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Old 22nd September 2021, 06:27 PM   #41
Warp12
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
I don't know why you're so intent on both-siding this. The Democrats wouldn't need unanimity (an absurd expectation for any grouping of humans) if it weren't for Republican obstructionism that has become their SOP since a black man had the unmitigated gall to be elected president.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Better said than I did.
Everything is about race, yo.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 01:30 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
For all the foreign peeps let me break down exactly what is happening. This is not an exaggeration or a misrepresentation.

1. Congress passes the National Budget which lays out things that the government is required to spend money on.
2. Congress then passes the Tax Plan, which lays out how much money the government will have to spend.
3. The President, as head of the Executive Branch, is required by law to use the money available from #2 to buy everything in #1.
4. If #2 is a bigger number than #1 (which within a rounding error it literally always is) he has to borrow money to make up the difference.
5. There is a rule in place set by Congress that the President can only borrow so much money.
6. If he needs to borrow more he needs Congresses permission to borrow more. Again this the President asking Congress to borrow money because Congress says "You have to spend this much money" and "Here's how much money we're giving you."
7. Congress can say no. As in Congress can literally go "Here's 10 dollars. I order you to spend 15 dollars. The highest amount you can borrow is 3 dollars. No I will not let you borrow anymore." This is what causes a shutdown.

It's insane. It's so functionally insane.
Seems really insane. So how much is #1 and #2 now and how much can he borrow before shutdown?
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Old 23rd September 2021, 02:17 AM   #43
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Can someone please explain why increasing the "debt ceiling" is such a bad thing? You guys think China is going to come in and seize the US? Americans seem to have no problems with the high "debt ceiling" when it concerns funding large scale destruction like wars...what is wrong if it is being used for much needed infrastructure improvements and social safety nets?
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Old 23rd September 2021, 03:06 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
Can someone please explain why increasing the "debt ceiling" is such a bad thing? You guys think China is going to come in and seize the US? Americans seem to have no problems with the high "debt ceiling" when it concerns funding large scale destruction like wars...what is wrong if it is being used for much needed infrastructure improvements and social safety nets?
We can't explain why it's a bad thing because even the weasels who designed the process don't actually think it's a bad thing. They just want to appear fiscally responsible and make their developmentally disabled voter base think they're voting for conservative heroes.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 03:18 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
For all the foreign peeps let me break down exactly what is happening. This is not an exaggeration or a misrepresentation.

1. Congress passes the National Budget which lays out things that the government is required to spend money on.
2. Congress then passes the Tax Plan, which lays out how much money the government will have to spend.
3. The President, as head of the Executive Branch, is required by law to use the money available from #2 to buy everything in #1.
4. If #2 is a bigger number than #1 (which within a rounding error it literally always is) he has to borrow money to make up the difference.
5. There is a rule in place set by Congress that the President can only borrow so much money.
6. If he needs to borrow more he needs Congresses permission to borrow more. Again this the President asking Congress to borrow money because Congress says "You have to spend this much money" and "Here's how much money we're giving you."
7. Congress can say no. As in Congress can literally go "Here's 10 dollars. I order you to spend 15 dollars. The highest amount you can borrow is 3 dollars. No I will not let you borrow anymore." This is what causes a shutdown.

It's insane. It's so functionally insane.
Why does it cause a Government shutdown? What is the actual point of the shutdown?
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Old 23rd September 2021, 03:20 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Why does it cause a Government shutdown? What is the actual point of the shutdown?
I think that is one of the parties involved taking aLL the toys and stomping off home in a huff.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 03:31 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
Stupid, imaginary problems require stupid, imaginary solutions.

Go through reconciliation and pass a bill raising the debt ceiling by $1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (that's a trillion-trillion dollars). Then call the bill something like the "The Debt Ceiling Is Forking Stupid But Some Dumbasses Think That Holding The Country Hostage Every Six Months Is Okay, So We Are Passing This Stupidly Named Bill To Not Only Solve The Problem For The Foreseeable Future But Also To Draw Attention To And Remind Our Descendants How Stupid The Debt Ceiling Is" Act of 2021.
I can get behind this
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Old 23rd September 2021, 04:05 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
Can someone please explain why increasing the "debt ceiling" is such a bad thing?
It's not a bad thing. It's a legal technicality that was created to make another legal technicality easier. But most people don't understand what the debt ceiling actually is and how it relates to the budget. So certain politicians use it as a cudgel to appear fiscally responsible.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 04:52 AM   #49
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Won't there be quite a drop in the borrowing needed now the USA has pulled out of Afghanistan?
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Old 23rd September 2021, 04:54 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Won't there be quite a drop in the borrowing needed now the USA has pulled out of Afghanistan?
War Hawks don't die, they just move nests. Military spending only goes one way. Saber rattling with China isn't free.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 05:53 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
Can someone please explain why increasing the "debt ceiling" is such a bad thing? You guys think China is going to come in and seize the US? Americans seem to have no problems with the high "debt ceiling" when it concerns funding large scale destruction like wars...what is wrong if it is being used for much needed infrastructure improvements and social safety nets?
It isn't. But the Right sells is as being functionally the same thing as overdrawing a bank account or racking up a huge credit card bill or a household going into debt or being underwater on your mortgage when "government debt" is a functionally very different thing.

It's them appealing to that whole stupid "Listen. I've been running a roofing repair business for 20 years and if I ran my business like the government does I would have been out of business years ago!" demographic that could not be missing the point more if they tried.

Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Why does it cause a Government shutdown? What is the actual point of the shutdown?
Well because without an authorized budget the government has to shut down because there's no money to pay for anything.

The actual point is the Right holding the American economy hostage with a made up crisis that they created to get what they want.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 06:12 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It isn't. But the Right sells is as being functionally the same thing as overdrawing a bank account or racking up a huge credit card bill or a household going into debt or being underwater on your mortgage when "government debt" is a functionally very different thing.

It's them appealing to that whole stupid "Listen. I've been running a roofing repair business for 20 years and if I ran my business like the government does I would have been out of business years ago!" demographic that could not being missing the point more if they tried.



Well because without an authorized budget the government has to shut down because there's no money to pay for anything.

The actual point is the Right holding the American economy hostage with a made up crisis that they created to get what they want.
Probably dumb question but couldn't they carry on until the money runs out? ie if the current ceiling covers 80% of the budget required then start on that 80% whilst spending the next few months negotiating the increase. if not, then couldn't they defer the excess spend to next year and just take longer to do stuff ie we can afford to do 80% of the stuff we wanted this year, so we will and the remaining 20% will roll into next year....?

As I say, probably dumb questions - ETA I'm guessing it's because they'd then need another vote to defer said 20% of work.

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Old 23rd September 2021, 06:17 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
Probably dumb question but couldn't they carry on until the money runs out? ie if the current ceiling covers 80% of the budget required then start on that 80% whilst spending the next few months negotiating the increase. if not, then couldn't they defer the excess spend to next year and just take longer to do stuff ie we can afford to do 80% of the stuff we wanted this year, so we will and the remaining 20% will roll into next year....?

As I say, probably dumb questions - ETA I'm guessing it's because they'd then need another vote to defer said 20% of work.
Without going too deep into some complicated economic/political stuff if/when the debt limit is hit the United States Treasury department does go into what is called "Extraordinary Measures" to keep some essential services running. The government doesn't just turn off the lights, lock the doors, and head out.

A lot of people (troops mainly) do just keep working as normal without pay which is superfun let me tell you from experience.

But that's temporary and can only go on for so long eventually the US would literally default on it's debt which would be... bad. Very bad.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 07:15 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
Can someone please explain why increasing the "debt ceiling" is such a bad thing? You guys think China is going to come in and seize the US? Americans seem to have no problems with the high "debt ceiling" when it concerns funding large scale destruction like wars...what is wrong if it is being used for much needed infrastructure improvements and social safety nets?
To add to what others have stated, the Right adds in a lot of scare mongering about the debt. They only do this when the left is in power, but that's another story.

So we'll soon see the various conservative talk shows and social media influencers making claims about China coming to collect on the debt, like, RIGHT NOW! They're going to seize our National Parks, for example. Or maybe oil and gas reserves. The claims usually focus on culturally significant things, not military type things or overseas territories.

Here's one old claim, there will be more coming up:
Hal Turner Claims that the Feds will grant Eminent Domain to China so that it can collect on debt. (FALSE)
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Old 23rd September 2021, 08:20 AM   #55
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Okay here's the problem.

Here's the people who are bothered by a government shutdown.

- People who aren't sociopaths and actually care about other people.
- People dependent on government programs.

Here's the people who aren't bothered by a government shutdowns.

- Trolls
- Nihilistic sociopaths who just want to watch the world burn.
- "Selective Selfish Personal Anarchy" types who think we need to be punished for letting the government "get too big."
- Old money types who are both independently wealthy and completely detached from their own wealth.
- People who hate people on government programs just on spite.

Of those two groups groups which one makes up the Republican base?
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Old 23rd September 2021, 08:26 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Of those two groups groups which one makes up the Republican base?
The base?

- People dependent on government programs.

Republican leadership has the ghouls. Their electorate just want to let the face-eating leopards roam free like Fox News tells them to.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 08:30 AM   #57
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Oh no you see social security and massive farm subsidies and tax breaks for the wealthy aren't government programs because... ah *mumble mumble mumble.... pulls fire alarm and runs away*

Which is exactly why welfare and foodstamp stop during a government shutdown but social security checks don't.

Hell I'm a military retiree, a group I'm sure leans Conservative on a demographic/statistical level. I still get my pension during a government shutdown because "It's funded differently now stop asking" but active duty troops actually still in service don't get and still have to work which is every possible way of ****** up.

"We hate government handouts" has never required the Right to not be massive hypocrites and not still get their cheddar cheddar dollar dollar *cash register sound.*
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Old 23rd September 2021, 09:04 AM   #58
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Government shutdowns due to the budget not being approved are rather routine. The agencies that have not been funded shut down. It is inconvenient but not a disaster.

The US government defaulting on debt obligations has not yet happened. Right now we are headed for the debt default cliff. This will cause immense disruption to our nation’s financial system and possibly drop us into a severe recession.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 09:06 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
This will cause immense disruption to our nation’s financial system and possibly drop us into a severe recession.
Which will hand the Republicans the 2022 and 2024 elections on a silver platter.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 10:19 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Government shutdowns due to the budget not being approved are rather routine. The agencies that have not been funded shut down. It is inconvenient but not a disaster.

The US government defaulting on debt obligations has not yet happened. Right now we are headed for the debt default cliff. This will cause immense disruption to our nation’s financial system and possibly drop us into a severe recession.
I don't think we'll default.

That said, our (U.S.) economy has a lot to do with the stability or our currency and the perception that we will always meet our debt obligations. People, corporations and nations buy literal trillions of dollars of U.S. debt bonds at rates barely above inflation and well below what they could get on with stocks or other bonds - and they do this because it is considered to be the "safe" investment.

The day U.S. bonds stop being safe is the day the U.S. really needs to reckon with our borrowing habit, as people looks for different "safe" places to store money. The debt is structured such that nobody can demand that we pay back all their bonds at once, but it could get more difficult to actually sell enough bonds to fund the annual deficit.

That, and the dollar falls steeply against other currencies. Things we export get cheaper, but things we import get more expensive. Say goodbye to cheap TVs.

Also, cue the conservative media and social media referring to the debt as "loans". Which is sort of true but is usually done to make people not realize its just the plain old U.S. Savings Bonds that our grandparents were always touting as the safe responsible thing to buy. By portraying them as loans they can scaremonger into scenarios where China wants the loans all payed back RIGHT NOW OR ELSE. Which ain't gonna happen, there's no legal mechanism to allow for that. But they'll scaremonger anyway, when the real risk is that the dollar severely deflates, our new debt gets more expensive and difficult to source, and people's saving lose immense value.

It's the loss of value and faith in the world's safest money storage medium that can really cause worldwide mayhem.

That said, I'm betting the Dems will bite the bullet and ram through the raise on the debt ceiling via reconciliation. It plays into the Republican's hands, but it is still a far less irresponsible thing than the Big Default.

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Old 23rd September 2021, 10:32 AM   #61
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Yeah this is one of those things were you sort of have to walk into the obvious bait and just power through because the alternatives are just too bad. It sucks, but it is what it is.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 10:35 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Also, cue the conservative media and social media referring to the debt as "loans". Which is sort of true but is usually done to make people not realize its just the plain old U.S. Savings Bonds that our grandparents were always touting as the safe responsible thing to buy. By portraying them as loans they can scaremonger into scenarios where China wants the loans all payed back RIGHT NOW OR ELSE. Which ain't gonna happen, there's no legal mechanism to allow for that. But they'll scaremonger anyway, when the real risk is that the dollar severely deflates, our new debt gets more expensive and difficult to source, and people's saving lose immense value.
The Republicans are going to push hard to sell the narrative that because the unAmerican Demoncrats has gotten into bed with the communist that we're are one "missed payment" away from having to park the entire country down the street at a friend's house and throw a tarp over it so China doesn't repossess it in the night which, as you say, is so far away from how it actually works as to be full on theater of the absurd surrealism.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 11:40 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty View Post
It's not a bad thing. It's a legal technicality that was created to make another legal technicality easier. But most people don't understand what the debt ceiling actually is and how it relates to the budget. So certain politicians use it as a cudgel to appear fiscally responsible.
Pretty much this.
I think that the huge deficits are going to do huge damage to the US eventually, but, frankly, neither party puts a high priority on doing some substantial about it.
THE GOP is by far the bigger hypocrites when it comes to deficits, but I don't see the Dems anxious to take the hard steps necessary either.
Tney you have the "huge deficits don't matter" idiots.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 11:43 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Government shutdowns due to the budget not being approved are rather routine. The agencies that have not been funded shut down. It is inconvenient but not a disaster.

The US government defaulting on debt obligations has not yet happened. Right now we are headed for the debt default cliff. This will cause immense disruption to our nation’s financial system and possibly drop us into a severe recession.
This. I think way too much attention is being given to the Government Shutdown angle. A shutdown,though bad,might be one of the less damaging things to come from a default.
The previious shutdowns did not disrupt the economy that much. That won't be the case with a default.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 11:44 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
The base?

- People dependent on government programs.

Republican leadership has the ghouls. Their electorate just want to let the face-eating leopards roam free like Fox News tells them to.
ANd your solution is.....
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Old 23rd September 2021, 11:47 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
ANd your solution is.....
Civil war, obviously. Wouldn't you agree?
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Old 23rd September 2021, 11:47 AM   #67
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At this rate we're going to have a Civil War between the people who do and don't think we're going to have a Civil War.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 11:48 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Oh for pity's sake. McConnell openly flouts that he's dumping the issue on the Democrats and we know he had a long history of doing anything to sabotage Obama and you are saying the Democrats are the one's messing up?



I hope they go with the couple trillion dollar coin option.
I don't think the Dems infighting is helping much.
And I repeat, who is really to blame won't matter much. The Dems will take the heat, the party in power always does.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 12:32 PM   #69
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The GOP used a Two Santa Clauses tactic to con America for nearly 40 years
This scam has been killing wages and enriching billionaires for decades


Quote:
Here’s how it works, laid it out in simple summary:

First, when Republicans control the federal government, and particularly the White House, spend money like a drunken sailor and run up the US debt as far and as fast as possible. This produces three results – it stimulates the economy thus making people think that the GOP can produce a good economy, it raises the debt dramatically, and it makes people think that Republicans are the “tax-cut Santa Claus.”

Second, when a Democrat is in the White House, scream about the national debt as loudly and frantically as possible, freaking out about how “our children will have to pay for it!” and “we have to cut spending to solve the crisis!” This will force the Democrats in power to cut their own social safety net programs, thus shooting their welfare-of-the-American-people Santa Claus.

Think back to Ronald Reagan, who more than tripled the US debt from a mere $800 billion to $2.6 trillion in his 8 years. That spending produced a massive stimulus to the economy, and the biggest non-wartime increase in the debt in history. Nary a peep from Republicans about that 218% increase in our debt; they were just fine with it.

And then along came Bill Clinton. The screams and squeals from the GOP about the “unsustainable debt” of nearly $3 trillion were loud, constant, and echoed incessantly by media from CBS to NPR. Newt Gingrich rode the wave of “unsustainable debt” hysteria into power, as the GOP took control of the House for the first time lasting more than a term since 1930, even though the increase in our national debt under Clinton was only about 37%.

---

Now we’re back to a Republican president, and once again deficits be damned. Between their tax cut and the nearly-trillion dollar spending increase passed on February 8th, in the first year-and-a-month of Trump’s administration they’ve spent more stimulating the economy (and driving up debt by more than $2 trillion, when you include interest) than the entire Obama presidency.

---

Republican strategist Jude Wanniski first proposed his Two Santa Clauses strategy in 1974, when Richard Nixon resigned in disgrace and the future of the Republican Party was so dim that books and articles were widely suggesting the GOP was about to go the way of the Whigs. There was genuine despair across the Party, particularly when Jerry Ford began stumbling as he climbed the steps to Air Force One and couldn’t even beat an unknown peanut farmer from rural Georgia for the presidency.

Wanniski was tired of the GOP failing to win elections. And, he reasoned, it was happening because the Democrats had been viewed since the New Deal as the Santa Claus party (taking care of people’s needs and the General Welfare), while the GOP, opposing everything from Social Security to Medicare to unemployment insurance, was widely seen as the party of Scrooge.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 02:57 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I don't think the Dems infighting is helping much.
And I repeat, who is really to blame won't matter much. The Dems will take the heat, the party in power always does.
You always blame the Democrats and ignore anything bad the GOP does. Why should I care what you think now?
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Old 23rd September 2021, 04:59 PM   #71
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dudalb:
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The Dems cannot afford to mess this up. And, so far, they seem to be doing exactly that with the circular firing squad..and I blame the Progressive Wing , and they refusal to compromise with the centrists...for that.
Also dudalb

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I don't think the Dems infighting is helping much.
And I repeat, who is really to blame won't matter much. The Dems will take the heat, the party in power always does.
dudalb is worried about the Dems getting the blame and also for the Dem Civil War. Answer: let's blame the Progressives and the Dems in general.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 24th September 2021, 06:08 PM   #72
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You always blame the Democrats and ignore anything bad the GOP does. Why should I care what you think now?
Are you joking? have you seen lots of what I have said about the GOP?
Or is ANY criticism of the Democratic Party forbidden?
I think the GOP Ha s gone insane and is evil.
I think the Dems have their hearts in the right place but seem to be messing up badly in fighting the GOP.
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Last edited by dudalb; 24th September 2021 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 24th September 2021, 06:10 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You always blame the Democrats and ignore anything bad the GOP does. Why should I care what you think now?
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Old 24th September 2021, 06:10 PM   #74
dudalb
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
dudalb:


Also dudalb



dudalb is worried about the Dems getting the blame and also for the Dem Civil War. Answer: let's blame the Progressives and the Dems in general.
Anbody with any brains should worry about the Dems getting the blame, Democrats most of all. since it might well cost them the Congress next year.
I see the Democrats are Progressives are holy and incapable of error in the eyes of many here.
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Old 24th September 2021, 06:18 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Anbody with any brains should worry about the Dems getting the blame, Democrats most of all. since it might well cost them the Congress next year.
I see the Democrats are Progressives are holy and incapable of error in the eyes of many here.
Yes, but you are blaming the Progressives when the blame lies squarely with so-called centrists.

So you are blaming the wrong people and making demands to the wrong people about who should fall into line.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 27th September 2021, 06:20 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yes, but you are blaming the Progressives when the blame lies squarely with so-called centrists.

So you are blaming the wrong people and making demands to the wrong people about who should fall into line.
It's hilarious in this example because it's not even the centrists, broadly speaking, that are screwing over the party. There's a dozen or so austerity hawks that are derailing the whole Biden domestic agenda, but I guess some sacred cows can't be criticized.

The centrists and the progressives have already brokered a deal they are both happy with.
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Old 27th September 2021, 05:32 PM   #77
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Get rid of that 66% majority rule. No other senate has it in the world that I'm aware of. Stop calling it the nuclear option. It's the sane option.
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Old 27th September 2021, 06:38 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's hilarious in this example because it's not even the centrists, broadly speaking, that are screwing over the party. There's a dozen or so austerity hawks that are derailing the whole Biden domestic agenda, but I guess some sacred cows can't be criticized.

The centrists and the progressives have already brokered a deal they are both happy with.
Well sure, but that's only if you see the political spectrum correctly, with the Republicans being at the fringe flirting constantly with fascism and the Democrats on average hovering at the center. We have a left, of course, but their agenda is barely paid lip service by most Democrats, let alone truly serviced.
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Old 28th September 2021, 12:48 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Well sure, but that's only if you see the political spectrum correctly, with the Republicans being at the fringe flirting constantly with fascism and the Democrats on average hovering at the center. We have a left, of course, but their agenda is barely paid lip service by most Democrats, let alone truly serviced.
Maybe because there is not that much public support for the progressive agenda ?
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Old 28th September 2021, 12:52 PM   #80
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And just keep up the "we don't need no stinking centrists" atitude, guys. GOP will love that.
I think the probabiluty of viable third party made up of the despised "Centrists" is on the rise daily.
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