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Old 2nd October 2021, 07:26 AM   #81
JoeMorgue
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If you are stuck at "Okay but one side just CAN'T be that crazy so... BOTHSIDEISM is the only answer!" then what exactly are we supposed to do?

We're getting to the point where you are demonstrating the problem with American politics perfectly fine on your own, you obviously don't need us to explain it to you.

The mythology that one side can't be at fault is just wrong in this case.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 07:32 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I am looking for education and information.
I am not looking to be a foil for your political grandstanding.
If you have a point to make, please make it, with citations, as per the norms of reasoned debate. Thank you.
Republicans follow a man who tells Lies that cannot be believed because they violate the laws of physics. This would not have been tolerated in the 70s and 80 in America the Criticism Reagans got,, over his Gama Ray Laser Idea points that out..
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Old 2nd October 2021, 07:32 AM   #83
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I am looking for education and information.
I am not looking to be a foil for your political grandstanding.
If you have a point to make, please make it, with citations, as per the norms of reasoned debate. Thank you.
There are a couple of events in GOP history where the Party deliberately ignored scientific consensus in favor of ideology.

The AIDS epidemic was such a case, later Global Warming. The lack of deterrent of 3-strike laws, mandatory minimums or the death penalty are other examples.


Democrats sometimes had the same issue, but in their defense, they usually went up against the softer sciences of economics, not physics.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 07:42 AM   #84
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And this is a prime example of the damage that the ProudlyWrong and their push for a post-fact world have done to discourse.

One of their biggest, most toxic tactics in arguing is to always talk as if there is no difference between a correct opinion and a popular opinion. They have convinced a lot of people that being non-apologetically correct on a factual level and smugly "right because I know I'm right" are the exact same thing.

How many active threads on this board right now are functionally:

"I'm telling you people the Earth revolves around the Sun!"
"Oh, that's not a very non-biased opinion. Can't you admit there are extremists on the other side as well? It's not that black and white. Sounds like you aren't very tolerant of people who don't share your opinions. So what I hear you saying is you want people who think the Earth doesn't revolve around the sun to be carried off by jack-booted thugs in the night and take to reeducation camps. Can't we compromise and agree that the Sun revolves around the Earth some of the time?"

Much like the anti-intellectuals have turned "Freedom" into a sad, childish "You can't tell me what to do" ism they have turned intellectual standards into a sad, childish "You can't tell me what to think" ism.

Leaning toward being factually correct is not "a bias" no matter what the ProudlyWrong tell you. It's just not being an idiot on purpose because you're so wrapped up in "think for yourself."
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Old 2nd October 2021, 08:17 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
How many active threads on this board right now are functionally:

"I'm telling you people the Earth revolves around the Sun!"
"Oh, that's not a very non-biased opinion. Can't you admit there are extremists on the other side as well? It's not that black and white. Sounds like you aren't very tolerant of people who don't share your opinions. So what I hear you saying is you want people who think the Earth doesn't revolve around the sun to be carried off by jack-booted thugs in the night and take to reeducation camps. Can't we compromise and agree that the Sun revolves around the Earth some of the time?"
I'd call that hyperbole, if we weren't in a situation where people are outright rejecting the germ theory of disease and taking pet de-wormer to treat a viral infection because their facebook pages tell them to (and, Cosmic Yak, they really truly are doing exactly that). Questioning heliocentrism can't be that far off.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 08:51 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Though I think the electorial college needs to either go or be adjusted, I don't think the Constituion is a suicide pact and am very skeptical that #2 is a problem. The whole idea is to give smaller states some means to protect themselves from being trampeled over by the larger states. And I do not like the idea of a overwhelmngly powerful central goverment that can reduce the states to just administrative conveiences...a trend that seems to be gaining power among "progressives".
And a lot of what you describe, though I agree they are serious problems, are going to tough to fix. You can't fix things like 6,5 and 9 by law.\
It's all those factors combined that effectively render the system a suicide pact.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 09:18 AM   #87
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I don't think I'll be posting in this thread. Though as a Canadian I have a great interest in the topic. For, as a previous prime minister of ours said more than fifty years ago, "Living next to you is in some ways like sleeping with an elephant. No matter how friendly and even-tempered is the beast, if I can call it that, one is affected by every twitch and grunt," (Pierre Trudeau at his "Washington Press Club Speech")

Keep it coming. I'll be listening intently to the grunting.


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Old 2nd October 2021, 10:45 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If you are stuck at "Okay but one side just CAN'T be that crazy so... BOTHSIDEISM is the only answer!" then what exactly are we supposed to do?

We're getting to the point where you are demonstrating the problem with American politics perfectly fine on your own, you obviously don't need us to explain it to you.

The mythology that one side can't be at fault is just wrong in this case.
Assuming this was addressed to me, I was asking for evidence. That's kind if what we do on a sceptics' forum.
I was also asking for input from Republicans, to see if the depiction of them on this forum, and in this thread, is accurate.
Not sure why this is a problem for you. Seems reasonable to me.
OTOH, you may have been talking to someone else entirely, in which case, apologies, and I hope that person responds.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 10:50 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Assuming this was addressed to me, I was asking for evidence.
Evidence of what? That people who take horse dewormer instead of vaccines are wrong? The people who think there's a massive organized voter fraud happening exist? The people who think Hillary Clinton has a child sex dungeon under a pizza parlor? The people who think Donald Trump is still the legit President? The people who think storming the Capital openly calling to murder elected officials during a vote certification isn't a coup?

Quote:
That's kind if what we do on a sceptics' forum.
The "Oh I thought this was a place for Skeptics" routine isn't exactly making you seem less like exactly what I'm talking about.

Quote:
I was also asking for input from Republicans, to see if the depiction of them on this forum, and in this thread, is accurate.
Sure. We'll get all the non-troll Republicans on this board on that as soon as they actually exist.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 10:54 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
There are a couple of events in GOP history where the Party deliberately ignored scientific consensus in favor of ideology.

The AIDS epidemic was such a case, later Global Warming. The lack of deterrent of 3-strike laws, mandatory minimums or the death penalty are other examples.


Democrats sometimes had the same issue, but in their defense, they usually went up against the softer sciences of economics, not physics.
I was told that 'Republicans do not believe in the laws of physics'.
3-strike laws, minimum sentences and the death penalty are not examples of the laws of physics.
I would also point out that there is a difference between the Party and its supporters. This is connected to my earlier question about the range of beliefs within the set of 'Republican' or 'Democrat'.
Is it a fact that no Republicans, be they party members, members of Congress, activists or merely voters, believe in the laws of physics, or was this just hyperbole? Is there evidence to support this view?

Is that evidence enough to contradict this?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackbre...h=2050bfd616da

Republicans tend to have less faith in science than Democrats- less than 45%, in fact, have a lot of faith in it. That much is true. However, only 67% of Democrats exhibit strong levels of faith in science, and this is against a backdrop of a general decline in belief in science among Americans as a whole.
That's some way from saying Republicans as a whole 'do not believe in the laws of physics'- and I refer you again to my comment about political grandstanding. I am not interested in propaganda.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 10:55 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Democrats sometimes had the same issue, but in their defense, they usually went up against the softer sciences of economics, not physics.
Democrats are wrong all the time. The difference is:

1. They are wrong, not openly defiant of reality and facts as concepts.
2. Their wrongness occurs naturally and organically instead of being "Everyone knows believes in this conspiracy theory because Alex Jones or Trump said so."
3. It's nowhere near on the same level.
4. They aren't proud of it.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 10:57 AM   #92
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*Rolls eyes* Stop the presses. Yet another person who thinks the Republicans should be absolved of all their sins because someone on the left was "hyperbolic" in an offhand comment in a street-level discussion and that deserves all the attention.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 10:59 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Evidence of what? That people who take horse dewormer instead of vaccines are wrong? The people who think there's a massive organized voter fraud happening exist? The people who think Hillary Clinton has a child sex dungeon under a pizza parlor? The people who think Donald Trump is still the legit President? The people who think storming the Capital openly calling to murder elected officials during a vote certification isn't a coup?
Really not sure who you're talking to, or where you're getting these ideas from.
I'll ask again: do these people represent the totality of Republicans, a majority of Republicans, or a minority of Republicans?

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The "Oh I thought this was a place for Skeptics" routine isn't exactly making you seem less like exactly what I'm talking about.
Scepticism is not about evidence-free ranting.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Sure. We'll get all the non-troll Republicans on this board on that as soon as they actually exist.
You should read more threads on this forum. They're here. Do you think it possible that your unrelenting hostility may be putting them off posting? You have already had that effect on me, and I'm not a Republican, nor even an American.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 11:02 AM   #94
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Listen if this is some piece of performance art where you pretend to turn into an alt-right troll by slowly adopting more and more of their arguments, more and more of their dog whistles, more and more of the language, and more and more of their opinions so you can teach us a lesson you can just skip to the end, we don't need to see all the stations of the cross.

"Do you have to be so mean to the people who elected and defend and make excuses for the President who ordered his cult to storm the Capital and killed 4 people? Your attitude is really off-putting."

Yes. Yes I do.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 11:08 AM   #95
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Updated:

"I'm telling you people the Earth revolves around the Sun!"
"Oh, that's not a very non-biased opinion. Can't you admit there are extremists on the other side as well? It's not that black and white. Sounds like you aren't very tolerant of people who don't share your opinions. So what I hear you saying is you want people who think the Earth doesn't revolve around the sun to be carried off by jack-booted thugs in the night and take to reeducation camps. Can't we compromise and agree that the Sun revolves around the Earth some of the time? Your attitude is really off-putting, have you considered that maybe it's making things worse?"
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Old 2nd October 2021, 11:15 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
....
I would also point out that there is a difference between the Party and its supporters. ...
And I would point out that, by and large, that doesn't matter in US politics.
As I mentioned in my first post here, there is a huge disconnect between the Parties and their voters. Apart from primaries, voters have next to no input into their politicians, and even then they tend to have very few options. And they usually have no impact on the Election Program, which is just as well, since the parties rarely managed to actually implement what they promised.
It is rare for voters to switch sides, so turnout is what matters most, and that is done by negative campaigning.
So for all intents and purposes, it doesn't matter if there is a difference between the Parties and their supporters, since Americans vote against the other side, not for their own - a logical consequences of the First-past-the-post system.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 11:18 AM   #97
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If they voted Trump into office I care not to play the "No stop I demand in the name of TRUE SKEPTICISM (TM) that you define the exact percentage of Republicans who believe exactly the same thing..." nonsense.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 12:58 PM   #98
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This is the age-old war, the forever war, now virulent as a late-cycle change is being attempted. Capital flight is the name of the game, support for successive half-fixes and partial solutions the result.

The pendulum once again swings to authoritarianism, today a friend of private wealth, tomorrow its master. When capital once again feels the cost of tyranny in dollars and cents, the pendulum will once again swing to the rule of law, assuming the tyranny is not global or overly domineering.

Absolute monarch, elected ruler, dictator, absolute monarch, elected ruler, etc, etc, rinse and repeat, the capital flight drama is forever queen. Political change peaks when the mechanisms for bringing it about have been financed for long enough.

The Left is the orphan of all this, an outsider, either condemned to be left out in the cold, or to become a monster itself and become, say, a dictatorship of the proletariat, or some such.

Slow progress has been made by the normal processes underlying social convention, but today this is different by orders of magnitude, in the sea change from vetted information to popular meme as driving narratives. Capital may now realize its wildest dreams and forever own the people, forever retire to fortress and moat. The tumult you see is democracy being strangled in the bathtub.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 01:14 PM   #99
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You know as crazy as some socialists are at least they have empathy. That's the issue with most of these rural or rural-lite folks in the city limits who live by a sort of community or regional collectivism--they don't seem to give a damn about anyone perceived to be outside of their crowd. How do you convince them to care about people tanner than themselves or city folk who tolerate gays and "soyboys"? Half of them don't even want the vaccine.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 03:31 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I was told that 'Republicans do not believe in the laws of physics'.
3-strike laws, minimum sentences and the death penalty are not examples of the laws of physics.
I would also point out that there is a difference between the Party and its supporters. This is connected to my earlier question about the range of beliefs within the set of 'Republican' or 'Democrat'.
Is it a fact that no Republicans, be they party members, members of Congress, activists or merely voters, believe in the laws of physics, or was this just hyperbole? Is there evidence to support this view?

SNIP
The highlighted bits don't speak well to the good faith you claim you're bringing to this thread.

You argued that you wanted an example of Republicans denying the laws of physics, then handwave that you were only given one. Why doesn't that one count?

The second is a nonsense standard that means one cannot make any general statement about either party, apart from party membership.

On each of those examples the GOP denying the evidence, usually overwhelming, to make their arguments. One could try to backwards engineer justifications that do follow the evidence and reach their policy preferences, but to do so one has to almost inevitably completely contradict their stated moral and ethical standards. This is how they can deny reality, even on 'opinion' questions. If I said my favorite movie was Return of the Jedi, you couldn't say that's a 'wrong' opinion. If I said my favorite movie was Netflix, that's a wrong opinion because it's not movie. If I said my favorite movie was Return of the Jedi because of the scene where the guy wakes up with a horse head in his bed and all the dirty Mexicans it employed, that's akin to the GOP stance on many subjects.

Further complicating things is that GOP voters are more ignorant on the GOP police preferences, laws, and arguments.

There are more than a few conservatives on these boards who have been very critical of the GOP for these very reasons, including ones who are still Republicans.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 06:19 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Two Extremes don't exist?
There are always fringe elements. All across the political spectrum (and other spectrums).

Notwithstanding, the answer to your question is clearly no, if we take into account significance.

The most obvious evidence can be seen in the elected officials for each party. Significant officials, such as presidents, governors, senators, reps, cabinet members. The level of extremism that permeates the Republican party, such as opposing democracy, does not exist among Dems. Agreed?
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Old 2nd October 2021, 08:00 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Really not sure who you're talking to, or where you're getting these ideas from.
I'll ask again: do these people represent the totality of Republicans, a majority of Republicans, or a minority of Republicans?



Scepticism is not about evidence-free ranting.



You should read more threads on this forum. They're here. Do you think it possible that your unrelenting hostility may be putting them off posting? You have already had that effect on me, and I'm not a Republican, nor even an American.
AS far as physics,

1 Birtherism the Theories promoted by Donald John Trump, Jerome Corsi, and Joe Arapio definitely violated the laws of physics. FOX News also Knew that I explained it to them myself.
2 The Claims about Dominion voting Machines being Hacked definitely violated the laws of physics, it's not possible for machines not connected to the Internet To be hacked from the internet.
3 Globel Warming, the Theories expressed as excuses violated the known evidence of how the Gravitational attraction and energy from the sun effects the earth.
4 the Belief that Assualt Rifles can be used to over throw a government with as much armaments and Technology as the United States is the most insane thing the Right Funded By the NRA has ever said.
I can go on and on with Fallacious Ideas that are as Insane as anything said by Dylan Avery or Professor Judy Woods, arguments with Such Intellectual dishonesty is no more productive than Arguing with Richard Gage over the natural collapse of Building 7.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 08:20 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Rubbish.
Rural Republicans love their Medicare and farm subsidies. They love that their elected sheriffs keep undesirables out of their towns. They complain that hospitals are so far away, and that insurance coverage is so poor.
They are socialists without realizing it.
Yes I know, socialist when it benefits them personally, not when it benefits others not themselves, in a Red State what you say can cost you your life.
I found out in Kentucky I have no right of Free Speach If I want to keep on Breathing.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 08:24 PM   #104
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Best way to understand it, for Europeans, is in terms of the EU and the EC.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 09:01 PM   #105
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Q: I want to hear what X say for themselves, not just what Y says about them.

Y: Here's what we think of X. And now we've already told you all there is to know about X. Now quit claiming they're just the same as us!

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Old 2nd October 2021, 09:36 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Q: I want to hear what X say for themselves, not just what Y says about them.

Y: Here's what we think of X. And now we've already told you all there is to know about X. Now quit claiming they're just the same as us!

He said he wanted to hear a Republican view point unfortunately as a former Republican I can inform him the Species went extinct several years ago, when Conspiracy theorists gained control of the Party.
I was as Republican as you could get in 2008, knew Mitch McConnell and Ron Lewis Personally. Then Rand Paul and the Crazy Libertarian Constitutionalist took over with help from Fox News, and I left and registered Independent, because Ron Paul's Waco Whackos wanted me dead.
Everyone forgets where the Oath Keepers came from.
First came the Minute Man Militia on the Border, then the Patriot movement, and after Timothy McVay, and the Oklahoma City Bombing, a group of Leftover Constitutionist Patriots formed the Oath Keepers!
The Oath Keepers started from the Same Constitutionalist who said on MySpace in the Ron Paul for president Forum, that Timothy Mcvay was a warior for Christian Revenge on the Soros, Deep State that Violated the Peaceful Branch Davidians 2nd Amendment Rights.
It had nothing to do with David Koresh marrying 6 year old Girls.
The Republican party I knew died long ago, if it ever really existed at all.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 03:54 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
The big three issues would be:

Flawed Constitutional design and the Two-Party System – Our current Constitution is a second draft from a bunch of people who were creating a Nobility-Free Government with no experience (the first draft was even worse). It functionally built in a bunch of advantages for smaller, less populous states in order to get them to sign up, but after the Industrial Revolution, those advantages became magnified and made the whole thing unstable. We are on course for a 30-70 Senate by 2040, where thirty Senators will represent seventy percent of Americans, and thirty percent of Americans will be represented by seventy Senators.

General Media Suckage – After Rupert Murdoch created his 24/7 right-wing propaganda network and we had a few decades of people complaining about “Liberal Media Bias”, the mainstream media has basically neutered itself. To shield themselves from accusations of bias, they have adopted the stand of “Balance”, where they try to provide even-handed coverage regardless of how uneven the facts are.

Racism/Slavery - Racism was basically invented to justify Slavery. When Slavery went away, the Racism stuck around. Throw in some psychological stuff like last place aversion and unwillingness of successful people to recognize that they had advantages over less successful people and you have a persistent mess that can be utilized by demagogues to acquire and maintain power.
I am interested by this comment. I think this is probably true, when the Atlantic slave trade began, for Europeans slavery meant 'white' Christian Europeans (predominantly Slavs but also people throughout the mediterranean littoral), being enslaved by 'brown' Muslim Africans / Arabs / Ottomans. There is not much evidence that the Atlantic slave trade was started as a racist act rather than slavery being a recognised state and profitable. Initially the slaves bought were those already enslaved by the peoples of the Benin coast. (Slavery persisted until late (perhaps even still persists)in West Africa.) But I am not sure there is evidence to support this hypothesis, can you point to any?
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Old 3rd October 2021, 04:57 AM   #108
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At the risk of drifting too close to CRT (and making a mess of it), I think when it comes to contemporary Racism in the US we have a "we never honestly looked at this before, so it all seems new" situation.
Europe, with its colonial history and the occasional genocide, started early with getting to terms with its racist history (with exceptions). And, of course, it's much more heterogeneous, cultural background and phenotype - wise.

Racism isn't nearly as bad as it used to be, but just because we had a darked-skinned President doesn't mean it's gone. And we are only now openly discussing how bad it still is.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 05:44 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Q: I want to hear what X say for themselves, not just what Y says about them.

Y: Here's what we think of X. And now we've already told you all there is to know about X. Now quit claiming they're just the same as us!

Nothing is stopping all those non-troll Republicans I keep getting told surely exist on this board to come into this thread and give their non-troll, non-wrong, non-semantic answers that people keep assuring me they actually have.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 06:23 AM   #110
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Both parties have been bought to serve corporate and billionaire interests. Neither side are going to end the health sector racket or end the erosion of renumeration and working conditions in favour of ordinary Americans. The division is a distraction.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 07:01 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I am interested by this comment. I think this is probably true, when the Atlantic slave trade began, for Europeans slavery meant 'white' Christian Europeans (predominantly Slavs but also people throughout the mediterranean littoral), being enslaved by 'brown' Muslim Africans / Arabs / Ottomans. There is not much evidence that the Atlantic slave trade was started as a racist act rather than slavery being a recognised state and profitable. Initially the slaves bought were those already enslaved by the peoples of the Benin coast. (Slavery persisted until late (perhaps even still persists)in West Africa.) But I am not sure there is evidence to support this hypothesis, can you point to any?
Here is as good a place to start as any. You should also read "How to be an Anti-Racist" by Ibram X Kendi, if you have the time to spare and a general good mood you want to get rid of.

A more interesting piece of evidence is the absence of evidence. Trying to find what we would consider to be "racist" literature prior to the mid 1600's is tough. Even Aristotle's much quoted text about how some people were born to be slaves has a much less quoted bit about how physical appearances and the soul did not match up all the time. People didn't really distinguish by race the way we do now.

It wasn't an egalitarian, Star Trek universe of course. There is a strong human tendency to group people as "insiders" that you know and trust, and "outsiders" that you do not trust, and physical differences can make it much easier to spot an "outsider". But there is a difference between not trusting a black stranger because they are black and not trusting them because they are a stranger.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 07:37 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Rolls eyes* Stop the presses. Yet another person who thinks the Republicans should be absolved of all their sins because someone on the left was "hyperbolic" in an offhand comment in a street-level discussion and that deserves all the attention.
Once again, this may or may not be addressed to me. If you want to talk to me, please do so directly. This talking past me at some imaginary audience is becoming rather tiresome.
Once again, please stop strawmanning me. If you were actually responding to my posts, then at no point have I ever said that I want to absolve the republicans of their sins. What part of my posting history gives you that idea?
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Old 3rd October 2021, 07:41 AM   #113
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"Show me where I said that."
"I have no idea what a strawman actually is but I'll assume anything that makes my argument look bad is one."

Can you go "Oh I thought this was a place for skeptics" and "Well that's just your opinion" so I can complete my BINGO card?
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Old 3rd October 2021, 07:49 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The highlighted bits don't speak well to the good faith you claim you're bringing to this thread.

You argued that you wanted an example of Republicans denying the laws of physics, then handwave that you were only given one. Why doesn't that one count?
Which one was I given? Climate change or the AIDS epidemic? Because, again, I'm not sure either of those count as not believing in the laws of physics. Climate change, for example: those who deny that it's manmade do not, at least as far as I've seen, deny the laws of physics. The arguments I've seen depend on the interpretation of data.
With regard to AIDS, I'm not sure how this relates to the laws of physics. Perhaps you could explain.
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The second is a nonsense standard that means one cannot make any general statement about either party, apart from party membership.
No, it's not a 'nonsense statement' at all. In the UK, most voters support most of their party's manifesto, but very few support all the views of every MP or activist. There is a range of beliefs, from extreme to centrist, and disagreement within the parties about numerous issues: I have made this point already.
It therefore seems reasonable to ask if this is the same in America. Do the views of the extremists represent the majority of the party? Is there disagreement within the parties on certain issues?
The link I provided goes some way to supporting the disbelief in science idea, but only some way, It doesn't show the entire scale, and nor does it really explain what 'distrust of science' or 'faith in science' means. There is a difference between distrusting the efficacy of vaccines and accepting that gravity exists, for example. Whilst both positions are wrong, I would argue that the former is less wrong than the latter.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 08:53 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Nothing is stopping all those non-troll Republicans I keep getting told surely exist on this board to come into this thread and give their non-troll, non-wrong, non-semantic answers that people keep assuring me they actually have.
And nothing is also stopping you from mustering a bit of honesty in how you respond to the request regardless of who else does or doesn't answer it.

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Both parties have been bought to serve corporate and billionaire interests.
And each party succeeds primarily by convincing its voters that the other one is the one doing that.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 08:56 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Which one was I given? Climate change or the AIDS epidemic? Because, again, I'm not sure either of those count as not believing in the laws of physics. Climate change, for example: those who deny that it's manmade do not, at least as far as I've seen, deny the laws of physics. The arguments I've seen depend on the interpretation of data.
With regard to AIDS, I'm not sure how this relates to the laws of physics. Perhaps you could explain.


No, it's not a 'nonsense statement' at all. In the UK, most voters support most of their party's manifesto, but very few support all the views of every MP or activist. There is a range of beliefs, from extreme to centrist, and disagreement within the parties about numerous issues: I have made this point already.
It therefore seems reasonable to ask if this is the same in America. Do the views of the extremists represent the majority of the party? Is there disagreement within the parties on certain issues?
The link I provided goes some way to supporting the disbelief in science idea, but only some way, It doesn't show the entire scale, and nor does it really explain what 'distrust of science' or 'faith in science' means. There is a difference between distrusting the efficacy of vaccines and accepting that gravity exists, for example. Whilst both positions are wrong, I would argue that the former is less wrong than the latter.
Name one Climate denial Excuse that has not already been debunked by actual Observation. The Only unfalsified theory is Green House Gas Globel Warming.
Well the other Unfalsifiable Theory is GOD is Roasting the Planet because of Sinners Who are LBTG Democrats.
However I think we can Rule out Unfalsifiable Metaphysical Theories when it comes to the Measurable Sciences.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 08:58 AM   #117
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I was once more to the right than I am now, so I understand what makes people that way from experience, far more accurately than all of the entirely worthless "They're just evilists working for evilism" declarations in here combined. In fact, that bigotry is part of the actual real-world reason itself, but nowhere near the whole picture. Right now I don't have the time to try to decide how to write it out, but I will soon.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 09:06 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
No, it's not a 'nonsense statement' at all. In the UK, most voters support most of their party's manifesto, but very few support all the views of every MP or activist. There is a range of beliefs, from extreme to centrist, and disagreement within the parties about numerous issues: I have made this point already.
Well bloody good tea and crumpets tally-ho Harry Potter gov'ner for the UK.

You asked about "American Politics." American politics is ruled by one evil side and one useless side.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 10:01 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Which one was I given? Climate change or the AIDS epidemic? Because, again, I'm not sure either of those count as not believing in the laws of physics. Climate change, for example: those who deny that it's manmade do not, at least as far as I've seen, deny the laws of physics. The arguments I've seen depend on the interpretation of data.
With regard to AIDS, I'm not sure how this relates to the laws of physics. Perhaps you could explain.
Climate change absolutely counts. The AIDS epidemic is another kind of denial and expression of their, quite abhorrent, morals system.

You have to deny physics to deny manmade climate change. One can claim they believe in physics and they are just interpreting the data, but that self-reporting withers in the daylight of empirical observation of their actions. It is an example of exactly what I mentioned in my post in a part you snipped out. If I said my favorite movie was Return of the Jedi because of the scene where the guy wakes up with a horse head in his bed and all the dirty Mexicans it employed, that's akin to the GOP stance on many subjects. If you say you believe the laws of physics, but then refuse what they mean, you don't really believe in the laws of physics.

Relying on self-reporting there isn't valid.


Quote:
No, it's not a 'nonsense statement' at all.
Standard, not statement.

Quote:
In the UK, most voters support most of their party's manifesto, but very few support all the views of every MP or activist. There is a range of beliefs, from extreme to centrist, and disagreement within the parties about numerous issues: I have made this point already.
It therefore seems reasonable to ask if this is the same in America. Do the views of the extremists represent the majority of the party? Is there disagreement within the parties on certain issues?
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I was told that 'Republicans do not believe in the laws of physics'.
3-strike laws, minimum sentences and the death penalty are not examples of the laws of physics.
I would also point out that there is a difference between the Party and its supporters. This is connected to my earlier question about the range of beliefs within the set of 'Republican' or 'Democrat'.
Is it a fact that no Republicans, be they party members, members of Congress, activists or merely voters, believe in the laws of physics, or was this just hyperbole? Is there evidence to support this view?
Highlighting added. Again, the general statement you're taking issue with does not indicate that every single Republican denies physics, but that as a party they do. If you're going to apply this same nonsense standard to every general statement in a conversation about general politics, then it's a threat 'Bobbed' from the start. More likely you'd employ it selectively, to downplay claims you are biased against for whatever reason. This is why I identified it as a red flag.

Besides, as I already pointed out, most GOP voters can't correctly identify GOP policy preferences anyway.

Quote:
The link I provided goes some way to supporting the disbelief in science idea, but only some way, It doesn't show the entire scale, and nor does it really explain what 'distrust of science' or 'faith in science' means. There is a difference between distrusting the efficacy of vaccines and accepting that gravity exists, for example. Whilst both positions are wrong, I would argue that the former is less wrong than the latter.
It really doesn't. Again, claiming to trust science and then denying the overwhelmingly supported data and direct observations that the science provides us isn't actually trusting science.

Your own example here again goes back to my point about how even an opinion can be wrong. Distrusting the efficacy of vaccines because of lies and nonsense isn't actually better.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 10:04 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
I was once more to the right than I am now, so I understand what makes people that way from experience, far more accurately than all of the entirely worthless "They're just evilists working for evilism" declarations in here combined. In fact, that bigotry is part of the actual real-world reason itself, but nowhere near the whole picture. Right now I don't have the time to try to decide how to write it out, but I will soon.
Sure, you could ignore all the reasoning and arguments as to why what they believe and do is wrong and bad, or you could focus on the conclusion being offensive to them as if that were evidence the reasoning and arguments are wrong.

They aren't just 'evilists working for evilism' even if they are doing evil and no one has argued that they are just evilists working for evilism.
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