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Old 27th September 2021, 11:19 AM   #961
Jungle Jim
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55 Corporations Paid $0 in Federal Taxes on 2020 Profits - https://itep.org/55-profitable-corpo...kf86vbYx_AUMdg

I don't know if this was posted previously. Make of it what you will.
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Old 27th September 2021, 11:21 AM   #962
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Originally Posted by Jungle Jim View Post
55 Corporations Paid $0 in Federal Taxes on 2020 Profits - https://itep.org/55-profitable-corpo...kf86vbYx_AUMdg

I don't know if this was posted previously. Make of it what you will.
This is the other issue.

"How much should X pay" is a conversation we can have, sure.

But at no point is "nothing" a reasonable answer.
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Old 27th September 2021, 11:41 AM   #963
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Without deep analysis, I would say "fair" means paying at least the rate I'm paying. And I'm paying way more than 8 percent.
That 8 percent is a ******** number. They have to stretch the definition of "income" beyond what actually counts as income in order to arrive at it. Note also that the Biden administration isn't even proposing to tax most of this "income" which isn't actually income. And in what should be an obvious tell that they're trying to appeal to your emotions with that 8%, there's a giant glaring omission. Their proposal is supposed to "address" the fact that this 8% is unfairly low, but they never actually say what it would rise to if they got all the new taxes they want. Isn't that curious?
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Old 27th September 2021, 11:44 AM   #964
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You can't sit on a horde of money and go "This doesn't count because it's not income."
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Old 27th September 2021, 11:50 AM   #965
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l don't want at the moment to dive down all the rabbit holes here, but I think that while we are trying to figure out and solve issues of inequality and privilege and whatnot, we must occcasionally also think of how our solutions might reflect in the real world. It is, for example, reasonable to question the fact that many people inherit great wealth without justification. But that is also how businesses and farms and other enterprises often prevail. Do we want every business and every farm to end with an owner's death, and then, if not lost, sold to the highest bidder? I'm fully willing to accept that current laws are not working well, and need rethinking, but the wholesale abolition of inheritance is pretty drastic.

Similarly, unrealized wealth in the form of real estate. Property taxes already are based on market value, which can be a problem for some who remain in place a long time, including farmers.* Do we want the consequence of income taxing unrealized sales value on top of this? I suspect the result would be an amplification of a problem that already exists in some degree: that income level (and thus economic status, with all its other ramifications) becomes a qualification for remaining in your home. If your income declines or your neighborhood flourishes, tough luck. The poor must sell out and move out.

I am quite sure that our current tax system is flawed, corrupt, and favors inequality. But we need to be careful how we fix it. There's a difference between fixing how rich people exploit the system and dumping the system they exploit.

*e.t.a. Many municipalities and states do allow for this by assigning "use value" to agricultural property, in part as a disincentive to development as well as an incentive to keep farming. However, this is rarely done for anything but agriculture, including just plain living.
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Last edited by bruto; 27th September 2021 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 27th September 2021, 11:50 AM   #966
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Originally Posted by Jungle Jim View Post
55 Corporations Paid $0 in Federal Taxes on 2020 Profits - https://itep.org/55-profitable-corpo...kf86vbYx_AUMdg
The title conflates income tax with all taxes, and that's a mistake. They may well have paid $0 in federal income tax, but income tax is hardly the only federal tax. Payroll taxes are federal as well, and there's basically no way for large corporations to avoid paying that. And it's a considerable amount for any large employer.
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Old 27th September 2021, 11:51 AM   #967
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You can't sit on a horde of money and go "This doesn't count because it's not income."
Uh... yes, actually, you can. That's why we have a different word for it: wealth. Wealth is not income, and income is not wealth. Don't confuse the two.
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Old 27th September 2021, 11:56 AM   #968
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The title conflates income tax with all taxes, and that's a mistake. They may well have paid $0 in federal income tax, but income tax is hardly the only federal tax. Payroll taxes are federal as well, and there's basically no way for large corporations to avoid paying that. And it's a considerable amount for any large employer.
Yeah that's the difference that makes a difference.

"What? I paid my mortgage, now you're saying I have to pay my car payment as well!"
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Old 27th September 2021, 12:23 PM   #969
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
...... But that is also how businesses and farms and other enterprises often prevail. Do we want every business and every farm to end with an owner's death, and then, if not lost, sold to the highest bidder?
......
Corporations are eternal. Their owners are their stockholders, who buy and sell their stock. Private businesses and farms can be passed on to heirs for generations. Nobody wants to seize them. The only question is how much tax the heirs should pay. And the current exemption of the first $11+ million protects almost all of them.
About 4,100 estate tax returns will be filed for people who die in 2020, of which only about 1,900 will be taxable—less than 0.1 percent of the 2.8 million people expected to die in that year.
https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/brie...pay-estate-tax
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Old 27th September 2021, 12:52 PM   #970
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Corporations are eternal. Their owners are their stockholders, who buy and sell their stock. Private businesses and farms can be passed on to heirs for generations. Nobody wants to seize them. The only question is how much tax the heirs should pay. And the current exemption of the first $11+ million protects almost all of them.
About 4,100 estate tax returns will be filed for people who die in 2020, of which only about 1,900 will be taxable—less than 0.1 percent of the 2.8 million people expected to die in that year.
https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/brie...pay-estate-tax
Maybe I've misread, but I think there have been some comments here that suggest the actual elimination of inheritance.
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Old 27th September 2021, 01:11 PM   #971
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah that's the difference that makes a difference.

"What? I paid my mortgage, now you're saying I have to pay my car payment as well!"
Why are you using a comparison where not paying the additional tax would be illegal?
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Old 27th September 2021, 01:18 PM   #972
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why are you using a comparison where not paying the additional tax would be illegal?
I'm saying "But I paid another kind of tax" isn't the point and you goddamn well know it.
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Old 27th September 2021, 02:45 PM   #973
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Maybe I've misread, but I think there have been some comments here that suggest the actual elimination of inheritance.
Some people are against all inheritance taxes. I don't think anybody has proposed seizing all your stuff when you die.
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Old 27th September 2021, 03:11 PM   #974
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
It is, for example, reasonable to question the fact that many people inherit great wealth without justification.
This right here tells me there is a fundamental, axiomatic divide between us. As far as I'm concerned, any argument from that side of the fence amounts to virtue-signaling to an audience that already agrees with you anyway. And they agree with you not because of your arguments, but because of your axioms.

You could simply say, "we should confiscate more money from the rich, because they don't deserve it (because the rich never do, by definition)", and get exactly the same validation from exactly the same choir, since it's in fact exactly the same sermon.

In fact, there is plenty of justification for people inheriting wealth. It may not be a complete justification in your eyes, but it's not entirely without justification. The fact that you don't see it that way says that we will never agree on tax policy.
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Old 27th September 2021, 04:44 PM   #975
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This right here tells me there is a fundamental, axiomatic divide between us. As far as I'm concerned, any argument from that side of the fence amounts to virtue-signaling to an audience that already agrees with you anyway. And they agree with you not because of your arguments, but because of your axioms.

You could simply say, "we should confiscate more money from the rich, because they don't deserve it (because the rich never do, by definition)", and get exactly the same validation from exactly the same choir, since it's in fact exactly the same sermon.

In fact, there is plenty of justification for people inheriting wealth. It may not be a complete justification in your eyes, but it's not entirely without justification. The fact that you don't see it that way says that we will never agree on tax policy.
It's hard to argue, based on observation, that wild wealth disparity is corrosive to the notion of meaningfully democratic society. Taxing wealth is both a practical means to funding our society and a good in itself.
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Old 28th September 2021, 01:31 AM   #976
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Is there any reason why unrealized gains should not be taxed?
Because there is no money from these gains (yet). To pay the taxes, the owner might have to sell some of the asset and forced sales are always a money losing proposition. The upshot is that we would probably see a greater concentration of asset ownership in foreign hands.
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Old 28th September 2021, 01:34 AM   #977
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
In fact, there is plenty of justification for people inheriting wealth. It may not be a complete justification in your eyes, but it's not entirely without justification. The fact that you don't see it that way says that we will never agree on tax policy.
I would agree with you with one caveat: whenever an asset is sold or gifted or inherited, any appreciation in the value of the asset should be regarded as "realized" and taxed. (Of course, any depreciation should be a tax deduction. Fair's fair).
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Old 3rd October 2021, 10:40 PM   #978
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If the rich and middle class aren't paying their "fair share", where is the US collecting taxes from?

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/18/61pe...nter-says.html
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Old 7th October 2021, 08:16 AM   #979
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
If the rich and middle class aren't paying their "fair share", where is the US collecting taxes from?
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/18/61pe...nter-says.html

Why on earth would you conflate the "rich" with the "middle class?" The middle class is paying plenty in taxes. Your link notes that a large reason for people not paying any federal income taxes is unemployment resulting from the pandemic. You don't owe income tax if you don't have income. And note that even working people who are paid too little to owe federal income taxes are paying payroll, sales, real estate and other taxes. It is the wealthiest families, a fraction of the top one percent, who often aren't paying anything, let alone their fair share.

Like this:
Quote:
One tool that wealth advisors to the rich deploy is called a "dynasty trust."

A dynasty trust is a form of trust that is designed to sequester wealth for longer than ordinary trusts—sometimes for centuries or forever. These trusts are often formed in U.S. states—such as South Dakota—that have suspended or altered their state "rule against perpetuities," legislation that previously limited the lifespan of a trust. (For the full wonky version see this background brief that I co-authored about dynasty trusts.)

In the 1980s, South Dakota changed its laws to attract wealthy people looking to park their money in trusts (they did the same thing to attract the credit card industry). A few other states followed suit, such as Wyoming and Alaska. Today, a private trust industry flourishes in the South Dakota, helping billionaires hoard their wealth.
https://www.salon.com/2021/10/02/why...akota_partner/
https://inequality.org/wp-content/up...une15-2021.pdf

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Old 7th October 2021, 11:02 AM   #980
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm saying "But I paid another kind of tax" isn't the point and you goddamn well know it.
Your point was garbage, because my point was never that paying multiple kinds of taxes is a problem. And you SHOULD know that, but maybe you don't. It wasn't about what can be required, it's about what was required. They were required to pay taxes. They did pay taxes. And not paying income taxes is very different than not paying any taxes. Retirees living off of savings who still have to pay property taxes know that quite well.
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Old 10th October 2021, 10:31 PM   #981
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The Pandora Papers reveal how the superwealthy conceal and keep their money.
Quote:
The Pandora Papers is a leak of almost 12 million documents that reveals hidden wealth, tax avoidance and, in some cases, money laundering by some of the world's rich and powerful.

More than 600 journalists in 117 countries have been trawling through the files from 14 sources for months, finding stories that are being published this week.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-58780561

Quote:
The files reveal how wealthy individuals can shield their income and their assets from taxation and scrutiny by hiding them in offshore jurisdictions, more commonly known as “tax havens”.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/202...rs-at-a-glance

And:
https://www.icij.org/investigations/pandora-papers/
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Old 14th October 2021, 09:23 PM   #982
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I got my tax return and have put down a deposit on another Ferrari. You're welcome America.
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Old 15th October 2021, 03:45 AM   #983
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
I got my tax return and have put down a deposit on another Ferrari. You're welcome America.
How generous, this purchase you're undertaking for the nation. But I fear the time share allotment per person will be measured in milliseconds.
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Old 15th October 2021, 01:41 PM   #984
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
I got my tax return and have put down a deposit on another Ferrari. You're welcome America.
What a Trump thing to say.
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