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Old 2nd October 2021, 03:48 AM   #321
dann
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Quote:
California will add the Covid-19 vaccination to the immunizations required for in-person school attendance, Gov. Gavin Newsom announced.
California to mandate Covid-19 vaccine for students (CNN, Oct 1, 2021)
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 3rd October 2021, 08:41 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/20...ted-nr-vpx.cnn

A New York teacher is leaving her job instead of getting vaccinated...
The New York City teacher, Stephanie Edmonds, expressed her hope in the interview that a class action lawsuit filed by a teachers' group would be able to halt enforcement of the New York City Board of Education's deadline for teachers being required to show proof of having been vaccinated in order to continue teaching. The deadline was 5 PM last Friday.

The US Supreme Court agreed to expedite a ruling but New York cable news station NY1 reported Friday night that the Court dismissed the teachers' motion. Teachers had based the motion on the fact other city workers who refused to be vaccinated are allowed to continue working so long as they take a weekly Covid-19 test. In justifying the different standard for public school teachers, the city cited the danger of infection to children too young to be vaccinated as the major reason.

Quote:
U.S. Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor has denied a request for an injunction against the Department of Education's COVID-19 vaccine mandate, the mayor's press secretary and the attorney who filed the petition confirmed Friday afternoon. NY1 link

That the teachers' union, the United Federation of Teachers, seemed reluctant to support the dissident teachers, I found both surprising and encouraging. Apparently the UFT accepted the city's reasoning as being realistic and widely supported by the communities involved.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 11:46 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
This guy, retiring two years short of his pension (18 years enlisted) in protest:

https://www.businessinsider.com/army...vaccine-2021-9

I get standing up for your ideals...but this is pure stupidity.
I think it's stupid as well. But I do kind of respect the guy. A principle one is not willing to stand up for is hardly a principle.

But yeah, it is a stupid principle.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 05:32 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I think it's stupid as well. But I do kind of respect the guy. A principle one is not willing to stand up for is hardly a principle.

But yeah, it is a stupid principle.
I disagree. He doesn't deserve respect. He drank the kool-aid.

There is no principle for him to stand up for. He has received every vaccination required of him during his military career. If he had a principle to stand up for he never would have made it through basic training. He is just being stupid, and throwing away his career for a perceived principle. If he was privately employed, maybe he would have a principle. He's not, therefore he doesn't. Now that he will be a civilian he can be proud of his perceived principle which doesn't apply to the military. You sign up, you do as you're told, unless it is an illegal order. This is not. Just my 2 cents. Stupid is as stupid does.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 06:19 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by kevbo View Post
I disagree. He doesn't deserve respect. He drank the kool-aid.

There is no principle for him to stand up for. He has received every vaccination required of him during his military career. If he had a principle to stand up for he never would have made it through basic training. He is just being stupid, and throwing away his career for a perceived principle. If he was privately employed, maybe he would have a principle. He's not, therefore he doesn't. Now that he will be a civilian he can be proud of his perceived principle which doesn't apply to the military. You sign up, you do as you're told, unless it is an illegal order. This is not. Just my 2 cents. Stupid is as stupid does.
I really don't respect his principle. I respect that any individual would stand up for their principles. I just wish they were more circumspect in choosing their principles.

Years ago. I was the product manager for a small software developer. We had been acquired by a venture capital firm which frankly staggered me since our software was never going to be a product that would return their investment.
I was called in to speak to the VC board to brief them. They asked me questions that if I answered truthfully would probably result in the VC disbanding the company.

I couldn't get myself to lie. And two weeks later the VC did exactly what I was worried about. 15 people including myself were given our walking papers. If I lied they might have kept their jobs for another 3 months.

To this day, I am not sure I did the right thing.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 06:59 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I really don't respect his principle. I respect that any individual would stand up for their principles. I just wish they were more circumspect in choosing their principles.

Years ago. I was the product manager for a small software developer. We had been acquired by a venture capital firm which frankly staggered me since our software was never going to be a product that would return their investment.
I was called in to speak to the VC board to brief them. They asked me questions that if I answered truthfully would probably result in the VC disbanding the company.

I couldn't get myself to lie. And two weeks later the VC did exactly what I was worried about. 15 people including myself were given our walking papers. If I lied they might have kept their jobs for another 3 months.

To this day, I am not sure I did the right thing.
I get it. Honesty is the best policy, except when it is not.

Since you shared a story, I will also.

During contract negotiations that I was leading for a contingent of my university work place, it became obvious that the administration side was not negotiating in good faith (they just wanted us gone). I communicated with my workforce and attempted to keep their hopes up for a negotiated settlement that would be equitable to both sides. Meanwhile, I employed a strategy to take advantage of their delaying tactics to win as many months of paychecks for my coworkers as I could before the administration cut everyone loose. I managed to secure 6 months of employment that would not have existed for 23 people before we were cut loose. I managed to secure permanent positions for 3 people to be grandfathered in until retirement. None of that would have happened if I had "bargained in good faith" with people who were not. I basically ran the clock on them, but I did not feel good about it, or my integrity. You play the hand you are dealt, not the one you would like.

I never lied to them, but I felt dirty for not being up front about my negotiating arguments that required them to go back and research and deliberate, all just to gain time.

Last edited by kevbo; 3rd October 2021 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 07:21 PM   #327
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Given that there is near total agreement that Covid-19 will become endemic, this can impact optimum public policy. Exposure becomes a question of when, not if, as everyone will get exposed at some point. To a great degree this means the main purpose of vaccination is protecting oneself and less so others.

A reasonable approach then is to set a future time some months ahead, where all vaccine and mask mandates will cease provided prevalence rates are below some threshold that protects medical infrastructure and vaccines are approved for kids. This might well result in increased vaccinations since a lot of the resistance is from people that feel mandates are some attempt to control their lives and they lose rational behavior.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 08:58 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by marting View Post
....This might well result in increased vaccinations since a lot of the resistance is from people that feel mandates are some attempt to control their lives and they lose rational behavior.
The mandates were not put in place until it became clear that that these people were not going to get vaccinated on their own. I mean, vaccines were free, available and optional, but they still refused them.

Adding to that, many of the industries implementing the mandates are the same industries whose workers qualified for the shot early on. Healthcare workers, emergency workers, critical infrastructure workers. People who had optional access to the shots for months before the general public - and refused to get them.

So now, we go back to being optional again, but this time they'll act differently than they did all these previous months when they had optional access?

Last edited by crescent; 3rd October 2021 at 09:27 PM.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 09:44 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The mandates were not put in place until it became clear that that these people were not going to get vaccinated on their own. I mean, vaccines were free, available and optional, but they still refused them.

Adding to that, many of the industries implementing the mandates are the same industries whose workers qualified for the shot early on. Healthcare workers, emergency workers, critical infrastructure workers. People who had optional access to the shots for months before the general public - and refused to get them.

So now, we go back to being optional again, but this time they'll act differently than they did all these previous months when they had optional access?
Yeah, probably not but also all the talk was herd immunity so some of those afraid of vaccine side effects were counting on Covid-19 going away by letting others take the vaccine risks which were inflated by whatever social media they consumed.

But if endemic everyone will get exposed, over and over through the years. Including those vaccinated and previously infected. And it will be similar to seasonal flu. Well, except for the unvaccinated. I no longer see a case for mandating it outside of the caveats I listed earlier.
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Old 4th October 2021, 11:57 AM   #330
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Mandating is working as the numbers show:
Quote:
States with vaccine mandates for health care workers that have taken effect, like California and New York, have seen a large uptick in vaccinations.

These, of course, are blue states and have higher vaccination rates to begin with. But some health systems in red states, like Texas, have seen similar results when their mandates took effect.

High-profile mandates outside of the health care sector have also been successful. For instance, United Airlines achieved nearly 100% vaccination among its employees, and Tyson Foods announced that more than 90% of its workers are now vaccinated.
Quote:
"As we get down to the harder core unvaccinated who are more resistant, what we are seeing is that reality is a more powerful tool to change behavior than information and messaging," said Drew Altman, president and CEO of KFF.
https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-va...22cec2d42.html
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Old 4th October 2021, 02:27 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by kevbo View Post
...There is no principle for him to stand up for. He has received every vaccination required of him during his military career...
For me there is something odd about this entire episode. It doesn't pass the sniff test.

The Army officer is Lt. Col. Doug Hague. When he decided to retire his wife 'Tweeted' the news and included a copy of his resignation letter in her Tweet.
Quote:
Katie Phipps Hague @AtTheHague
After eighteen years of active duty service in the US Army,
my lieutenant colonel husband has resigned.
He’s walking away from all he’s worked for and
believed in since he was an ROTC kid at UGA

He’s walking away from his retirement. Twitter link
Here are a couple quotes from Hague's resignation letter:
Quote:
I cannot and will not contribute to the fall of this great nation and its people—those very Americans whom I swore to protect the liberty of at all cost. The values that our nation was founded on, has lived by and thrived under, have been utterly decimated by the current presidential administration and the leadership of the military: to include the Army. We are watching the fall of liberty at this moment. Governors and mayors forcibly locking down millions of Americans, restricting them from their unalienable right to pursue happiness…What I view as an ideologically Marxist takeover of the military and United Stales government at their upper echelons.
Obviously Lieutenant Colonel Hague is bothered by a lot more than just being vaccinated. Next Hague appeared on FOX News' Sean Hannity's program to discuss his 'views.'

My guess is, Lt. Col. Hague is having some kind of emotional and/or mental breakdown or... He's positioning himself for a post-military career in politics.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Hague and Sean.jpg (111.6 KB, 6 views)
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Old 4th October 2021, 03:35 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
For me there is something odd about this entire episode. It doesn't pass the sniff test.

The Army officer is Lt. Col. Doug Hague. When he decided to retire his wife 'Tweeted' the news and included a copy of his resignation letter in her Tweet.


Here are a couple quotes from Hague's resignation letter:


Obviously Lieutenant Colonel Hague is bothered by a lot more than just being vaccinated. Next Hague appeared on FOX News' Sean Hannity's program to discuss his 'views.'

My guess is, Lt. Col. Hague is having some kind of emotional and/or mental breakdown or... He's positioning himself for a post-military career in politics.
I don't disagree with this possibility.
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Old 4th October 2021, 03:58 PM   #333
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Looks to me like Hague is a bit of an extremist nutter.

Expect to see him brought up on a stage by Dear Leader.
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Old 4th October 2021, 04:04 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
My guess is, Lt. Col. Hague is having some kind of emotional and/or mental breakdown or... He's positioning himself for a post-military career in politics.
It reminds me of the military surgeon who refused deployment to Afghanistan because he didn't think Obama legally president and therefore was not commander in chief. He had the support of three retired generals, apparently.

Terry Larkin

My niece attends the same high school Larkin went to.


The military won't obey orders that they believe to be illegal or unconstitutional. But they can be religiously motivated to interpret things in very odd, odd ways such that a surprising number probably would support a coup by convincing themselves it was mandated by their oath.
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Old 4th October 2021, 06:07 PM   #335
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I'm sure the outcome for Lt. Col Terrence Lakin was very different than anything Hague can expect. Lakin, who remained on active duty, was brought up on charges and court-martialed. Lakin eventually retracted his statements regarding Obama and Afghanistan, saying he'd been wrong and he was now willing to obey orders and deploy to Afghanistan. But his 'about face' came too late. His court martial proceeded and he was convicted on several charges.

Quote:
An Army doctor who disobeyed orders to deploy to Afghanistan because he questioned President Barack Obama's eligibility to be commander in chief was sentenced by a jury Thursday to six months in a military prison and dismissal from the Army. HuffPo via Wayback Machine

Last edited by newyorkguy; 4th October 2021 at 06:30 PM. Reason: Lakin not Larkin
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Old 4th October 2021, 06:36 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I'm sure the outcome for Lt. Col Terrence Lakin was very different than anything Hague can expect. Lakin, who remained on active duty, was brought up on charges and court-martialed. Lakin eventually retracted his statements regarding Obama and Afghanistan, saying he'd been wrong and he was now willing to obey orders and deploy to Afghanistan. But his 'about face' came too late. His court martial proceeded and he was convicted on several charges.
Quote:
Quote:
An Army doctor who disobeyed orders to deploy to Afghanistan because he questioned President Barack Obama's eligibility to be commander in chief was sentenced by a jury Thursday to six months in a military prison and dismissal from the Army. HuffPo via Wayback Machine
Good.
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Old 10th October 2021, 04:39 PM   #337
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US Army Lt. Col. Paul Hague wrote in his resignation letter, "First, and foremost, I am incapable of subjecting myself to the unlawful, unethical, immoral and tyrannical order to sit still and allow a serum to be injected into my flesh against my will and better judgment." FOX News link

Better judgement? Does the good colonel have all the facts? A study just released by Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis has revealed that Covid-19 effects sometimes linger and can put survivors at increased risk of heart disease and blood clots.

Quote:
As the COVID-19 pandemic has progressed, it has become clear that many survivors — even those who had mild cases — continue to manage a variety of health problems long after the initial infection should have resolved. In what is believed to be the largest comprehensive study of long COVID-19 to date, researchers at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis showed that COVID-19 survivors — including those not sick enough to be hospitalized — have an increased risk of death in the six months following diagnosis with the virus.

The researchers also have catalogued the numerous diseases associated with COVID-19, providing a big-picture overview of the long-term complications of COVID-19 and revealing the massive burden this disease is likely to place on the world’s population in the coming years. Washngton University link
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Old 10th October 2021, 04:40 PM   #338
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"I have a right to make stupid, bad, dangerous decisions" seems to be the only right a lot of "But Muh Rights" side care about.
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Old 10th October 2021, 06:01 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
US Army Lt. Col. Paul Hague wrote in his resignation letter, "First, and foremost, I am incapable of subjecting myself to the unlawful, unethical, immoral and tyrannical order to sit still and allow a serum to be injected into my flesh against my will and better judgment." FOX News link

Better judgement? Does the good colonel have all the facts? A study just released by Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis has revealed that Covid-19 effects sometimes linger and can put survivors at increased risk of heart disease and blood clots.
https://www.businessinsider.com/army...vaccine-2021-9

The moron is resigning two years short of being able to retire with pension and benefits. He says that he thinks it's tyrannical that he's being forced to get the shot. He got forced to take all the other vaccines you have to get to be in the Army. I don't recall anyone asking me if I wanted any of the vaccines they gave me.
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Old 10th October 2021, 06:08 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
https://www.businessinsider.com/army...vaccine-2021-9

The moron is resigning two years short of being able to retire with pension and benefits. He says that he thinks it's tyrannical that he's being forced to get the shot. He got forced to take all the other vaccines you have to get to be in the Army. I don't recall anyone asking me if I wanted any of the vaccines they gave me.
Being stupid, short-sighted and hypocritical is one way to retire from the military it seems.
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Old 10th October 2021, 06:10 PM   #341
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Kinda think the US Army can get along without that light colonel.
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Old 10th October 2021, 06:33 PM   #342
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The real problem with the vaccine mandates is that none of the people I know at the office who are talking about leaving have jobs I'm interested in applying for.
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Old 10th October 2021, 06:37 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The real problem with the vaccine mandates is that none of the people I know at the office who are talking about leaving have jobs I'm interested in applying for.
You know, I might consider coming out of retirement to take the job of a cement-headed anti-vaxxer.
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Old 10th October 2021, 08:02 PM   #344
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871 LA Firefighters Sue City of LA over Vax Mandates

https://www.ntd.com/871-firefighters...te_687079.html
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Old 10th October 2021, 08:18 PM   #345
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Wow, and this is coming from a Lt. Col.

Everybody has to go through basic (if they are enlisted anyway), and they just line you up, and stick you with everything they need to vaccinate you against. I was never even told what shots I got when I got them, I didn't find out until I had access to my medical records later on.

Last edited by Boudicca90; 10th October 2021 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 10th October 2021, 08:18 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
You know, I might consider coming out of retirement to take the job of a cement-headed anti-vaxxer.
I'm genuinely interested. Not a bad idea. I don't know where to start searching jobs with that filter lol.
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Old 10th October 2021, 10:03 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
871 LA Firefighters Sue City of LA over Vax Mandates

https://www.ntd.com/871-firefighters...te_687079.html
And? You may have noticed that these cases aren't going well for the anti-vaxers.
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Old 11th October 2021, 03:06 AM   #348
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The Los Angeles Times reported it was about 550 Los Angeles firefighters (out of 3,500) who joined the class action lawsuit. The article quoted and linked below was published September 21st.
Quote:
Kevin McBride, the attorney representing the firefighters, said his clients are seeking a “middle ground” with the city, but it’s unclear what that would be. “They’re sensitive to the public,” McBride said of the firefighters. “No one wants to spread COVID-19.”

An LAFD spokesman told The Times on Friday that 58.5% of the sworn members have been fully vaccinated and 66% have received at least one dose...The total number of LAFD employees who have tested positive for COVID-19 is 1,079, according to city data. A total of 1,056 LAFD employees have recovered and returned to duty. Two firefighters have died after contracting COVID-19.

More than 460 exemption requests have been submitted by LAFD employees, according to city data — a number equal to 12.5% of the department workforce. LA Times link
By the way, the "NTD" link provided is to the New Tang Dynasty dot com TV network and website. NTD was begun in 2001 by followers of the Falun Gong religious movement and is based in New York City. The station originally broadcast in a Chinese-language but has since added multi-lingual offerings.

New Tang Dynasty? Any port in a storm, eh Caroline.
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Old 11th October 2021, 06:29 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
871 LA Firefighters Sue City of LA over Vax Mandates

https://www.ntd.com/871-firefighters...te_687079.html
Bang a gong, Falun gong . . .

Who cares; they'll lose and be forced to take the vaccine that might save their lives, or stupidly quit and lose their benefits. A win/win.
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Last edited by Resume; 11th October 2021 at 06:36 AM.
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Old 11th October 2021, 06:40 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Kinda think the US Army can get along without that light colonel.
It survived the departure of Herr Kratman.
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Old 11th October 2021, 06:47 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
And? You may have noticed that these cases aren't going well for the anti-vaxers.
I would think that the demand for millions apiece kind of taints the idea that it's about principle, too.
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Old 11th October 2021, 04:36 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by kevbo View Post
I get it. Honesty is the best policy, except when it is not.

Since you shared a story, I will also.

During contract negotiations that I was leading for a contingent of my university work place, it became obvious that the administration side was not negotiating in good faith (they just wanted us gone). I communicated with my workforce and attempted to keep their hopes up for a negotiated settlement that would be equitable to both sides. Meanwhile, I employed a strategy to take advantage of their delaying tactics to win as many months of paychecks for my coworkers as I could before the administration cut everyone loose. I managed to secure 6 months of employment that would not have existed for 23 people before we were cut loose. I managed to secure permanent positions for 3 people to be grandfathered in until retirement. None of that would have happened if I had "bargained in good faith" with people who were not. I basically ran the clock on them, but I did not feel good about it, or my integrity. You play the hand you are dealt, not the one you would like.

I never lied to them, but I felt dirty for not being up front about my negotiating arguments that required them to go back and research and deliberate, all just to gain time.

It's a hard one. I don't think either of us were in a position where the right thing to do was simple. The owners of the VC were enormously wealthy. Us employees were paid well but none of us were getting rich. At first I felt a little proud that I told the truth. But later, I felt pretty stupid and awful for not looking out for the people around me. But I can take solace in that they might have disbanded the company any way. Atleast the VC was very generous. They paid all of us six months of severance and we were all entitled to unemployment immediately. And my fellow employees didn't really suffer as all were highly educated and in demand.
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Old 12th October 2021, 02:21 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
US Army Lt. Col. Paul Hague wrote in his resignation letter, "First, and foremost, I am incapable of subjecting myself to the unlawful, unethical, immoral and tyrannical order to sit still and allow a serum to be injected into my flesh against my will and better judgment." FOX News link

Better judgement? Does the good colonel have all the facts? A study just released by Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis has revealed that Covid-19 effects sometimes linger and can put survivors at increased risk of heart disease and blood clots.

I would love to see a recruit try to use that line right before he gets five of six jabs of vaccines in a row on his first day of basic...


Frankly, the Service is better off without the likes of Hague.
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Old 12th October 2021, 02:26 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
It survived the departure of Herr Kratman.
What makes this funny for anybody who has been in the US Army is you get
a whole bunch of vaccantion shots on your first day of basic training. When i was in , two in the right arm, two in the left, and a grand finale in your buttocks.
I doubt a US Army DI would be impressed by a recruit using that line the LT.Col gave.
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Old 12th October 2021, 02:27 PM   #355
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Congratulation to the New Jersey Nets for telling Kyrie Irving to get vaccinated or stay home. He won't be allowed on the court as long he refuses to get vaccinated. Best way to handle the situation.
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Old 12th October 2021, 02:42 PM   #356
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There are vaccine mandates in Australia and they will lead to over 90% over 16 fully vaccinated within weeks. When this rolls out to children soon, I expect the nation to reach 95%, and possibly herd immunity.

But there are people holding out. Construction requires mandated vaccination. I was talking to the owner of a medium sized home builder who is sacking his workers and closing his business because he refuses to take “experimental” drugs.

He said he may re-open when the “proper vaccine” Novavax gets approval here some time next year.

I didn’t bother to argue with him. He might find it difficult to reopen successfully with his competitors having a 6-12 month jump on him.
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Old 12th October 2021, 02:46 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Congratulation to the New Jersey Nets for telling Kyrie Irving to get vaccinated or stay home. He won't be allowed on the court as long he refuses to get vaccinated. Best way to handle the situation.
Agreed, a great move.
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Old 12th October 2021, 02:56 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Agreed, a great move.
Irving has been something of a "Cancer in the Locker room" for some time. It says something the Boston let him go so easily.
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Old 12th October 2021, 03:11 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
The Los Angeles Times reported it was about 550 Los Angeles firefighters (out of 3,500) who joined the class action lawsuit. The article quoted and linked below was published September 21st.


By the way, the "NTD" link provided is to the New Tang Dynasty dot com TV network and website. NTD was begun in 2001 by followers of the Falun Gong religious movement and is based in New York City. The station originally broadcast in a Chinese-language but has since added multi-lingual offerings.

New Tang Dynasty? Any port in a storm, eh Caroline.
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Bang a gong, Falun gong . . .

Who cares; they'll lose and be forced to take the vaccine that might save their lives, or stupidly quit and lose their benefits. A win/win.
I think they run Epoch TV which also seems to be becoming a favourite outlet for right-wingers and general reactionaries to peddle all kinds of crap.
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Old 12th October 2021, 03:45 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Irving has been something of a "Cancer in the Locker room" for some time. It says something the Boston let him go so easily.
He has also long been a 'conspiracy of the Month' type. His issue with the vaccine was visible from a mile away. Many of the ani-vaxx crowd I meet down here are also into any type of conspiracy they come across. They never learned how to parse what they read on the internet.
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