicans. c.f Camden, population 506,471. They retained 76.1% of the 2018 polling places for a total of 150 out of 197. And guess what... Their Board of County Commissioners, yes, it's entirely made up of Democrats.

Seeing the pattern here?
Well, yes and no. Morris county is right next to NYC, a global infection hotspot. Kind of makes sense that they were on a pretty hard lockdown around election day, considering the prominence of the mail-in option.

Also, Jersey is part of the Blue Wall, and stopped counting votes on Election Day at around 60+/-% reporting, going Dem in it's traditional landslide. Also, I don't recall stories of long waits at either polling places you noted, though I may be wrong. Most of the physical poll voters would have been Republicans anyway, as virtually the whole Dem voting contingent (including yours truly) voted by mail for everyone's safety.
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:28 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Yes, my conservative white distrIct actually has had wait times of over 4 hours with a total of 12 polling locations for some 118000 registered voters in 2018. We did have 1 early voting place as well. I vote early and even so had over an hour wait.
Wow. Four hours is just ludicrous. I gather from the article that the problem is attributed to rapid growth in the county, that the election board has not been able to keep up with? Nonetheless, just ridiculous.

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That's for my heavily conservative white district. Do you imagine that minority heavy democratic leaning districts like Fulton county with over 1million population is better, or worse?

Honestly, it's a little difficult to even find out how many polling places there are. They don't seem to have a list anywhere, and every link wants me to enter in my personal information to find my polling place rather than provide a count or list of all locations.
Same here. Lots of info on how to find your personal polling place, little overview.
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Old 1st April 2021, 04:35 AM   #191
wareyin
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Wow. Four hours is just ludicrous. I gather from the article that the problem is attributed to rapid growth in the county, that the election board has not been able to keep up with? Nonetheless, just ridiculous.



Same here. Lots of info on how to find your personal polling place, little overview.
I'm pretty sure the election board has access to things like the number of registered voters, so they really should be able to keep up with growth. I think (but don't know for sure) that each county must go through the state for how many voting machines they get. Even pre-Covid our polling locations seemed to have a lot more space for more machines, and that certainly would have helped keep the lines down.
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Old 1st April 2021, 06:26 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I'd just note that NJ did have issues this last election. It seems that in NJ each county gets to determine its number and placement of polling places and most counties had less in 2020 than in 2018, some radically so. The one that had the least was Morris County, population 491,845, with just 24.3%. That is 41 places compared to the 169 for the 2018 election. Funny thing, Morris County's Board of County Commissioners, the people that decide this sort of thing, is entirely made up of..... Republicans. c.f Camden, population 506,471. They retained 76.1% of the 2018 polling places for a total of 150 out of 197. And guess what... Their Board of County Commissioners, yes, it's entirely made up of Democrats.

Seeing the pattern here?
Indiana has elections coordinate by the state. I do not have to go to any specific polling location, I can go anywhere in the state. And they have early voting going on for nearly a month before the election at various sites. There is pretty much an available voting site in the county on every weekday in the month leading up to the election.

There are still ID requirements, so it's not perfect, but voting is available at your convenient days. I tend to vote early on, but not the first day. Always a few people in line, but never anything long.

The ability to vote where and when works best for you is extremely helpful.
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Old 1st April 2021, 06:36 AM   #193
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Forgive me if I've posted this already. It's sometimes hard to keep track of what gets said in what thread....

This is one area where paper ballots win the day. Paper ballots are cheap to print, and "voting machines," which are just folding booths with a little desk and a curtain, are cheap too. My little town, with a total population of about a thousand, has, if I recall, five of these, making for twice that many "voting machines." Pass through the checkout line, handed ballots, take the to the booth, vote, check out as you deposit them in the boxes. There would be a little line as it takes a little time to find your name on the checklist, etc., but it's quick overall.
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Old 1st April 2021, 07:09 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
It is even more absurd than that. Some of them believe that they are they the Rebels fighting against the Empire.
Not surprising, given that some US billionaires think they are the Jews in Nazi Germany. For reals.
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Old 1st April 2021, 09:21 AM   #195
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Colorado mails a ballot to every registered voter. Ballots can be mailed in or delivered in person. Drop boxes are located at county offices, libraries, fire stations and even grocery stores. There are also vote centers for voting in person.
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Old 1st April 2021, 09:52 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Colorado mails a ballot to every registered voter. Ballots can be mailed in or delivered in person. Drop boxes are located at county offices, libraries, fire stations and even grocery stores. There are also vote centers for voting in person.
Maryland typically has 1 early voting location per county - and no-excuse mail in voting, as well as (outside of Baltimore) easy access to voting booths on voting day - I prefer voting in person, likely since that's how my mother and grandfather always took me to see them vote as a kid, so I would go in to basically no line on voting day itself.

I'll note that last season may have been very different - lots of drop boxes, who knows where in-person voting locations were - due to COVID naturally. We should probably look more to 2018 - pre-COVID, but post Shelby v. Holder, to see the sort of nonsense people were trying to pull off. Also, note that parts of NYC (which has a number of absurd and decrepit voting laws from around 1800), and California, were covered under preclearance when it was gutted - the places that managed to show they no longer needed it were mostly in northern Virginia and, of all places, southern Alaska.
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Old 2nd April 2021, 12:18 PM   #197
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Major League Baseball pulls the 2021 All Star Game, MBL Draft, out of Georgia in response to new laws.

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Major League Baseball is moving the 2021 All-Star Game and 2021 draft out of Atlanta in response to a new Georgia voting law that critics say unfairly limits access to the ballot box, especially for people of color.

"Over the last week, we have engaged in thoughtful conversations with Clubs, former and current players, the Players Association, and The Players Alliance, among others, to listen to their views," MLB commissioner Rob Manfred said in a statement. "I have decided that the best way to demonstrate our values as a sport is by relocating this year's All-Star Game and MLB Draft."

ESPN: https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...gia-voting-law
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Old 2nd April 2021, 01:14 PM   #198
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For those who wanted an in-depth look at Georgia's voter suppression law, here's one from the New York Times. For those thinking that the "snacks and water" is meant as a trap - that never works, the folks suing will look to build a case based on the entire law. As I said, the issue here is that the Supreme Court is inclined to go along with whatever states say on their face, much like how Jim Crow literacy tests didn't explicitly mention race.

One massive one - Atlanta will be forced to drop from 94 drop boxes, to a maximum of 23, and from potentially 24/7 to business hours only. Much of the rest we already discussed - banning mobile voting centers, increased state legislature control, and so forth.
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Old 2nd April 2021, 01:34 PM   #199
pgwenthold
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
For those who wanted an in-depth look at Georgia's voter suppression law, here's one from the New York Times. For those thinking that the "snacks and water" is meant as a trap - that never works, the folks suing will look to build a case based on the entire law. As I said, the issue here is that the Supreme Court is inclined to go along with whatever states say on their face, much like how Jim Crow literacy tests didn't explicitly mention race.

One massive one - Atlanta will be forced to drop from 94 drop boxes, to a maximum of 23, and from potentially 24/7 to business hours only. Much of the rest we already discussed - banning mobile voting centers, increased state legislature control, and so forth.
Did any of the lawsuits brought forth in Georgia contend that voter "irregularities" happened via drop boxes?

I mean, I thought the problem was dominion changing votes and suitcases of votes being smuggled in under tables?
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Old 2nd April 2021, 01:58 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Did any of the lawsuits brought forth in Georgia contend that voter "irregularities" happened via drop boxes?

I mean, I thought the problem was dominion changing votes and suitcases of votes being smuggled in under tables?

Georgia governor admits that controversial election law has nothing to do with voter fraud
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