Vicious Cycle of Damage from Pharma Drugs

Caroline13 · 3rd April 2021, 11:33 AM

I've been there, was in the ER from a pharma anti inflammatory in the 80's and that was my turningpoint...

Pharma has it made, they continue to produce their drugs and the drugs continue to produce side effects, and then a new drug for the side effects and it goes on and on.

I can't help but believe they are EVIL, Profits Before People...

I take a couple otc pain meds, low doses and am very careful as I don't want damage and also take BP meds and no side effects there, perhaps some fatigue but been taking them for years. I tried on my own for a long time to control my BP, but hearing that mantra, The Silent Killer, got me hooked...

I know it's NOT good to live with HBP.

Norman Alexander · 3rd April 2021, 12:52 PM

Having yet ANOTHER shot at Google-marketing, are we?

And I thought you said you don't take "Big Pharma" drugs. And yet here you say you do. All the time. Is the grape seed stuff not actually working for after all?

MRC_Hans · 3rd April 2021, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

I've been there, was in the ER from a pharma anti inflammatory in the 80's and that was my turningpoint...

Pharma has it made, they continue to produce their drugs and the drugs continue to produce side effects, and then a new drug for the side effects and it goes on and on.

I can't help but believe they are EVIL, Profits Before People...

I take a couple otc pain meds, low doses and am very careful as I don't want damage and also take BP meds and no side effects there, perhaps some fatigue but been taking them for years. I tried on my own for a long time to control my BP, but hearing that mantra, The Silent Killer, got me hooked...

I know it's NOT good to live with HBP.

Don't worry. I have been taking blood pressure medication for decades. Works perfectly, no side-effects noticed.

Hans

Caroline13 · 3rd April 2021, 02:31 PM

I believe I've said I take a couple minor pharma meds if it was ever mentioned...but it's true I take 99% supplements. I worked for a long time to NOT take BP drugs...but had to give in and they are fine now that I've been taking them for many yrs.

theprestige · 3rd April 2021, 04:03 PM

My cat died recently. Old age, pretty much. But it manifested itself as a couple different things. One thing dehydration. She wasn't retaining enough water. So we had her on a med to help her retain more water. Then, the next thing that happened was her chest cavity started filling with fluid, slowly suffocating her. The vet could prescribe something to mitigate that... but then she'd be back to dehydration and imminent kidney failure. (The vet could also have tapped her chest cavity and drained the fluid, but that's a temporary fix.) In the end, we made the difficult choice, but I believe the correct one.

Caroline, of course, would blame it all on the evil pharma companies and their medicines with side effects.

Meanwhile, I'm wondering, how can you possibly get low blood pressure *without* side effects? Make your heart pump less forcefully? There's a trade-off you might not want to consider! Make your blood more thin? Good for blood pressure, bad for open wounds. Just have less blood?

Medicines aren't magic. The machinery of the body can't be ignored. Tinkering with one thing necessarily has side effects.

Caroline13 · 3rd April 2021, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

My cat died recently. Old age, pretty much. But it manifested itself as a couple different things. One thing dehydration. She wasn't retaining enough water. So we had her on a med to help her retain more water. Then, the next thing that happened was her chest cavity started filling with fluid, slowly suffocating her. The vet could prescribe something to mitigate that... but then she'd be back to dehydration and imminent kidney failure. (The vet could also have tapped her chest cavity and drained the fluid, but that's a temporary fix.) In the end, we made the difficult choice, but I believe the correct one.

Caroline, of course, would blame it all on the evil pharma companies and their medicines with side effects.

Meanwhile, I'm wondering, how can you possibly get low blood pressure *without* side effects? Make your heart pump less forcefully? There's a trade-off you might not want to consider! Make your blood more thin? Good for blood pressure, bad for open wounds. Just have less blood?

Medicines aren't magic. The machinery of the body can't be ignored. Tinkering with one thing necessarily has side effects.

Oh would I blame pharma for your cat's death??? Good Grief, keep making up cwap.

Ulf Nereng · 3rd April 2021, 07:25 PM

My GP put me on blood pressure meds a few years back and I haven't had any problems with them. She also told me to take vitamin D after testing my blood values and I added a multivitamin on my own for good measure. I got my first vaccine shot the other day, so I'm looking forward to having no worries about covid in a few weeks. Just do what your doctor tells you to. Big Pharma may not be generally trustworthy, but they don't own the doctors, at least not here in Norway.

theprestige · 3rd April 2021, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

Oh would I blame pharma for your cat's death??? Good Grief, keep making up cwap.

Try to keep up with your own arguments. You already blamed pharma for my cat's death. The cat would still be alive today, if greedy pharma could be bothered to produce medicine without side effects. This is your premise, remember?

bruto · 3rd April 2021, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Try to keep up with your own arguments. You already blamed pharma for my cat's death. The cat would still be alive today, if greedy pharma could be bothered to produce medicine without side effects. This is your premise, remember?

Half the premise I think. The other half is to ignore or deny the side effects of the non-big-pharma stuff. Like the possible effect of DHEA on blood pressure.

shemp · 3rd April 2021, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

I've been there, was in the ER from a pharma anti inflammatory in the 80's and that was my turningpoint...

Pharma has it made, they continue to produce their drugs and the drugs continue to produce side effects, and then a new drug for the side effects and it goes on and on.

I can't help but believe they are EVIL, Profits Before People...

I take a couple otc pain meds, low doses and am very careful as I don't want damage and also take BP meds and no side effects there, perhaps some fatigue but been taking them for years. I tried on my own for a long time to control my BP, but hearing that mantra, The Silent Killer, got me hooked...

I know it's NOT good to live with HBP.

It's amazing how you bring together so many people who regularly argue with each other on other forums, into agreement with each other in your threads. You are indeed a unifying force!

angrysoba · 3rd April 2021, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

I believe I've said I take a couple minor pharma meds if it was ever mentioned...but it's true I take 99% supplements. I worked for a long time to NOT take BP drugs...but had to give in and they are fine now that I've been taking them for many yrs.

Supplements!?!?!?!? Supplements?!!??!

What the bloody buggery bollocks do you think supplements are?

Supplements are just a category of things you ingest that have been designed to circumvent safety and efficacy regulations that are imposed on food and drugs.

So, they can make vague claims about what they do, and they don't have to be vetted in the same way that "Big Pharma" does to check if there is anything valuable to them.

Quote:

I can't help but believe they are EVIL, Profits Before People...

What the hell do you think supplement makers are making their supplements for? Do you think they are driven by altruism, or, hmmmm.... let me think....money?!?!?

The vast majority of supplements are worthless if you are eating a proper diet and unless you have some deficiency that has been diagnosed by a doctor.

Caroline13 · 3rd April 2021, 09:28 PM

No they are making them to HELP people get off the frigging toxic pharma drugs and YES let them make a good living, poor poverty stricken pharma right?

angrysoba · 3rd April 2021, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

No they are making them to HELP people.....

The Common Potato · 3rd April 2021, 10:12 PM

Farmer, noun, a man, outstanding in his own field

Big pharma, a tall farmer

gabeygoat · 3rd April 2021, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

I believe I've said I take a couple minor pharma meds if it was ever mentioned...but it's true I take 99% supplements. I worked for a long time to NOT take BP drugs...but had to give in and they are fine now that I've been taking them for many yrs.

What makes them “Minor?”

Norman Alexander · 3rd April 2021, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

No they are making them to HELP people ~~get off the frigging toxic pharma drugs~~ send them heaps of money just like Big Pharma but without all that testing and quality control or even having tp prove they do anything. In other words, they empty the wallets of stupid, gullible idiots into their bank accounts. A scam.

I'm surprised you can't see this. Unless you are part of the scam, of course.

Puppycow · 3rd April 2021, 10:33 PM

What sort of supplements though?

Vitamins? Those aren't woo-woo, although you may not need to supplement most of them if you eat a healthy diet. And they are certainly not a panacea for preventing disease. Herbal supplements though are mostly bunk as far as I can see. Just a way to make money by selling you something you don't actually need.

Norman Alexander · 3rd April 2021, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

What sort of supplements though?

Vitamins? Those aren't woo-woo, although you may not need to supplement most of them if you eat a healthy diet. And they are certainly not a panacea for preventing disease. Herbal supplements though are mostly bunk as far as I can see. Just a way to make money by selling you something you don't actually need.

"Herbal supplements" are what they do with stale leftover condiments that are no longer worth using on pizza, pasta or other takeaway food. In essence, it's dried plant dust.

smartcooky · 3rd April 2021, 11:01 PM

More utter bollocks from our resident woo woo peddler

smartcooky · 3rd April 2021, 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Try to keep up with your own arguments. You already blamed pharma for my cat's death. The cat would still be alive today, if greedy pharma could be bothered to produce medicine without side effects. This is your premise, remember?

BOOM!!!

smartcooky · 3rd April 2021, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by The Common Potato

Farmer, noun, a man, outstanding in his own field

Big pharma, a tall farmer

Big Pharmaceutical, a tall farmer wearing a shirt, tie, jacket and trousers

JesseCuster · 4th April 2021, 02:20 AM

Originally Posted by gabeygoat

What makes them “Minor?”

She takes them.

dann · 4th April 2021, 03:55 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Meanwhile, I'm wondering, how can you possibly get low blood pressure *without* side effects? Make your heart pump less forcefully? There's a trade-off you might not want to consider! Make your blood more thin? Good for blood pressure, bad for open wounds. Just have less blood?

Seriously?!

Quote:

What causes high blood pressure?

The exact causes of high blood pressure are not known, but several things may play a role, including:

Smoking
Being overweight or obese
Lack of physical activity
Too much salt in the diet
Too much alcohol consumption (more than 1 to 2 drinks per day)
Stress
Older age
Genetics
Family history of high blood pressure
Chronic kidney disease
Adrenal and thyroid disorders
Sleep apnea
Causes of High Blood Pressure (WebMD, Aug. 25, 2019)

Wikipedia mentions that

Quote:

Blood pressure rises with aging when associated with a western diet and lifestyle and the risk of becoming hypertensive in later life is significant.
Hypertension: Causes (Wikipedia)

Avoiding most of those things doesn't require medicine or supplements and has no serious side effects, but most of us would probably think that high blood pressure is preferable to putting an end to old age, for instance.

Carrot Flower King · 4th April 2021, 04:29 AM

Why is this in "Science, Mathematics, Medicine and Technology"?

There's no science, no maths, no technology and a slight hint, just about, but not really, of medicine. More the usual deluded screed about supplements and ignorance of how the supplements industry works and the huuuuuuuuge profits it makes from selling unregulated, untested products...

Carrot Flower King · 4th April 2021, 04:31 AM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

No they are making them to HELP people get off the frigging toxic pharma drugs and YES let them make a good living, poor poverty stricken pharma right?

Oooooooh look!

Self-confessed Big Supp Shill cannot help but carry on shilling.

alfaniner · 4th April 2021, 06:08 AM

Having just had a second hip replacement, I bow to the pharma gods for their creation of oxycodone.

angrysoba · 4th April 2021, 06:22 AM

"if you combine this supplement pill with a calorie deficit diet and exercise you will lose weight."

"Oh man, it totally like works, man!"

Cosmic Yak · 4th April 2021, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

Pharma has it made, they continue to produce their drugs and the drugs continue to produce side effects, and then a new drug for the side effects and it goes on and on.

I suppose it's too much to expect any specific examples?

bruto · 4th April 2021, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

"if you combine this supplement pill with a calorie deficit diet and exercise you will lose weight."

"Oh man, it totally like works, man!"

Protects against tigers too.

casebro · 4th April 2021, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

I suppose it's too much to expect any specific examples?

Beta blockers gave me so much muscle fatigue that the doctors and I thought I had a genetic metabolic problem. 16 years of a diagnostic oddessy. Seems the BB prevent your heart rate increase with exercise. The harder I worked out, the more muscles I killed by ischemia.

Then there is the time I went to the ER with heartburn.They gave me morphine without me asking for pain relief. It shut off my breathing system. They intubated me, and sent me to ICU. Their protocols there led to sleep deprivation and 'ICU Psychosis'. I was heavily sedated and tied to the bed- FOR TWO WEEKS!. Two years ago, still have after effects.

Statins and saturated fats protocols were negated recently by the FACC. (Fellows of theAmerican College of Cardiologists, the REAL professional association.,NOT the AHA Heart Assoc which is sponsored by Big Pharma)Statins are not worth the effort for primary prevention, and saturated fats are NOT a health hazard after all. 50 years to prove BP wrong.

You have to be your own advocate. The FACC may be the experts on heart care, but I am the expert on Casebro.

casebro · 4th April 2021, 07:14 AM

The too, so far as blood pressure treatment goes, my high was 250/170. I figure getting it down to the 150s is a 90% improvement,a B+. NOooo! IT HAS TO BE 140!!!. So they add another med. Guaranteed that it might add a couple weeks to my life, but quality of life made it not worth the trade off.

Do you know that 80% of the people who die of strokes are on blood pressure meds? I'll settle for B+ treatment.

casebro · 4th April 2021, 07:23 AM

By the way, because of hypertensive kidney problems, I can't take OTC NSAIDs. But a couple ounces of candied ginger are working as well as 3g/day of Ibuporofen used to. Zingerol is a COX-2 inhibitor.

MRC_Hans · 4th April 2021, 08:08 AM

There are always difficult cases. There are always some physicians who don't bother to find out what is best for the individual patient.

Guess who we're hearing from in threads like this:

1) The patients who had problems.

or

2) The patients that responded well and had a good improvement in their condition.

Hans

P.J. Denyer · 4th April 2021, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

Don't worry. I have been taking blood pressure medication for decades. Works perfectly, no side-effects noticed.

Hans

Likewise.

P.J. Denyer · 4th April 2021, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by bruto

Protects against tigers too.

*Guarantee not valid in zoos, safari parks, countries with tigers or Las Vegas.

P.J. Denyer · 4th April 2021, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

My cat died recently. Old age, pretty much. But it manifested itself as a couple different things. One thing dehydration. She wasn't retaining enough water. So we had her on a med to help her retain more water. Then, the next thing that happened was her chest cavity started filling with fluid, slowly suffocating her. The vet could prescribe something to mitigate that... but then she'd be back to dehydration and imminent kidney failure. (The vet could also have tapped her chest cavity and drained the fluid, but that's a temporary fix.) In the end, we made the difficult choice, but I believe the correct one.

Caroline, of course, would blame it all on the evil pharma companies and their medicines with side effects.

Meanwhile, I'm wondering, how can you possibly get low blood pressure *without* side effects? Make your heart pump less forcefully? There's a trade-off you might not want to consider! Make your blood more thin? Good for blood pressure, bad for open wounds. Just have less blood?

Medicines aren't magic. The machinery of the body can't be ignored. Tinkering with one thing necessarily has side effects.

My condolences on the loss of your cat.

LondonJohn · 4th April 2021, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Supplements!?!?!?!? Supplements?!!??!

What the bloody buggery bollocks do you think supplements are?

Supplements are just a category of things you ingest that have been designed to circumvent safety and efficacy regulations that are imposed on food and drugs.

So, they can make vague claims about what they do, and they don't have to be vetted in the same way that "Big Pharma" does to check if there is anything valuable to them.

What the hell do you think supplement makers are making their supplements for? Do you think they are driven by altruism, or, hmmmm.... let me think....money?!?!?

The vast majority of supplements are worthless if you are eating a proper diet and unless you have some deficiency that has been diagnosed by a doctor.

Exactly.

It was Sheldon in "The Big Bang Theory" who put it most succinctly (as he saw Penny shopping for multivitamin supplements):

"What you're buying here are the ingredients for very expensive urine"

And his memorable phrase was subsequently borrowed by the Australian Medical Association:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...xpensive-urine

bruto · 4th April 2021, 01:57 PM

I also don't get along well with statins, and gave up very quickly. Got my cholesterol down with diet changes, and a little bit with a change of doctors that resulted in a change of standards, and it's been fine for years. The older I get, the less I worry.

There will always be some differences, and some real outliers like Casebro (such a shame he can't take ibuprofen. It's a magic bullet for me).

And there will always be times when modern medicine fails, or where individual doctors fail, or both. The failures are often dramatic and conspicuous because they stand out.

The question here is whether these inevitable failures mean one should give up the very principles of modern medicine and revert to things whose failure is not so conspicuous and whose success comes only in the form of anecdotes.

smartcooky · 4th April 2021, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

There are always difficult cases. There are always some physicians who don't bother to find out what is best for the individual patient.

Guess who we're hearing from in threads like this:

1) The patients who had problems. i.e. a tiny minority

or

2) The patients that responded well and had a good improvement in their condition. i.e. the vast majority

Hans

Amended that for you!

smartcooky · 4th April 2021, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by bruto

..things whose failure is not so conspicuous and whose success comes only in the form of anecdotes.

... because the makers and purveyors of those things refuse to submit them to be tested properly!

3rd April 2021, 11:33 AM	#1
Caroline13 Muse Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 519	Vicious Cycle of Damage from Pharma Drugs I've been there, was in the ER from a pharma anti inflammatory in the 80's and that was my turningpoint... Pharma has it made, they continue to produce their drugs and the drugs continue to produce side effects, and then a new drug for the side effects and it goes on and on. I can't help but believe they are EVIL, Profits Before People... I take a couple otc pain meds, low doses and am very careful as I don't want damage and also take BP meds and no side effects there, perhaps some fatigue but been taking them for years. I tried on my own for a long time to control my BP, but hearing that mantra, The Silent Killer, got me hooked... I know it's NOT good to live with HBP.
	__________________ Inexpensive Health Insurance = Grape Seed Extract Keep it Simple

3rd April 2021, 12:52 PM	#2
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 9,163	Having yet ANOTHER shot at Google-marketing, are we? And I thought you said you don't take "Big Pharma" drugs. And yet here you say you do. All the time. Is the grape seed stuff not actually working for after all?
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

3rd April 2021, 01:10 PM	#3
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 23,571	Originally Posted by Caroline13 I've been there, was in the ER from a pharma anti inflammatory in the 80's and that was my turningpoint... Pharma has it made, they continue to produce their drugs and the drugs continue to produce side effects, and then a new drug for the side effects and it goes on and on. I can't help but believe they are EVIL, Profits Before People... I take a couple otc pain meds, low doses and am very careful as I don't want damage and also take BP meds and no side effects there, perhaps some fatigue but been taking them for years. I tried on my own for a long time to control my BP, but hearing that mantra, The Silent Killer, got me hooked... I know it's NOT good to live with HBP. Don't worry. I have been taking blood pressure medication for decades. Works perfectly, no side-effects noticed. Hans
	__________________ Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.

3rd April 2021, 02:31 PM	#4
Caroline13 Muse Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 519	I believe I've said I take a couple minor pharma meds if it was ever mentioned...but it's true I take 99% supplements. I worked for a long time to NOT take BP drugs...but had to give in and they are fine now that I've been taking them for many yrs.
	__________________ Inexpensive Health Insurance = Grape Seed Extract Keep it Simple

3rd April 2021, 07:11 PM	#6
Caroline13 Muse Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 519	Originally Posted by theprestige My cat died recently. Old age, pretty much. But it manifested itself as a couple different things. One thing dehydration. She wasn't retaining enough water. So we had her on a med to help her retain more water. Then, the next thing that happened was her chest cavity started filling with fluid, slowly suffocating her. The vet could prescribe something to mitigate that... but then she'd be back to dehydration and imminent kidney failure. (The vet could also have tapped her chest cavity and drained the fluid, but that's a temporary fix.) In the end, we made the difficult choice, but I believe the correct one. Caroline, of course, would blame it all on the evil pharma companies and their medicines with side effects. Meanwhile, I'm wondering, how can you possibly get low blood pressure without side effects? Make your heart pump less forcefully? There's a trade-off you might not want to consider! Make your blood more thin? Good for blood pressure, bad for open wounds. Just have less blood? Medicines aren't magic. The machinery of the body can't be ignored. Tinkering with one thing necessarily has side effects. Oh would I blame pharma for your cat's death??? Good Grief, keep making up cwap.
	__________________ Inexpensive Health Insurance = Grape Seed Extract Keep it Simple

3rd April 2021, 04:03 PM	#5
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,622	My cat died recently. Old age, pretty much. But it manifested itself as a couple different things. One thing dehydration. She wasn't retaining enough water. So we had her on a med to help her retain more water. Then, the next thing that happened was her chest cavity started filling with fluid, slowly suffocating her. The vet could prescribe something to mitigate that... but then she'd be back to dehydration and imminent kidney failure. (The vet could also have tapped her chest cavity and drained the fluid, but that's a temporary fix.) In the end, we made the difficult choice, but I believe the correct one. Caroline, of course, would blame it all on the evil pharma companies and their medicines with side effects. Meanwhile, I'm wondering, how can you possibly get low blood pressure without side effects? Make your heart pump less forcefully? There's a trade-off you might not want to consider! Make your blood more thin? Good for blood pressure, bad for open wounds. Just have less blood? Medicines aren't magic. The machinery of the body can't be ignored. Tinkering with one thing necessarily has side effects.

3rd April 2021, 07:25 PM	#7
Ulf Nereng Muse Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Norway Posts: 600	My GP put me on blood pressure meds a few years back and I haven't had any problems with them. She also told me to take vitamin D after testing my blood values and I added a multivitamin on my own for good measure. I got my first vaccine shot the other day, so I'm looking forward to having no worries about covid in a few weeks. Just do what your doctor tells you to. Big Pharma may not be generally trustworthy, but they don't own the doctors, at least not here in Norway.

3rd April 2021, 07:31 PM	#8
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,622	Originally Posted by Caroline13 Oh would I blame pharma for your cat's death??? Good Grief, keep making up cwap. Try to keep up with your own arguments. You already blamed pharma for my cat's death. The cat would still be alive today, if greedy pharma could be bothered to produce medicine without side effects. This is your premise, remember?

3rd April 2021, 08:25 PM	#9
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 28,220	Originally Posted by theprestige Try to keep up with your own arguments. You already blamed pharma for my cat's death. The cat would still be alive today, if greedy pharma could be bothered to produce medicine without side effects. This is your premise, remember? Half the premise I think. The other half is to ignore or deny the side effects of the non-big-pharma stuff. Like the possible effect of DHEA on blood pressure.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)

3rd April 2021, 08:27 PM	#10
shemp a flimsy character...perfidious and despised Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X Posts: 40,813	Originally Posted by Caroline13 I've been there, was in the ER from a pharma anti inflammatory in the 80's and that was my turningpoint... Pharma has it made, they continue to produce their drugs and the drugs continue to produce side effects, and then a new drug for the side effects and it goes on and on. I can't help but believe they are EVIL, Profits Before People... I take a couple otc pain meds, low doses and am very careful as I don't want damage and also take BP meds and no side effects there, perhaps some fatigue but been taking them for years. I tried on my own for a long time to control my BP, but hearing that mantra, The Silent Killer, got me hooked... I know it's NOT good to live with HBP. It's amazing how you bring together so many people who regularly argue with each other on other forums, into agreement with each other in your threads. You are indeed a unifying force!
	__________________ If being a twat was a TV show, Trump would be the boxed set. "...just as a magnet attracts iron filings, ~~Trump~~ shemp attracts, and is attracted to, louts." - George Will "[shemp is] a most notable coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality." - Shakespeare Last edited by shemp; 3rd April 2021 at 08:29 PM.

3rd April 2021, 08:32 PM	#11
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,608	Originally Posted by Caroline13 I believe I've said I take a couple minor pharma meds if it was ever mentioned...but it's true I take 99% supplements. I worked for a long time to NOT take BP drugs...but had to give in and they are fine now that I've been taking them for many yrs. Supplements!?!?!?!? Supplements?!!??! What the bloody buggery bollocks do you think supplements are? Supplements are just a category of things you ingest that have been designed to circumvent safety and efficacy regulations that are imposed on food and drugs. So, they can make vague claims about what they do, and they don't have to be vetted in the same way that "Big Pharma" does to check if there is anything valuable to them. Quote: I can't help but believe they are EVIL, Profits Before People... What the hell do you think supplement makers are making their supplements for? Do you think they are driven by altruism, or, hmmmm.... let me think....money?!?!? The vast majority of supplements are worthless if you are eating a proper diet and unless you have some deficiency that has been diagnosed by a doctor.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

3rd April 2021, 09:28 PM	#12
Caroline13 Muse Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 519	No they are making them to HELP people get off the frigging toxic pharma drugs and YES let them make a good living, poor poverty stricken pharma right?
	__________________ Inexpensive Health Insurance = Grape Seed Extract Keep it Simple

3rd April 2021, 10:02 PM	#13
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,608	Originally Posted by Caroline13 No they are making them to HELP people.....
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

3rd April 2021, 10:12 PM	#14
The Common Potato Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: The Scunthorpe Problem Posts: 410	Farmer, noun, a man, outstanding in his own field Big pharma, a tall farmer

3rd April 2021, 10:13 PM	#15
gabeygoat Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hard Corvallis Oregon Posts: 1,316	Originally Posted by Caroline13 I believe I've said I take a couple minor pharma meds if it was ever mentioned...but it's true I take 99% supplements. I worked for a long time to NOT take BP drugs...but had to give in and they are fine now that I've been taking them for many yrs. What makes them “Minor?”
	__________________ "May I interest you in some coconut milk?" ~Akhenaten Wallabe Esq

3rd April 2021, 10:29 PM	#16
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 9,163	Originally Posted by Caroline13 No they are making them to HELP people ~~get off the frigging toxic pharma drugs~~ send them heaps of money just like Big Pharma but without all that testing and quality control or even having tp prove they do anything. In other words, they empty the wallets of stupid, gullible idiots into their bank accounts. A scam. I'm surprised you can't see this. Unless you are part of the scam, of course.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

3rd April 2021, 10:33 PM	#17
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Yokohama, Japan Posts: 25,877	What sort of supplements though? Vitamins? Those aren't woo-woo, although you may not need to supplement most of them if you eat a healthy diet. And they are certainly not a panacea for preventing disease. Herbal supplements though are mostly bunk as far as I can see. Just a way to make money by selling you something you don't actually need.
	__________________ A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare

3rd April 2021, 10:38 PM	#18
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 9,163	Originally Posted by Puppycow What sort of supplements though? Vitamins? Those aren't woo-woo, although you may not need to supplement most of them if you eat a healthy diet. And they are certainly not a panacea for preventing disease. Herbal supplements though are mostly bunk as far as I can see. Just a way to make money by selling you something you don't actually need. "Herbal supplements" are what they do with stale leftover condiments that are no longer worth using on pizza, pasta or other takeaway food. In essence, it's dried plant dust.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

3rd April 2021, 11:01 PM	#19
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 17,187	More utter bollocks from our resident woo woo peddler
	__________________ I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! ! Last edited by smartcooky; 3rd April 2021 at 11:02 PM.

3rd April 2021, 11:06 PM	#20
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 17,187	Originally Posted by theprestige Try to keep up with your own arguments. You already blamed pharma for my cat's death. The cat would still be alive today, if greedy pharma could be bothered to produce medicine without side effects. This is your premise, remember? BOOM!!!
	__________________ I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

3rd April 2021, 11:17 PM	#21
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 17,187	Originally Posted by The Common Potato Farmer, noun, a man, outstanding in his own field Big pharma, a tall farmer Big Pharmaceutical, a tall farmer wearing a shirt, tie, jacket and trousers
	__________________ I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

4th April 2021, 02:20 AM	#22
JesseCuster Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 1,238	Originally Posted by gabeygoat What makes them “Minor?” She takes them.

4th April 2021, 03:55 AM	#23
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,924	Originally Posted by theprestige Meanwhile, I'm wondering, how can you possibly get low blood pressure without side effects? Make your heart pump less forcefully? There's a trade-off you might not want to consider! Make your blood more thin? Good for blood pressure, bad for open wounds. Just have less blood? Seriously?! Quote: What causes high blood pressure? The exact causes of high blood pressure are not known, but several things may play a role, including: Smoking Being overweight or obese Lack of physical activity Too much salt in the diet Too much alcohol consumption (more than 1 to 2 drinks per day) Stress Older age Genetics Family history of high blood pressure Chronic kidney disease Adrenal and thyroid disorders Sleep apnea Causes of High Blood Pressure (WebMD, Aug. 25, 2019) Wikipedia mentions that Quote: Blood pressure rises with aging when associated with a western diet and lifestyle and the risk of becoming hypertensive in later life is significant. Hypertension: Causes (Wikipedia) Avoiding most of those things doesn't require medicine or supplements and has no serious side effects, but most of us would probably think that high blood pressure is preferable to putting an end to old age, for instance.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

4th April 2021, 04:29 AM	#24
Carrot Flower King Muse Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 904	Why is this in "Science, Mathematics, Medicine and Technology"? There's no science, no maths, no technology and a slight hint, just about, but not really, of medicine. More the usual deluded screed about supplements and ignorance of how the supplements industry works and the huuuuuuuuge profits it makes from selling unregulated, untested products...

4th April 2021, 04:31 AM	#25
Carrot Flower King Muse Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 904	Originally Posted by Caroline13 No they are making them to HELP people get off the frigging toxic pharma drugs and YES let them make a good living, poor poverty stricken pharma right? Oooooooh look! Self-confessed Big Supp Shill cannot help but carry on shilling.

4th April 2021, 06:08 AM	#26
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 25,059	Having just had a second hip replacement, I bow to the pharma gods for their creation of oxycodone.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

4th April 2021, 06:22 AM	#27
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,608	"if you combine this supplement pill with a calorie deficit diet and exercise you will lose weight." "Oh man, it totally like works, man!"
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

4th April 2021, 06:29 AM	#28
Cosmic Yak Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand. Posts: 4,010	Originally Posted by Caroline13 Pharma has it made, they continue to produce their drugs and the drugs continue to produce side effects, and then a new drug for the side effects and it goes on and on. I suppose it's too much to expect any specific examples? To answer my own question: Yes, it almost certainly is.
	__________________ Fortuna Faveat Fatuis

4th April 2021, 07:04 AM	#29
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 28,220	Originally Posted by angrysoba "if you combine this supplement pill with a calorie deficit diet and exercise you will lose weight." "Oh man, it totally like works, man!" Protects against tigers too.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)

4th April 2021, 07:07 AM	#30
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 18,749	Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak I suppose it's too much to expect any specific examples? To answer my own question: Yes, it almost certainly is. Beta blockers gave me so much muscle fatigue that the doctors and I thought I had a genetic metabolic problem. 16 years of a diagnostic oddessy. Seems the BB prevent your heart rate increase with exercise. The harder I worked out, the more muscles I killed by ischemia. Then there is the time I went to the ER with heartburn.They gave me morphine without me asking for pain relief. It shut off my breathing system. They intubated me, and sent me to ICU. Their protocols there led to sleep deprivation and 'ICU Psychosis'. I was heavily sedated and tied to the bed- FOR TWO WEEKS!. Two years ago, still have after effects. Statins and saturated fats protocols were negated recently by the FACC. (Fellows of theAmerican College of Cardiologists, the REAL professional association.,NOT the AHA Heart Assoc which is sponsored by Big Pharma)Statins are not worth the effort for primary prevention, and saturated fats are NOT a health hazard after all. 50 years to prove BP wrong. You have to be your own advocate. The FACC may be the experts on heart care, but I am the expert on Casebro.
	__________________ Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.

4th April 2021, 07:14 AM	#31
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 18,749	The too, so far as blood pressure treatment goes, my high was 250/170. I figure getting it down to the 150s is a 90% improvement,a B+. NOooo! IT HAS TO BE 140!!!. So they add another med. Guaranteed that it might add a couple weeks to my life, but quality of life made it not worth the trade off. Do you know that 80% of the people who die of strokes are on blood pressure meds? I'll settle for B+ treatment.
	__________________ Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.

4th April 2021, 07:23 AM	#32
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 18,749	By the way, because of hypertensive kidney problems, I can't take OTC NSAIDs. But a couple ounces of candied ginger are working as well as 3g/day of Ibuporofen used to. Zingerol is a COX-2 inhibitor.
	__________________ Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.

4th April 2021, 08:08 AM	#33
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 23,571	There are always difficult cases. There are always some physicians who don't bother to find out what is best for the individual patient. Guess who we're hearing from in threads like this: 1) The patients who had problems. or 2) The patients that responded well and had a good improvement in their condition. Hans
	__________________ Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.

4th April 2021, 11:00 AM	#34
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,997	Originally Posted by MRC_Hans Don't worry. I have been taking blood pressure medication for decades. Works perfectly, no side-effects noticed. Hans Likewise.
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,997	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

4th April 2021, 11:04 AM	#35
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,997	Originally Posted by bruto Protects against tigers too. *Guarantee not valid in zoos, safari parks, countries with tigers or Las Vegas.
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,997	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills