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Old 4th April 2021, 07:44 PM   #41
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I have a new rule of thumb: The more subjects that Big Pharma needed to produce a "significant" result, the weaker the actual benefit.The less likely to benefit ME. But I am the one who gets the side effects.

P.S: "significant" does not mean "important" or "valuable", it means "likely to be repeated in a similar study". Statisticians jargon.
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Old 4th April 2021, 07:46 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Exactly.

It was Sheldon in "The Big Bang Theory" who put it most succinctly (as he saw Penny shopping for multivitamin supplements):

"What you're buying here are the ingredients for very expensive urine"


And his memorable phrase was subsequently borrowed by the Australian Medical Association:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...xpensive-urine
That saying goes back to at least the70's. Decades before Sheldon copied it.
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Old 4th April 2021, 07:48 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Don't worry. I have been taking blood pressure medication for decades. Works perfectly, no side-effects noticed.

Hans
Anecdote.

How and why would you think it has done YOU any good?

Seriously, let's get skeptical for a page or two. Once upon a time somebody figured that lowering BP helps prevent strokes. And ever since then a DBPC study is considered un-ethical. It's un-falsifiable, just like so many religious beliefs. Yet 80% of people that die of strokes are on BP meds when the stroke hits.

What does/did the real data look like?

I'm reminded of some recent statin drugs. They dropped cholesterol levels like a rock, but did nothing to prevent deaths. FDA declined certification.

What does/did the real data look like? Some nebulous 2% of people live 26 days longer on BP meds? But the statisticians claim a 30% improvement (statins)

What does/did the real data look like?
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Last edited by casebro; 4th April 2021 at 07:59 PM.
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Old 4th April 2021, 08:29 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
There are always difficult cases. There are always some physicians who don't bother to find out what is best for the individual patient.

Guess who we're hearing from in threads like this:

1) The patients who had problems.

or

2) The patients that responded well and had a good improvement in their condition.

Hans
Both, it seems.
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Old 4th April 2021, 08:32 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Yet 80% of people that die of strokes are on BP meds when the stroke hits.
I get your point, but if most people who are at risk of strokes are given BP meds, then you'd expect that correlation. So that observation doesn't really shift my analysis either way.
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Old 4th April 2021, 11:31 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I have a new rule of thumb: The more subjects that Big Pharma needed to produce a "significant" result, the weaker the actual benefit.The less likely to benefit ME. But I am the one who gets the side effects.

P.S: "significant" does not mean "important" or "valuable", it means "likely to be repeated in a similar study". Statisticians jargon.
Regarding the highlighted, I am pretty sure the opposite is true.

When we talk about things like p-hacking, it is more common that "significant" results occur when there are fewer subjects because anomalies don't get smoothed out by larger numbers.

Usually, you have a preliminary study using few subjects and if the results seem to show a significant finding you have to repeat with a larger sample to prove that the observed effect wasn't a fluke. If the larger sample shows a significant finding, then you can become more confident that the finding is real.

On the other hand, bad science would be, "I tried grandma's snakeoil elixir and it cured me of all that ails me. So that's me and grandma! The effects were shown to work in two different people! That's real significant!"
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Old 5th April 2021, 12:55 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I have a new rule of thumb: The more subjects that Big Pharma needed to produce a "significant" result, the weaker the actual benefit.The less likely to benefit ME. But I am the one who gets the side effects.

P.S: "significant" does not mean "important" or "valuable", it means "likely to be repeated in a similar study". Statisticians jargon.
Doesn't work like that.

Having more subjects in a test population tends to ameliorate effect exaggerations and outliers. It also reveals those as well. For example, with a test population of 10, let's say 2 got out-there results. That's possibly significant to the testing. But if it was a test population of 10000 and those 2 were the only weird ones and the rest were in a "normal" range, sure, we need to know why those two reacted like they did. But we can also say the generally expected effect is not them.
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Old 5th April 2021, 01:26 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Beta blockers gave me so much muscle fatigue that the doctors and I thought I had a genetic metabolic problem. 16 years of a diagnostic oddessy. Seems the BB prevent your heart rate increase with exercise. The harder I worked out, the more muscles I killed by ischemia.
Perhaps you misunderstood my point. I wasn't asking for evidence of side effects from medications: this is a well-known and well-studied phenomenon. What I was asking for was evidence for the 'vicious circle' that Caroline13 described in her OP.
Did your treatment with beta blockers lead you to an ever-increasing dependency on pharmaceuticals to manage the side effects?
Furthermore, is there any evidence that this is a deliberate strategy by the businesses involved?

Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Then there is the time I went to the ER with heartburn.They gave me morphine without me asking for pain relief. It shut off my breathing system. They intubated me, and sent me to ICU. Their protocols there led to sleep deprivation and 'ICU Psychosis'. I was heavily sedated and tied to the bed- FOR TWO WEEKS!. Two years ago, still have after effects.
I'm sorry to hear about this bad experience.
However, it is again tangential. Is there evidence that this was a deliberate business strategy, as opposed to mere incompetence?
I should also add that morphine is not a 'Big Pharma toxic drug': it is a natural plant extract.

Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Statins and saturated fats protocols were negated recently by the FACC. (Fellows of theAmerican College of Cardiologists, the REAL professional association.,NOT the AHA Heart Assoc which is sponsored by Big Pharma)Statins are not worth the effort for primary prevention, and saturated fats are NOT a health hazard after all. 50 years to prove BP wrong.
My search of the FACC website reveals numerous articles recommending the use of statins, and none negating it. Do you have a link for this claim?
For example, from 2018:
Quote:
While the side effects of statins are important to keep in mind, overall, the benefits of lowering LDL with statins far outweigh the low likelihood of an adverse effect for the vast majority of adults at elevated risk for ASCVD. Fear of adverse effects should not prevent a healthcare provider from prescribing a statin.
https://www.acc.org/latest-in-cardio...n-side-effects

It's also worth noting that statins are derived originally from a fungus, so they are also natural and not 'toxic Big Pharma cwap'.
Returning to the OP, is there evidence of more drugs being prescribed to combat the side effects of statins?

Originally Posted by casebro View Post
You have to be your own advocate. The FACC may be the experts on heart care, but I am the expert on Casebro.
Unless you are from one of the many non-human intelligences supposedly sharing the earth with us (lizards, greys etc.), then I would imagine that what affects most humans would also affect you. Everyone is unique, but not so unique that we each require a separate branch of medicine.
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Old 5th April 2021, 02:30 AM   #49
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Ya' know, if you're going to post in the science sub-forum it's considered common decency that you at least make an attempt to use the scientific method.
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Old 5th April 2021, 06:29 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Anecdote.
Do you mind anecdotes?

Quote:
How and why would you think it has done YOU any good?
Well, the medication successfully lowered my BP to acceptable values, helping me to avoid the various long-term effects of hypertension.

Quote:
Seriously, let's get skeptical for a page or two. Once upon a time somebody figured that lowering BP helps prevent strokes.
Observation tells us that people with hypertension are more prone to strokes than people with normal BP. The latter group includes people who have had their BP lowered by medicine.

Quote:
And ever since then a DBPC study is considered un-ethical. It's un-falsifiable, just like so many religious beliefs.
It is not unfalsifiable. It is, however, unethical to let a control group suffer from a condition that is treatable and known to cause morbidity.

Quote:
Yet 80% of people that die of strokes are on BP meds when the stroke hits.
And people who die from car-crashes were in a car at the time of death. Hypertension increases the risk of stroke. Far from all people who take BP meds have their BP fully and effectively regulated, for various reasons, so yes, morbidity and death-rate is higher for the group.


Quote:
I'm reminded of some recent statin drugs. They dropped cholesterol levels like a rock, but did nothing to prevent deaths. FDA declined certification.
I hardly think death rates for high cholesterol would change much during the time of a controlled trial. It is a long-term effect. The drug was probably denied certification for other reasons.

Are you complaining that the FDA stops drugs with insufficient documentation?

Quote:
What does/did the real data look like?
I could as you the same for your claims above.

Quote:
Some nebulous 2% of people live 26 days longer on BP meds? But the statisticians claim a 30% improvement (statins)

What does/did the real data look like?
Here's a bit to start with, but there are tons of it. Hypertension has been intensively studied for decades by now.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24588815/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2828465/

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/JAHA.118.010748

Hans
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Old 5th April 2021, 06:53 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post



My search of the FACC website reveals numerous articles recommending the use of statins, and none negating it. Do you have a link for this claim?
....
The article I recall was that compliance is so poor due to side effects, the actual overall benefit is only 1%. So not worth the bother.

I remember delving into one big study sponsored by a drug company. Big stats were 19,000 subjects over 5 years. BUT on the average, participants were only involved for 2 years each. And at the end of the study there were only 250 subjects in each wing. AND the avg age was "too young to get many heart attacks", um, under 60? 65? And there was a preliminary wash-out period during which they eliminated any subject that had muscle aches. Then claimed very low myopathy rate, and defined muscle problems only as deadly rhabdomyolysis. If a subject wasn't plugging up his kidneys with dead muscle cells, he didn't have muscle side effects.

Much room for bogosityness to creep in to their data mining.
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Old 5th April 2021, 07:33 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
And people who die from car-crashes were in a car at the time of death. Hypertension increases the risk of stroke. Far from all people who take BP meds have their BP fully and effectively regulated, for various reasons, so yes, morbidity and death-rate is higher for the group.
It's the same sampling error that leads to the conclusion that antidepressants lead to suicide. It ignores the fact that antidepressants are often taken by people who are already at higher risk of suicide, and makes the mistake of of comparing them to the population as a whole, when they should be compared to other people suffering depression who aren't on the antidepressants.

Casebro seems to be having a reaction to his BP issues parallel to caroline13's reaction to her hip replacement. Statistically, some are going to be among the minority who don't have the desired outcome. But that doesn't cancel out the improvements that others experience.
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Old 5th April 2021, 07:37 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
The article I recall...

I remember delving into one big study...
If only we had access to those sources.
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Old 5th April 2021, 11:51 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
I believe I've said I take a couple minor pharma meds if it was ever mentioned...but it's true I take 99% supplements. I worked for a long time to NOT take BP drugs...but had to give in and they are fine now that I've been taking them for many yrs.
So what you're saying here is that the supplements didn't work but the meds did.
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Old 5th April 2021, 11:56 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Seriously?!
I lowered my blood pressure like 30 points by decreasing my salt intake and losing weight.
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Old 5th April 2021, 12:09 PM   #56
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My life-span doubled thanks to "Big Pharma". My life would have been much improved had I got the MMR vaccine earlier before I contracted German Measles which left me with mild cerebral palsy and high-functioning Asperger's.

I have severe asthma that has almost killed me twice before I was 20. Without medication I would be thirty years in the ground by now. Being asthmatic restricted my physical activity as a child. Running was a suicidal act. As a result I had weight problems all of my life. Something Health-Nazis seem to demand I apologize for.

In my childhood my doctor was hesitant to give me better medications because he believed the old wive's tale about Asthma being something children grow out of, and it wasn't until I went to a pulmonologist that my mother was told that nobody grows out of severe Asthma. This meant I suffered under Asthma for 10 years unnecessarily because of inept medical practice. The new medicines, including an inhaler, changed my life by allowing me to do more physical activity. My weight dropped and I got outside regularly.

The latest asthma medication is so effective that I can exercise regularly without fear or the need to carry my rescue inhaler.

These inhalers are expensive even with insurance. Maybe this will change with time. The underlying question is what is my life worth? The other question is what kind of quality of life do I prefer? If I stopped taking asthma medications I would limit my daily life choices almost 80% to avoid an attack.

So thank you, AstroZenica for the Symbicort. I have a normal life because of your products.
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Old 5th April 2021, 12:11 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I lowered my blood pressure like 30 points by decreasing my salt intake and losing weight.
10-pound loss equals a 10-point drop in BP. I don't miss salt as much as I thought I would.
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Old 5th April 2021, 05:59 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by threadworm View Post
So what you're saying here is that the supplements didn't work but the meds did.
That's what I said....and boy did I try for months to avoid the BP drugs...
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Old 5th April 2021, 06:01 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
10-pound loss equals a 10-point drop in BP. I don't miss salt as much as I thought I would.
Good for you, our body does need salt and when I eat something with a little more than normal salt, I take some extra potassium to counteract the higher salt intake.
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Old 5th April 2021, 06:09 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
That's what I said....and boy did I try for months to avoid the BP drugs...
Should have taken Lunar Dust. it's the most powerful.
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Old 5th April 2021, 10:27 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
That's what I said....and boy did I try for months to avoid the BP drugs...
It is isn't it. You really should stop being so irresponsible and take better care of yourself.
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Old 6th April 2021, 12:58 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
I believe I've said I take a couple minor pharma meds if it was ever mentioned...but it's true I take 99% supplements.

You’re taking 198 supplements?
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Old 6th April 2021, 01:01 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
The article I recall was that compliance is so poor due to side effects, the actual overall benefit is only 1%. So not worth the bother.
Wait- so you're saying it's not actually the official position of the FACC, you just made that up, and your view is based on your recollection of 'an article', which you are not prepared to name, and that what you remember of that article doesn't say that the drugs are ineffective, but that lots of people aren't taking them so they don't get the benefit of them, and that means the drugs are bad?
Solid science, that. Well done.
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Old 6th April 2021, 01:04 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
That's what I said....and boy did I try for months to avoid the BP drugs...
So you avoided real medicine for months, until you could not escape the conclusion that all of your supplements were not helping at all, and that real medicine was what you needed. Then you took the medicine, and you got better.
What, if anything, have you learned from that experience?

Reminder: You called me a liar, and accused me of having called you a liar. You have yet to support these claims, or to retract them- and an apology would be nice. Still waiting.
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Old 6th April 2021, 01:15 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Good for you, our body does need salt and when I eat something with a little more than normal salt, I take some extra potassium to counteract the higher salt intake.
Here is some more accurate information about sodium/potassium balance in the body, to supplement ( ) Caroline13's rather primitive understanding.
Note that there is absolutely no need to take extra potassium- there are plenty of foodstuffs that have sufficient, and a good balance with sodium.
It should also be noted that the potassium in supplements is often produced by industrial methods, and is not only radioactive, but also highly toxic: it's used in lethal injections.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/stayi...out_of_balance

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potass...thal_injection

Yes, I know it's all about dose and dosage. I'm hoping that, if I use Caroline13's dodgy reasoning against her own arguments, she may see where she's going wrong. Yes, I'm an incurable optimist. One can but try.
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Old 6th April 2021, 02:02 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
So you avoided real medicine for months, until you could not escape the conclusion that all of your supplements were not helping at all, and that real medicine was what you needed. Then you took the medicine, and you got better.
What, if anything, have you learned from that experience?

Reminder: You called me a liar, and accused me of having called you a liar. You have yet to support these claims, or to retract them- and an apology would be nice. Still waiting.
I know right?! It's almost as if despite people's best efforts sometimes they get medical conditions, but medical science has worked out a way of helping when just taking placebos doesn't work.
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Old 6th April 2021, 02:20 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
they are making them to HELP people get off the frigging toxic pharma drugs ...
Can you give us an example of a frigging toxic pharma drug and the supplements which would allow the patient to stop taking it?

It would be even better if you can show us exactly how toxic the pharma treatment is compared to the supplements treatment.
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Old 6th April 2021, 03:38 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
So you avoided real medicine for months, until you could not escape the conclusion that all of your supplements were not helping at all, and that real medicine was what you needed. Then you took the medicine, and you got better.
What, if anything, have you learned from that experience?

Reminder: You called me a liar, and accused me of having called you a liar. You have yet to support these claims, or to retract them- and an apology would be nice. Still waiting.
It's looking as though Caroline13 relies exclusively on supplements the same was a breatharian relies exclusively on air.
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Old 6th April 2021, 04:25 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
No they are making them to HELP people get off the frigging toxic pharma drugs and YES let them make a good living, poor poverty stricken pharma right?
Yes the $40+ BILLION a year (in the US alone) supplements industry is doing it to help people. Yes that's what it is...
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Old 6th April 2021, 06:45 AM   #70
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Potassium supplements are a gateway drug. When you're made sick by salt, you can take potassium pills until you're strong enough to eat a banana.
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Old 6th April 2021, 07:08 AM   #71
Foster Zygote
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Potassium supplements are a gateway drug. When you're made sick by salt, you can take potassium pills until you're strong enough to eat a banana.
Bananas can be deadly. There was once a course offered in England to teach people to defend themselves against an attacker armed with fresh fruit. There were no survivors.
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Old 6th April 2021, 07:22 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I have a new rule of thumb: The more subjects that Big Pharma needed to produce a "significant" result, the weaker the actual benefit.The less likely to benefit ME. But I am the one who gets the side effects.

P.S: "significant" does not mean "important" or "valuable", it means "likely to be repeated in a similar study". Statisticians jargon.
In statistical analysis, repeatability of results in subsequent samples is important and valuable. It means that you're getting results that better reflect the actual distribution in the population being sampled.

It isn't just "Big Pharma" that relies on large sample sizes to assure greater accuracy - it's all of science. While not every subject of study offers the opportunity for a large sample, the larger the sample, the more reliable the result. Any implication that "Big Pharma" is just gathering as many individual results as they can until they get the ones they "want" is just wrong.
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Old 6th April 2021, 07:58 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
In statistical analysis, repeatability of results in subsequent samples is important and valuable. It means that you're getting results that better reflect the actual distribution in the population being sampled.

It isn't just "Big Pharma" that relies on large sample sizes to assure greater accuracy - it's all of science. While not every subject of study offers the opportunity for a large sample, the larger the sample, the more reliable the result. Any implication that "Big Pharma" is just gathering as many individual results as they can until they get the ones they "want" is just wrong.
You can't make the result more "favorable" by a bigger sample. Just more reliable.

"Statistically significant" means that the probability that the result is a fluke is low. It does not mean that the result is necessarily good.

Hans
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Old 6th April 2021, 08:05 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Bananas can be deadly. There was once a course offered in England to teach people to defend themselves against an attacker armed with fresh fruit. There were no survivors.

Among the attackers.

None of them was armed with a point-ed stick, though.
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Old 6th April 2021, 08:10 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Regarding the highlighted, I am pretty sure the opposite is true.

When we talk about things like p-hacking, it is more common that "significant" results occur when there are fewer subjects because anomalies don't get smoothed out by larger numbers.

Usually, you have a preliminary study using few subjects and if the results seem to show a significant finding you have to repeat with a larger sample to prove that the observed effect wasn't a fluke. If the larger sample shows a significant finding, then you can become more confident that the finding is real.

This is why homeopaths love to cite small pilot studies which never seem to be followed up.
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Old 6th April 2021, 09:36 AM   #76
Carrot Flower King
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
No they are making them to HELP people get off the frigging toxic pharma drugs and YES let them make a good living, poor poverty stricken pharma right?
You are Orin Hatch AICMFD.
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Old 6th April 2021, 10:40 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
You are Orin Hatch AICMFD.
Yeah, my state (which Orrin Hatch represented for decades as our senator) is the U.S. capital of fly-by-night supplement companies. They are unequivocally money-making enterprises, with no science to speak of to prove that what they hawk has any beneficial effect. Most are also barely-legal pyramid schemes.

Pharmaceutical companies don't attempt to deceive anyone into thinking they're anything but for-profit companies. Yes, we can -- and should -- still continue to examine their ethics and business practices. But my experience with the supplements industry is that it's exactly, ruthlessly a for-profit industry trying to hide behind a veneer of moral superiority. That, to me, is more dishonest. I would have them regulated just as heavily as pharmaceutical companies, with full transparency on their business practices and legal standards for the testability of their claims.
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Old 6th April 2021, 10:46 AM   #78
Carrot Flower King
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^Yup, I'd agree with all that. Odd how much Big Supp and their shills want to avoid all that class of thing...
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Old 6th April 2021, 12:11 PM   #79
phiwum
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
This is why homeopaths love to cite small pilot studies which never seem to be followed up.
Homeopaths do studies based on homeopathic principles. The sample size is somewhat less than 1/6,000,000,000th of the population
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Old 6th April 2021, 01:05 PM   #80
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I’m impressed.

After all these threads, Caroline13 has still not given us her MLM pitch.
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