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Old 3rd April 2021, 11:33 AM   #1
Caroline13
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Vicious Cycle of Damage from Pharma Drugs

I've been there, was in the ER from a pharma anti inflammatory in the 80's and that was my turningpoint...

Pharma has it made, they continue to produce their drugs and the drugs continue to produce side effects, and then a new drug for the side effects and it goes on and on.

I can't help but believe they are EVIL, Profits Before People...

I take a couple otc pain meds, low doses and am very careful as I don't want damage and also take BP meds and no side effects there, perhaps some fatigue but been taking them for years. I tried on my own for a long time to control my BP, but hearing that mantra, The Silent Killer, got me hooked...

I know it's NOT good to live with HBP.
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Old 3rd April 2021, 12:52 PM   #2
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Having yet ANOTHER shot at Google-marketing, are we?

And I thought you said you don't take "Big Pharma" drugs. And yet here you say you do. All the time. Is the grape seed stuff not actually working for after all?
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Old 3rd April 2021, 01:10 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
I've been there, was in the ER from a pharma anti inflammatory in the 80's and that was my turningpoint...

Pharma has it made, they continue to produce their drugs and the drugs continue to produce side effects, and then a new drug for the side effects and it goes on and on.

I can't help but believe they are EVIL, Profits Before People...

I take a couple otc pain meds, low doses and am very careful as I don't want damage and also take BP meds and no side effects there, perhaps some fatigue but been taking them for years. I tried on my own for a long time to control my BP, but hearing that mantra, The Silent Killer, got me hooked...

I know it's NOT good to live with HBP.
Don't worry. I have been taking blood pressure medication for decades. Works perfectly, no side-effects noticed.

Hans
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Old 3rd April 2021, 02:31 PM   #4
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I believe I've said I take a couple minor pharma meds if it was ever mentioned...but it's true I take 99% supplements. I worked for a long time to NOT take BP drugs...but had to give in and they are fine now that I've been taking them for many yrs.
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Old 3rd April 2021, 04:03 PM   #5
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My cat died recently. Old age, pretty much. But it manifested itself as a couple different things. One thing dehydration. She wasn't retaining enough water. So we had her on a med to help her retain more water. Then, the next thing that happened was her chest cavity started filling with fluid, slowly suffocating her. The vet could prescribe something to mitigate that... but then she'd be back to dehydration and imminent kidney failure. (The vet could also have tapped her chest cavity and drained the fluid, but that's a temporary fix.) In the end, we made the difficult choice, but I believe the correct one.

Caroline, of course, would blame it all on the evil pharma companies and their medicines with side effects.

Meanwhile, I'm wondering, how can you possibly get low blood pressure *without* side effects? Make your heart pump less forcefully? There's a trade-off you might not want to consider! Make your blood more thin? Good for blood pressure, bad for open wounds. Just have less blood?

Medicines aren't magic. The machinery of the body can't be ignored. Tinkering with one thing necessarily has side effects.
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Old 3rd April 2021, 07:11 PM   #6
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Exclamation

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My cat died recently. Old age, pretty much. But it manifested itself as a couple different things. One thing dehydration. She wasn't retaining enough water. So we had her on a med to help her retain more water. Then, the next thing that happened was her chest cavity started filling with fluid, slowly suffocating her. The vet could prescribe something to mitigate that... but then she'd be back to dehydration and imminent kidney failure. (The vet could also have tapped her chest cavity and drained the fluid, but that's a temporary fix.) In the end, we made the difficult choice, but I believe the correct one.

Caroline, of course, would blame it all on the evil pharma companies and their medicines with side effects.

Meanwhile, I'm wondering, how can you possibly get low blood pressure *without* side effects? Make your heart pump less forcefully? There's a trade-off you might not want to consider! Make your blood more thin? Good for blood pressure, bad for open wounds. Just have less blood?

Medicines aren't magic. The machinery of the body can't be ignored. Tinkering with one thing necessarily has side effects.
Oh would I blame pharma for your cat's death??? Good Grief, keep making up cwap.
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Old 3rd April 2021, 07:25 PM   #7
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My GP put me on blood pressure meds a few years back and I haven't had any problems with them. She also told me to take vitamin D after testing my blood values and I added a multivitamin on my own for good measure. I got my first vaccine shot the other day, so I'm looking forward to having no worries about covid in a few weeks. Just do what your doctor tells you to. Big Pharma may not be generally trustworthy, but they don't own the doctors, at least not here in Norway.
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Old 3rd April 2021, 07:31 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Oh would I blame pharma for your cat's death??? Good Grief, keep making up cwap.
Try to keep up with your own arguments. You already blamed pharma for my cat's death. The cat would still be alive today, if greedy pharma could be bothered to produce medicine without side effects. This is your premise, remember?
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Old 3rd April 2021, 08:25 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Try to keep up with your own arguments. You already blamed pharma for my cat's death. The cat would still be alive today, if greedy pharma could be bothered to produce medicine without side effects. This is your premise, remember?
Half the premise I think. The other half is to ignore or deny the side effects of the non-big-pharma stuff. Like the possible effect of DHEA on blood pressure.
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Old 3rd April 2021, 08:27 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
I've been there, was in the ER from a pharma anti inflammatory in the 80's and that was my turningpoint...

Pharma has it made, they continue to produce their drugs and the drugs continue to produce side effects, and then a new drug for the side effects and it goes on and on.

I can't help but believe they are EVIL, Profits Before People...

I take a couple otc pain meds, low doses and am very careful as I don't want damage and also take BP meds and no side effects there, perhaps some fatigue but been taking them for years. I tried on my own for a long time to control my BP, but hearing that mantra, The Silent Killer, got me hooked...

I know it's NOT good to live with HBP.
It's amazing how you bring together so many people who regularly argue with each other on other forums, into agreement with each other in your threads. You are indeed a unifying force!
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Old 3rd April 2021, 08:32 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
I believe I've said I take a couple minor pharma meds if it was ever mentioned...but it's true I take 99% supplements. I worked for a long time to NOT take BP drugs...but had to give in and they are fine now that I've been taking them for many yrs.
Supplements!?!?!?!? Supplements?!!??!

What the bloody buggery bollocks do you think supplements are?

Supplements are just a category of things you ingest that have been designed to circumvent safety and efficacy regulations that are imposed on food and drugs.

So, they can make vague claims about what they do, and they don't have to be vetted in the same way that "Big Pharma" does to check if there is anything valuable to them.

Quote:
I can't help but believe they are EVIL, Profits Before People...
What the hell do you think supplement makers are making their supplements for? Do you think they are driven by altruism, or, hmmmm.... let me think....money?!?!?

The vast majority of supplements are worthless if you are eating a proper diet and unless you have some deficiency that has been diagnosed by a doctor.
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Old 3rd April 2021, 09:28 PM   #12
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No they are making them to HELP people get off the frigging toxic pharma drugs and YES let them make a good living, poor poverty stricken pharma right?
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Old 3rd April 2021, 10:02 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
No they are making them to HELP people.....




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Old 3rd April 2021, 10:12 PM   #14
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Farmer, noun, a man, outstanding in his own field

Big pharma, a tall farmer
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Old 3rd April 2021, 10:13 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
I believe I've said I take a couple minor pharma meds if it was ever mentioned...but it's true I take 99% supplements. I worked for a long time to NOT take BP drugs...but had to give in and they are fine now that I've been taking them for many yrs.
What makes them “Minor?”
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Old 3rd April 2021, 10:29 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
No they are making them to HELP people get off the frigging toxic pharma drugs send them heaps of money just like Big Pharma but without all that testing and quality control or even having tp prove they do anything. In other words, they empty the wallets of stupid, gullible idiots into their bank accounts. A scam.
I'm surprised you can't see this. Unless you are part of the scam, of course.
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Old 3rd April 2021, 10:33 PM   #17
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What sort of supplements though?

Vitamins? Those aren't woo-woo, although you may not need to supplement most of them if you eat a healthy diet. And they are certainly not a panacea for preventing disease. Herbal supplements though are mostly bunk as far as I can see. Just a way to make money by selling you something you don't actually need.
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Old 3rd April 2021, 10:38 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
What sort of supplements though?

Vitamins? Those aren't woo-woo, although you may not need to supplement most of them if you eat a healthy diet. And they are certainly not a panacea for preventing disease. Herbal supplements though are mostly bunk as far as I can see. Just a way to make money by selling you something you don't actually need.
"Herbal supplements" are what they do with stale leftover condiments that are no longer worth using on pizza, pasta or other takeaway food. In essence, it's dried plant dust.
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Old 3rd April 2021, 11:01 PM   #19
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More utter bollocks from our resident woo woo peddler
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Old 3rd April 2021, 11:06 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Try to keep up with your own arguments. You already blamed pharma for my cat's death. The cat would still be alive today, if greedy pharma could be bothered to produce medicine without side effects. This is your premise, remember?
BOOM!!!
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Old 3rd April 2021, 11:17 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by The Common Potato View Post
Farmer, noun, a man, outstanding in his own field

Big pharma, a tall farmer
Big Pharmaceutical, a tall farmer wearing a shirt, tie, jacket and trousers
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Old 4th April 2021, 02:20 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by gabeygoat View Post
What makes them “Minor?”
She takes them.
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Old 4th April 2021, 03:55 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Meanwhile, I'm wondering, how can you possibly get low blood pressure *without* side effects? Make your heart pump less forcefully? There's a trade-off you might not want to consider! Make your blood more thin? Good for blood pressure, bad for open wounds. Just have less blood?

Seriously?!

Quote:
What causes high blood pressure?

The exact causes of high blood pressure are not known, but several things may play a role, including:

Smoking
Being overweight or obese
Lack of physical activity
Too much salt in the diet
Too much alcohol consumption (more than 1 to 2 drinks per day)
Stress
Older age
Genetics
Family history of high blood pressure
Chronic kidney disease
Adrenal and thyroid disorders
Sleep apnea
Causes of High Blood Pressure (WebMD, Aug. 25, 2019)

Wikipedia mentions that
Quote:
Blood pressure rises with aging when associated with a western diet and lifestyle and the risk of becoming hypertensive in later life is significant.
Hypertension: Causes (Wikipedia)

Avoiding most of those things doesn't require medicine or supplements and has no serious side effects, but most of us would probably think that high blood pressure is preferable to putting an end to old age, for instance.
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Old 4th April 2021, 04:29 AM   #24
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Why is this in "Science, Mathematics, Medicine and Technology"?

There's no science, no maths, no technology and a slight hint, just about, but not really, of medicine. More the usual deluded screed about supplements and ignorance of how the supplements industry works and the huuuuuuuuge profits it makes from selling unregulated, untested products...
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Old 4th April 2021, 04:31 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
No they are making them to HELP people get off the frigging toxic pharma drugs and YES let them make a good living, poor poverty stricken pharma right?
Oooooooh look!

Self-confessed Big Supp Shill cannot help but carry on shilling.
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Old 4th April 2021, 06:08 AM   #26
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Having just had a second hip replacement, I bow to the pharma gods for their creation of oxycodone.
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Old 4th April 2021, 06:22 AM   #27
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"if you combine this supplement pill with a calorie deficit diet and exercise you will lose weight."

"Oh man, it totally like works, man!"
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 4th April 2021, 06:29 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Pharma has it made, they continue to produce their drugs and the drugs continue to produce side effects, and then a new drug for the side effects and it goes on and on.
I suppose it's too much to expect any specific examples?

To answer my own question: Yes, it almost certainly is.
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Old 4th April 2021, 07:04 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
"if you combine this supplement pill with a calorie deficit diet and exercise you will lose weight."

"Oh man, it totally like works, man!"
Protects against tigers too.
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Old 4th April 2021, 07:07 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I suppose it's too much to expect any specific examples?

To answer my own question: Yes, it almost certainly is.
Beta blockers gave me so much muscle fatigue that the doctors and I thought I had a genetic metabolic problem. 16 years of a diagnostic oddessy. Seems the BB prevent your heart rate increase with exercise. The harder I worked out, the more muscles I killed by ischemia.

Then there is the time I went to the ER with heartburn.They gave me morphine without me asking for pain relief. It shut off my breathing system. They intubated me, and sent me to ICU. Their protocols there led to sleep deprivation and 'ICU Psychosis'. I was heavily sedated and tied to the bed- FOR TWO WEEKS!. Two years ago, still have after effects.

Statins and saturated fats protocols were negated recently by the FACC. (Fellows of theAmerican College of Cardiologists, the REAL professional association.,NOT the AHA Heart Assoc which is sponsored by Big Pharma)Statins are not worth the effort for primary prevention, and saturated fats are NOT a health hazard after all. 50 years to prove BP wrong.

You have to be your own advocate. The FACC may be the experts on heart care, but I am the expert on Casebro.
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Old 4th April 2021, 07:14 AM   #31
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The too, so far as blood pressure treatment goes, my high was 250/170. I figure getting it down to the 150s is a 90% improvement,a B+. NOooo! IT HAS TO BE 140!!!. So they add another med. Guaranteed that it might add a couple weeks to my life, but quality of life made it not worth the trade off.

Do you know that 80% of the people who die of strokes are on blood pressure meds? I'll settle for B+ treatment.
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Old 4th April 2021, 07:23 AM   #32
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By the way, because of hypertensive kidney problems, I can't take OTC NSAIDs. But a couple ounces of candied ginger are working as well as 3g/day of Ibuporofen used to. Zingerol is a COX-2 inhibitor.
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Old 4th April 2021, 08:08 AM   #33
MRC_Hans
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There are always difficult cases. There are always some physicians who don't bother to find out what is best for the individual patient.

Guess who we're hearing from in threads like this:

1) The patients who had problems.

or

2) The patients that responded well and had a good improvement in their condition.

Hans
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Old 4th April 2021, 11:00 AM   #34
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Don't worry. I have been taking blood pressure medication for decades. Works perfectly, no side-effects noticed.

Hans
Likewise.
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Old 4th April 2021, 11:04 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Protects against tigers too.
*Guarantee not valid in zoos, safari parks, countries with tigers or Las Vegas.
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Old 4th April 2021, 11:05 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My cat died recently. Old age, pretty much. But it manifested itself as a couple different things. One thing dehydration. She wasn't retaining enough water. So we had her on a med to help her retain more water. Then, the next thing that happened was her chest cavity started filling with fluid, slowly suffocating her. The vet could prescribe something to mitigate that... but then she'd be back to dehydration and imminent kidney failure. (The vet could also have tapped her chest cavity and drained the fluid, but that's a temporary fix.) In the end, we made the difficult choice, but I believe the correct one.

Caroline, of course, would blame it all on the evil pharma companies and their medicines with side effects.

Meanwhile, I'm wondering, how can you possibly get low blood pressure *without* side effects? Make your heart pump less forcefully? There's a trade-off you might not want to consider! Make your blood more thin? Good for blood pressure, bad for open wounds. Just have less blood?

Medicines aren't magic. The machinery of the body can't be ignored. Tinkering with one thing necessarily has side effects.
My condolences on the loss of your cat.
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Old 4th April 2021, 12:10 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Supplements!?!?!?!? Supplements?!!??!

What the bloody buggery bollocks do you think supplements are?

Supplements are just a category of things you ingest that have been designed to circumvent safety and efficacy regulations that are imposed on food and drugs.

So, they can make vague claims about what they do, and they don't have to be vetted in the same way that "Big Pharma" does to check if there is anything valuable to them.



What the hell do you think supplement makers are making their supplements for? Do you think they are driven by altruism, or, hmmmm.... let me think....money?!?!?

The vast majority of supplements are worthless if you are eating a proper diet and unless you have some deficiency that has been diagnosed by a doctor.


Exactly.

It was Sheldon in "The Big Bang Theory" who put it most succinctly (as he saw Penny shopping for multivitamin supplements):

"What you're buying here are the ingredients for very expensive urine"


And his memorable phrase was subsequently borrowed by the Australian Medical Association:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...xpensive-urine
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Old 4th April 2021, 01:57 PM   #38
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I also don't get along well with statins, and gave up very quickly. Got my cholesterol down with diet changes, and a little bit with a change of doctors that resulted in a change of standards, and it's been fine for years. The older I get, the less I worry.

There will always be some differences, and some real outliers like Casebro (such a shame he can't take ibuprofen. It's a magic bullet for me).

And there will always be times when modern medicine fails, or where individual doctors fail, or both. The failures are often dramatic and conspicuous because they stand out.

The question here is whether these inevitable failures mean one should give up the very principles of modern medicine and revert to things whose failure is not so conspicuous and whose success comes only in the form of anecdotes.
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Old 4th April 2021, 02:40 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
There are always difficult cases. There are always some physicians who don't bother to find out what is best for the individual patient.

Guess who we're hearing from in threads like this:

1) The patients who had problems. i.e. a tiny minority

or

2) The patients that responded well and had a good improvement in their condition. i.e. the vast majority

Hans
Amended that for you!
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Old 4th April 2021, 02:43 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
..things whose failure is not so conspicuous and whose success comes only in the form of anecdotes.
... because the makers and purveyors of those things refuse to submit them to be tested properly!
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