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Old 26th March 2021, 02:14 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This'll end well.

Suez canal blockage: tell us your ideas for how the Ever Given can be refloated

There's a form and everything. I'm sure you have some good ideas.
That reminds me of a chapter in Clarke's A Fall of Moondust when the public was invited to suggests ways to rescue the trapped craft.
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Old 26th March 2021, 02:22 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
If they're looking for joke answers, I've already posted two different ones in this thread. (1. Dump laxative/stool softener into the canal. 2. Let some air out of the tires.)

Here's one that would take longer than unloading the cargo. Dam off the section the ship is in with sand berms, then dump thousands of tons of salt into that section, increasing the density of the water to float the ship higher. Align the ship correctly, then dig/dredge out the sand dams.

This one might work, technically: Hire two fully laden ships the size of Ever Given. Steam them into the canal in reverse, one from each end so their sterns are toward the Ever Given. Once they're in position at equal distance from the Ever Given, have them accelerate to flank speed (still in reverse). They'll push water ahead of them, and when they all converge, the Ever Given will float. For a moment.
Why do I have visions now of the 'Gridlock - Great American Traffic Jam'?
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Old 26th March 2021, 02:30 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Unfortunately not. The sea level at both ends of the Canal is only negligibly different, so the Suez has no locks whatsoever that could allow water levels to be raised or lowered.
I did a search on Suez Canal memes yesterday and found a site that argued that, given that the curvature of the Earth results in a significant deviation from flatness along the length of the canal, there should be locks, and their absence proves that the Earth is actually flat. Give me strength....

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Old 26th March 2021, 02:51 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There's a form and everything. I'm sure you have some good ideas.
Have they considered simply blowing the damn thing up? They can get the people off first, obviously. I'm thinking that where human technology isn't up to massive quick safe earth-moving and such, we're really quite advanced at massive quick explosions. Either blow up the ship and fish the pieces out, or blow up the earth along the canal. Also explosions are cool, that cannot be denied.
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Old 26th March 2021, 04:07 AM   #125
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Interesting article on the mechanics via FT. Paywalled/registration for a few free articles enforced by javascript
https://www.ft.com/content/171c92ec-...b-81ee2620d3c1
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Old 26th March 2021, 04:24 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Still, it's pretty amazing that running from the Med, all the way around Africa, and back to the Indian Ocean only takes 8 days. What an age we live in!
Average speed of a freighter is around 10kt.
Reefers and container ships are faster, they make around 15kt
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Old 26th March 2021, 04:29 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Hang tight in the hopes that it will be cleared, or take the 8 day hit by diverting around the Horn.

This is not a decision I would wish to be placed in front of me.
How long?

If they are stuck at South Suez it will take them a lot longer than that to get to the Med.

A Tanker only makes around 10kt. It will take them at least 8 days to get to Cape Horn, then they have to come right up the west coast of Africa.

http://ports.com/sea-route/suez-port...,south-africa/
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Old 26th March 2021, 04:34 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Average speed of a freighter is around 10kt.
Reefers and container ships are faster, they make around 15kt
An acquaintance of ours, who works in the Rotterdam docks, said that the freighters usually run only at half speed to conserve fuel and costs.
So it seems there should be some ability to make up some of the lost time.
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Old 26th March 2021, 04:35 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Looking at the photo I wonder if it's feasible to blast the bow area with high pressure hoses?? (like the fire hoses they already use, but turned up to 11)
Suck out the dislodged dirt. Rinse and repeat.

It would be rather easy to do so there must be a reason why it doesn,t work. (I'm sure someone here knows!)
There will be suction dredgers on the canal, they can trail their hoses and remove material from around and under the ship.
They may need to bring in something bigger though from a specialist dredging firm.
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Old 26th March 2021, 05:10 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How long?

If they are stuck at South Suez it will take them a lot longer than that to get to the Med.

A Tanker only makes around 10kt. It will take them at least 8 days to get to Cape Horn, then they have to come right up the west coast of Africa.

http://ports.com/sea-route/suez-port...,south-africa/
They could reduce their travel time by chopping a new canal running east-to-west through Africa between Tanzania and Angola. If they equipped the first ship with sufficiently powerful lasers it could burn the path through for the following ships. It could be done in a matter of days! Really, I'm embarrassed for everybody else that nobody's thought of this before.
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Old 26th March 2021, 05:36 AM   #131
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"Did Cargo Ship ‘Draw’ a Penis Before Getting Stuck in Suez Canal?"

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ca...r-given-penis/
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Old 26th March 2021, 05:47 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
"Did Cargo Ship ‘Draw’ a Penis Before Getting Stuck in Suez Canal?"

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ca...r-given-penis/
Make a person wonder what goes on in the minds of the types of people who would notice that.
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Old 26th March 2021, 06:04 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
"Did Cargo Ship ‘Draw’ a Penis Before Getting Stuck in Suez Canal?"

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ca...r-given-penis/

Good grief. Nowhere in that "factcheck" article does it mention the actual reason why a path such as this was described by the ship*.

The reason is this: ships frequently (in fact, more often than not) have to wait their turn before being permitted to enter and use the canal.

Now, one possible way to do this would be for the ship to slow itself to a crawl or a full stop well ahead of time, and perhaps drop anchor until it gets given the go-ahead. But this approach has two very major drawbacks: firstly, any ship slowing down to this degree on the high seas puts itself at risk of weather-related drift or even collision with other vessels. And secondly, the fuel costs associated with accelerating the huge mass of a fully-laden container ship from low (or no) speed to even canal speed are unacceptably high - given that another solution can be adopted.

And that other solution is to do something very similar to what aircraft do when they have to hold before being given permission to land: they go into a holding pattern which involves travelling in large (pre-determined) circles. For large container ships under load, this is easily the optimal solution. It allows them to maintain a far higher degree of control and manoeuvrability over the ship than if they'd slowed it to a stop or near-stop; and it enables them to keep the ship travelling at canal speed, thereby avoiding the fuel costs associated with accelerating the huge mass up to that speed from a standstill.

So this is precisely what Ever Given was doing up near the neck of the Gulf of Suez, and it's precisely what is shown in that plot map. It's just unfortunate that the relative positions and shapes of the three circles it described somewhat resembles a cock and balls....


* Though fortunately it does at least point out that those manoeuvres were carried out before the ship even entered the canal....
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Old 26th March 2021, 06:07 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
They could reduce their travel time by chopping a new canal running east-to-west through Africa between Tanzania and Angola. If they equipped the first ship with sufficiently powerful lasers it could burn the path through for the following ships. It could be done in a matter of days! Really, I'm embarrassed for everybody else that nobody's thought of this before.


But failing that, surely they could find enough lorries and tractors in Africa to enable them to tow container ships (with wheels attached, obviously) across the continent by road and deposit them back into the water on the west side? This solution wouldn't even require the digging of a new canal.
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Old 26th March 2021, 06:10 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I did a search on Suez Canal memes yesterday and found a site that argued that, given that the curvature of the Earth results in a significant deviation from flatness along the length of the canal, there should be locks, and their absence proves that the Earth is actually flat. Give me strength....

Dave

But they're correct surely: otherwise the water would just drain away from the centre of the canal into the sea at either end.

In other news: thermite planted by the US Government was what caused the Twin Towers to collapse.
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Old 26th March 2021, 06:22 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
But failing that, surely they could find enough lorries and tractors in Africa to enable them to tow container ships (with wheels attached, obviously) across the continent by road and deposit them back into the water on the west side?
That sounds unworkably impractical. I think your ideas need to ferment a little longer in the thinktank, buddy. Try to keep up.

Now, here's another notion: what does Africa have lots of? Goats! That's right, lots of goats. Let's consider how that asset can be leveraged in this situation. Blue sky it, people, no ideas are bad except for that one about towing by road, so just brainstorm. Goats. And also blood diamonds. Lotsa blood diamonds. Could the goats be encrusted with diamonds and then used to cut through the hull? Maybe glue the diamonds to the goats' tongues, then coat the ship in peanut butter and get the goats to slice it up by licking? This is good stuff, but I can't be the only one pulling my weight here. C'mon!
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Old 26th March 2021, 06:31 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
IIRC Mythbusters tested that idea. It wasn't as simple as they thought but was doable and worked after a fashion.
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Old 26th March 2021, 06:31 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
"Did Cargo Ship ‘Draw’ a Penis Before Getting Stuck in Suez Canal?"

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ca...r-given-penis/
Edited by Agatha:  Edited for rule 9

Last edited by Agatha; 26th March 2021 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 26th March 2021, 06:55 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
That sounds unworkably impractical. I think your ideas need to ferment a little longer in the thinktank, buddy. Try to keep up.

Ahh, you're thinking that there wouldn't be enough very large wheels and tyres about the place in Africa for attachment to the container ships, I bet. Well I'm one step ahead of ya: think of all those huge trucks used in the raping of Africa's mineral wealth by neo-colonialists! Just order the huge wheels and tyres to be taken off those trucks for attachment to the container ships - hey presto!



Quote:
Now, here's another notion: what does Africa have lots of? Goats! That's right, lots of goats. Let's consider how that asset can be leveraged in this situation. Blue sky it, people, no ideas are bad except for that one about towing by road, so just brainstorm. Goats. And also blood diamonds. Lotsa blood diamonds. Could the goats be encrusted with diamonds and then used to cut through the hull? Maybe glue the diamonds to the goats' tongues, then coat the ship in peanut butter and get the goats to slice it up by licking? This is good stuff, but I can't be the only one pulling my weight here. C'mon!


Never mind goats! What does Africa also have a lot of? Expendable human labour! Simply superglue the diamonds to the feet of poor black people, tie them all together in a long chain, and get them to do one of their funny dances on the inside of the ship's hull. And any who die of too much dancing? Simply cut them out of the chain and replace with a fresh one.
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Old 26th March 2021, 06:58 AM   #140
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Has anyone tried hitting it with a hammer?

Seriously that photo Sherkeu posted really gives you the idea of the scale of these ships. I’m sure something so big made from metal shouldn’t float!
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Old 26th March 2021, 07:04 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Has anyone tried hitting it with a hammer?

That thought hadn't crossed my mind. And it also prompted me to ask the obvious question (though it's one which - incredibly - I haven't seen reported as having happened yet): has anyone tried turning the ship off and on again?



Quote:
Seriously that photo Sherkeu posted really gives you the idea of the scale of these ships. I’m sure something so big made from metal shouldn’t float!

We should pray every day to the spirit of Archimedes, and his most famous "Eureka!" moment, for the gift of cheap clothes and computer components.
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Old 26th March 2021, 07:31 AM   #142
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One of the things they need to think about is the ship hull twisting, hogging or sagging as it comes free. If it's damaged and the hull compromised it could sink or capsize.
Then they would be in trouble
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Old 26th March 2021, 07:39 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
One of the things they need to think about is the ship hull twisting, hogging or sagging as it comes free. If it's damaged and the hull compromised it could sink or capsize.
Then they would be in trouble


Pah, back to the sober grind of reality.

But yes and yes. Things having got themselves to this point, I'd be extremely surprised* if they didn't want to offload the container freight before attempting to move or refloat the ship. But one cannot magic up suitable mobile container cranes in an instant of course - I'd assume that there must at least be some contingencies, such as mobile cranes, for use in the event of this kind of warp-10 emergency.

If nothing else, I'd have thought a consortium of the major shipping companies might pay for (and man) these sorts of things, given the potentially huge additional costs they would incur (and are currently incurring) in the event of this sort of incident.


* that is, if nautical structural engineers who've examined the hull from inside and out do indeed consider the deformation/damage to be sufficiently significant as to pose enough risk.
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Old 26th March 2021, 07:42 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
If they're looking for joke answers, I've already posted two different ones in this thread. (1. Dump laxative/stool softener into the canal. 2. Let some air out of the tires.)

Here's one that would take longer than unloading the cargo. Dam off the section the ship is in with sand berms, then dump thousands of tons of salt into that section, increasing the density of the water to float the ship higher. Align the ship correctly, then dig/dredge out the sand dams.
As long as you have dammed the canal, just use that as an opportunity to pump the water out of the dammed section, allowing earth-moving equipment better access to get in and dig at it.

On a smaller scale, they might be able to do the same with cofferdams around either end of the ship and dig out those sections - but it might be hard to get a watertight seal where the cofferdams meet the hull.

My guess is that they'll just unload it. I think there are still a few ships around that have their own cranes can load and unload themselves. They are the modern version of tramp steamers that can service small islands and other areas that don't have the big cranes. The St. Helena is one like that, but I think there are others out in the Pacific. I wonder if a few of those tying up adjacent to the stuck ship would be faster than setting up cranes on land?
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Old 26th March 2021, 07:44 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
As long as you have dammed the canal, just use that as an opportunity to pump the water out of the dammed section, allowing earth-moving equipment better access to get in and dig at it.

Yes, I suppose that's a reasonably-good solution.

(Dammed with faint praise)
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Old 26th March 2021, 07:45 AM   #146
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The Seattle Kraken have chosen "The stuck freighter" as their starting Goalie in the NHL Expansion Draft.
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Old 26th March 2021, 07:48 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
As long as you have dammed the canal, just use that as an opportunity to pump the water out of the dammed section, allowing earth-moving equipment better access to get in and dig at it.
And leaving a 200,000 tonne ship designed to be supported more or less evenly along its length, with a reduction of support at either end, supported entirely by its two ends; not an ideal scenario for maintenance of structural integrity. It would make a lot more sense to build deeper dams and pump more water in.

Dave
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Old 26th March 2021, 07:55 AM   #148
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Have they tried reasoning with the ship? Finding out why it's acting out in this way? All effects have some cause, and to really come to grips with the situation we need to find out what brought it to pass in the first place. I'd wager the ship has reasons for what's it doing, and if we just listened to it in a friendly, open manner it would open up and cooperate in bringing this to an healthy, amicable solution. Just don't tell the ship about my idea to blow it up. That's Plan B, but we shouldn't admit it. It might cause further upsetting.
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Old 26th March 2021, 07:56 AM   #149
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I demand we stop this discussion until someone metaphysically proves to me why the freighter not being stuck in the canal is the preferable outcome.

Also prove to me freighters and canals actually exist.
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Old 26th March 2021, 08:05 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I demand we stop this discussion until someone metaphysically proves to me why the freighter not being stuck in the canal is the preferable outcome.

Also prove to me freighters and canals actually exist.
I'm actually quite surprised that nobody seems to have suggested praying for the ship to unstick.

Dave
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Old 26th March 2021, 08:10 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I'm actually quite surprised that nobody seems to have suggested praying for the ship to unstick.

Dave
Won't help. "god" wants it there and put it there in the first place. Who are mere humans to challenge the will of "god"?
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Old 26th March 2021, 08:18 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I did a search on Suez Canal memes yesterday and found a site that argued that, given that the curvature of the Earth results in a significant deviation from flatness along the length of the canal, there should be locks, and their absence proves that the Earth is actually flat. Give me strength....

Dave
As Captain Onthemoon explains, the main problem is the Earth becoming top heavy and risking fiery solar destruction.
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Old 26th March 2021, 08:19 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Have they considered simply blowing the damn thing up? They can get the people off first, obviously. I'm thinking that where human technology isn't up to massive quick safe earth-moving and such, we're really quite advanced at massive quick explosions. Either blow up the ship and fish the pieces out, or blow up the earth along the canal. Also explosions are cool, that cannot be denied.
Hey, I was advocating nuclear destruction days ago, get with the programme.
Hopefully BoJo will step up.
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Old 26th March 2021, 08:23 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
They could reduce their travel time by chopping a new canal running east-to-west through Africa between Tanzania and Angola. If they equipped the first ship with sufficiently powerful lasers it could burn the path through for the following ships. It could be done in a matter of days! Really, I'm embarrassed for everybody else that nobody's thought of this before.
Another use for nuclear weapons, like with Panama II.
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Old 26th March 2021, 08:28 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
One of the things they need to think about is the ship hull twisting, hogging or sagging as it comes free. If it's damaged and the hull compromised it could sink or capsize.
Then they would be in trouble
There would indeed be weeping and gnashing of teeth. And much rubbing of hands by litigators.
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Old 26th March 2021, 08:31 AM   #156
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There are floating cranes and crane ships that can offload the containers.
'Normal' cranes are used at small ports that only get occasional container traffic.
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Old 26th March 2021, 08:33 AM   #157
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The Egyptian government is saying the ship will be freed by the end of the weekend, but I wonder how much of that is just pacification because there doesn't seem to be an actual plan of any kind.
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Old 26th March 2021, 08:35 AM   #158
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Does anyone have a really, really big can of WD40?
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Old 26th March 2021, 08:35 AM   #159
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Some pretty good salvage outfits are involved, they will have a plan.
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Old 26th March 2021, 08:36 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
And leaving a 200,000 tonne ship designed to be supported more or less evenly along its length, with a reduction of support at either end, supported entirely by its two ends; not an ideal scenario for maintenance of structural integrity. It would make a lot more sense to build deeper dams and pump more water in.

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Is that transporter they used for the Satrun V rockets still available?

Just sink that below the middle of the ship.
Build the dams and drain the water from around the ship.
Then jack up the ship so it will hover above the sand and do something lik a hundred point turn (can't do that too quickly obviously), till the ship is in the proper direction.
Breach the dams and Bob is the brother of your father/mother.
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