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Old 25th March 2021, 04:57 AM   #81
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Tugs are basically just large engines that float. In the confines of a canal the largest possible engine contained in the smallest possible hull would be the best combination.
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Old 25th March 2021, 04:59 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Tugs are basically just large engines that float. In the confines of a canal the largest possible engine contained in the smallest possible hull would be the best combination.
You also want a hull that doesn't come apart under the strain.
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Old 25th March 2021, 05:19 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
You also want a hull that doesn't come apart under the strain.
Of course. But the hull can be compact and strong. A large hull is not necessary for strength.

ETA: a properly engineered tug was an assumption in my generalization. I didn't think I had to discuss all the details
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Old 25th March 2021, 06:31 AM   #84
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This is a good resource for all things 'Tug'

Modern harbour and shiphandling tugs use an 'azimuthal thruster' for propulsion, they steer using their propellors which can pivot through 360 degrees under the hull allowing them to direct thrust where it is needed without having to turn the hull.

Voith pioneered this in the 50s and most tugs since then have used this propulsion method.
shiphandling tugs tend to have the propellors forward of the beam and are in effect 'tractors' they are pulled through the water rather than pushed. This allows more effective and safer towing.

‘Rotor Tug’ and the ‘Ship Docking Module’ (SDM) tugs are becoming popular. Both are capable of
generating their full bollard pull in any direction (360 degrees) around the
tug.

Typical 'bollard pull' is around 40 to 50 tons.

This is a good paper on the development of tugs over the years.

https://www.tugmasters.org/wp-conten...ack-gaston.pdf

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 25th March 2021 at 06:37 AM.
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Old 25th March 2021, 07:06 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
This is a good resource for all things 'Tug'

Modern harbour and shiphandling tugs use an 'azimuthal thruster' for propulsion, they steer using their propellors which can pivot through 360 degrees under the hull allowing them to direct thrust where it is needed without having to turn the hull.

Voith pioneered this in the 50s and most tugs since then have used this propulsion method.
shiphandling tugs tend to have the propellors forward of the beam and are in effect 'tractors' they are pulled through the water rather than pushed. This allows more effective and safer towing.

‘Rotor Tug’ and the ‘Ship Docking Module’ (SDM) tugs are becoming popular. Both are capable of
generating their full bollard pull in any direction (360 degrees) around the
tug.

Typical 'bollard pull' is around 40 to 50 tons.

This is a good paper on the development of tugs over the years.

https://www.tugmasters.org/wp-conten...ack-gaston.pdf
Once again putting the E in ISF.
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Old 25th March 2021, 07:08 AM   #86
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They probably borrowed the tugs that were towing barges in the canal.
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Old 25th March 2021, 08:45 AM   #87
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There are a lot of shiphandling tugs at Port Said at the north end, Suez Port to the south and Ismailia half way down the canal.
Barge towing or 'pusher' tugs are different beasts.
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Old 25th March 2021, 08:53 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
They will have used the ships own winches and maybe even the capstans and anchor chains, they can exert a huge force.
From the minuscule amount of research I've done, it looks like cable strength is not the limiting factor. Tug engine power is, followed by bollard anchor strength.

And, again, we see what kind of tugs they are using in the canal for this job. Forgive the appeal to authority, but I'm pretty sure they know what they're doing a lot better than you do.

I mean, you're having a hypothetical slapfight over tugboats, with the team that just ungrounded a 200,000 ton freighter in under 24 hours. Not to belabor the point, but it's a pretty comical point.
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Old 25th March 2021, 09:09 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
From the minuscule amount of research I've done, it looks like cable strength is not the limiting factor. Tug engine power is, followed by bollard anchor strength.

And, again, we see what kind of tugs they are using in the canal for this job. Forgive the appeal to authority, but I'm pretty sure they know what they're doing a lot better than you do.

I mean, you're having a hypothetical slapfight over tugboats, with the team that just ungrounded a 200,000 ton freighter in under 24 hours. Not to belabor the point, but it's a pretty comical point.
Ever Given has been refloated? Got a link for that?
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Old 25th March 2021, 09:46 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Ever Given has been refloated? Got a link for that?
Partially refloated:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post13434301

Anyway, I think the degree of refloating so far achieved doesn't detract from my point about the choice of tugs to use for the work.
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Old 25th March 2021, 10:14 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
From the minuscule amount of research I've done, it looks like cable strength is not the limiting factor. Tug engine power is, followed by bollard anchor strength.

And, again, we see what kind of tugs they are using in the canal for this job. Forgive the appeal to authority, but I'm pretty sure they know what they're doing a lot better than you do.

I mean, you're having a hypothetical slapfight over tugboats, with the team that just ungrounded a 200,000 ton freighter in under 24 hours. Not to belabor the point, but it's a pretty comical point.
I didn't see Captain Swoop arguing with the team on site, but the suggestion that some ocean going "super" tug was being brought in from afar to handle this situation. Also, he seemed to be providing background info for the noobs like me who don't know squat about this type of stuff.

As you noted earlier, they are likely prepared for this and have a playbook. That it has never happened is good, but it has likely always been in their plans to deal with something like this.
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Old 25th March 2021, 10:43 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
From the minuscule amount of research I've done, it looks like cable strength is not the limiting factor. Tug engine power is, followed by bollard anchor strength.

And, again, we see what kind of tugs they are using in the canal for this job. Forgive the appeal to authority, but I'm pretty sure they know what they're doing a lot better than you do.

I mean, you're having a hypothetical slapfight over tugboats, with the team that just ungrounded a 200,000 ton freighter in under 24 hours. Not to belabor the point, but it's a pretty comical point.
If you pull a static load you will part the cable, it's not the same as a ship free to move. Even with a moving ship a cable can part.
That's one of the reasons for using several tugs and cables. If you want more pull you put more cables on and use more boats.
It's also why when towing at sea you have a cable as long as possible to act as a shock absorber to damp out the effect of rolling in any kind of swell, it can part a cable like it was cotton.

They used the shiphandling tugs that had available, it's what they are designed for.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 25th March 2021 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 25th March 2021, 11:04 AM   #93
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It in the hands of Smit Salvage (part of Boskalis) now.

If anyone can do it, they are.
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Old 25th March 2021, 01:09 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
It in the hands of Smit Salvage (part of Boskalis) now.

If anyone can do it, they are.
Ah, yes; I've had many dealings with them myself. Absolutely recommended.
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Old 25th March 2021, 01:32 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
This is a good resource for all things 'Tug'

Modern harbour and shiphandling tugs use an 'azimuthal thruster' for propulsion, they steer using their propellors which can pivot through 360 degrees under the hull allowing them to direct thrust where it is needed without having to turn the hull.

Voith pioneered this in the 50s and most tugs since then have used this propulsion method.
shiphandling tugs tend to have the propellors forward of the beam and are in effect 'tractors' they are pulled through the water rather than pushed. This allows more effective and safer towing.

‘Rotor Tug’ and the ‘Ship Docking Module’ (SDM) tugs are becoming popular. Both are capable of
generating their full bollard pull in any direction (360 degrees) around the
tug.

Typical 'bollard pull' is around 40 to 50 tons.

This is a good paper on the development of tugs over the years.

https://www.tugmasters.org/wp-conten...ack-gaston.pdf
Excellent, thank you.
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Old 25th March 2021, 03:01 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
It in the hands of Smit Salvage (part of Boskalis) now.

If anyone can do it, they are.
It could take weeks, apparently.

Quote:
However, Peter Berdowski, CEO of Boskalis, a specialist dredging company that has sent a crew to the scene, said data so far suggested “it is not really possible to pull it loose” and that the ship may need to be unloaded. “We can’t exclude it might take weeks, depending on the situation,” Berdowski told Dutch television.

He said the ship’s bow and stern had been lifted up against either side of the canal. “It’s like an enormous beached whale. It’s an enormous weight on the sand. We might have to work with a combination of reducing the weight by removing containers, oil and water from the ship, tugboats and dredging of sand.”

Peter Sands, chief shipping analyst at the shipowners association Bimco, said companies were still counting on the canal reopening soon, “but they are slowly moving to the second contingency plan where this will drag on for another four or five days, and they fear it could go on even longer”.
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Old 25th March 2021, 03:04 PM   #97
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That sounds pretty exciting. As a shipping container nerd, I'm looking forward to seeing how they end up offloading the containers.

Guess I was wrong about it being refloated. My bad!
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Old 25th March 2021, 03:06 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That sounds pretty exciting. As a shipping container nerd, I'm looking forward to seeing how they end up offloading the containers.

Guess I was wrong about it being refloated. My bad!
Crane barge alongside and lift them off one at a time.
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Old 25th March 2021, 03:14 PM   #99
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Any way to add more water to the canal?
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Old 25th March 2021, 03:27 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The first time I read this post, I thought that "Hull size" was a class of tug (larger than Grimsby size, smaller than Felixstowe size).
Its measured in patties.
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Old 25th March 2021, 03:39 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Any way to add more water to the canal?
Unfortunately not. The sea level at both ends of the Canal is only negligibly different, so the Suez has no locks whatsoever that could allow water levels to be raised or lowered.
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Old 25th March 2021, 03:47 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That sounds pretty exciting. As a shipping container nerd, I'm looking forward to seeing how they end up offloading the containers.

Guess I was wrong about it being refloated. My bad!
The 'partially refloated' was from the Canal Authority which might be minimizing the scale of the problem.

But here is the latest from them anyway:

Quote:
Efforts are continuing today (25 March) to refloat the container vessel that ran aground on Tuesday, bringing Suez Canal transits to a halt. Two dredgers have now been sent to assist the operation, which is still ongoing.

The Suez Canal Authority is arranging for three ships located behind the grounded vessel to exit the Canal and to wait at Suez outer anchorage, awaiting further developments.

About 29 ships are reported to be waiting at Suez anchorage, and about 36 at Port Said outer anchorage.
Again from GAC (Dubai based shipping agency)
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Old 25th March 2021, 03:49 PM   #103
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The ships will need a tow, there isn't enough width for them to turn round.

Lots of ships will have been diverted round the Horn. That will add considerably to their journey time and will mean they need to make a refuelling stop somewhere and a lot of crews will be going over their contract time.

Plus the Somali Pirates will be filling their fuel tanks and polishing their RPGs.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 25th March 2021 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 25th March 2021, 03:49 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Any way to add more water to the canal?
Tide goes in, tide goes out......
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Old 25th March 2021, 05:06 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
The ships will need a tow, there isn't enough width for them to turn round.

Lots of ships will have been diverted round the Horn. That will add considerably to their journey time and will mean they need to make a refuelling stop somewhere and a lot of crews will be going over their contract time.

Plus the Somali Pirates will be filling their fuel tanks and polishing their RPGs.
Hang tight in the hopes that it will be cleared, or take the 8 day hit by diverting around the Horn.

This is not a decision I would wish to be placed in front of me.
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Old 25th March 2021, 05:11 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Tide goes in, tide goes out......
You can't explain that.
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Old 25th March 2021, 05:16 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Hang tight in the hopes that it will be cleared, or take the 8 day hit by diverting around the Horn.

This is not a decision I would wish to be placed in front of me.
Still, it's pretty amazing that running from the Med, all the way around Africa, and back to the Indian Ocean only takes 8 days. What an age we live in!
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Old 25th March 2021, 05:38 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Perhaps the UK could offer to send our troops to help, we’ve some form with the canal!
A nuke may help.
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Old 25th March 2021, 05:49 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
The 'partially refloated' was from the Canal Authority which might be minimizing the scale of the problem.



But here is the latest from them anyway:







Again from GAC (Dubai based shipping agency)
It's always been partially afloat.
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Old 25th March 2021, 06:52 PM   #110
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Common land based cranes can unload containers onto trucks. Not as efficient as the fixed harbor container handlers, but doable. And there are off-road forklifts that can stack them on the sand.Last pic I saw showed a dirt handler (tired loader) at the bow, so there is road access.
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Old 25th March 2021, 07:57 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Common land based cranes can unload containers onto trucks. Not as efficient as the fixed harbor container handlers, but doable. And there are off-road forklifts that can stack them on the sand.Last pic I saw showed a dirt handler (tired loader) at the bow, so there is road access.
I saw a photo with the excavator. Seems like that cruel fairytale task of 'drain the pond with a spoon'.


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Old 25th March 2021, 08:09 PM   #112
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Looking at the photo I wonder if it's feasible to blast the bow area with high pressure hoses?? (like the fire hoses they already use, but turned up to 11)
Suck out the dislodged dirt. Rinse and repeat.

It would be rather easy to do so there must be a reason why it doesnt work. (I'm sure someone here knows!)
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Old 25th March 2021, 09:46 PM   #113
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This'll end well.

Suez canal blockage: tell us your ideas for how the Ever Given can be refloated

Quote:
We would like to hear from readers about how the giant container ship Ever Given could be freed


Salvage teams from all over the world have been enlisted to help try to refloat the stricken container ship Ever Given after it became stuck in the Suez canal three days ago.

Efforts to pull it free using tug ships have so far failed as have attempts to dig it out of the sandy banks where it has become wedged. One expert said the cargo of thousands of containers might have to be unloaded, a process that could take weeks.

But are the experts missing something? We would like to hear from you about how the ship could be freed, particularly if you are a salvage expert, an engineer or you have significant experience in shipping.
There's a form and everything. I'm sure you have some good ideas.
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Old 25th March 2021, 10:40 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This'll end well.

Suez canal blockage: tell us your ideas for how the Ever Given can be refloated

There's a form and everything. I'm sure you have some good ideas.
Here is my (probably stupid) idea:
Pump out 50%, maybe even more, of the fuel and water ballast and intentionally list the boat to its max tolerance for a cargo ship like that.
Simultaneously dig and use tug boats until something gives. If listing port doesn't work, try listing starboard. I also like Sherkeu's idea of using something like a pressure washer and vacuum to move the sand more efficiently.

ETA: list by using the fuel and water pumps

Last edited by portlandatheist; 25th March 2021 at 10:43 PM. Reason: ETA
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Old 25th March 2021, 10:50 PM   #115
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Old 26th March 2021, 12:12 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This'll end well.

Suez canal blockage: tell us your ideas for how the Ever Given can be refloated

There's a form and everything. I'm sure you have some good ideas.
I have put in my idea. Not that they would even consider it as I have no expertise in the area. I also consider it unlikely they would use ANY of the ideas given to the paper. If they use any idea then the person deserves a medal.
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Old 26th March 2021, 12:20 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This'll end well.

Suez canal blockage: tell us your ideas for how the Ever Given can be refloated

There's a form and everything. I'm sure you have some good ideas.

Get Uri Geller to wiggle his fingers over it.
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Old 26th March 2021, 01:00 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This'll end well.

Suez canal blockage: tell us your ideas for how the Ever Given can be refloated

There's a form and everything. I'm sure you have some good ideas.

If they're looking for joke answers, I've already posted two different ones in this thread. (1. Dump laxative/stool softener into the canal. 2. Let some air out of the tires.)

Here's one that would take longer than unloading the cargo. Dam off the section the ship is in with sand berms, then dump thousands of tons of salt into that section, increasing the density of the water to float the ship higher. Align the ship correctly, then dig/dredge out the sand dams.

This one might work, technically: Hire two fully laden ships the size of Ever Given. Steam them into the canal in reverse, one from each end so their sterns are toward the Ever Given. Once they're in position at equal distance from the Ever Given, have them accelerate to flank speed (still in reverse). They'll push water ahead of them, and when they all converge, the Ever Given will float. For a moment.
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Old 26th March 2021, 02:11 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
Its measured in patties.
Brontosaurs. The current blockage is an 18 brontosaur one. Or approximately 23 megabadgers.
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Old 26th March 2021, 02:13 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Common land based cranes can unload containers onto trucks. Not as efficient as the fixed harbor container handlers, but doable. And there are off-road forklifts that can stack them on the sand.Last pic I saw showed a dirt handler (tired loader) at the bow, so there is road access.
Would they have the arm length to hoist loaded containers? And can the bank stand the weight?
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