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Old 3rd October 2021, 12:01 PM   #121
JoeMorgue
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Okay my patience is officially gone.

The question asked was about American POLITICS

We answered that question and a bunch of screeching about "Oh so you're saying all X's think Y!" nonsense started.

The OP didn't ask about people's opinions, it asked about their politics.

It doesn't matter if you're pro-bleen, shop at pro-bleen stores, go to a pro-bleen church, swear up and down from dusk to dawn that you are pro-bleen if the candidates you vote for are anti-bleen THEN YOUR GODDAMN PISS ******** ******* POLITICS ARE ANTI-BLEEN.

What got said that made that unclear that we had to have this supid hijack over?
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Old 3rd October 2021, 12:22 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay my patience is officially gone.

The question asked was about American POLITICS

We answered that question and a bunch of screeching about "Oh so you're saying all X's think Y!" nonsense started.

The OP didn't ask about people's opinions, it asked about their politics.

It doesn't matter if you're pro-bleen, shop at pro-bleen stores, go to a pro-bleen church, swear up and down from dusk to dawn that you are pro-bleen if the candidates you vote for are anti-bleen THEN YOUR GODDAMN PISS ******** ******* POLITICS ARE ANTI-BLEEN.

What got said that made that unclear that we had to have this supid hijack over?
Kind of like the whole "I'm not a racist, but then they did vote for a racist. " I agree, actions speak louder than words sometimes. People are what they do, not necessarily what they say.

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Old 3rd October 2021, 02:09 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay my patience is officially gone.

The question asked was about American POLITICS

We answered that question and a bunch of screeching about "Oh so you're saying all X's think Y!" nonsense started.

The OP didn't ask about people's opinions, it asked about their politics.

It doesn't matter if you're pro-bleen, shop at pro-bleen stores, go to a pro-bleen church, swear up and down from dusk to dawn that you are pro-bleen if the candidates you vote for are anti-bleen THEN YOUR GODDAMN PISS ******** ******* POLITICS ARE ANTI-BLEEN.


What got said that made that unclear that we had to have this supid hijack over?
There is an old saying Opinions are like Rectums everyone has one.
The Truth is most opinions are emotion not Logic based.
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Old 4th October 2021, 06:48 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
He said he wanted to hear a Republican view point unfortunately as a former Republican I can inform him the Species went extinct several years ago, when Conspiracy theorists gained control of the Party.
I was as Republican as you could get in 2008, knew Mitch McConnell and Ron Lewis Personally. Then Rand Paul and the Crazy Libertarian Constitutionalist took over with help from Fox News, and I left and registered Independent, because Ron Paul's Waco Whackos wanted me dead.
Everyone forgets where the Oath Keepers came from.
First came the Minute Man Militia on the Border, then the Patriot movement, and after Timothy McVay, and the Oklahoma City Bombing, a group of Leftover Constitutionist Patriots formed the Oath Keepers!
The Oath Keepers started from the Same Constitutionalist who said on MySpace in the Ron Paul for president Forum, that Timothy Mcvay was a warior for Christian Revenge on the Soros, Deep State that Violated the Peaceful Branch Davidians 2nd Amendment Rights.
It had nothing to do with David Koresh marrying 6 year old Girls.
The Republican party I knew died long ago, if it ever really existed at all.
Thanks for this answer, and it does actually help to answer some of my questions.
It was my impression that it has not always been like this- that the Republican Party has not always been the home of white supremacists and conspiracy theorists. Bush Senior, for example, did not come across that way to me.
You appear to be confirming this- that the party was, some time in the last Noughties, taken over by a more sinister and extremist tendency.
I note you mention Fox News. This is also something I was going to ask about, as it's frequently mentioned in discussions on this topic.
In general, how did this happen? How did this takeover occur? Was there any resistance? I seem to recall that Trump was seen as something of an outsider, even a joke, in Republican circles, until he started to win. Even now, after you'd think he would have been thrown out in disgrace, he still seems to be the de facto leader. No-one wants to stand up against him.
This is odd, given that- as some posters here have shown- most Americans agree on basic, core values. These are not the values that Trump represents. It puzzles me that the GOP seems scared to confront the extremism and the dishonesty within itself, even though this could actually win them votes.

Returning to Fox News: how did it gain such a hold on American public opinion? What is the extent of this hold? Is there no means of preventing dishonest broadcasting, as there is in the UK, or does this fall foul of the American interpretation of freedom of speech?
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Old 4th October 2021, 06:56 AM   #125
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Bill O'Reilly, for ages the public Moral Compass of the Right, claimed that no one understands how tides work, and put that out as evidence for God.
So yeah, mainstream conservatism and physical science are incompatible.
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Old 4th October 2021, 06:56 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
And I would point out that, by and large, that doesn't matter in US politics.
As I mentioned in my first post here, there is a huge disconnect between the Parties and their voters. Apart from primaries, voters have next to no input into their politicians, and even then they tend to have very few options. And they usually have no impact on the Election Program, which is just as well, since the parties rarely managed to actually implement what they promised.
It is rare for voters to switch sides, so turnout is what matters most, and that is done by negative campaigning.
So for all intents and purposes, it doesn't matter if there is a difference between the Parties and their supporters, since Americans vote against the other side, not for their own - a logical consequences of the First-past-the-post system.
It may not matter in US politics, but surely it matters in US society. The venom exhibited here is not something that is conducive to a functional society.
This idea that voters have next to no input into their politicians directly contradicts what I was told before in the other thread, so I am left a little confused.
Also, is that not seem as a problem by voters as a whole? Doesn't anyone care that politicians are not in touch with the voters, and that their Election Programs (which I'm assuming are the US equivalent of Manifestoes in the UK) are not produced by consultation with what people actually want, are not honestly made and also not accountable?
In the UK, we also have a first-past-the-post system, but manifesto pledges are taken seriously, and are expected to be followed. The argument about reforming social care is an example of that: raising taxes for this would break a manifesto pledge not to do so, so there was a long dispute between Boris and Rishi Sunak over this.
It does seem odd that a country that for so long has prided itself on being the world's greatest democracy, and the leader of the free world, should have what in practice is barely worthy of the name- at least, this is the impression I'm getting. Is there any impetus for reform?
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Old 4th October 2021, 07:00 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Returning to Fox News: how did it gain such a hold on American public opinion? What is the extent of this hold? Is there no means of preventing dishonest broadcasting, as there is in the UK, or does this fall foul of the American interpretation of freedom of speech?
Okay this is gonna be a little complicated.

To understand Fox News you have to understand a previous phenomenon, the rise of the Conservative Talk Radio.

To vastly (like serious you could take a full college course on just some aspects of this but the story has to start somewhere) over simplify it:

Until 1987 there was a Federal Law on the books in America called the FCC Fairness Doctrine, essentially ordering media outlets to presents both sides of a story in a "fair and balanced" (remember that term, it will come up later) way. This (in theory, much less in practice) prevented a media outlet from being openly conservative or liberal or left or right or this or that.

In 1987 the rule was (mostly a few parts of it were retained such as a rule that political candidates must be given equal time for ad purposes) rescinded. This lead to a huge boom in Conservative Talk Radio, which was massively efficient in a "message for dollar spent" way to reach rural, working class voters. The was essentially the first real media "bubble" that lead to a significant part of the United States population get all of its new, information, and let's be honest opinions from a single news source.
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Old 4th October 2021, 07:26 AM   #128
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What you also have to understand about Fox is that its business model is completely different from that of the other media outlets.
Advertising is only part of its revenue model, and not the largest - that's why they can afford to have Tucker Carlson advertise for catheters.
Fox bullies cable providers into overpaying them for the right to carry their program - and because the large number of viewers, no cable provider could afford to exclude Fox.
Every single US cable subscriber is financing Fox, even if half of them would never watch it.
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Old 4th October 2021, 07:29 AM   #129
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Also Fox News has mastered the "People are saying" trick of getting around outright lying.

Essentially they have their opinion shows (which aren't news shows) say something to get people worked up, and their news shows, very carefully, report on people "talking" about the thing.

Fox Opinion Show: "Does President Obama eat babies? Now we are aren't saying he is, but why won't President Obama address these rumors."
Twitter: "OMG PRESIDENT OBAMA EATS BABIES!"
Fox News Show: "Twitter is exploding with people demanding to know if President Obama eats babies."
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Old 4th October 2021, 07:30 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
It may not matter in US politics, but surely it matters in US society. The venom exhibited here is not something that is conducive to a functional society.
This idea that voters have next to no input into their politicians directly contradicts what I was told before in the other thread, so I am left a little confused.
Also, is that not seem as a problem by voters as a whole? Doesn't anyone care that politicians are not in touch with the voters, and that their Election Programs (which I'm assuming are the US equivalent of Manifestoes in the UK) are not produced by consultation with what people actually want, are not honestly made and also not accountable?
In the UK, we also have a first-past-the-post system, but manifesto pledges are taken seriously, and are expected to be followed. The argument about reforming social care is an example of that: raising taxes for this would break a manifesto pledge not to do so, so there was a long dispute between Boris and Rishi Sunak over this.
It does seem odd that a country that for so long has prided itself on being the world's greatest democracy, and the leader of the free world, should have what in practice is barely worthy of the name- at least, this is the impression I'm getting. Is there any impetus for reform?
1st underlined: for the presidential election it matters where you live as far as how much your vote counts. See how Biden took the popular vote in the 2020 election by about 7 million. But we were waiting on the results from a few states for weeks. If about 50,000 votes (if memory serves) had gone the other way in a small section of the country would've over-ruled a sizable majority. Also, if you are in a large pop state your say in the Senate is far smaller than a voter from a small state. This is what we mean when we say our votes dont matter, unless someone is from Georgia, Michigan, Penn or a few other states.

2nd underlined: sure it matters. We're frustrated by it. But we don't have a clue what do do about it. Things like a large majority of people in the country want the war on drugs to end, or want massive healthcare reform... but year after year nothing gets done. Do I continue to vote for the party that says they'll do something but can't (or won't), the party that says they want to change nothing or go back several decades, or a 3rd party that has 0% chance to win? Those are my options.

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Old 4th October 2021, 07:46 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Also Fox News has mastered the "People are saying" trick of getting around outright lying.

Essentially they have their opinion shows (which aren't news shows) say something to get people worked up, and their news shows, very carefully, report on people "talking" about the thing.

Fox Opinion Show: "Does President Obama eat babies? Now we are aren't saying he is, but why won't President Obama address these rumors."
Twitter: "OMG PRESIDENT OBAMA EATS BABIES!"
Fox News Show: "Twitter is exploding with people demanding to know if President Obama eats babies."
The Opinion shows patterned themselves after Alex Jones, when they saw how popular Alex Jones was becoming, they even had many of the Same Guests as Alex Jones and RTV. Let us Also not forget Fox ponders to the Russian Market as well as the United States Market, as does Alex Jones.
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Old 4th October 2021, 07:51 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
1st underlined: for the presidential election it matters where you live as far as how much your vote counts. See how Biden took the popular vote in the 2020 election by about 7 million. But we were waiting on the results from a few states for weeks. If about 50,000 votes (if memory serves) had gone the other way in a small section of the country would've over-ruled a sizable majority. Also, if you are in a large pop state your say in the Senate is far smaller than a voter from a small state. This is what we mean when we say our votes dont matter, unless someone is from Georgia, Michigan, Penn or a few other states.

2nd underlined: sure it matters. We're frustrated by it. But we don't have a clue what do do about it. Things like a large majority of people in the country want the war and drugs to end, or want massive healthcare reform... but year after year nothing gets done. Do I continue to vote for the party that says they'll do something but can't (or won't), the party that says they want to change nothing or go back several decades, or a 3rd party that has 0% chance to win? Those are my options.
What I hate is the degradation in the Idividual Right of Free speech, try to expose the outright lies even those that Clearly Violate the Physical laws that govern reality, and you can put your life in danger and that of your Family as well. We have lost much of our Freedom we are supposed to be guaranteed under the Constitution of the United States because of the Violent Milita Groups protecting the Alt Right.
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Old 4th October 2021, 09:48 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
It was my impression that it has not always been like this- that the Republican Party has not always been the home of white supremacists and conspiracy theorists.
I'm not sure about the conspiracy theorists, but on the white supremacists, it depends on what you mean by calling one party or the other their home. In one sense, it tends to sound like the speaker is claiming that the party is a white-supremacist party, either consisting almost entirely of white supremacists or ruled by its white supremacist contingent. And that would be false for both major parties, although it is a favorite accusation of one of them against the other. On the other hand, the white supremacists do exist, and those who would vote have only two major parties to choose from, so there's bound to be a tendency to end up more often in one party than in the other. The party they've mostly ended up in since about the 1960s is the Republicans; the party they mostly ended up in before that was the Democrats.

The previous status quo was a result of the Civil War (early 1860s). The states that allowed slavery saw the abolition of slavery coming if they stayed under the same Federal government as the states that banned it, so they tried to separate to protect their legal ability to keep allowing slavery, and failed. This accidentally prompted slavery to get abolished sooner than it would have otherwise, while their economy was still dependent on it with no time to adjust, right when they were also suffering from immense war damage.

Abraham Lincoln was the President at the time, and he was a Republican. So that set up the paradigm in the former slave states that the Federal government and its Republicans want to take away and/or ruin everything for them (in favor of the race that was supposed to be slaves), so they had to be Democrats to try to defend themselves against that attack. And that became the basis for one of the foundational beliefs of modern Conservatism, the kind of bullet point that should be considered one of the top few answers to the question "what is American conservatism; what are its core/pillar beliefs": big Federal government is bad. Its was easy to spread among the non-racists in the same party, too (remember, this was still Democrats), because it conveniently resembled a common attitude behind the Revolution that had won the country its independence from the British in the first place, and because non-racists living in the same region had to live among the same damage the Federal Republicans had caused whether they themselves had been pro-slavery or even just racist or not. (And being a non-racist in a region that was politically defined by its racism to outsiders just meant they got used to a constant stream of false accusations of racism... from the same people who had ruined everything for them in the war and the post-war economy.)

When the Civil Rights movement came along in the 1960s, the racial attitudes stayed about the same at first, but somehow switched parties; the Democrats who were against the movement saw other (mostly non-Southern) Democrats being for it and switched to Republican to oppose it. And the "big Federal government is bad" meme went with them because it was part of the same subculture at the time. Racism and opposition to the CRM started declining and the next generation was actually in favor of the CRM, but the "big Federal government is bad" meme was able to stick because it could stand on its own with no racial component in a non-racist's mind. Then along came Communism, which looked & sounded to us here like "big governments making big promises but only making things worse for the people they claim to serve", which only solidified the meme even more and made all arguments for more government programs/services/regulations always sound Communist to adherents of the meme.

And that's the situation that still stands now, with the Republicans and "conservatism" being primarily defined by "big Federal government is bad", and mostly non-racist, but also being the party where the actual modern racist minority ends up.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I note you mention Fox News. This is also something I was going to ask about, as it's frequently mentioned in discussions on this topic.
In general, how did this happen?...

...Returning to Fox News: how did it gain such a hold on American public opinion?
The major TV news networks (and newspapers) before Fox had favored Democrats, so those who'd been raised on conservative/Republican thinking by their parents and teachers got irritated by the "against us" bias and eagerly jumped on the first major TV network to oppose it. Fox didn't control people's opinions; people flocked to Fox for finally expressing what their opinions already were, at least at first. Then, the "the other side always lies and our source is the only one telling truth" phenomenon kicked in, which allowed Fox to start actually influencing viewers' opinions back, in a positive-feedback loop. It's sort of like when people have a spiritual/religious awakening and start following the great guru of their choice; they first start to think the guru is wise because the guru agrees with them, and then, once they're convinced of the guru's wisdom, they end up agreeing with the guru instead of the other way around like it was at first.

To one extent or another, this was probably aided by the fact that Republicanism/conservatism had gotten linked to (American) Protestant Christianity in the 1980s, and that type of religion primes its followers to see outsiders standing up for their outsider beliefs as anti-Christian religious oppression, which of course must be stood up against to protect their endangered religious freedom. Literally, there are sermons quoting lists of Bible verses about how the outside world will do whatever it can to crush them so if you're doing right then oppression is inevitable and oppression is a sign that you're doing right. Anybody who buys into that paradigm ends up eagerly seeking out "oppression" wherever (s)he can find it, and the complete dominance of the other political party's thinking on TV before Fox was prime fodder for that.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
How did this takeover occur? Was there any resistance? I seem to recall that Trump was seen as something of an outsider, even a joke, in Republican circles, until he started to win. Even now, after you'd think he would have been thrown out in disgrace, he still seems to be the de facto leader. No-one wants to stand up against him.
Now you've just stumbled into the other main spectrum in American politics: not between left and right or between the two parties, but between the commoners and the rich rulers.

Aided largely by a handful of Supreme Court rulings that spending money on political campaigns counts as "free speech" and thus must be protected, both major American parties have been taken over by politicians who take bribes from private companies in exchange for policies that help those companies and their top executives & board members & managers get as rich as possible while their lower employees get poorer. (Don't fall for ye olde catchphrase about the USA being the richest country; we aren't. We just have the richest rich people. We also have the poorest non-rich people in the world's "rich countries" category.) The same conflict exists in both parties, but, because the parties' members have different attitudes in other ways, it manifests differently. And most of each party's politicians count on voters blaming the other party for it because they know that perception of which side is causing it is the biggest single factor for most voters in deciding their votes.

Among Republicans, it manifested first in the "tea party" movement, which was never a real political party but just a group within the Republican Party that was supposed to finally turn against the corporate-bribed rich establishment Republicans and stop the erosion of quality of life for the non-rich. (The name comes from a Revolution-era protest event, not a political party as in a group of people, called the "Boston Tea Party", in which shipments of tea were destroyed because of the tax that Britain was imposing on tea. So it's clearly invoking the Revolution for a modern anti-government mentality.) They actually did manage to replace a lot of elitist establishment Republicans with tea-party populists (or at least people who claimed to be that), but life for the commoners didn't really start improving, so they kept pushing for more anti-government people wherever they could find them. Trump picked up on their rhetoric about the deterioration of American life for most Americans and echoed it back at them, talking about wanting to destroy one aspect of government after another, so he became the next Republican manifestation of the populism/elitism split.

Among Democrats, it has mostly manifested in lots of complaining and hand-wringing but no action, because they keep convincing themselves that they can never succeed at anything and only the Republicans & corporatists can ever win so it's best not to try. That's how, most of the time, they end up nominating elitist, status-quo, bribe-taking, trickle-up-economics candidates whom even they don't actually want and who can hardly be distinguished from elitist Republicans, claiming that's the only type of "Democrat" who can win. It might finally be beginning to gradually turn around with a few recent possible sparks of life from the "progressive" movement, but only time will tell whether that grows or the party sinks back into its usual depressed hopeless loser-thinking & capitulationism.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
This is odd, given that- as some posters here have shown- most Americans agree on basic, core values. These are not the values that Trump represents.
For American conservatives, it's all about big Federal government being bad in every way and needing to be demolished. That's the core theme that started with the Revolution against an empire, continued through the South's ruination in the Civil War when they say the American government outright attacked them, continued through the self-destruction of Communism with its promises of government taking care of everything for everybody, and has only deepened for the last few decades of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer while government either sits by doing nothing or actively helps to make it worse. Every step of the way, national government is always and has always been the enemy, the source of problems, in this way of thinking. Trump was elected to be a wrecking ball.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
It puzzles me that the GOP seems scared to confront the extremism and the dishonesty within itself, even though this could actually win them votes.
The kind of reasonable, rational, populist candidate who would actually want to try to improve people's lives would be inherently favored by the voters, but would also be up against both Trump and the elitist Republican establishment, both of which would do anything they can to sabotage such a candidate. The voters can only choose among the candidates that are available to vote for, and the parties have ways of making candidates who would disrupt their cash flow unavailable at election time.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Is there no means of preventing dishonest broadcasting, as there is in the UK, or does this fall foul of the American interpretation of freedom of speech?
It would fall afoul of two things in the USA: freedom of speech, and people's lack of trust in the gatekeepers of "truth" to not be liars themselves.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Doesn't anyone care that politicians are not in touch with the voters... Is there any impetus for reform?
Everybody wants it changed. But those who are in power game the system against the kinds of candidates the voters want, including by tricking some voters into going against themselves.

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Old 4th October 2021, 11:11 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
My suggested reforms to US politics that I think would really mitigate the current animous.

Get rid of primaries, or just make it clear its an internal party thing and not some official government thing.

Massively increase the size of the house, that way it would be more proportional. Something along the lines of 1 rep per 150k of population or such.

Set the SCOTUS at 9 justices with 18 year terms with a new appointment every 2 years. Thus every president get 2 per term. If one dies or retires early, that president gets a to appoint someone for the remainder of that term. There's no way one president could change the court for 40 years.

Break up the big states. That would make the senate more proportional and representative. It would somewhat paradoxically give the big states more power.

Redistricting should be done on as non partisan a basis as possible. I think california's recent changes are a good model but someone could probably come up with an app that would do a better and less biased job than politicians. Regardless, needs to be out of the Pols hands.
Breaking up the states is not going to happen. it can only be done wiith the consent of the states involved,which is highly unlikely. Only happened once, West Virginia, and that was a special circumstance during the Civil war when the western part of Virginia refused to recongizne sucession.
And some people think the US House is unwieldly as it is. IMHO having four year terms instead of 2 years would be a better way of fixing some of the house problems. Two years meand House memebers spend their time trying to get reelected.
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Old 4th October 2021, 12:06 PM   #135
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/rant mode on

Cosmic Yak:

Here is a personal anecdote that you may or may not believe that just happened to me. I've just been legally ripped off to the tune of $1200. My insurance denied 3 claims from a medical test provider, specifically an in-network* test center ordered by a doctor (board certified and state licensed not some sort of woowoo ****). I can pay it or hire a lawyer to fight it, which will likely cost much much more money. In total I've spent about 15k on healthcare above my premiums the last few years, either due to denied claims, or money before I hit my deductible JUST trying to figure out wtf is wrong with. Now the cost of treatment w00000000000000.

So yes I'm ******* angry that a minority of the country due to our political system is keeping us from moving on like the rest of the world to a decent healthcare system rather than one whose goal is to rip us off at every possible opportunity . I'm personally affected by people sticking their fingers in their ears going "BUT THATS SOCIALISM!!!"... all while getting free treatment on my ******* tax dollars when they show up to a hospital for a disease that has a free effective and safe vaccine.

*be ******* grateful that you probably have no idea what "in-network" means in a healthcare context



/End rant

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Old 5th October 2021, 07:36 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
/rant mode on

Cosmic Yak:

Here is a personal anecdote that you may or may not believe that just happened to me. I've just been legally ripped off to the tune of $1200. My insurance denied 3 claims from a medical test provider, specifically an in-network* test center ordered by a doctor (board certified and state licensed not some sort of woowoo ****). I can pay it or hire a lawyer to fight it, which will likely cost much much more money. In total I've spent about 15k on healthcare above my premiums the last few years, either due to denied claims, or money before I hit my deductible JUST trying to figure out wtf is wrong with. Now the cost of treatment w00000000000000.

So yes I'm ******* angry that a minority of the country due to our political system is keeping us from moving on like the rest of the world to a decent healthcare system rather than one whose goal is to rip us off at every possible opportunity . I'm personally affected by people sticking their fingers in their ears going "BUT THATS SOCIALISM!!!"... all while getting free treatment on my ******* tax dollars when they show up to a hospital for a disease that has a free effective and safe vaccine.

*be ******* grateful that you probably have no idea what "in-network" means in a healthcare context



/End rant
Um. OK.
Are you angry with me because of this?
Does my interest in trying to understand things I'm told I don't understand mean I'm a target for your anger and frustration at the state of the States?
Despite what some here are screaming, I'm not a Republican, nor am I excusing bad behaviour by Republicans, so I'm not sure why you're shouting at me.
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Old 5th October 2021, 10:03 AM   #137
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I note that no-one has actually addressed this (thanks, ahhell):

https://carrcenter.hks.harvard.edu/r...-united-states

Again, this may just be my ignorance, but I'm having trouble squaring the survey results here with the depiction of Republicans on this thread. How can they be supportive of many of the ideas that I'm being told they don't support?
To forestall the inevitable reasoned, reasonable howls of hatred and fury: I am not excusing racism, science denial, intolerance, dishonesty or anti-democratic sentiments. I am saying that these results show a different side of America from what I'm being told here. How can they both be true?
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Old 5th October 2021, 10:28 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I note that no-one has actually addressed this (thanks, ahhell):

https://carrcenter.hks.harvard.edu/r...-united-states

Again, this may just be my ignorance, but I'm having trouble squaring the survey results here with the depiction of Republicans on this thread. How can they be supportive of many of the ideas that I'm being told they don't support?
To forestall the inevitable reasoned, reasonable howls of hatred and fury: I am not excusing racism, science denial, intolerance, dishonesty or anti-democratic sentiments. I am saying that these results show a different side of America from what I'm being told here. How can they both be true?
It's pretty simple really. Both Conservatives and Liberals support Good Things and oppose Bad Things, but disagree on what is Good and Bad.

Ask an average Democrat if voting rights are important, and they will say, "Yes voting rights are important, and that's why we need to stop Republicans from making it harder for people to vote."

Ask an average Republican if voting rights are important, and they will say, "Yes, voting rights are important, and that's why we need to make it harder for Democrats to win elections through Voter Fraud."

Both sides believe that they are the heroes, but only one actually is. The other has just created a vast edifice of lies to convince themselves that they are right.
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Old 5th October 2021, 10:58 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I note that no-one has actually addressed this (thanks, ahhell):

https://carrcenter.hks.harvard.edu/r...-united-states

Again, this may just be my ignorance, but I'm having trouble squaring the survey results here with the depiction of Republicans on this thread. How can they be supportive of many of the ideas that I'm being told they don't support?
To forestall the inevitable reasoned, reasonable howls of hatred and fury: I am not excusing racism, science denial, intolerance, dishonesty or anti-democratic sentiments. I am saying that these results show a different side of America from what I'm being told here. How can they both be true?
Yes, it has been addressed. Again, self-reporting that is at odds with actual practice means the actual practice is what is true. Combined with GOP voters having the least idea what both parties actually have done and are trying to do explains the disconnect.

If someone says they support science, but deny what science has shown us on everything from evolution to covid to global warming to abortion (the GOP literally has passed laws that make doctors lie to women seeking abortions), then they only wish they supported science, don't know how to tell what valid science is, or know that they're supposed to support science and say so just to reinforce their own self-delusions.
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Old 5th October 2021, 12:26 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I note that no-one has actually addressed this (thanks, ahhell):

https://carrcenter.hks.harvard.edu/r...-united-states

Again, this may just be my ignorance, but I'm having trouble squaring the survey results here with the depiction of Republicans on this thread. How can they be supportive of many of the ideas that I'm being told they don't support?
To forestall the inevitable reasoned, reasonable howls of hatred and fury: I am not excusing racism, science denial, intolerance, dishonesty or anti-democratic sentiments. I am saying that these results show a different side of America from what I'm being told here. How can they both be true?
Mid-Atlantic American checking in. Nothing you see on the forum represents what I see every day.

Most Republicans I come across believe normal stuff but are big gun guys or wannabe rich guys, with a smattering of religious types that believe in old earth and evolution and all.
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Old 5th October 2021, 04:48 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
these results show a different side of America from what I'm being told here. How can they both be true?
They aren't.

Consider three subgroups of Republicans:

1. Bribe-taking politicians who work strictly for their bribers (just like Democrat bribe-taking politicians)

2. Paranoid-delusional, and to one extent or another (but lately increasingly) violence-obsessed, bigots

3. Others who favor minimal taxation & government activity in general because they've always been told that it's inefficient and failure-prone at best, oppressive at worst (with a slippery slope paved with good intentions connecting the two)

Group 3 is the biggest. Democrats usually distort their depiction of the party as a whole by fixating on groups 1 & 2 and accusing group 3 of really being in one of them.

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Old 5th October 2021, 05:11 PM   #142
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The best way for Europeans to understand America is probably in terms of the EU and the EC. A thread on the ISF forums is probably the second worst way.
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Old 5th October 2021, 06:25 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I think it's necessary to see the meta-game that is going on in America.
Actual politics and the accompanying media coverage are almost completely divorced from the daily experience of Americans. Most are not active in Parties or on the local level, and those who are have to devote all their time on the political game and soon lose contact with their base.
The voters don't understand the politicians, and vice versa, which is why lobbying is such a central part of governing, and why both parties need some friendly Media companies.
Something like this happened with people voting for Obama and switching to Trump. Politics has no real meaning for them. They could not tell you how they benefited from Trump. Just empty words: "he looked presidential! he was decisive!"
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Old 5th October 2021, 07:15 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Mid-Atlantic American checking in. Nothing you see on the forum represents what I see every day.

Most Republicans I come across believe normal stuff but are big gun guys or wannabe rich guys, with a smattering of religious types that believe in old earth and evolution and all.
Normal stuff like the 2/3rd who believe there was fraud that stole the election from Trump? Or the majority who want better healthcare and increased taxes on the rich to pay for infrastructure but also believe the GOP is fighting to give them these things?

Ignorance, lying, delusion. There is no way to analyze GOP politics and their voter base without one of those being key.
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Old 6th October 2021, 03:22 AM   #145
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Just to go back to "denying the laws of physics" for a moment: given that the Nobel Prize for Physics has just been awarded to 3 guys for work which included working out human contribution to climate change, it kinda looks like climate change denial is denying physics.
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Old 6th October 2021, 05:30 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Just to go back to "denying the laws of physics" for a moment: given that the Nobel Prize for Physics has just been awarded to 3 guys for work which included working out human contribution to climate change, it kinda looks like climate change denial is denying physics.
Since Globel warming always involved an energy Question it was always a physics Question.
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Old 6th October 2021, 06:01 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Just to go back to "denying the laws of physics" for a moment: given that the Nobel Prize for Physics has just been awarded to 3 guys for work which included working out human contribution to climate change, it kinda looks like climate change denial is denying physics.
And again, what I am being told in this thread is contrary to the evidence i have been able to find.
The claim that Republicans are one homogenous clump of science-denying imbeciles is not true. There are, in fact, differences within that group, and these differences are largely age-related. Younger Republicans are more likely to accept the reality of climate change.
https://www.dw.com/en/are-us-republi...sis/a-59215389
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Old 6th October 2021, 06:03 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
And again, what I am being told in this thread is contrary to the evidence i have been able to find.
The claim that Republicans are one homogenous clump of science-denying imbeciles is not true. There are, in fact, differences within that group, and these differences are largely age-related. Younger Republicans are more likely to accept the reality of climate change.
https://www.dw.com/en/are-us-republi...sis/a-59215389
If they vote for politicians who don't believe in climate change what farting difference does it make if they do or don't believe in it?

Again you do understand that your politics and your opinions aren't the same thing right? Especially if you're dishonest as many on the Right are.

You didn't ask us about their opinions, you asked us about their politics.
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Old 6th October 2021, 06:04 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Since Globel warming always involved an energy Question it was always a physics Question.
Everything is a physics question in the end. (Or math if you want to get even more technical.)
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Old 6th October 2021, 06:08 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Normal stuff like the 2/3rd who believe there was fraud that stole the election from Trump? Or the majority who want better healthcare and increased taxes on the rich to pay for infrastructure but also believe the GOP is fighting to give them these things?

Ignorance, lying, delusion. There is no way to analyze GOP politics and their voter base without one of those being key.
Have a look at this poll. I don't think the differences are actually that clear-cut. There is a definite spread of belief among Republicans.

Once again, to preempt the screaming, I am not defending the delusions and dishonesty of those who continue to claim the election was rigged, or that Trump is or should be the president.
I am saying that the data does not support the more extreme claims being made here.
https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/...May%202021.pdf
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Old 6th October 2021, 06:31 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Have a look at this poll. I don't think the differences are actually that clear-cut. There is a definite spread of belief among Republicans.

Once again, to preempt the screaming, I am not defending the delusions and dishonesty of those who continue to claim the election was rigged, or that Trump is or should be the president.
I am saying that the data does not support the more extreme claims being made here.
https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/...May%202021.pdf
Polls are not that effective anymore because many on the Right will not contribute too them.
The Alt Right is the Problem, along with one Issue Voters.
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Old 6th October 2021, 06:35 AM   #152
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Also people lie to pollsters. They lie to themselves. They lie to each other.

That's why in politics who you vote for is the only poll that matters.

I'm being ignored because I've said it like 3 times now but if your opinions are all pro-X but you still vote for politicians who take actions against X, your politics are anti-X.
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Old 6th October 2021, 07:32 AM   #153
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The desperate last excuse of people who made false claims and had them exposed: "the facts can't be right if they say something I don't like!". Very Trumpish.
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Old 6th October 2021, 07:38 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Mid-Atlantic American checking in. Nothing you see on the forum represents what I see every day.

Most Republicans I come across believe normal stuff but are big gun guys or wannabe rich guys, with a smattering of religious types that believe in old earth and evolution and all.
Interesting.
Do you know where these Republicans stand on the whole QAnon, baby-blood-drinking thing? I would like to know how prevalent that view is, especially as I'm getting told here that it's a majority of the group.
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Old 6th October 2021, 07:43 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Polls are not that effective anymore because many on the Right will not contribute too them.
The Alt Right is the Problem, along with one Issue Voters.
The poll gives a breakdown of the respondents by political affiliation. Equal numbers of each were questioned. That, to me, would produce a balanced view.

Also, absence of evidence is not evidence. This looks like little more than the kind of appeal to the lurkers we see on this forum from time to time. You're claiming something you cannot prove, nor that you can even know about, in order to maintain a claim.
How many right wingers refused to answer the questions on this poll?
How many Democrats also refused to answer?
On what grounds do you characterise their views as being the kind of crazy they have been presented as?
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Old 6th October 2021, 07:45 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
The desperate last excuse of people who made false claims and had them exposed: "the facts can't be right if they say something I don't like!". Very Trumpish.
Exactly.
Pure confirmation bias.
"If the people don't say they believe what I think they believe, it's because they secretly do believe that, but are lying about it".
Very poor.
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Old 6th October 2021, 07:48 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
The poll gives a breakdown of the respondents by political affiliation. Equal numbers of each were questioned. That, to me, would produce a balanced view.

Also, absence of evidence is not evidence. This looks like little more than the kind of appeal to the lurkers we see on this forum from time to time. You're claiming something you cannot prove, nor that you can even know about, in order to maintain a claim.
How many right wingers refused to answer the questions on this poll?
How many Democrats also refused to answer?
On what grounds do you characterise their views as being the kind of crazy they have been presented as?
My relatives are all crazy Republicans, call them up about a poll or paste a poll on Face book, and they will completely ignore it.
It will be just another attempt to spread fake News.
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Old 6th October 2021, 07:58 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
The desperate last excuse of people who made false claims and had them exposed: "the facts can't be right if they say something I don't like!". Very Trumpish.
Or if they have knowledge and experience you are lacking.
Like living in a Red state and dealing with crazy Alt Right in their own Relatives.
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Old 6th October 2021, 07:59 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
And again, what I am being told in this thread is contrary to the evidence i have been able to find.
The claim that Republicans are one homogenous clump of science-denying imbeciles is not true. There are, in fact, differences within that group, and these differences are largely age-related. Younger Republicans are more likely to accept the reality of climate change.
https://www.dw.com/en/are-us-republi...sis/a-59215389
No, it is not contrary to your own evidence. Did you understand what you were citing? I don't even have to get into how belief the election was stolen has actually grown among the GOP (newer poll) because your own link says most of them already thought that. 56% said the election was the result of fraud and 19% claim they don't know. Your own 'range of beliefs' says that only a quarter of Republicans accept the clear and repeatedly proven, widely and intensely reported, reality. This is not evidence that supports your hypothesis.

More than that, "As a result, 87% of Republicans believe it is important that the government place new limits on voting to protect elections from fraud." Do you really not understand how this is proof what what I and poster like Joe have been saying? Almost 9 in 10 Republicans want to limit voting based on something you say they don't actually believe enough to say they believe that. Based on something this same exact survey says they themselves report not believing.

This poll says that 13% of the GOP want to limit voting to prevent something that they didn't think happened. This here, in your own citation, is strong evidence that the GOP will support and do things politically regardless of what they or their voters believe. Your focus on their self-reported belief is a basic, well known, error in interpreting polling data. When using self-reporting, you have to know the limits of it and correct using other data.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Interesting.
Do you know where these Republicans stand on the whole QAnon, baby-blood-drinking thing? I would like to know how prevalent that view is, especially as I'm getting told here that it's a majority of the group.
Who told you that? You keep straw manning.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Exactly.
Pure confirmation bias.
"If the people don't say they believe what I think they believe, it's because they secretly do believe that, but are lying about it".
Very poor.
Yes, confirmation bias is very poor thinking. So, stop? The basic reasoning you're using is flawed.
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Old 6th October 2021, 08:01 AM   #160
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 35,556
I don't how to say it any clearer.

If 57% of people who voted for John Smith say they don't support punching babies, but John Smith signs the biggest baby punching law in history, then 100% of John Smith voters are politically pro-punching babies.

Why are we arguing about their own personal opinions as if they matter?
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