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Old 5th April 2021, 08:04 PM   #1
Kaylee
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Trump, the Grift that Keeps on Grifting...

The NYTs broke a story over the weekend about how Trump scammed donors into making recurring donations, plus an extra one internally referred to as the "money bomb."

Quote:
Facing a cash crunch and getting badly outspent by the Democrats, the campaign had begun last September to set up recurring donations by default for online donors, for every week until the election.

Contributors had to wade through a fine-print disclaimer and manually uncheck a box to opt out.

As the election neared, the Trump team made that disclaimer increasingly opaque, an investigation by The New York Times showed. It introduced a second prechecked box, known internally as a ďmoney bomb,Ē that doubled a personís contribution. Eventually its solicitations featured lines of text in bold and capital letters that overwhelmed the opt-out language.

The tactic ensnared scores of unsuspecting Trump loyalists ó retirees, military veterans, nurses and even experienced political operatives. Soon, banks and credit card companies were inundated with fraud complaints from the presidentís own supporters about donations they had not intended to make, sometimes for thousands of dollars.

<skip>

The sheer magnitude of the money involved is staggering for politics. In the final two and a half months of 2020, the Trump campaign, the Republican National Committee and their shared accounts issued more than 530,000 refunds worth $64.3 million to online donors.

<skip>

... for some Trump supporters like Ron Wilson, WinRed is a scam artist. Mr. Wilson, an 87-year-old retiree in Illinois, made a series of small contributions last fall that he thought would add up to about $200; by December, federal records show, WinRed and Mr. Trumpís committees had withdrawn more than 70 separate donations from Mr. Wilson worth roughly $2,300.

ďPredatory!Ē Mr. Wilson said of WinRed. Like multiple other donors interviewed, though, he held Mr. Trump himself blameless, telling The Times, ďIím 100 percent loyal to Donald Trump.Ē



If you don't want to deal with the NYT's paywall, here's a youtube video on the same story:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-o0NAu1L5Y
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Old 5th April 2021, 08:20 PM   #2
Bob001
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Originally Posted by Kaylee View Post
.....
If you don't want to deal with the NYT's paywall, here's a youtube video on the same story:
.....
Same NYT story, picked up elsewhere:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...ns/ar-BB1fgYen
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Old 5th April 2021, 08:29 PM   #3
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But they are STILL loyal to Trump! He rips them off blind and in many cases bankrupts them. And yet they simply won't blame him.

The fault is clearly not just trump, it's something in the education system that raises unquestioning idiots rather than skeptical intelligentsia.
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Old 5th April 2021, 08:45 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
But they are STILL loyal to Trump! He rips them off blind and in many cases bankrupts them. And yet they simply won't blame him.

The fault is clearly not just trump, it's something in the education system that raises unquestioning idiots rather than skeptical intelligentsia.
Reminds me of the people who let themselves be repeatedly fleeced by televangelists.
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Old 5th April 2021, 09:18 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
But they are STILL loyal to Trump! He rips them off blind and in many cases bankrupts them. And yet they simply won't blame him.

The fault is clearly not just trump, it's something in the education system that raises unquestioning idiots rather than skeptical intelligentsia.
Deplorable.
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Old 5th April 2021, 09:36 PM   #6
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We really need a Truth and Reconciliation, just to give these people the opening to say: "like millions of others, I was conned, but now I know better".
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Old 5th April 2021, 09:49 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
But they are STILL loyal to Trump! He rips them off blind and in many cases bankrupts them. And yet they simply won't blame him.

The fault is clearly not just trump, it's something in the education system that raises unquestioning idiots rather than skeptical intelligentsia.
I think I have talked before on one of these thread about my theory that people don't really like Trump the Person, they like Trump the Symbol. Trump symbolizes...something. A culture. A set of values. A philosophy of life. A defense against political correctness. Against having to accept people who are different. Against an imagined Socialist demon.

That's why people who are the party of family values and Southern rural Christian morals can accept a Yankee fast-talking swindler who never goes to church and rips people off with things like a fake university and pays strippers to keep quite about cheating on his wife and spends most of his time calling people childish names on Twitter and lies and cheats and steals.

That is all Trump the Person. Trump the Symbol is a perception of ideological perfection that cannot be altered by Trump the Person. The Person cannot tarnish the Symbol. It MUST be somebody else. It MUST be the Deep State. It MUST be the Evil Socialists. It MUST be Global Pedophiles. It MUST be something other than the Perfect Symbol.

If the Symbol is wrong, that means their beliefs are wrong, which means they are wrong, which means they are bad. They know they aren't bad. Therefore, the Symbol can never be wrong. No matter what.
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Old 5th April 2021, 09:56 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
We really need a Truth and Reconciliation, just to give these people the opening to say: "like millions of others, I was conned, but now I know better".
You don't understand. They will never believe they were conned, let alone admit it.
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Old 5th April 2021, 10:00 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
I think I have talked before on one of these thread about my theory that people don't really like Trump the Person, they like Trump the Symbol. Trump symbolizes...something. A culture. A set of values. A philosophy of life. A defense against political correctness. Against having to accept people who are different. Against an imagined Socialist demon.

That's why people who are the party of family values and Southern rural Christian morals can accept a Yankee fast-talking swindler who never goes to church and rips people off with things like a fake university and pays strippers to keep quite about cheating on his wife and spends most of his time calling people childish names on Twitter and lies and cheats and steals.

That is all Trump the Person. Trump the Symbol is a perception of ideological perfection that cannot be altered by Trump the Person. The Person cannot tarnish the Symbol. It MUST be somebody else. It MUST be the Deep State. It MUST be the Evil Socialists. It MUST be Global Pedophiles. It MUST be something other than the Perfect Symbol.

If the Symbol is wrong, that means their beliefs are wrong, which means they are wrong, which means they are bad. They know they aren't bad. Therefore, the Symbol can never be wrong. No matter what.
They seem to be the sort of people who would have cheerfully left the Apollo 13 astronauts to die slowly on the way to the moon while praying for divine miracles, rather than trying to work outside the box and find real-life solutions. In the olde dayes, they would be praying to wicker men and sacrificing children to increase the harvest. Nothing about them has moved on from there.
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Old 5th April 2021, 10:11 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
But they are STILL loyal to Trump! He rips them off blind and in many cases bankrupts them. And yet they simply won't blame him.

The fault is clearly not just trump, it's something in the education system that raises unquestioning idiots rather than skeptical intelligentsia.
No. It's not the education system. You cannot 'educate' stupid. There's formally uneducated and there's stupid. They are not the same thing. Some of the most 'savvy' people I've known had high school or less educations and can see Trump for what he is and I know people with college degrees who think Trump is great. It's not the level of education but the way the mind works, the psychology of the individual.
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Old 5th April 2021, 10:34 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You don't understand. They will never believe they were conned, let alone admit it.
then the only hope is for their "heirs" to curse them and Trump for eternity.
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Old 5th April 2021, 10:42 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Deplorable.
The whole ******* basket of them.
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Old 5th April 2021, 11:08 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You don't understand. They will never believe they were conned, let alone admit it.
Some wonít. But ******* around with peopleís money is a line for a lot of people
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Old 5th April 2021, 11:40 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
No. It's not the education system. You cannot 'educate' stupid. There's formally uneducated and there's stupid. They are not the same thing. Some of the most 'savvy' people I've known had high school or less educations and can see Trump for what he is and I know people with college degrees who think Trump is great. It's not the level of education but the way the mind works, the psychology of the individual.
We have a couple of those here on this forum! Seemingly well educated, clearly intelligent (at least when you seen them debating topics about science and mathematics) but they just have a total blind spot when it comes to Trump.
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Old 5th April 2021, 11:46 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
I think I have talked before on one of these thread about my theory that people don't really like Trump the Person, they like Trump the Symbol. Trump symbolizes...something. A culture. A set of values. A philosophy of life. A defense against political correctness. Against having to accept people who are different. Against an imagined Socialist demon.

That's why people who are the party of family values and Southern rural Christian morals can accept a Yankee fast-talking swindler who never goes to church and rips people off with things like a fake university and pays strippers to keep quite about cheating on his wife and spends most of his time calling people childish names on Twitter and lies and cheats and steals.

That is all Trump the Person. Trump the Symbol is a perception of ideological perfection that cannot be altered by Trump the Person. The Person cannot tarnish the Symbol. It MUST be somebody else. It MUST be the Deep State. It MUST be the Evil Socialists. It MUST be Global Pedophiles. It MUST be something other than the Perfect Symbol.

If the Symbol is wrong, that means their beliefs are wrong, which means they are wrong, which means they are bad. They know they aren't bad. Therefore, the Symbol can never be wrong. No matter what.
This is exactly what I see with the Trump fans I know personally. They don't like Trump; when I point out out what a venal, immoral, sociopathic, lying POS he is, they go "yeah, but he's better than the alternative." For these people, anything liberals hate is literally a good thing by default.
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Last edited by TheGoldcountry; 5th April 2021 at 11:48 PM.
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Old 6th April 2021, 12:04 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
But they are STILL loyal to Trump! He rips them off blind and in many cases bankrupts them. And yet they simply won't blame him.

The fault is clearly not just trump, it's something in the education system that raises unquestioning idiots rather than skeptical intelligentsia.
This is the problem you guys have. How can you hope to reason with people like this? Give them another Trump-like "messiah" to rally behind and no amount of persuasion will stop them voting for him.
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Old 6th April 2021, 12:06 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
I think I have talked before on one of these thread about my theory that people don't really like Trump the Person, they like Trump the Symbol. Trump symbolizes...something. A culture. A set of values. A philosophy of life. A defense against political correctness. Against having to accept people who are different. Against an imagined Socialist demon.

That's why people who are the party of family values and Southern rural Christian morals can accept a Yankee fast-talking swindler who never goes to church and rips people off with things like a fake university and pays strippers to keep quite about cheating on his wife and spends most of his time calling people childish names on Twitter and lies and cheats and steals.

That is all Trump the Person. Trump the Symbol is a perception of ideological perfection that cannot be altered by Trump the Person. The Person cannot tarnish the Symbol. It MUST be somebody else. It MUST be the Deep State. It MUST be the Evil Socialists. It MUST be Global Pedophiles. It MUST be something other than the Perfect Symbol.

If the Symbol is wrong, that means their beliefs are wrong, which means they are wrong, which means they are bad. They know they aren't bad. Therefore, the Symbol can never be wrong. No matter what.
It's how they justify voting for him. It makes it morally acceptable and relieves them of their responsibility of having voted for a POS.
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Old 6th April 2021, 12:13 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It's how they justify voting for him. It makes it morally acceptable and relieves them of their responsibility of having voted for a POS.
Turn socialism into a synonym for Satanism, present the Antichrist (in this case, Joe Biden, the blandest progeny of Satan I could imagine,) and presto! You have a Holy War, and you just need a messiah.
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Old 6th April 2021, 12:23 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
Turn socialism into a synonym for Satanism, present the Antichrist (in this case, Joe Biden, the blandest progeny of Satan I could imagine,) and presto! You have a Holy War, and you just need a messiah.
You laugh, and I laugh, because that's got to be the funniest but saddest situation to witness.

But why so? Why is it funny? And why is it sad?

It's funny because it is comical that these silly peoples' abject failures to appreciate WHY this is such a silly situation for them to be in makes them look like clowns. It's pratfall in public.

And it's sad because it is frightening that your fellow citizens' abject failures to appreciate WHY this is such a silly situation for them to be in makes them look like clowns. It's pratfall in public.

Depends on your point of view, I guess.
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Old 6th April 2021, 12:45 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It's how they justify voting for him. It makes it morally acceptable and relieves them of their responsibility of having voted for a POS.
I very much disagree. I don't think it is justification. I think it is what they whole heartedly believe. They believe in the Symbol. They believe that it is right.

It is not a justification for something they know is wrong. It is not accepting an alternative to a lesser evil.

It is transforming a person into an ideology. An abstract Symbol. Once that is done, the Person doesn't matter. This is the way it worked for Charles Manson. And Jim Jones. And L. Ron Hubbard.

This also occurs with less dangerous cases like Hunter S. Thompson and many actors and artists who portray a public persona that is different from who they are. As Hunter S. Thompson said, "I'm really in the way as a person and the myth has taken over."

Like Thompson, what "Trump" is changed from a man to myth. A Person to a Symbol. For many, "Trump" meant the Symbol and not the Person.
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Old 6th April 2021, 07:47 AM   #21
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I think itís much more complicated than the explanations that have been presented thus far. Itís easy to dismiss people who support Trump as deplorable, stupid and gullible. Makes it so you donít have to think much about it. And yes, I think those adjectives do describe some Trump supporters, but I donít think it explains how 70+ million people voted for Trump. Devilís Advocate is close to the explanation but even then itís not quite so simple as ďTrump is a cult leader.Ē

I know Trump supporters who are doctors, lawyers, teachers, medical assistants, retail workers- professionals and non-professionals who are actually good people. They are my friends. Almost none of them actually like Trump. What they like is the fact that he is the only candidate that is speaking to the issues they have long been wanting politicians to speak about. Yes, he goes too far. But he wants to control the border, for example. We all know the wall is stupid but these people see the wall as a symbol for an actual policy to control the border. Trump, rightfully, got a lot of crap for his family separation policy and detention of immigrants. However, they see what is happening right now, in our own community as much worse. For them, itís simple: why doesnít Biden get crap for his handling of the situation? They see Trumpís handling as a bit heavy-handed but effective and there arenít many other alternatives right now. Bidenís handling of the situation proves that. What they want, at the end of the day is for there to be controlled immigration -a clear US policy that you canít just walk in here (or throw your kids over a border fence) and get released into our communities.

I think they have a point, but they are short sighted. They also donít want to send money to Mexico and Central America to improve things there so people donít have to run to the US. But Iím not about to call them deplorable or stupid, because itís really not. The people I know arenít all racists; in fact, most of them are from family who immigrated here themselves.

Itís much more nuanced than a simple dismissal. I think we would all do well to stop dismissing the valid concerns people have and try engaging in a dialogue-but I know thatís never going to happen as long as both sides see each other as evil deplorable people.

I do think that the kind of thing detailed in the OP is going to hurt his support amongst people like this. But continuing to dismiss Trump supporters as stupid isnít going to solve anything.
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Old 6th April 2021, 08:37 AM   #22
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Normally, one would expect that after the great 'Trump University' scam that was revealed a few years ago and where Trump had to pay $25 million dollars in claims, that any half-way sensible person would now know NOT to give money to Trump.

However, that is the magic thing about Trump supporters.

Even though many Trump supporters know full well that Trump is nothing but a lying, self-absorbed, POS who does not care about anyone but himself, but these same people will continue to morally and/or financially support Trump all the same.
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Old 6th April 2021, 09:16 AM   #23
Regnad Kcin
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
I think I have talked before on one of these thread about my theory that people don't really like Trump the Person, they like Trump the Symbol. Trump symbolizes...something. A culture. A set of values. A philosophy of life. A defense against political correctness. Against having to accept people who are different. Against an imagined Socialist demon.

That's why people who are the party of family values and Southern rural Christian morals can accept a Yankee fast-talking swindler who never goes to church and rips people off with things like a fake university and pays strippers to keep quite about cheating on his wife and spends most of his time calling people childish names on Twitter and lies and cheats and steals.

That is all Trump the Person. Trump the Symbol is a perception of ideological perfection that cannot be altered by Trump the Person. The Person cannot tarnish the Symbol. It MUST be somebody else. It MUST be the Deep State. It MUST be the Evil Socialists. It MUST be Global Pedophiles. It MUST be something other than the Perfect Symbol.

If the Symbol is wrong, that means their beliefs are wrong, which means they are wrong, which means they are bad. They know they aren't bad. Therefore, the Symbol can never be wrong. No matter what.
I like it.
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Old 6th April 2021, 09:20 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think itís much more complicated than the explanations that have been presented thus far. Itís easy to dismiss people who support Trump as deplorable, stupid and gullible.
...
I know Trump supporters who are doctors, lawyers, teachers, medical assistants, retail workers- professionals and non-professionals who are actually good people.
Yes, there are some otherwise successful people who have supported Trump in the past. Perhaps we need a term, like 'selectively stupid'.

Quote:
Almost none of them actually like Trump. What they like is the fact that he is the only candidate that is speaking to the issues they have long been wanting politicians to speak about.
I've never really liked that explanation about why a Trump supporter is a Trump supporter. (I.e. "I dislike him but I like what he talks about".) Sounds too much like those who say "I'm not a racist, but..." (followed by a bunch of racism).

There are a couple of problems with that argument...

- Sometimes the issues they want politicians to talk about are not really "issues" to a rational person

- Even if Trump is "talking about issues", his policies more often as not make the situation worse.

In many of those cases, just a few minutes of research would have made them recognize the problem with Trump and his policies, but they refused to do so.
Quote:
Yes, he goes too far. But he wants to control the border, for example. We all know the wall is stupid but these people see the wall as a symbol for an actual policy to control the border.
Prime example of what I was talking about.

Was "illegal immigration" a problem under Obama? Not really. Despite Trump talking about "mexico sending their worst", illegal immigrants just aren't a major source of crime in American society. Nor are they "taking our jobs". Yet those "I don't like Trump but like that he talks about the Border" doesn't absolve them of being foolish/racist/etc.
Quote:
Trump, rightfully, got a lot of crap for his family separation policy and detention of immigrants. However, they see what is happening right now, in our own community as much worse. For them, itís simple: why doesnít Biden get crap for his handling of the situation? They see Trumpís handling as a bit heavy-handed but effective and there arenít many other alternatives right now. Bidenís handling of the situation proves that.
Well, no. Biden's handling of the situation NOW doesn't prove that at all.

There are different circumstances in play between 2021 and 2017. Trump was handed an immigration system that sort-of worked and broke it. Biden was handed a broken system and is trying to fix it.
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Old 6th April 2021, 09:30 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think itís much more complicated than the explanations that have been presented thus far. Itís easy to dismiss people who support Trump as deplorable, stupid and gullible. Makes it so you donít have to think much about it. And yes, I think those adjectives do describe some Trump supporters, but I donít think it explains how 70+ million people voted for Trump. Devilís Advocate is close to the explanation but even then itís not quite so simple as ďTrump is a cult leader.Ē

I know Trump supporters who are doctors, lawyers, teachers, medical assistants, retail workers- professionals and non-professionals who are actually good people. They are my friends. Almost none of them actually like Trump. What they like is the fact that he is the only candidate that is speaking to the issues they have long been wanting politicians to speak about. Yes, he goes too far. But he wants to control the border, for example. We all know the wall is stupid but these people see the wall as a symbol for an actual policy to control the border. Trump, rightfully, got a lot of crap for his family separation policy and detention of immigrants. However, they see what is happening right now, in our own community as much worse. For them, itís simple: why doesnít Biden get crap for his handling of the situation? They see Trumpís handling as a bit heavy-handed but effective and there arenít many other alternatives right now. Bidenís handling of the situation proves that. What they want, at the end of the day is for there to be controlled immigration -a clear US policy that you canít just walk in here (or throw your kids over a border fence) and get released into our communities.

I think they have a point, but they are short sighted. They also donít want to send money to Mexico and Central America to improve things there so people donít have to run to the US. But Iím not about to call them deplorable or stupid, because itís really not. The people I know arenít all racists; in fact, most of them are from family who immigrated here themselves.

Itís much more nuanced than a simple dismissal. I think we would all do well to stop dismissing the valid concerns people have and try engaging in a dialogue-but I know thatís never going to happen as long as both sides see each other as evil deplorable people.

I do think that the kind of thing detailed in the OP is going to hurt his support amongst people like this. But continuing to dismiss Trump supporters as stupid isnít going to solve anything.
I'm not seeing much of a distinction between evil, deplorable people and those willing to look the other way while evil deplorable people deliver the results they want.
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Old 6th April 2021, 09:33 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Prime example of what I was talking about.

Was "illegal immigration" a problem under Obama? Not really. Despite Trump talking about "mexico sending their worst", illegal immigrants just aren't a major source of crime in American society. Nor are they "taking our jobs".
The Trumpet concern about immigration has nothing to do with crime or jobs. Those are just rationalizations.

It's based on racism. They like it because he is taking care of the dirty Mexicans. It's not any deeper than that.
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Old 6th April 2021, 09:43 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm not seeing much of a distinction between evil, deplorable people and those willing to look the other way while evil deplorable people deliver the results they want.
Because they don't even get the results they claim to want.

The result they actual value is being told their simple, straightfoward, and wrong solutions are actually right and working. Thinking about things and trying to feel moral and whole at the same time is difficult. That's work that a lot of people want an excuse to not do. It's also work that risks your ego by being open to the possibility of being wrong and admitting you supported harmful, immoral things.

I started writing this trying to defend some Trump supporters against the claim they're just evil and I'm not sure I managed that.

Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
The Trumpet concern about immigration has nothing to do with crime or jobs. Those are just rationalizations.

It's based on racism. They like it because he is taking care of the dirty Mexicans. It's not any deeper than that.
While there is good data that VERY strongly indicates many/most Trump supporters are mainly motivated by racial grievance above all other motivations, that is not the sole case.

Many are just, well, wrong. They think, really, that immigration has a lot to do with those things. They are coming to what they think are rational conclusions based on what they think is correct information. But, garbage in, garbage out.

Also, see above on wanting 'simple explanations'.

EDIT: And that's before the massive elephant in the room that is building a cultural identity around being an elephant in the room (GOP).
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Old 6th April 2021, 10:02 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
Turn socialism into a synonym for Satanism, present the Antichrist (in this case, Joe Biden, the blandest progeny of Satan I could imagine,) and presto! You have a Holy War, and you just need a messiah.
Already happened, except with Obama instead of Biden.
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Old 6th April 2021, 10:16 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Many are just, well, wrong. They think, really, that immigration has a lot to do with those things.
yes, they are wrong. They actually think that their opposition to immigration depends on those things.

It doesn't. Those things are rationalizations to justify their racism.

You want to be worried about over-simplifying things, and I can appreciate the concern. But sometimes, you gotta just look at the obvious. I don't care that "not all are like that." That's pointless. The number that aren't is not significant.

The ones whose anti-immigration beliefs and other beliefs are rooted in racism are the ones who put him in power. Without the racists, Trump doesn't come anywhere close to be elected. Sure, any little thing could have swung the case in 2016, but I'm not talking about that. Without the racists who identify with him, he's not even in the discussion
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Old 6th April 2021, 10:16 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Already happened, except with Obama instead of Biden.
Oh, it's definitely wash, rinse, repeat, which is why I said "in this case."

I honestly think people just like boogeymen to hate, it's much easier than having rational discussions about difficult questions. Just show me who's to blame! Mexicans and blacks? Ok, we have a winner!
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Old 6th April 2021, 10:23 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
I very much disagree. I don't think it is justification. I think it is what they whole heartedly believe. They believe in the Symbol. They believe that it is right.

It is not a justification for something they know is wrong. It is not accepting an alternative to a lesser evil.

It is transforming a person into an ideology. An abstract Symbol. Once that is done, the Person doesn't matter. This is the way it worked for Charles Manson. And Jim Jones. And L. Ron Hubbard.

This also occurs with less dangerous cases like Hunter S. Thompson and many actors and artists who portray a public persona that is different from who they are. As Hunter S. Thompson said, "I'm really in the way as a person and the myth has taken over."

Like Thompson, what "Trump" is changed from a man to myth. A Person to a Symbol. For many, "Trump" meant the Symbol and not the Person.
I think we are both right. Trump supporters are a varied lot and their motivations can be just as varied.
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Old 6th April 2021, 11:03 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Reminds me of the people who let themselves be repeatedly fleeced by televangelists.
It's not a fleece, it's a seed! A seed that'll bloom and bring you blessed beatitude and wealth beyond compare. Meanwhile the televangelist has to live a life of hardships as he tours the globe with his private jet(s). I mean, who really wins, here?
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Old 6th April 2021, 11:10 AM   #33
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Appropos, the story is NYT so I can't access it

https://twitter.com/alanfeuer/status...59000299835401

But the message is, those who stormed the Capitol weren't concerned about economic issues. They were just racist.
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Old 6th April 2021, 11:26 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Reminds me of the people who let themselves be repeatedly fleeced by televangelists.
That was my step-grandfather. My grandmother finally just hid the checkbook.
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Old 6th April 2021, 11:31 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Reminds me of the people who let themselves be repeatedly fleeced by televangelists.
Considering how so many of the greedy, vile, righteous, televangelists supported Trump, then in a weird way it makes sense that there are still so many people who will support Trump.
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Old 6th April 2021, 11:40 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Considering how so many of the greedy, vile, righteous, televangelists supported Trump, then in a weird way it makes sense that there are still so many people who will support Trump.
Michael Cohen wrote in his book that after Trump met with the Evangelical Christian leaders to garner their support for his presidential run, he said "Can you believe people believe that ************?"
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Old 6th April 2021, 11:54 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Itís much more nuanced than a simple dismissal. I think we would all do well to stop dismissing the valid concerns people have and try engaging in a dialogue-but I know thatís never going to happen as long as both sides see each other as evil deplorable people.


See, the problem is, in the vast majority of cases, they don't have a valid concern, and whenever we try to engage in a dialogue, they just can't seem to wrap their heads around the fact that their concerns largely aren't "valid", but are instead simply mouthing the platitudes that have been fed to them by the likes of Fox News to manipulate them into supporting things they'd otherwise oppose.

Others above have talked about the issues with the "southern border crisis", but you can see the same thing a few years ago, when it was the "Syrian Refugee crisis". They spent months whining about how "We don't know who these people are!" and making the same claims about them being "released into our communities" like some kind of invasive species.

The problem is, that was all BS. The Syrian refugees who were coming to North America (I had the same arguments with right-wing idiots here in Canada) were some of the most heavily-vetted immigrants in the world. It wasn't just "Hop on a boat and go to America!", but those people who claimed to be the most concerned about the issue actually knew virtually nothing about it. And you couldn't even explain that to them, because they simply rejected any information that was contrary to the platitudes they'd been taught to spout.

And you could probably spend hours listing the issues in which their "valid concerns" just aren't that. Voter fraud, socialism, Black Lives Matter, minimum wage, green new deal, you name it. Their concerns are almost entirely based on disinformation, or are just knowing lies.
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Old 6th April 2021, 12:01 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
The Trumpet concern about immigration has nothing to do with crime or jobs. Those are just rationalizations.

It's based on racism. They like it because he is taking care of the dirty Mexicans. It's not any deeper than that.

Funny how the Trump supporters in my neck of the woods are Mexican-Americans whose grandparents or parents immigrated here.

Itís way more nuanced than the simplistic ďtheyíre racists!Ē narrative.

For example, there are people who have been trying to get their families immigrated legally, for years. Illegal immigrants are jumping the line in their view, committing a crime and being rewarded for it, while their families suffer trying to do the right thing. They are sympathetic to their plight and racism has nothing to do with their desire for better border control and immigration reform.

Still others see the issues caused by the influx of immigrants right here in our community. All those detention centers you see on the news? Thatís my city and others close by. This isnít an abstract issue for us. We are the front lines for the cartels and their drug and human trafficking. People here want action on border security.

Look at another issue: healthcare. Many doctors donít like the ACA and the prospect of single-payer. That one issue is enough to throw their support behind anyone the GOP runs.

We are also a heavily religious area. Getting anti-abortion SCOTUS justices is a big issue.

So yeah, you can keep lumping these people into the deplorable basket. I get it, it makes it easy to dismiss them. I just think a better approach is to actually listen to them and see where there is common ground or, at least, that maybe they have some valid concerns. They arenít all racist and lost causes.
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Old 6th April 2021, 12:12 PM   #39
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Trump is a Populist, and intelligent people shouldn't fall for that.
If they dislike Trump but supported him anyways, it was because they think they will gain personally - at the expense of others.
No actually informed person should have been able to make themselves believe that Trump would be a better President than Clinton.
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Old 6th April 2021, 12:16 PM   #40
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Trump is paid on The Apprentice to judge other people's money making ability but when did he last come up with an idea of his own that made money? Bankrupted a few times and his business businesses losing money hand over fist
The anti-midas is undoubtedly blameless in this
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