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Old 2nd April 2021, 02:50 PM   #201
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I like the idea that it's "dealing with the mechanics" of the election, without suggesting that there was anything wrong before. When I took a sledge hammer to your carburetor, I was just dealing with your engine's mechanics. If it just happens not to run, well that's a separate issue.
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Old 2nd April 2021, 03:08 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I know I'm being overly pessimistic, but they would not need to deal with every polling place. A few selected ones would do. And they need not be that selective about arrests either. Arrest a whole bunch of people and hold them for a few hours and let them go without charges, and the job of voter suppression and intimidation is done with little cost.
You’re wrong.

Specifically, you are completely wrong when you say you are being overly pessimistic.
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Old 2nd April 2021, 03:59 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Major League Baseball pulls the 2021 All Star Game, MBL Draft, out of Georgia in response to new laws.




ESPN: https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...gia-voting-law
And Republicans are predictably having a hissy fit over that (The Hill via MSN)-
Quote:
GOP lawmakers derided the move as an example of "cancel culture" and defended the new law, which imposes new limits on voting in the Peach State.


"Georgians - and all Americans - should fully understand what the MLB's knee-jerk decision means: cancel culture and woke political activists are coming for every aspect of your life, sports included. If the left doesn't agree with you, facts and the truth do not matter," Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp (R) said in a statement. "This attack on our state is the direct result of repeated lies from Joe Biden and Stacey Abrams about a bill that expands access to the ballot box and ensures the integrity of our elections. I will not back down."

"This decision is not only economically harmful, it also robs Georgians of a special celebration of our national pastime free of politics. But Georgia will not be bullied by socialists and their sympathizers. We will continue to stand for accessible, secure elections that are free and fair," said David Ralston, the Republican speaker of the Georgia state House.
I think it's that "economically harmful" that is the real rub here. The GOP is fine with people speechifying against their needless bill, one that, by the governor's own admission, has nothing to do with "the integrity of our elections"; and they aren't worried about what the voters may say, since rigging against that is, after all, the design of the bill- but let someone with an effective voice have a meaningful say, and now Major League Baseball is "socialists and their sympathizers."

**** you, Republicans- you don't get to raise a storm and then cry like babies when you get swept up in your own wind.
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Old 2nd April 2021, 05:40 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
And Republicans are predictably having a hissy fit over that (The Hill via MSN)-

I think it's that "economically harmful" that is the real rub here. The GOP is fine with people speechifying against their needless bill, one that, by the governor's own admission, has nothing to do with "the integrity of our elections"; and they aren't worried about what the voters may say, since rigging against that is, after all, the design of the bill- but let someone with an effective voice have a meaningful say, and now Major League Baseball is "socialists and their sympathizers."

**** you, Republicans- you don't get to raise a storm and then cry like babies when you get swept up in your own wind.
Particularly noteworthy - the MLB discusses the law itself, and the opinions of the players and the teams (I assume they mean the team owners). The GOP is whining about Joe Biden and Stacey Abrams.

I'll also note the continued mangling of "cancel culture" here, although since "woke" means "opposed to structural racism", they're actually using the term correctly, if only coincidentally. I wouldn't be keen to give people like Kemp the benefit of the doubt at all, but considering what he pulled in 2018, I absolutely refuse to take him as some naive fool. He's attempting to push his own base to the "white people and Christian conservatives are the real oppressed groups" nonsense yet again.
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Old 3rd April 2021, 11:46 AM   #205
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How does limiting the number of ballot boxes in the most populous areas...read that 'urban areas with high black demographics'..."expand access to the ballot box"? Listening to Kemp's whitewashing and outrageous twisting of the clearly restrictive voting laws Georgia just passed reminded me once more of how low the GOP has truly fallen.
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Old 3rd April 2021, 01:32 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
How does limiting the number of ballot boxes in the most populous areas...read that 'urban areas with high black demographics'..."expand access to the ballot box"? Listening to Kemp's whitewashing and outrageous twisting of the clearly restrictive voting laws Georgia just passed reminded me once more of how low the GOP has truly fallen.
You’re talking to people who spent the last several years titling strict anti-abortion laws with names like “women’s health initiative” and similar. The GQP racists are perfectly happy with calling things like they aren’t.
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Old 3rd April 2021, 02:17 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
You’re talking to people who spent the last several years titling strict anti-abortion laws with names like “women’s health initiative” and similar. The GQP racists are perfectly happy with calling things like they aren’t.
True. Reminds me of the Defense of Marriage Act. As if allowing people of the same sex to marry jeopardized the marriages of people of the opposite sex? Somehow I just never could understand how my marriage would be threatened if Jane and Judy or Bob and Ted got married, too. Republicans always have had a gift for creating fear over threats that don't exist. It's what conservatism is all about. I don't think they're happy unless they're not.
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Old 3rd April 2021, 02:30 PM   #208
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They're now reacting to the commercial backlash by blaming liberal activism and cancel culture and saying it threatens business in the state. Apparently there's business but then there's business that isn't business. Or something.
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Old 3rd April 2021, 02:35 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
How does limiting the number of ballot boxes in the most populous areas...read that 'urban areas with high black demographics'..."expand access to the ballot box"? Listening to Kemp's whitewashing and outrageous twisting of the clearly restrictive voting laws Georgia just passed reminded me once more of how low the GOP has truly fallen.
Georgia law does not permit ballot boxes. It was only allowed this time due to an emergency exception rule by the State Election Board due to covid. This law makes ballot boxes legal even when there is not an emergency.
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Old 3rd April 2021, 02:37 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
They're now reacting to the commercial backlash by blaming liberal activism and cancel culture and saying it threatens business in the state. Apparently there's business but then there's business that isn't business. Or something.
That invisible hand can show up unexpectedly sometimes.
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Old 3rd April 2021, 03:01 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
That invisible hand can show up unexpectedly sometimes.
I won't claim that businesses have much more than profit in mind when they make these moves - but if the GOP were serious about governing, they'd take a second to consider the implication of "corporations consider it maximally profitable to oppose us directly and clearly."
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Old 3rd April 2021, 03:35 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
Georgia law does not permit ballot boxes. It was only allowed this time due to an emergency exception rule by the State Election Board due to covid. This law makes ballot boxes legal even when there is not an emergency.
True, but that does not change the fact that the most populous urban areas , i.e. where most Black people live, will have fewer drop boxes.

Quote:
The law says that each county can't have more than one drop box per early voting site or per 100,000 active registered voters, whichever number is smaller. This provision will dramatically reduce the number of drop boxes available in some large counties. Fulton County, for example, says it would go from 38 drop boxes in the November election to eight in the future.

In addition, the law says that drop boxes need to be located at elections offices or inside early voting locations. And it says the boxes can only be available during the hours that early voting is available. (If the governor declares an emergency, the boxes can be located outdoors.) In 2020, drop boxes could be located outside, available 24 hours a day, and open until the evening of Election Day.
https://www.wrcbtv.com/story/4358765...-actually-does

Fulton County was instrumental in Biden and the two Dem senatorial candidates winning in Georgia. The Repubs know that.
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Old 3rd April 2021, 03:43 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
True, but that does not change the fact that the most populous urban areas , i.e. where most Black people live, will have fewer drop boxes.


https://www.wrcbtv.com/story/4358765...-actually-does

Fulton County was instrumental in Biden and the two Dem senatorial candidates winning in Georgia. The Repubs know that.
Without the law they would go back to having zero drop boxes in future elections, just like the elections before the 2020 general election.
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Old 3rd April 2021, 03:55 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
Without the law they would go back to having zero drop boxes in future elections, just like the elections before the 2020 general election.
Then they should have expanded the maximum number beyond what they had - and not forced them to put them indoors
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Old 3rd April 2021, 04:34 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
Without the law they would go back to having zero drop boxes in future elections, just like the elections before the 2020 general election.
Do you think the people would stand for that now? You can't put the milk back in the cow once it's out. There's been an awakening in Georgia among minority voters thanks to Stacey Abrams and her Fair Fight Organization. They've seen what they can do when they get out and vote and they're not going to allow the kinds of voter suppression tactics the Republicans have used before to continue. They tried to cancel vote by mail except by approved excuse but there was such an outcry they had to relent but they succeeded in placing voter ID requirements to vote by mail which primarily negatively impacts minority voters. That was their goal in the first place so they effectively won that battle after all.
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Old 3rd April 2021, 06:24 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Do you think the people would stand for that now? You can't put the milk back in the cow once it's out. There's been an awakening in Georgia among minority voters thanks to Stacey Abrams and her Fair Fight Organization. They've seen what they can do when they get out and vote and they're not going to allow the kinds of voter suppression tactics the Republicans have used before to continue. They tried to cancel vote by mail except by approved excuse but there was such an outcry they had to relent but they succeeded in placing voter ID requirements to vote by mail which primarily negatively impacts minority voters. That was their goal in the first place so they effectively won that battle after all.
Have you not noticed that the GQP’s instinctive reaction to any loss is to try and squeeze harder? They don’t care if it snaps, breaks, or more likely, gives them a venomous bite. They’ll just squeeze harder.
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Old 3rd April 2021, 10:49 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Have you not noticed that the GQP’s instinctive reaction to any loss is to try and squeeze harder? They don’t care if it snaps, breaks, or more likely, gives them a venomous bite. They’ll just squeeze harder.
Then scream that they're the victims of unfair treatment. Which is exactly the crap they're pulling now.
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Old 4th April 2021, 04:57 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Then scream that they're the victims of unfair treatment. Which is exactly the crap they're pulling now.
The key is that "they" includes the intended audience, not just the governor and the assembly.

In other words, it's an intentional splitting of people along racial and rural/urban divide, except unlike Nixon they're willfully taking the smaller half, thus both justifying and also requiring (to keep them in charge) the suppression efforts. Basically, stepping into their own bear trap, except people give them money so they can "stand up to those race baiters Joe Biden and Stacey Abrams - oh and that Kamala Harris".
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Old 4th April 2021, 05:00 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
And Republicans are predictably having a hissy fit over that (The Hill via MSN)-
In what way is MLB is using cancel culture, when it's essentially canceling itself as a protest?
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Old 4th April 2021, 06:10 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I won't claim that businesses have much more than profit in mind when they make these moves - but if the GOP were serious about governing, they'd take a second to consider the implication of "corporations consider it maximally profitable to oppose us directly and clearly."
Yep. The GOP uncorked that bottle themselves and let the genie out- "corporations are people too!" with free-speech and religious freedom rights (Hobby Lobby), and it apparently never occurred to Republicans that the corporations would ever turn on them, effectively using the same means to disagree with them that the GOP eagerly sought when they wanted their support, i.e., their money. "Corporations are people" until they say something the right doesn't want to hear, then they are "omg! woke socialists!" who should just STFU.
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Old 4th April 2021, 02:06 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
In what way is MLB is using cancel culture, when it's essentially canceling itself as a protest?


"The cancelling is coming from inside the house!"
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Old 4th April 2021, 02:26 PM   #222
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I wonder if we all even agree that it's probably a bad idea to offer material incentives to go out and vote.
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Old 4th April 2021, 03:02 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I wonder if we all even agree that it's probably a bad idea to offer material incentives to go out and vote.
No. I don't agree at all.

You could claim that it's a bad idea to offer incentives to vote for a particular candidate.

But just to go out to vote? Material incentives can be ok.

I get a sticker that says "I voted." Are you opposed to them?

I have absolutely no problem with giving free juice and donuts to everyone who votes. Do you?
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Old 4th April 2021, 03:09 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I wonder if we all even agree that it's probably a bad idea to offer material incentives to go out and vote.
I hardly doubt it would be hard to make a pointless contrarian position manifest from somewhere if you try hard enough.

Cough. Cough.
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Old 4th April 2021, 04:10 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I wonder if we all even agree that it's probably a bad idea to offer material incentives to go out and vote.
Yeah, I'd definitely whore out my vote in exchange for a 4 cent bottle of Aquafina.
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Old 4th April 2021, 04:48 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I wonder if we all even agree that it's probably a bad idea to offer material incentives to go out and vote.
"Republican Voter Suppression Rationalization #623 you have clearance for landing on runway 23"
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Old 4th April 2021, 04:51 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I wonder if we all even agree that it's probably a bad idea to offer material incentives to go out and vote.
If a Congressmen can take huge donations and then bectrusted to make unbiased votes, why deny the average citizen the same right? And unlike the politicians, the voters are casting secret ballots. You can bribe a citizen for a specific vote but you have no way to hold them accountable.

I use to drive voters to the polls. We had water in the bus for anyone. Tell me what is wrong with this again?
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Old 4th April 2021, 04:54 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
No. I don't agree at all.

You could claim that it's a bad idea to offer incentives to vote for a particular candidate.

But just to go out to vote? Material incentives can be ok.

I get a sticker that says "I voted." Are you opposed to them?

I have absolutely no problem with giving free juice and donuts to everyone who votes. Do you?
There was always coffee, juice and sometimes treats at the polls before my state went to mail in voting.
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Old 4th April 2021, 05:45 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Then they should have expanded the maximum number beyond what they had - and not forced them to put them indoors
That's the actual problem. The law does expand voting access by allowing drop boxes when the previous law did not, but it is so limited is really only technically allowed enough to say that they are expanding access while making them functionally useless.

The law limits the boxes in a county to 1 per 100,000 registered voters. There are 159 counties in Georgia ranging in population from about 1,600 to about 1 million. Of the 159 counties, only 25 have a population over 100,000. Only 4 have a population over 300,000. And that's population, not registered voters.

That means something like only about 15 counties that could have drop boxes at all with most only having 1 or 2, and only 4 counties with 6-8 boxes.

Putting the boxes on government property may not be a bad idea. That could eliminate the problems with fake boxes like we saw in Los Angeles. And having them indoors keeps them safe. But it also eliminates much of the functional benefit of the boxes. People can drop off ballots at the county office. But it much easier to drop them off at a local box after work or on a weekend.

These restrictions make it look like they are setting it up to fail. With only a few boxes at a few locations available during a few hours, the boxes may not get much use. Then they will say that such a small number of ballots are received at the boxes that it is not worth continuing the program. They will say they gave these drop boxes a shot but they just don't work and cause too much overhead and too many risks.
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Old 4th April 2021, 05:52 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
That's the actual problem. The law does expand voting access by allowing drop boxes when the previous law did not, but it is so limited is really only technically allowed enough to say that they are expanding access while making them functionally useless.

The law limits the boxes in a county to 1 per 100,000 registered voters. There are 159 counties in Georgia ranging in population from about 1,600 to about 1 million. Of the 159 counties, only 25 have a population over 100,000. Only 4 have a population over 300,000. And that's population, not registered voters.

That means something like only about 15 counties that could have drop boxes at all with most only having 1 or 2, and only 4 counties with 6-8 boxes.

Putting the boxes on government property may not be a bad idea. That could eliminate the problems with fake boxes like we saw in Los Angeles. And having them indoors keeps them safe. But it also eliminates much of the functional benefit of the boxes. People can drop off ballots at the county office. But it much easier to drop them off at a local box after work or on a weekend.

These restrictions make it look like they are setting it up to fail. With only a few boxes at a few locations available during a few hours, the boxes may not get much use. Then they will say that such a small number of ballots are received at the boxes that it is not worth continuing the program. They will say they gave these drop boxes a shot but they just don't work and cause too much overhead and too many risks.
In Washington State, we have secure ballot boxes at all kinds of public buildings. Almost all public libraries seem to have them. Many Fire Departments, Post Offices, City Halls, etc. It works great.
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Old 4th April 2021, 06:50 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
In Washington State, we have secure ballot boxes at all kinds of public buildings. Almost all public libraries seem to have them. Many Fire Departments, Post Offices, City Halls, etc. It works great.
Outdoors, too. And I can't find any examples of tampering. Also looks like many of them are large and have the same look. And procedures in place to make sure everything gets counted properly. That's the way to do it. I read half of Washington's ballots are collected this way.

Washington has about 10 times as many as what would be allowed in Georgia.

It gets exhausting hearing that this type of voting or gun control or health care won't work and will have all kinds of problems even though it works well in a bunch of other places. It's not like ballot boxes are a brand new thing that nobody has ever tried before.

This isn't that difficult.
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Old 4th April 2021, 06:59 PM   #232
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Again we're looking for counter-arguments about security when "We don't want black people, poor people, and Democrats to vote" being their actual motivation isn't exactly something they are hiding.

There's no point in wasting the effort countering the reasons they are only like halfway at best even pretending are the real reason and everyone knows aren't.
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Old 4th April 2021, 07:05 PM   #233
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Rep Clyburn on Chris Hayes this week pointed out Kemp is only in that governor's seat because he purged the voter roles when he had Raffensperger's job as Sec of State while he ran in the same election he also oversaw. Kemp stole the election from Abrams and he knows it. So of course he's (along with the Georgia State legislature) expanding on that tactic.

Georgia needs to purge their own House among other things. And Abrams has moved on from her loss. Instead of crying the vote was stolen she's working hard to enlist more voters.

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Old 4th April 2021, 07:11 PM   #234
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And it's back-firing that they included the water and food ban which I'm sure sounded good in the echo-chamber. It makes a great sound bite they are getting hit over the head with.
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Old 4th April 2021, 07:13 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And it's back-firing that they included the water and food ban which I'm sure sounded good in the echo-chamber. It makes a great sound bite they are getting hit over the head with.
The GQPs PR motto these days is simply “That Tweet sounded good in my head”.
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Old 4th April 2021, 07:22 PM   #236
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I think the "material incentives" issue is telling here, and unfortunately I think it suggests an inherently anti-democratic point of view when applied here. Nobody is actually talking about offering material incentives to vote, really. They're talking about minimally humane mitigation of the existing and very real material disincentives to voting that actually exist, and for which no good excuse can be mustered.

What exists now is voter suppression and disincentive to voting, and it's visible and ugly. Making it less punishing to vote despite this suppression is a material incentive only insofar as it's opposed entirely by those who are responsible for the attempt to manipulate democracy through means that are transparently anti-democratic.

If one considers simply making the voting process more reasonable and endurable to be a "material incentive" then I think it is very hard not to presume that the person calling it that believes that voting should be made systematically difficult, inconvenient, and even physically impossible for a large segment of society.
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Old 4th April 2021, 07:23 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
In Washington State, we have secure ballot boxes at all kinds of public buildings. Almost all public libraries seem to have them. Many Fire Departments, Post Offices, City Halls, etc. It works great.
Same in Maryland - all covered by cameras 24/7 Had a grand total of one case of tampering, when a mentally ill person set one on fire for who knows what reason.

(I'll note, yet again, that we should be doing far more to help people having serious mental illness episodes than "send cops to scream and point weapons at them".)
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Old 4th April 2021, 07:44 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
Outdoors, too. And I can't find any examples of tampering. Also looks like many of them are large and have the same look. And procedures in place to make sure everything gets counted properly. That's the way to do it. I read half of Washington's ballots are collected this way.

Washington has about 10 times as many as what would be allowed in Georgia.

It gets exhausting hearing that this type of voting or gun control or health care won't work and will have all kinds of problems even though it works well in a bunch of other places. It's not like ballot boxes are a brand new thing that nobody has ever tried before.

This isn't that difficult.
No it's not difficult.
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Old 4th April 2021, 11:32 PM   #239
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Here in Oregon we have convenient drive up drop off ballot boxes at many sites. We don't even have to get out of our car. We've been voting exclusively by mail since 1998:

Quote:
Oregon has mailed out millions of ballots over the past three decades, with about a dozen cases of actual fraud. Most problems were unintentional errors involving signing the wrong mailing envelope or assuming that a voter could sign the mailing envelope for a family member.
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Old 5th April 2021, 08:57 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Yeah, I'd definitely whore out my vote in exchange for a 4 cent bottle of Aquafina.
If you were going to the All Star game
that now will be somewhere else it would cost you probably 6 bucks.

Although supposedly the reason is not so much the buying of votes but electioneering while giving the drinks to those in line.
I know in NY they told the man ahead of me in line leave because he had a MAGA sweatshirt on. He was not talking to people. Not the same exactly.
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