IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 6th October 2021, 08:09 AM   #161
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 15,645
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Mid-Atlantic American checking in. Nothing you see on the forum represents what I see every day.

Most Republicans I come across believe normal stuff but are big gun guys or wannabe rich guys, with a smattering of religious types that believe in old earth and evolution and all.
Whereas here in the Very Northwest, the mayor of nearby Sequim is a Qanon nut. And there's a movement to carve out a Christian dystopia called The American Redoubt, where men who refuse to adopt Redoubt ideology will be executed. (The women are spared, presumably for breeding.)

In other words, I see your vague anecdote, and raise with specific anecdotes.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

Last edited by varwoche; 6th October 2021 at 08:14 AM.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2021, 08:52 AM   #162
W.D.Clinger
Illuminator
 
W.D.Clinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,001
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Have a look at this poll. I don't think the differences are actually that clear-cut. There is a definite spread of belief among Republicans.

Once again, to preempt the screaming, I am not defending the delusions and dishonesty of those who continue to claim the election was rigged, or that Trump is or should be the president.
I am saying that the data does not support the more extreme claims being made here.
https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/...May%202021.pdf
According to the Ipsos poll you have chosen to cite, 61% of the Republicans polled either "Strongly agree" or "Somewhat agree" that "[The 2020 election was stolen from Donald Trump]".

Thus your own data support the idea that a majority of the Republicans polled are choosing to believe crazy things.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
On what grounds do you characterise their views as being the kind of crazy they have been presented as?
On the grounds that your own data tell us a majority of the Republicans polled believe something crazy.

tyr_13 has already stated the obvious, at greater length and probably more clearly, but I wanted to state the obvious more succinctly.
W.D.Clinger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2021, 09:41 AM   #163
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,119
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Interesting.
Do you know where these Republicans stand on the whole QAnon, baby-blood-drinking thing? I would like to know how prevalent that view is, especially as I'm getting told here that it's a majority of the group.
Absolutely. I haven't met a single flesh and blood human that actually believes any of that, although I know quite a few Republican voters (I see an occasional Q t-shirt or bumper sticker in the wild, but like once a month). In my own family, my father ridicules virtually every thing on the R platform, but still considers himself an old-school Republican. Same for my mother, but she is more of a religious one issue voter: abortion. She will say openly "god I wish they would fix their craziness, but I feel god wants me to stop the murder of babies. Sometimes you have to sleep with the Devil for the larger goal".

My brother is a full-on gun nut, and single issue voter on that front. He thinks ex-President Trump is a low life dirtbag, but will ignore everything to pack more firepower.

At work, me and my gutter rat thugs are all left leaning, and the owners of million dollar plus beachfront houses tend to vote R. The richie-riches vote R out of an interest in financial advantage. They care not a whit for actual politics. No signs or stickers. But if the subject comes up (I tend to avoid political discussions with customers), they uniformly ridicule Q and the like.

I am around religious people quite a bit. None really claim confidently that the Earth is 6000 years old or whatever. They shuffle their feet and get uncomfortable and vague if the subject comes up. But I bet they'd answer a poll saying they believe in young Earth. That's kind of how I see polls. They answer what people self-report in theory, not in practice. In practice, we are much closer than it seems.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

Last edited by Thermal; 6th October 2021 at 09:49 AM.
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2021, 09:47 AM   #164
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,119
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Whereas here in the Very Northwest, the mayor of nearby Sequim is a Qanon nut. And there's a movement to carve out a Christian dystopia called The American Redoubt, where men who refuse to adopt Redoubt ideology will be executed. (The women are spared, presumably for breeding.)

In other words, I see your vague anecdote, and raise with specific anecdotes.
See, that's interesting to me. As I said above, the specific flesh and bloods I know have dead zero support for Q and the like. We read about people with fringe mentalities on the computer (in a nation of a third of a billion), but on the Right Coast, that's the only place they actually appear: on the laptop.

Out your way, things sound creepier and very foreign to my ears.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2021, 09:51 AM   #165
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,816
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Absolutely. I haven't met a single flesh and blood human that actually believes any of that, although I know quite a few Republican voters (I see an occasional Q t-shirt or bumper sticker in the wild, but like once a month). In my own family, my father ridicules virtually every thing on the R platform, but still considers himself an old-school Republican. Same for my mother, but she is more of a religious one issue voter: abortion. She will say openly "god I wish they would fix their craziness, but I feel god wants me to stop the murder of babies. Sometimes you have to sleep with the Devil for the larger goal".

My brother is a full-on gun nut, and single issue voter on that front. He thinks ex-President Trump is a low life dirtbag, but will ignore everything to pack more firepower.

At work, me and my gutter rat thugs are all left leaning, and the owners of million dollar plus beachfront houses tend to vote R. The richie-riches vote R out of an interest in financial advantage. They care not a whit for actual politics. No signs or stickers. But if the subject comes up (I tend to avoid political discussions with customers), they uniformly ridicule Q and the like.

I am around religious people quite a bit. None really claim confidently that the Earth is 6000 years old or whatever. They shuffle their feet and get uncomfortable and vague if the subject comes up. But I bet they'd answer a poll saying they believe in young Earth. That's kind of how I see polls. They answer what people self-report in theory, not in practice. In practice, we are much closer than it seems.
You are Lucky not to be in Kentucky.
http://creationmuseum.org/
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2021, 09:55 AM   #166
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 35,556
So where exactly do conservative politicians come from then, the ******* aether?
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2021, 09:59 AM   #167
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,380
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
See, that's interesting to me. As I said above, the specific flesh and bloods I know have dead zero support for Q and the like. We read about people with fringe mentalities on the computer (in a nation of a third of a billion), but on the Right Coast, that's the only place they actually appear: on the laptop.

Out your way, things sound creepier and very foreign to my ears.
I have elderly relatives back in Texas. They're having a hard time finding worming medication for their dogs, and worrying about which of their friends' Covid-related funerals they can attend safely. I can't say whether it's a majority of the Republican party, but it's far from a nutcase fringe.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2021, 10:00 AM   #168
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,119
Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
You are Lucky not to be in Kentucky.
http://creationmuseum.org/
That's one of the many things I am grateful for daily.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2021, 10:19 AM   #169
Venom
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 5,241
In many ways the old neocon-Evangelical coalition won. A perfect storm of single issue voters and those with more targeted goals. It only takes the Republican-leaning undecideds to think that guns will be mass confiscated or Democrats want to "kill babies" or the narrative that the Democratic party is in any way far left for them to fold to what they perceive as the lesser evil.

They played the binary system very well. And seeing how dominant the new strain of rightwing media aimed at young white men is, they may be next to carry the Republican banner for decades to come, though they are less outwardly religious and interventionist.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2021, 10:20 AM   #170
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 35,556
A bunch of idiots "trying to adjust for the other extreme" is the best thing an extremist group can ask for.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 6th October 2021 at 10:24 AM.
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2021, 10:35 AM   #171
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 4,673
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Interesting.
Do you know where these Republicans stand on the whole QAnon, baby-blood-drinking thing? I would like to know how prevalent that view is, especially as I'm getting told here that it's a majority of the group.
Who told you that? You keep straw manning.
Strawmanning? Really?


Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Evidence of what? That people who take horse dewormer instead of vaccines are wrong? The people who think there's a massive organized voter fraud happening exist? The people who think Hillary Clinton has a child sex dungeon under a pizza parlor? The people who think Donald Trump is still the legit President? The people who think storming the Capital openly calling to murder elected officials during a vote certification isn't a coup?
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Democrats really need to do something utterly outrages. This is the very best time for it: the right-wing echo chamber has been preaching for decades now that Democrats are baby-eating demons, so there is literally nothing Dems can do that would scare the perpetually scared even further.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Fox Opinion Show: "Does President Obama eat babies? Now we are aren't saying he is, but why won't President Obama address these rumors."
Twitter: "OMG PRESIDENT OBAMA EATS BABIES!"
Fox News Show: "Twitter is exploding with people demanding to know if President Obama eats babies."
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2021, 10:38 AM   #172
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 4,673
And this one just in....

Originally Posted by Venom View Post
In many ways the old neocon-Evangelical coalition won. A perfect storm of single issue voters and those with more targeted goals. It only takes the Republican-leaning undecideds to think that guns will be mass confiscated or Democrats want to "kill babies" or the narrative that the Democratic party is in any way far left for them to fold to what they perceive as the lesser evil.

They played the binary system very well. And seeing how dominant the new strain of rightwing media aimed at young white men is, they may be next to carry the Republican banner for decades to come, though they are less outwardly religious and interventionist.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2021, 11:09 AM   #173
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,737
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Strawmanning? Really?


Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
And this one just in....



Yes, straw manning. Do you not understand your quotes this time either? None of those, not a single one, is claiming those things of 'the majority of Republican voters'.

But also, and this is awkward for your position, half of Trump supporters literally do think that Democrats run child sex trafficking rings that Trump was fighting against.

It get it, you don't want it to be true. You're searching for the 'reasonable' explanations as to what the political situation 'really is'. But you're biasing your views to fit your assumption that everyone is more reasonable than they seem. You're engaging in 'reasonability theater', which values seeming reasonable to more people over being reasonable by following the evidence even when it leads to unflattering conclusions.

There is no law of nature that leads the centrist political triangulation to being true. 'Extreme' is not in how close to the middle a view is or how many people it offends but how far from reality it is. This makes the 'centrist' view that 'all people are being more reasonable than they seem and you're just vilifying people' an extreme view in reality even if it doesn't seem so for the theater.

And more extreme is taking the statements of others who are being reasonable given the evidence and making them more extreme in order to make the actually unreasonable side seem better.

EDIT: And it is not biased nor extremist to reject the goalpost of 'it's only important if a supermajority answer a poll affirming support for it'. Qannon, The Proud Boys, etc all have outsized influence in the GOP right now, regardless of if most of their voters even know who they are. You don't have to know who is making moves or who made the talking points and propaganda to fall for it. This is doubly so when you can just target elected officials and don't have to make the case to a base which is ignorant of what all the elected officials stand for anyway. Again, you can't divorce the fact that GOP voters know less about what is going on from the equation.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong

Last edited by tyr_13; 6th October 2021 at 11:14 AM. Reason: to add
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2021, 12:02 PM   #174
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 15,645
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
And this one just in....

Perhaps once you take in tyr_13's post, you'll rethink these emojis.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2021, 12:33 PM   #175
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 35,556
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Strawmanning? Really?









Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
And this one just in....



Rolls those eyes a little harder. Maybe eventually you'll roll them far enough back you'll look inward a little.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2021, 12:35 PM   #176
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,119
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Yes, straw manning. Do you not understand your quotes this time either? None of those, not a single one, is claiming those things of 'the majority of Republican voters'.

But also, and this is awkward for your position, half of Trump supporters literally do think that Democrats run child sex trafficking rings that Trump was fighting against.

It get it, you don't want it to be true. You're searching for the 'reasonable' explanations as to what the political situation 'really is'. But you're biasing your views to fit your assumption that everyone is more reasonable than they seem. You're engaging in 'reasonability theater', which values seeming reasonable to more people over being reasonable by following the evidence even when it leads to unflattering conclusions.

There is no law of nature that leads the centrist political triangulation to being true. 'Extreme' is not in how close to the middle a view is or how many people it offends but how far from reality it is. This makes the 'centrist' view that 'all people are being more reasonable than they seem and you're just vilifying people' an extreme view in reality even if it doesn't seem so for the theater.

And more extreme is taking the statements of others who are being reasonable given the evidence and making them more extreme in order to make the actually unreasonable side seem better.

EDIT: And it is not biased nor extremist to reject the goalpost of 'it's only important if a supermajority answer a poll affirming support for it'. Qannon, The Proud Boys, etc all have outsized influence in the GOP right now, regardless of if most of their voters even know who they are. You don't have to know who is making moves or who made the talking points and propaganda to fall for it. This is doubly so when you can just target elected officials and don't have to make the case to a base which is ignorant of what all the elected officials stand for anyway. Again, you can't divorce the fact that GOP voters know less about what is going on from the equation.
From your link:

Quote:
However, among Trump supporters, when asked about QAnon specifically, 22% say, “It goes too far but I believe some of what I’ve heard,” 47% say that they’re “not sure” what to believe, and 15% openly say, “I think it's true.”
Eta: forgot to finish. When asked if Trump is fighting some kind of sex trafficking thing run by democrats (with references to Q removed), half thought he was. That could mean they think something quite different. Fighting an imaginary enemy (but he would be still believed to be fighting nonetheless, if Quixotically), or generally fighting pedophiles that were sure to include Democrats.. The specific wording of the question made for a dramatically different answer.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

Last edited by Thermal; 6th October 2021 at 12:52 PM.
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2021, 01:28 PM   #177
Venom
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 5,241
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
And this one just in....

Originally Posted by Venom
In many ways the old neocon-Evangelical coalition won. A perfect storm of single issue voters and those with more targeted goals. It only takes the Republican-leaning undecideds to think that guns will be mass confiscated or Democrats want to "kill babies" or the narrative that the Democratic party is in any way far left for them to fold to what they perceive as the lesser evil.
What? Isn't that what you mentioned in the OP?
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2021, 08:10 PM   #178
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,737
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
From your link:



Eta: forgot to finish. When asked if Trump is fighting some kind of sex trafficking thing run by democrats (with references to Q removed), half thought he was. That could mean they think something quite different. Fighting an imaginary enemy (but he would be still believed to be fighting nonetheless, if Quixotically), or generally fighting pedophiles that were sure to include Democrats.. The specific wording of the question made for a dramatically different answer.
Yeah, no. Your excuse making for those you really wish were not as bad as the evidence shows is extremely feeble here. 'Maybe they were remarkably stupid or came up with a fiction to justify their crazy belief' isn't better.

The claim was about elite Democrats running child trafficking rings. It wasn't about Qannon but their basic reason for being. As I said, one doesn't even have to know about Qannon to be be influence by their insane lies.

The specific questions were, "Do you believe that top Democrats are involved in elite child sex-trafficking rings?" which half of Republicans and half of Trump supporters said YES too. Another 29% or 33% (Republicans or Trump supporters) said they weren't sure. That's 73% crazy answer. Your excuses don't hold water, and they certainly don't change that to a trivial issue. The second question was, "Do you believe that President Trump is working to dismantle an elite child sex-trafficking ring involving top Democrats?" That one was 49% of Republicans and 52% of Trump supporters answered yes to, and 33/37% not sure.

This can go on all day because there is just so much damning information. Want to start in on birtherism? I'm sure you know a ton of very reasonable Trump supporting Republicans who 'aren't racist at all' who somehow, in a matchup as close to an experiment as could be where one candidate really wasn't born in the US and the other was, figured it was the black man who wasn't and the white man who was. You know, the opposite of reality. That more than half of Republicans believed, until Obama released his birth certificate when it fell to still more than half, before bouncing back to just as many believing it. However, you thinking you know what the GOP members around you believe and it just happening to be reassuring to you doesn't change the reality.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2021, 09:24 PM   #179
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 16,086
"Would you take a vaccine from a Cabal of child sex-traffickers?"
__________________
“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”
-Anne Lamott
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2021, 10:25 PM   #180
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 16,076
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
.... When asked if Trump is fighting some kind of sex trafficking thing run by democrats (with references to Q removed), half thought he was. That could mean they think something quite different. Fighting an imaginary enemy (but he would be still believed to be fighting nonetheless, if Quixotically), or generally fighting pedophiles that were sure to include Democrats.. The specific wording of the question made for a dramatically different answer.
Sigh. Well, at least good to know the world remains stubbornly true to form, and is quite gaily in the midst of a 1930s re-do. When out of ammo, attack the language. May no meaning be shared, may words be empty, may the emotions they evoke do our sloppy work for us, may sound deliberation never again report for duty and so cruelly lay waste to our dreams of glory.
__________________
His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp

Last edited by Hlafordlaes; 6th October 2021 at 10:26 PM.
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2021, 07:54 AM   #181
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,119
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Yeah, no. Your excuse making for those you really wish were not as bad as the evidence shows is extremely feeble here. 'Maybe they were remarkably stupid or came up with a fiction to justify their crazy belief' isn't better.
Yeah, no. That's not what we are talking about.

What we are talking about is the reliability of extrapolating a self-reporting survey to the general population. Your own citations note that by removing the references to Q, that support dropped in half.

Not convincing? Ok. You cited an article referencing a poll from October 2020. I present another article, also from October 2020, using a poll that found that:

Quote:
The results suggest that most “QAnon supporters” have never even heard of, let alone believe, some of the most outrageous claims associated with it.
https://www.wired.com/story/qanon-su...hink-they-are/

Btw, if you had a couple neurons firing up there, you might have noted that I said I am in a Mid-Atlantic State. The Great State of New Jersey, as it happens. Democrat governor. Democrat Senators. All but one Representative, Democrats. Blue Wall State that goes Democrat in every Presidential election since Regan. Just geographically, you should have been able to figure out that I might not run across Q-tips because they are not much of a thing around here. Instead, you employ confirmation bias and say I am making excuses for...what is not around me.

That doesn't mean they are not a thing in backwoods rural communities. varwoche, above, gave an example of the mayor of a town near him that had a Q-tip for a mayor. That town, as it happens, has half the population of my little beach town's year-round residents, and we are literally 90% vacant during the off-season. My freaking ghost town has double the population of the podunk backwater cited.

And that's why I post the anecdote. I live in the most densely populated State in the Union, bordering NYC, Philly, and DC to the south. The OP is asking for engine room level input, AFAICS. I'm noting that in the actual civilized world here, Q is not much of a visible presence. In backwaters, I'm sure it is more prevalent.

Quote:
This can go on all day because there is just so much damning information. Want to start in on birtherism? I'm sure you know a ton of very reasonable Trump supporting Republicans who 'aren't racist at all' who somehow..
Your mind reading skills are worthy of the MDC. Here is a sampling of my opinions on birtherism that you are so "sure" of:

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not racism, but just the willingness to publically tilt at windmills with a straight face. Birtherism never had the slightest evidence of being reality based; nor does this Chinese fake ballot silliness. It's like they are advertising that they are the Reality Optional party.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It just occurred to.me how much this ballot recount thing is like Birtherism. There is no actual issue, so they make one up to make it seem like there is some kind of shenanigans afoot.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I hear that. As I've posted before, my contempt for Trump goes back to the 80's, when he was sleazing around my beloved Atlantic City, NJ. More than any other public figure, I have wished him....let's say dire misfortune, in case the Secret Service has tabs on the forum.

But as much as I have appreciated President Biden's dedicated public service, I would have much preferred a table-flipper at this point. Voting against Captain Birtherism should not mean practically being required to vote for Seargeant Status Quo.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I could have told you he could do all he did and worse decades ago. From his works in Atlantic City NJ, he showed himself to be a deadbeat with no integrity, a coward, a bully, and profoundly stupid. And this was all before Birtherism but after the Central Park 5.

What shocked me was that people would vote for him. Like, any people. Even fascists value strength and integrity. Trump brought literally nothing desirable to the table for any demographic. That's why I have no fear of him. I fear a smart, charismatic sociopath who picks up on the pattern and throws his hat in the ring.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Trump is conniving enough that he would have gotten birtherism out one way or another, with the same end result: an audience that lapped it up like dogs. One way or the other, there was a base looking for that kind of drivel. No one book or whatever was in a vacuum.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
There was something about birtherism, too. He was on the national stage bravely Jim Crowing a sitting President.

No one can seriously say his racism was not worn openly after the first public howling for a long-form birth certificate, which no one, including Trump, actually has.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And that is exactly why we have, as you say, different perceptions of the world. I do not get mine from ******* Fox news, or anything they say. Nor does Trump's campaign bluster from three years ago affect my experience. He also ranted about birtherism. You know what? That horse**** was not the way I experience the world either.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I mean any passing resemblance to dignity and prudence. I say without hyperbole that he lacks the class needed to clean the White House toilets. This is the champion of Birtherism we are talking about, who brags about deadbeating on his debts.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Because President Trump was not and is not a viable candidate for that office. It is not an issue of voting for Republican, or conservative principles. The issue is voting for Hector Commacho Mountain Dew whatever his name was. One of the dimmest bulbs known to the general American public. The Birther Boy himself. One of the most crass and divisive habitual liars in the public eye. And dumb as a brick to boot. It's not about what he could do for you. It's that he won't be able to do much for anyone.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Some people voted for President Trump because of a sincere commitment to conservative principles, without a racist bone in their bodies. No doubt. But I don't think any could claim that they were unaware that they were voting for a pretty open racist after the Birther thing.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And based on a Birther in the Oval Office, they are not likely to be. Need to hold their collective feet to the fire till they have some respect for truth.


Still "sure" about my views on birtherism? You really suck at this.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2021, 08:05 AM   #182
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 4,673
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
No, it is not contrary to your own evidence. Did you understand what you were citing? I don't even have to get into how belief the election was stolen has actually grown among the GOP (newer poll) because your own link says most of them already thought that. 56% said the election was the result of fraud and 19% claim they don't know. Your own 'range of beliefs' says that only a quarter of Republicans accept the clear and repeatedly proven, widely and intensely reported, reality. This is not evidence that supports your hypothesis.
So the differences of opinion do not mean there are differences of opinion?
I said there was a range of beliefs: there is. My point, which you have clearly misunderstood, is that Republicans are not some monolithic block of conspiratard stupidity. There are still sane, or sane-ish people, in that party.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
More than that, "As a result, 87% of Republicans believe it is important that the government place new limits on voting to protect elections from fraud." Do you really not understand how this is proof what what I and poster like Joe have been saying? Almost 9 in 10 Republicans want to limit voting based on something you say they don't actually believe enough to say they believe that. Based on something this same exact survey says they themselves report not believing.
As do 63% of Democrats. Are they also crazy for believing the same thing?
Oh, and you don't agree with JoeMorgue, because he thinks the polls are invalid because the respondents lied.
10% of Democrats believe that Trump won the election, by the way, and 40% of Republicans did not believe that the protesters who gathered at the Capitol were peaceful and law-abiding.
Cherry-picking the data, and ignoring the inconvenient parts, does not make you morally or factually correct.
There is a range of beliefs. This claim is supported by the evidence, and no amount of scornful shouting is going to change that.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2021, 08:07 AM   #183
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 35,556
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
So the differences of opinion do not mean there are differences of opinion?
If they all vote the same way, no.

Again and I'll bring this up over and over and over until you acknowledge or address it, you are trying to disprove people POLITICS by arguing about their OPINIONS.

Yes by definition everyone who votes for Trump POLITICALLY are a lot of things they may or may not be personally.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 7th October 2021 at 08:09 AM.
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2021, 08:08 AM   #184
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 4,673
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
What? Isn't that what you mentioned in the OP?
Yes. I was quoting the Great Zaganza.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2021, 08:09 AM   #185
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 4,673
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Perhaps once you take in tyr_13's post, you'll rethink these emojis.
Actually, no, I don't think I will.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2021, 08:38 AM   #186
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 15,645
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
So the differences of opinion do not mean there are differences of opinion?
I said there was a range of beliefs: there is. My point, which you have clearly misunderstood, is that Republicans are not some monolithic block of conspiratard stupidity. There are still sane, or sane-ish people, in that party.



As do 63% of Democrats. Are they also crazy for believing the same thing?
Oh, and you don't agree with JoeMorgue, because he thinks the polls are invalid because the respondents lied.
10% of Democrats believe that Trump won the election, by the way, and 40% of Republicans did not believe that the protesters who gathered at the Capitol were peaceful and law-abiding.
Cherry-picking the data, and ignoring the inconvenient parts, does not make you morally or factually correct.
There is a range of beliefs. This claim is supported by the evidence, and no amount of scornful shouting is going to change that.
Of course there's a range of beliefs. That's a vapid truism.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2021, 09:32 AM   #187
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,737
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah, no. That's not what we are talking about.

What we are talking about is the reliability of extrapolating a self-reporting survey to the general population. Your own citations note that by removing the references to Q, that support dropped in half.

Not convincing? Ok. You cited an article referencing a poll from October 2020. I present another article, also from October 2020, using a poll that found that:



https://www.wired.com/story/qanon-su...hink-they-are/

Btw, if you had a couple neurons firing up there, you might have noted that I said I am in a Mid-Atlantic State. The Great State of New Jersey, as it happens. Democrat governor. Democrat Senators. All but one Representative, Democrats. Blue Wall State that goes Democrat in every Presidential election since Regan. Just geographically, you should have been able to figure out that I might not run across Q-tips because they are not much of a thing around here. Instead, you employ confirmation bias and say I am making excuses for...what is not around me.

That doesn't mean they are not a thing in backwoods rural communities. varwoche, above, gave an example of the mayor of a town near him that had a Q-tip for a mayor. That town, as it happens, has half the population of my little beach town's year-round residents, and we are literally 90% vacant during the off-season. My freaking ghost town has double the population of the podunk backwater cited.

And that's why I post the anecdote. I live in the most densely populated State in the Union, bordering NYC, Philly, and DC to the south. The OP is asking for engine room level input, AFAICS. I'm noting that in the actual civilized world here, Q is not much of a visible presence. In backwaters, I'm sure it is more prevalent.



Your mind reading skills are worthy of the MDC. Here is a sampling of my opinions on birtherism that you are so "sure" of:




Still "sure" about my views on birtherism? You really suck at this.

This is a beautiful post. Just a marvel of irony and faux indignation.

I must 'really suck at' reading your mind when my claim was about the, "ton of very reasonable Trump supporting Republicans," you were sure to know which you would wrongly believe meant anything overall for the GOP, and not about your beliefs on birtherism. How could I make the mistake of not arguing the thing that would have made your response make sense?

I must not have a functioning brain either, because I was able to follow the claims about elite Democrats running child sex trafficking rings was about that and not about Q directly. How could I not realize that my saying the belief in a crazy and stupid CT could spread beyond the support for the originators of the CT wouldn't align with your focus on Q. I guess the original poster of that made the same mistake by not mentioning Q either. What a vile villainy we've done on you by arguing in ways that don't preemptively support your arguments, and in fact make them look foolish!

Yeah, your apologetics are wrong.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2021, 09:44 AM   #188
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 16,086
We had more than four years of Trump apologetics on why he isn't actually that bad.
And every day we learned more about how he is actually at least as bad
The time when Republicans could ask for the benefit of the doubt is long, long gone.
__________________
“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”
-Anne Lamott
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2021, 09:45 AM   #189
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,737
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
So the differences of opinion do not mean there are differences of opinion?
I said there was a range of beliefs: there is. My point, which you have clearly misunderstood, is that Republicans are not some monolithic block of conspiratard stupidity. There are still sane, or sane-ish people, in that party.
It means it doesn't currently matter. It means the generalities you keep objecting to are correct.

It really, truly, deeply, doesn't matter that you want to think well of some people in the GOP. At all. They all still politically support the lies, delusions, and insanity cited. Your 'point' hasn't been misunderstood, it has been dismissed as irrelevant. 'There are some sane Republicans' in no way changes 'The Republicans are operating on lies and idiotic beliefs'.

And you keep citing things that support that, and indicating they don't for some reason. Your evidence is in line with what others have argued. You presenting it as if if were not doesn't change that.



Quote:
As do 63% of Democrats. Are they also crazy for believing the same thing?
Oh, and you don't agree with JoeMorgue, because he thinks the polls are invalid because the respondents lied.
10% of Democrats believe that Trump won the election, by the way, and 40% of Republicans did not believe that the protesters who gathered at the Capitol were peaceful and law-abiding.
Cherry-picking the data, and ignoring the inconvenient parts, does not make you morally or factually correct.
There is a range of beliefs. This claim is supported by the evidence, and no amount of scornful shouting is going to change that.
That information still doesn't support your argument! Why do you think 'a minority of the GOP came to the obvious correct conclusion on a different point' changes things? Your cherries are better to pick, even though the cherries you picked still show them operating on falsehoods?

I am factually correct, even by your own citations and you can be salty about it all you want. 'There are a range of beliefs' doesn't mean jack when the fact is 'and most of the GOP pick factually untrue ones'.

This isn't 'scornful shouting', this is 'told you so'. You didn't come here to learn anything, but to support your existing bias that 'they can't be that bad, can they'?

They can, and are. Another pharmacist was murdered a couple days ago for giving the covid vaccines. Guess which party has been pushing covid ct? Go on. Guess.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2021, 10:56 AM   #190
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 35,556
I don't remember the Right having this obsession with tolerance of other opinion's back when they were in charge and controlling all the narratives.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2021, 03:33 PM   #191
ahhell
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,797
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't remember the Right having this obsession with tolerance of other opinion's back when they were in charge and controlling all the narratives.
Funny how that works, the people in power just don't care about free speech or tolerance of dissent that much.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2021, 07:02 PM   #192
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 15,645
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
... 'There are a range of beliefs' doesn't mean jack when the fact is 'and most of the GOP pick factually untrue ones'.
Not merely untrue -- pro authoritarian, anti democracy.

The GOP was already a **** show before Trump. And then they were subsumed by Trumpism. And Trumpism remains the driving force, no matter the "range of opinions" drivel.

We have a two party system, and one of them fundamentally opposes democracy. That's a big problem.

(I'm making these points for CY's benefit.)
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2021, 09:22 PM   #193
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,816
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Funny how that works, the people in power just don't care about free speech or tolerance of dissent that much.
In this Red State, I know from past experiences that if I fully exercised my free speech rights that I was supposed to have under the Constitution, I would be shot dead for doing so, By the people who call themselves Constitutionalist!
What a Joke our Constitution and this Country have become, because one party is insane!
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th October 2021, 10:12 PM   #194
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,725
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The best way for Europeans to understand America is probably in terms of the EU and the EC. A thread on the ISF forums is probably the second worst way.
That analogy might be close to the way the USA was at first a couple of centuries ago, but not anymore, and, worse yet, it focuses on formal political structure, which is not a particularly important factor in determining how people think on issues other than formal political structure.

The biggest factor in that is the separation of our information sources. Each political side now has sources that will present the news in whatever form that side wants to hear, which is also usually what their audience grew up hearing all the time from their parents, teachers, neighbors, and so on. If you grow up hearing something claimed consistently & repeatedly and never hear it contested, you'll probably believe it for life. If you grow up hearing something claimed consistently & repeatedly and then eventually encounter some people from outside your original circle contradicting it, you'll probably not believe that contradiction. That becomes part of how you judge new information sources. Those that already agree with you on familiar subjects seem believable, so a new unfamiliar claim from then can be believed; those that already disagree with you on familiar subjects don't seem believable, so a new unfamiliar claim from them can't be believed.

And that puts what one group thinks partially in an opposing group's control. I grew up hearing conservative assertions, and when I eventually started hearing more from lefties, it was extremely light on on-topic facts & logic, and extremely heavy on false accusations about our character (which also amounted to claims of being able to read minds). I've said this before and the response has been "we don't care if we hurt their feelings", but it's never been about feelings (and to pretend it is/was is just another false accusation). It's about how people assess facts. There's no more efficient & powerful way to prove to somebody else that you are a liar, to a rather extreme degree, than to tell him/her that you know what (s)he's thinking and get it wrong. For those of you who are already mentally resisting that notion, if you're not Christian, consider how convincing it is and how perfectly sensible and trustworthy a Christian sounds when (s)he tells you that you really know Christianity is all true and the only reason you reject it is because you love to sin. That kind of behavior doesn't just tell the speaker's audience (s)he's hateful/mean; it also tells them that (s)he's such a liar that even if (s)he were to ever muster anything on an actual subject, that would just be more lies too. It puts the speaker another large step in liarhood beyond "normal" or even merely pathological liars.

Even if you do have the facts on your side, this is exactly how to make sure that as many of the opposition as possible will never believe them. They'll believe the opposite instead just because it came from a source that's known to be so deeply, fundamentally dishonest. So it magnifies the tendency for each side to have its own set of facts from its own trusted sources and reject anything that came from those other sources that keep lying at every turn.

Last edited by Delvo; 7th October 2021 at 10:15 PM.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th October 2021, 01:52 AM   #195
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 4,673
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Of course there's a range of beliefs. That's a vapid truism.
No, it isn't.
Firstly, because I keep getting told that there isn't a range of beliefs, and, secondly, because I'm also getting told that, even if there is a range of beliefs, it doesn't make any difference.
I am struggling to understand this concept. Perhaps someone can explain it without shouting at me, insulting my intelligence or generally trolling me. (I have been holding off on that term for a while now, but I'm calling it out for what it is now: getting properly sick of being attacked by people who don't listen to me, don't want to listen to me, assume I'm dishonest and insincere, and who are trying to mask their hatred and intolerance behind a façade of 'we're the good guys' ********).

What I think is being said here is this:
A small minority of current Republicans might be reasonable and sane, but the majority are not.
OTOH, others have said that, actually, quite a lot of them are actually quite reasonable, the apparent extremism is magnified by media or whatever, and also that the party grandees, who have now bought into Trumpist extremism, don't represent these voters, never did represent them, but these voters vote for them anyway because they can't stomach voting Democrat.
There is no valid data to support either of these propositions, so reality is decided by who shouts the loudest.
Really, this is what I'm hearing.
Furthermore, the political system in America is so structured that there is no real way for party supporters to influence the actions of the party leaders who supposedly represent them. American politicians are completely unaccountable. This is more of an issue for the Republicans, because these leaders (not just Trump, but all of them) are basically bad people. Even if grassroots Republicans aren't bad, their leaders are, and they'll blindly vote for them anyway.
OTOH, most of the grassroots GOP supporters are also bad people, who don't believe in democracy, facts, science, diversity, tolerance or any other measure of reason or justice, so they get the leaders they deserve.

It's all really contradictory, and also contrary to what I believed before about the US being a functioning, functional democracy. If anyone can sort this into a more comprehensible form, I'd like to read it.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th October 2021, 02:33 AM   #196
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 32,538
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
A small minority of current Republicans might be reasonable and sane, but the majority are not.
OTOH, others have said that, actually, quite a lot of them are actually quite reasonable, the apparent extremism is magnified by media or whatever, and also that the party grandees, who have now bought into Trumpist extremism, don't represent these voters, never did represent them, but these voters vote for them anyway because they can't stomach voting Democrat.
The majority of Republican voters say that they think that the election was stolen from Donald Trump by a cadre of "Deep State" operatives.

That sounds pretty extremist to me
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th October 2021, 02:36 AM   #197
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 16,086
Okay, maybe this will help you understand:
US conservatives, individually, are reasonable and kind. If you survey them about the policies they support without giving a hint if they are progressive or not, you will find that (as individuals) they want what mainstream Democrats want.
The difference is that conservatives are more likely to be part of a social group that is also politically active than the average Democrat: NRA, Churches, MLM schemes, local history societies, hunting etc. etc.
And the reason why there are so many of these groups is because they are very generously funded by Right-wingers like the Koch Brothers.
While most members of the NRA are just interested in gun sport, hunting, self defense and gun safety (and sensible gun control), the heads of their organisation are radical-right wing and they pretend to have the full support of their members for their policies.
Republicans act for the benefit of the organizations, not their members.
__________________
“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”
-Anne Lamott
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th October 2021, 03:02 AM   #198
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,816
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
No, it isn't.
Firstly, because I keep getting told that there isn't a range of beliefs, and, secondly, because I'm also getting told that, even if there is a range of beliefs, it doesn't make any difference.
I am struggling to understand this concept. Perhaps someone can explain it without shouting at me, insulting my intelligence or generally trolling me. (I have been holding off on that term for a while now, but I'm calling it out for what it is now: getting properly sick of being attacked by people who don't listen to me, don't want to listen to me, assume I'm dishonest and insincere, and who are trying to mask their hatred and intolerance behind a façade of 'we're the good guys' ********).

What I think is being said here is this:
A small minority of current Republicans might be reasonable and sane, but the majority are not.
OTOH, others have said that, actually, quite a lot of them are actually quite reasonable, the apparent extremism is magnified by media or whatever, and also that the party grandees, who have now bought into Trumpist extremism, don't represent these voters, never did represent them, but these voters vote for them anyway because they can't stomach voting Democrat.
There is no valid data to support either of these propositions, so reality is decided by who shouts the loudest.
Really, this is what I'm hearing.
Furthermore, the political system in America is so structured that there is no real way for party supporters to influence the actions of the party leaders who supposedly represent them. American politicians are completely unaccountable. This is more of an issue for the Republicans, because these leaders (not just Trump, but all of them) are basically bad people. Even if grassroots Republicans aren't bad, their leaders are, and they'll blindly vote for them anyway.
OTOH, most of the grassroots GOP supporters are also bad people, who don't believe in democracy, facts, science, diversity, tolerance or any other measure of reason or justice, so they get the leaders they deserve.

It's all really contradictory, and also contrary to what I believed before about the US being a functioning, functional democracy. If anyone can sort this into a more comprehensible form, I'd like to read it.
Republicans basically want a return to the Guilded age, and they are willing to Kill and start a Civil War if they have to, to take America back to that greedy time.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th October 2021, 06:11 AM   #199
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 32,538
Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Republicans basically want a return to the Guilded age, and they are willing to Kill and start a Civil War if they have to, to take America back to that greedy time.
IMO it depends.

I think you're right that the people funding the Republican party want a return to the Gilded Age (or something similar) where environmental and workers' protections were non-existent and the rich were left to their own devices.

The red-hatted MAGA supporters on the other hand seem instead to be pining for a rose-tinted version of the 1950s where a working-class man could earn enough to raise a family and women, children, dogs and minorities knew their place. I think those people should have to live a 1950s lifestyle and see how they actually get on.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th October 2021, 06:33 AM   #200
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,816
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IMO it depends.

I think you're right that the people funding the Republican party want a return to the Gilded Age (or something similar) where environmental and workers' protections were non-existent and the rich were left to their own devices.

The red-hatted MAGA supporters on the other hand seem instead to be pining for a rose-tinted version of the 1950s where a working-class man could earn enough to raise a family and women, children, dogs and minorities knew their place. I think those people should have to live a 1950s lifestyle and see how they actually get on.
Yes I agree the Darwinian Capitalist have fooled the Religious Right though deceptive conspiracy theories, and Made people like Mitch McConnell very Rich while making Citizens poor.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:44 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.