IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 19th September 2021, 01:19 PM   #41
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,870
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
But this isn't just any normal 'success or failure'. It's innocent people being murdered by a military who sees the enemy everywhere, doesn't do enough to prevent 'mistakes', and suffers no consequence for them.

The public does need to know about incidents like this, otherwise they will continue getting away with it. Remember the Mỹ Lai massacre? I bet you think the public didn't need to know about that either, right? Well we did find out, but the shame didn't stop there,



And here we are in 2021, still killing innocents without consequence, and still having to put up with apologists like you who want to sweep it under the rug. When will it stop?

I can't tell if we are talking about the US military or police. Seems like a pattern, eh?
__________________
Stop feeding the trolls PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 01:35 PM   #42
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,254
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
This thread is transitioning from tragedy, to tragicomedy.
Another convincing rebuttal!
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th September 2021, 12:18 AM   #43
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 14,198
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The Taliban could certainly have stopped the car and checked it out as they had control of the area the car was in. It's a completely reasonable suggestion as our military had the car under observation for quite some time and were in communication with the Taliban. They would have been able to request stopping and checking the car out.
It's also possible that the intel about a white Toyota was reliable, but the U.S. just fixed on the wrong one. So in addition to killing 10 innocent people, a bomb could still have gotten through. As I think about it, working with the Taliban might have been exactly the right choice.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th September 2021, 07:47 AM   #44
Fast Eddie B
Philosopher
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 7,033
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It's also possible that the intel about a white Toyota was reliable, but the U.S. just fixed on the wrong one.
Decades ago, I read a book called “Sword of Gideon”. It was about Israel’s retribution against those who perpetrated the slayings of Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics. I think it was the inspiration for the movie “Munich”.

It comes to mind, because the agents involved were tasked to be 100% sure their targets were correct, and that no innocent even if it meant putting them at far higher risk themselves. “Wrong Toyota” was simply not an option.

I think this tragic incidence was the result of not enough safeguards in place. Hopefully we’ll learn something from it, though I’m not hopeful.
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th September 2021, 08:00 AM   #45
RolandRat
Graduate Poster
 
RolandRat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,361
Has anyone actually been held accountable? You know, arrested and charged with murder?
RolandRat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th September 2021, 08:06 AM   #46
autumn1971
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,563
Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Has anyone actually been held accountable? You know, arrested and charged with murder?
If there was it would be the kid who followed what they believed was a lawful order.
Officers who order murders are rarely prosecuted.
__________________
'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."'
-The Bard
autumn1971 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th September 2021, 08:18 AM   #47
dirtywick
Illuminator
 
dirtywick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,002
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
But this isn't just any normal 'success or failure'. It's innocent people being murdered by a military who sees the enemy everywhere, doesn't do enough to prevent 'mistakes', and suffers no consequence for them.

The public does need to know about incidents like this, otherwise they will continue getting away with it. Remember the Mỹ Lai massacre? I bet you think the public didn't need to know about that either, right? Well we did find out, but the shame didn't stop there,



And here we are in 2021, still killing innocents without consequence, and still having to put up with apologists like you who want to sweep it under the rug. When will it stop?
I know there’s been a bit of back and forth on this but I think you guys are forgetting that this was in retaliation for the air port suicide bombing. They didn’t have an option to try and hide it
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th September 2021, 08:18 AM   #48
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,497
It's absolutely bewildering to see this story, and the earlier story of the 13 US military personnel killed by the suicide bomb attack, as some sort of novel event in this 20 year old war. It's strange to see them painted as something scandalous rather that what it really is, which is simply more of the same in our endless occupation of Afghanistan.

It's like our whole society has amnesia and has no memory of the realities of this military adventure, so we have to learn it all over again and be shocked at the brutality and senselessness.

I guess the public lost interest over these last two decades, but all the old fans are tuning back in for the grand finale.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 20th September 2021 at 08:30 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th September 2021, 08:29 AM   #49
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 10,378
Too bad neither the Taliban nor ISIL\ISIS will fight like men, per the international laws, by wearing a uniform.

I'll never condone the deaths of innocents, but this is exactly what their goal is because it's a complete and total win for them. The innocents who died have a significantly higher chance of having their family members become radicalized. Sure they sacrifice a soldier, and maybe some explosives, but they gain more warriors. They're purposefully hiding amongst the civilians so that this will happen.

It sucks, it sucks all around.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th September 2021, 10:02 AM   #50
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 14,198
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Too bad neither the Taliban nor ISIL\ISIS will fight like men, per the international laws, by wearing a uniform.
....
You really don't know what guerrilla war is, do you?
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th September 2021, 10:21 AM   #51
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 10,378
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You really don't know what guerrilla war is, do you?
Why would you say that?

Ah yes, because here at ISF if we don't lay everything out specifically then we just don't know.

Yes, I know what it is, but I don't like it. I am just not a fan. I'm not saying they should stand out with muskets like back in the old days, but I find hiding among the people pathetic.

If it makes you feel better, I'll say "no, what's guerrilla war, Bob001." That way you'll still get a "gotcha" out of the whole thing. Extra points if you could explain it to me like 9, I just ******* love it when people talk down to me. It's like meth.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2021, 11:41 PM   #52
Susheel
Master Poster
 
Susheel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hyderabad, India
Posts: 2,407
In my opinion...this is a step forward...a teeny tiny step though. I still remember a time when the US government brushed aside such instances as acceptable collateral damage.
__________________
I've got to get to a library...fast Robert Langdon
Susheel is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 03:27 PM   #53
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 17,861
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Why would you say that?

Ah yes, because here at ISF if we don't lay everything out specifically then we just don't know.

Yes, I know what it is, but I don't like it. I am just not a fan. I'm not saying they should stand out with muskets like back in the old days, but I find hiding among the people pathetic.

If it makes you feel better, I'll say "no, what's guerrilla war, Bob001." That way you'll still get a "gotcha" out of the whole thing. Extra points if you could explain it to me like 9, I just ******* love it when people talk down to me. It's like meth.

I don't imagine the US military command are particular fans of guerrilla warfare either. But that's what they've had to confront in Iraq and Afghanistan (and, to a large degree, in Vietnam before that). That the US military has been pretty unsuccessful in those endeavours - in spite of throwing multiple billions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of professional troops and cutting-edge military equipment against enemies who cannot hope to come close to matching the US for those things - is at least as much down to a failure of military command as it is down to the skill/resourcefulness of the enemy.

Speaking to this point, one of the more cogent (IMO) criticisms of the US* military's in-theatre strategy & ops in foreign territories is that it's constantly - to a greater or lesser extent - been "fighting its parents'/grandparents' wars". That's to say, it's been utilising many of the strategies and operational deployments that served the US very well in a conflict such as WWII, but which are fundamentally unsuited to fighting against non-uniform combatants with civilian complicity/assistance in a theatre with no battle lines. The military of the "Western" nations ought to have constantly been (metaphorically) tearing up the rulebook wrt fighting a war, but old methods - particularly when they've led to success and glory in the past - have a tendency to die hard.


* It's worth noting that other nations' militaries suffer from a similar problem as well, but as the US is by far the biggest mover-shaker in the "West's" incursions into foreign countries over the past 60 years, it deserves more criticism than most.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 03:55 PM   #54
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,577
Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
I know there’s been a bit of back and forth on this but I think you guys are forgetting that this was in retaliation for the air port suicide bombing.
If that is true then our military just hit a new low. What's next - massacre 50 Afghan civilians for every one of ours that dies?
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 04:02 PM   #55
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 17,861
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I'm in no way minimizing this, or other, tragedies where innocents are killed in war. But it is a cold, hard fact of war that this kind of thing has happened, does happen, and will happen. War sucks.

This whole area is far less black-and-white than many might think.

Firstly, I am absolutely not seeking to condone or excuse the grave error the US made in that drone attack. And secondly, I'm absolutely in favour of full disclosure and full transparency as a starting-point in the matter of disseminating information to the public about military operations.

But....

It's not quite as simple as "It can't be a bad thing to tell the public everything."

For example, someone else in this thread mentioned the raid on Osama Bin Laden's compound in Abbottabad. Now, with hindsight we obviously know that they identified, targeted and stormed the correct compound, and successfully eliminated the World's most wanted man. But at the time the operation was green-lit by Obama, it was very far from a certainty that Osama was in that compound.

The top Executive Officers (Obama et al), the senior military commanders, and the intelligence agencies, had to weigh everything up in order to decide whether an armed raid on this compound was reasonably justified. Stripped down to the essentials, they had to decide whether it was justifiable to risk 1) Osama not being in that compound, and the Seals possibly killing innocent people with no connection to terrorism (as well as risking a diplomatic/operational rift with Pakistan over such a botched raid), in return for 2) the chance to capture or kill Osama (plus seize critical Al Qaeda informational material, and also possibly capture/kill other Al Qaeda operatives that may have also been in the compound.

They played a high-stakes game, and it worked out pretty much perfectly for them. But supposing they'd ordered the raid and Osama hadn't been in that compound (which, remember, had been a very real possibility when the raid was OK'd)? And that the Seals had killed innocent people as they searched the compound for someone who wasn't there? Should/would the public have been told about the existence of the raid and the killing of innocent people?


Going back further in time, I happened to watch a good documentary the other day about the last months of WWII in Europe. And part of it dealt with the allied aerial bombing of Dresden (and some other cities in Eastern Germany). By this stage in the war, the allies had all but abandoned targeted bombing (the attrition rate was too high, and the accuracy too low), so they were engaging in mass area bombing.

Now, when it came to Dresden, the allies knew (via Soviet intelligence) that Dresden in particular was serving as a major transportation hub for the German military, and they also knew that there were many factories in Dresden making munitions and other war materiel. But they also knew that not only was there a very large civilian population still living in Dresden by that time, but also that there were many thousands of refugees in central Dresden by then.

The allies made the considered decision to area-bomb Dresden so hard that barely a building subsequently still stood within 3 miles of the city centre. They killed tens of thousands of civilians and refugees in the process. But they also shut down Dresden's capability to arm the German military, plus they totally destroyed all the transport infrastructure (most notably the railway lines), which severely set back the ability of the German military to move troops/supplies/equipment around. The Dresden raid has came in for severe criticism at the time and in the years since WWII, causing the RAF's Head of Bomber command (Sir Arthur Harris) to opine that this was one raid where it might have been preferable to give the British public only a heavily-sanitised version of events.


My point is this: sometimes our leaders take extremely difficult decisions, and they do so in the informed belief that the pro's outweigh the con's. By contrast, the public often (even "usually") does not - and cannot - know the true nature of the evidence upon which the leaders took those decisions. The recent botched drone strike in Afghanistan certainly doesn't appear to pass the test of "honest mistake", but many other military operations with undesired outcomes have been (and will continue to be) unforeseen mistakes on operations which those who authorised and conducted them were doing for the "right" (in lieu of a more appropriate word) reasons.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 04:20 PM   #56
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,254
LJ, I think I saw that same documentary on Dresden. You made some good points and observations as usual.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 04:24 PM   #57
Pacal
Graduate Poster
 
Pacal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,272
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Why would you say that?

Ah yes, because here at ISF if we don't lay everything out specifically then we just don't know.

Yes, I know what it is, but I don't like it. I am just not a fan. I'm not saying they should stand out with muskets like back in the old days, but I find hiding among the people pathetic.

If it makes you feel better, I'll say "no, what's guerrilla war, Bob001." That way you'll still get a "gotcha" out of the whole thing. Extra points if you could explain it to me like 9, I just ******* love it when people talk down to me. It's like meth.
Well this is what asymmetrical warfare is like. American guerillas fought the British that way so did the Afghans when they fought the Russians and I will add the Spanish guerillas against the French.

Oh and guerillas hiding among the people is completely "conventional" guerilla tactics practiced by virtually all guerillas historically. Including Americans in the Revolutionary war. (Along with some terrorism.)

For centuries "conventional" militaries have complained / whined about guerillas etc., not fighting "fair". Well if your massively outgunned etc., fighting "fair" is not "fair" it means you will be crushed out of existence by a far more powerful enemy.

I know "conventional" armies would just love for a far weaker enemy to be in the open and expose themselves to utter destruction by the vastly more powerful "conventional" army but most of the time guerillas are not that stupid even though many "conventional" armies hope they would be.

Such tactics are the weapons of the weak in asymmetrical warfare and perfectly rational to do otherwise would just be moronic.
Pacal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 05:41 PM   #58
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 54,212
Combatants hiding among civilians is a war crime. Now, if not then. The purpose of shields is to get struck. Human shields are no different. The people who use human shields hope that you will be struck right in your powers of reason and judgement, and thus give up a struggle you could have won, and would have made the world a better place if you had won it. Even at that cost.

If someone uses human shields, the correct response is to fight them anyway, and execute the survivors for their war crimes afterwards.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 07:27 PM   #59
Pacal
Graduate Poster
 
Pacal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,272
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Combatants hiding among civilians is a war crime. Now, if not then. The purpose of shields is to get struck. Human shields are no different. The people who use human shields hope that you will be struck right in your powers of reason and judgement, and thus give up a struggle you could have won, and would have made the world a better place if you had won it. Even at that cost.

If someone uses human shields, the correct response is to fight them anyway, and execute the survivors for their war crimes afterwards.
Depends upon what you mean by "Human Shields". If you mean guerillas who simply hide among the people. The idea that that is a "war crime" is absurd. In which case the Afghan resistance to the Russians, to say nothing of cells operating in the Russian occupied cities, that engaged in sabotage were engaged in "war crimes". If you mean that then you have lost me. If you mean pushing civilians in front of you when you are defending or attacking that is I agree utterly unacceptable. If you mean living among the people is using them has human shields then you have lost me.

And does this apply to counter insurgency which is frequently little different from guerilla warfare?

Of course "conventional" armies have often in the past regarded guerilla warfare has a crime even though living among the people is the inevitable result of a type such warfare. It gets a bit murky when the individual is say a farmer by day and a guerilla at night.

In Spain the French often resorted to executing captured guerillas on the the grounds they were "unconventional warriors" and the "rules" of war did not apply to them. The guerilla response was simple; in many places for every guerilla executed they hung a French soldier. So such action by a "conventional" army has a nice chance of escalating the horror.

I wonder what you think of the various resistance movements to the Nazis that hid among the people, was that a war crime?

So I take it you are talking using literal human shields and not merely living among the people.

I can tell you that the response to "conventional" troops treating guerillas like war criminals is usually quite negative, especially if the population views them has heroes / defenders. I could give here the case of East Timor. The draconian approach has usually been counter-productive but if you want to create martyrs for the cause go ahead.

I could list the many modern 'conventional" armies that have used human shields. That is of course the function when armies of occupation take hostages.

If the USA was invaded and conquered would you oppose guerilla warfare against the invaders? I would hope not. But then I hope you are talking about literal use of Human shields.

I don't expect guerillas to fight "fair" that would be suicidal and idiotic on their part. I do expect them not to use literal human shields.
Pacal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 10:08 PM   #60
kevbo
Thinker
 
kevbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Rogue Valley, Oregon
Posts: 220
Originally Posted by Pacal View Post

...

I don't expect guerillas to fight "fair" that would be suicidal and idiotic on their part. I do expect them not to use literal human shields.
I agree. Succinctly put.
kevbo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 11:36 PM   #61
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,254
Originally Posted by kevbo View Post
I agree. Succinctly put.
Seconded.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th October 2021, 04:22 PM   #62
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,497
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Combatants hiding among civilians is a war crime. Now, if not then. The purpose of shields is to get struck. Human shields are no different. The people who use human shields hope that you will be struck right in your powers of reason and judgement, and thus give up a struggle you could have won, and would have made the world a better place if you had won it. Even at that cost.

If someone uses human shields, the correct response is to fight them anyway, and execute the survivors for their war crimes afterwards.
You gotta win before you set up Nuremberg courts, so looks like the Taliban got away with it. Likewise, the Taliban is unlikely to get their hands on the many US and US allied war criminals from the 20 year war, so they're safe too.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 8th October 2021 at 04:24 PM.
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th October 2021, 04:25 PM   #63
Warp12
Master Poster
 
Warp12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 2,407
Originally Posted by Pacal View Post

I don't expect guerillas to fight "fair" that would be suicidal and idiotic on their part. I do expect them not to use literal human shields.
Send them your rulebook, LOL.
__________________
“The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat.” - Confucius
Warp12 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th October 2021, 06:31 PM   #64
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,254
The US is going to make 'condolence' payments to families whose relatives were killed in the drone strike:

Quote:
The U.S. Department of Defense says it will provide money to the families affected by the botched drone strike on Aug. 29 that killed 10 civilians, including up to seven children, in Kabul, Afghanistan.
Quote:
According to Kirby, "Dr. Kahl reiterated Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin's commitment to the families, including offering ex gratia condolence payments, in addition to working with the State Department in support of Mr. Ahmadi's family members who are interested in relocation to the United States."
Quote:
It has not been specified how much the condolence payments would be.
https://www.npr.org/2021/10/16/10467...strike-victims

Mr Ahmadi was the man driving the white van that was mistakenly targeted.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:44 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.