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Old 28th September 2021, 12:56 PM   #81
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And just keep up the "we don't need no stinking centrists" atitude, guys. GOP will love that.
I think the probabiluty of viable third party made up of the despised "Centrists" is on the rise daily.
"we don't need Sinema" is objectively a correct opinion, and no effort should be spared to primary her when the time comes.

Manchin is a different story.
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Old 28th September 2021, 01:04 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
"we don't need Sinema" is objectively a correct opinion, and no effort should be spared to primary her when the time comes.

Manchin is a different story.

If you think a Progressive can win the general electon in Arizona, you are living in fantasy land.
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Old 28th September 2021, 01:06 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If you think a Progressive can win the general electon in Arizona, you are living in fantasy land.
There are 2 Democratic Senators in Arizona, and only one of them is acting like Sinema.
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Old 28th September 2021, 04:15 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Maybe because there is not that much public support for the progressive agenda ?
There's a great deal of support for progressive policies. For example, this poll showed that over 60% of Americans believe the federal government should be responsible for providing healthcare. That's pretty ******* progressive.

The issue is - and congratulations, ****-sipping Republicans, for beating down the citizenry with your obstructionism - that people feel like they have to fight tooth and nail just to preserve progress already made, such that further progress feels impossible.
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Old 28th September 2021, 07:17 PM   #85
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Back to the main topic.
Yellin says she can do some mitigation on the results of a default for a couple of weeks, but by Oct 18th the full impact will happen.
The Government will shut down on Oct 1st because that is when the current budget expires.n No way to stop that unless some kind of funding is voted. Usually there would be some stopgap spending bills purposed, but that seems not to be happening this time. I take that back..one was purposed but killed by Moscow Mitch.
So the Government shuts down on Monday, and the rest of the really bad stuff happens over a two week peroid.
it is just insane it has come to this.
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Old 28th September 2021, 07:24 PM   #86
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late breaking news: Senate Democrars are floating another stopgop spending measure that would keep the government open through December, and would not be connected to the debt ceiling hike, but I suspect that McConell will kill that as well.
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Old 28th September 2021, 07:25 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Maybe because there is not that much public support for the progressive agenda ?
Really? I doubt this statement.
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Old 29th September 2021, 03:34 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Really? I doubt this statement.

You're correct. Progressive Political Policies Popular.

Essentially the Democratic party exists at the middle of the political spectrum
to about the center right of the spectrum. When we talk about the center or
moderates we mean between the Republican and Democratic parties, not
the political center of the country as a whole.


I really like the trillion dollar coin idea, because we in the United States have
gotten pretty deep in debt. At thirty trillion dollars the country has borrowed
about 75% of maximum debt. If it reaches forty trillion economic growth
generally stops.

I'm assuming the coin works like money and due to the multiplication factor
generates a good amount of inflation.
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Old 29th September 2021, 04:52 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Solitaire View Post
You're correct. Progressive Political Policies Popular.

Essentially the Democratic party exists at the middle of the political spectrum
to about the center right of the spectrum. When we talk about the center or
moderates we mean between the Republican and Democratic parties, not
the political center of the country as a whole.


I really like the trillion dollar coin idea, because we in the United States have
gotten pretty deep in debt. At thirty trillion dollars the country has borrowed
about 75% of maximum debt. If it reaches forty trillion economic growth
generally stops.

I'm assuming the coin works like money and due to the multiplication factor
generates a good amount of inflation.
Surprisingly, no. The coin would basically sit in a vault at the treasury, collecting dust. There might be some tour groups who get to come in and see the Trillion dollar coin, but it won't be in circulation. Since it won't be in circulation, no inflation.

The government would be using the putative value of the coin to justify spending money on government programs, but when you work out the numbers, it would be exactly the same amount of inflation as raising the debt ceiling. Raise the Debt Ceiling by a Trillion dollars, raise the Debt Ceiling by a Trillion-Trillion dollars, mint a Trillion dollar coin, mint a Trillion-Trillion dollar coin, all adds up to the same thing as far as inflation and the economy are concerned.

After the coin is no longer needed, Congress can pass a law basically buying it back from the Fed, and then melt it down. Value created, used, and then destroyed. It would all balance out.

(The idea of trying to steal and spend the coin would be an interesting topic though...)
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Old 29th September 2021, 08:25 PM   #90
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These debt ceiling shenanigans prove that liberal spending policies threaten to destroy the economy.
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Old 30th September 2021, 11:18 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If you think a Progressive can win the general electon in Arizona, you are living in fantasy land.
A progressive can win. But, let's start small and run a Democrat.
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Old 30th September 2021, 11:51 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
"we don't need Sinema" is objectively a correct opinion, and no effort should be spared to primary her when the time comes.

Manchin is a different story.
Yeah. Manchin is sort of a best case scenario for that seat although I doubt he's going to get re-elected even if he runs in 2024 and it would be nice if he just stopped worrying about it and looked more to the needs of the people of this state and not their self-destructive wishes.

(He only squeaked by last time because the GOP couldn't have found a worse candidate and it wasn't a presidential year. Had that election been in 2020 Manchin would have gotten wrecked no matter who ran against him.)

I sort of miss Lyndon Johnson. He'd be showing Manchin the draft indictment of his kid for all that pharma crap while showing him the massive check for a new highway connecting Morgantown and Moundsville. We'd already have universal healthcare, 15 supreme court justices and DC would be a state.
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Old 30th September 2021, 12:43 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If you think a Progressive can win the general electon in Arizona, you are living in fantasy land.
Sinema won by campaigning on a progressive agenda. It's only when she was seated that she became a Republican.
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Old 30th September 2021, 01:51 PM   #94
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https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/sena...ry?id=80322618
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Old 30th September 2021, 02:58 PM   #95
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That's just to stop a shutdown. The Republicans still will not agree to pay the debts of 2020
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Old 30th September 2021, 06:04 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
That's just to stop a shutdown. The Republicans still will not agree to pay the debts of 2020
Because they know the Dems can raise the debt limit without them. Which they Dems will indeed do, after suggesting otherwise. The Republican's want to blame the Dems for the debt and for not being bipartisan, so this plays into Republican strategy.

But raising the debt ceiling is the right thing to do and the Dems can do it through reconciliation, no needed to worry about the filibuster that way.

We're not going to default on the world's favorite reserve currency.
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Old 1st October 2021, 01:58 AM   #97
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The Dems are very good at forming circular firing squads.
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Old 1st October 2021, 04:26 AM   #98
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Don't worry, you'll get your civil war in December when the stopgap funding measure runs out, pinkie swear,
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Old 1st October 2021, 08:08 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Solitaire View Post
In my opinion...

One problem with claims about "popularity of progressive policies" is that it is easy to claim you want the government to do something when its a vague, theoretical concept, but when details are fleshed out, people's opinions may change.

People have conflicting interests.... they want the government programs, but they don't want to see tax increases to pay for them. They want government regulations/control in some areas, but not when it could impact them.

Ask people "Should the government provide free college/increased social security benefits, etc." and a majority will say "sure". Ask them "Should the government raise taxes to pay for free college/increased social security benefits", and at least some people who were OK with the concept of free college will change their minds. They have contradictory ideals... wanting 2 things that are in conflict with each other.

Or ask people "should we have 'medicare for all'" and the majority may say "yup". But what does that mean? A true 'single payer' system (such as what Bernie Sanders campaigned on)? One that is a mix of private and public? People who say "Yes I want medicare for all" may start to balk if they find out that as part of it, they will no longer have their own private insurance.

Note that I am not giving judgement whether "progressive policies" are themselves bad..... I am just saying that a politician looking to get elected/re-elected needs to look at policies as a complete package, not just the bits that sound good in an opinion poll, but how implementing those policies might affect voters who are currently holding contradictory interests.

And yes, I do realize that some of these policies could be paid for by "taxing the wealthy". But with trillions of dollars in debt and crumbling infrastructure, simply taxing the wealthy probably won't be enough for a progressive government to do everything they want, and some tax increases on middle/lower class would probably be necessary.
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Old 1st October 2021, 08:28 AM   #100
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My experience is the opposite. People like the policies when laid out but kneejerk on labels. Like how people liked the Affordable Care Act but hated that gosh darn Obamacare.
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Old 1st October 2021, 08:54 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
My experience is the opposite. People like the policies when laid out but kneejerk on labels. Like how people liked the Affordable Care Act but hated that gosh darn Obamacare.
I am not talking 'labels'... I'm talking about actual side effects of a particular piece of legislation.

And yes, lots of people like the Affordable Care Act. It provided health care to millions of people who would otherwise have not been covered. But for all its benefits, its impact on your average voter was relatively minor. Most people with health care through work or government programs didn't really see a change. Even the 'mandate' fee was actually pretty low.

A more expensive program (e.g. one that requires large changes in tax rates, regulations, etc. that affects almost everyone) will be a more difficult sell.
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Old 1st October 2021, 10:58 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I am not talking 'labels'... I'm talking about actual side effects of a particular piece of legislation.

And yes, lots of people like the Affordable Care Act. It provided health care to millions of people who would otherwise have not been covered. But for all its benefits, its impact on your average voter was relatively minor. Most people with health care through work or government programs didn't really see a change. Even the 'mandate' fee was actually pretty low.

A more expensive program (e.g. one that requires large changes in tax rates, regulations, etc. that affects almost everyone) will be a more difficult sell.
It shouldn't be. We have 40 years of heavy tax propaganda where people will object to a $1000 tax hike that saves them far more than that in healthcare costs. They complain about possible governmental waste and whatever meanwhile the health insurance industry pays an army of people to try to not pay your bills so they can keep the money.

Or when the state underfunds road budgets nobody thinks in terms of having to replace tires as a worse value than being taxed like $50 more per year.

Soaking billionaires won't pay for everything, but tax revenue is more the side benefit of avoiding a plutocracy than the other way around. Redistributive economics also redistributes the tax burden.

Most of the problems with progressive politics is that it's advocates want to put an emphasis on abstract notions of fairness and social justice when it would be far more effective to talk about it making life better for everyone that doesn't have a hording disorder w/r/t money.
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Old 5th October 2021, 03:35 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
My experience is the opposite. People like the policies when laid out but kneejerk on labels. Like how people liked the Affordable Care Act but hated that gosh darn Obamacare.
Which is why I think that progressives should drop the term SOcialist when talking about their policies. It's just plain bad marketing.
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Old 5th October 2021, 07:56 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Which is why I think that progressives should drop the term SOcialist when talking about their policies. It's just plain bad marketing.
I have never seen the Dems using the term socialist. They are quite aware of the utterly ignorant reactions the word encourages among the repubs. In fact, the people who use the word for the policies are the repugnicans themselves. The only place where I have seen the term used by American dems and libs is in this forum.
Besides, how long do you wish to coddle and validate this ignorance among your fellow conservatives?
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Old 5th October 2021, 09:14 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Which is why I think that progressives should drop the term SOcialist when talking about their policies. It's just plain bad marketing.
For a person who keeps claiming how the Dems are not aggressive enough, you do spend a lot of time advising Dems on how to use kid gloves while dealing with the current crop of Republican congressmen.
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Old 8th October 2021, 04:24 AM   #106
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What is messed up is the idea that Congress would be in charge of how much is too much debt - that decision will always be made by the financial markets, and we will know well in advance when it becomes more expensive to raise money.
The only thing that the Debt ceiling shenanigans can do is destroy faith in the political, not financial, ability of the US to service its debts.
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