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Old 8th October 2021, 06:42 AM   #201
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I think both views are right.

The Rich Right has sold the Poor Right on their "Guilded Age" (that never actually exist) is gone because the Left won't let them be Robber Barons anymore.
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Old 8th October 2021, 06:52 AM   #202
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Gilded Age. No 'u.' A glistering veneer of wealth and prominence laid foil-thin over abject poverty and human suffering.

Guilded Age is a remarkably good webcomic.
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Old 8th October 2021, 07:29 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I said there was a range of beliefs: there is. My point, which you have clearly misunderstood, is that Republicans are not some monolithic block of conspiratard stupidity. There are still sane, or sane-ish people, in that party.
True.

Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Of course there's a range of beliefs. That's a vapid truism.
True.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Firstly, because I keep getting told that there isn't a range of beliefs, and, secondly, because I'm also getting told that, even if there is a range of beliefs, it doesn't make any difference.
Just as there is a range of beliefs among those who self-identify as Republican, there is also a range of opinions among members of this forum.

You continue to express surprise, even frustration, about that fact.
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Old 8th October 2021, 07:42 AM   #204
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This thread is an excellent example of what is wrong in American politics. Cosmic Yak asked a pretty simple question. The “answers” came in the form of rhetoric from a few people who are just , basically, louder and more obnoxious than others. America in a nutshell.

I can assure you that most Americans are not anything like the caricatures you see on the Internet.

I have voted Republican for most of my adult life. Up until the last two elections, in fact. I believe Global Warming is real, caused by our actions and needs to be addressed. I think QAnon is a bunch of crazy bovine excrement. I’d like to see healthcare reform (even if I don’t support “Medicare for all”). I’d like to us to have a strong social safety net.

I may disagree with Democrats on exactly how to accomplish things (I believe incentives work best) but I actually do want the same outcomes they want, for the most part.

I know some die-hard republicans that come close to the caricatures. But even they want the same things and are a little more nuanced than that.

The reason you don’t see me and people like me on the political part of the forum very much these days is that I get vilified and shouted down. If I say something like, for example, “I don’t support Medicare for all,” Well, that “must” mean that I “want people to die.” It got old.

I really don’t think you are going to get satisfactory answers on this forum, Cosmic Yak. What you will get is a beautiful illustration, though.
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Old 8th October 2021, 07:50 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I know some die-hard republicans that come close to the caricatures.
... you mean the ones that actually get elected?

"No at all Republicans are like that, just the ones we decide to elect as our leaders" is a weird thing to mother-hen us all over.

I don't know how much I have to bring up that people are using their opinions to try and defend their politics before someone will address it.
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Old 8th October 2021, 08:04 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
This thread is an excellent example of what is wrong in American politics. Cosmic Yak asked a pretty simple question. The “answers” came in the form of rhetoric from a few people who are just , basically, louder and more obnoxious than others. America in a nutshell.

I can assure you that most Americans are not anything like the caricatures you see on the Internet.

I have voted Republican for most of my adult life. Up until the last two elections, in fact. I believe Global Warming is real, caused by our actions and needs to be addressed. I think QAnon is a bunch of crazy bovine excrement. I’d like to see healthcare reform (even if I don’t support “Medicare for all”). I’d like to us to have a strong social safety net.

I may disagree with Democrats on exactly how to accomplish things (I believe incentives work best) but I actually do want the same outcomes they want, for the most part.

I know some die-hard republicans that come close to the caricatures. But even they want the same things and are a little more nuanced than that.

The reason you don’t see me and people like me on the political part of the forum very much these days is that I get vilified and shouted down. If I say something like, for example, “I don’t support Medicare for all,” Well, that “must” mean that I “want people to die.” It got old.

I really don’t think you are going to get satisfactory answers on this forum, Cosmic Yak. What you will get is a beautiful illustration, though.
As I stated I was Republican until 2008, when Republicans showed me I was No longer welcome in their party, with the idiot conspiracy theorists Like Donald John Trump. They infact took away my right to freely express myself though Threats and Intimidation!
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Old 8th October 2021, 08:37 AM   #207
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Cosmic Yak is not asking who gets elected. He knows this. AFAICT, he is asking if republicans "on the street" are generally the drooling rabid idiots they are made out to be.

Who gets elected has more to do with who throws their hat in the ring, and how much support they can muster. The big thing with that is that the last candidate standing may not be remotely who you want, so you have no choice that represents who you want to represent your beliefs and values.

Flip the argument to the Dems. There was tremendous grass roots support for Senator Sanders. But come election time, President Biden had the nomination. Democrats were told, and bluntly, not to vote their conscience, but to vote for a man they didn't want so as not to split the ticket.

Republicans are in the same boat. Ex-President Trump was able to weasel his way into a nomination. That left republicans with the same choice: back the whack job and hope basic republican ideals (the traditional ones) will stagger along, or lose to the opposition.

It sucks, but that's where we are at. I didn't particularly want either Secretary Clinton or President Biden in the Oval Office, but I voted for both. They didn't represent what I thought was best, but I had no other choice, because I was confident that it would split the ticket and Trump would be worse. It's the Prisoner's Dilemma on Election Day.
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Old 8th October 2021, 08:52 AM   #208
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On one hand, we have what Republicans say and how they treat some individuals they personally know.

On the other hand, we have what they say and do both politically and to people outside their in groups.

These are not equal evidence for what they operate on politically.

You know the saying, 'If he's nice to you but mean to the wait staff, he's not actually nice'? That applies in politics too. Someone who says they believe in science (or democracy, or whatever) but then vote and politically engage in ways that operate against that stated belief, then their politics denies science. They literally vote for that to represent them politically. And no, there is not 'nothing' they can do. They can not vote for the GOP who work against what they say they believe and put forward primary candidates who would, even if they can't 'bring themselves' to vote for someone from the party whose actions reflect what the 'reasonable' Republican says they support. They can organize and call their Congress person to tell them they'll not vote for them again if they don't ship up. Do they do that? Nope. As a group they do that oppose fair voting practices or BLM or the like.

And does that mean I'm calling Republican voters 'bad people'? Eh. What they are doing is failing their civic duties and is harmful, but what they are as individuals is different. One simply doesn't have to be a raving monster to all the people they know to be wrong or deluded. There were 'nice' Nazis ('OMG he's calling the GOP Nazis again, see this is where the intolerant left is really just calling everyone evil' *jerkoff motion*). They weren't even all hating the Jewish people, even as they supported politics that led to genocide against them. If one sees these criticisms of what the Republican politics are, how unflattering and bad these politics are, but then get confused because of how 'reasonable seeming' GOP voters are individually, then one is making a fundamental error in how humans human. 'You'd have to be a bad or evil person to do these political things, evil people are cruel constantly and to everyone, these people seem really nice to me, therefore they don't actually do these things politically' is just really wrong reasoning.

And the leveraging their apologists do to jump from accurately describing how bad the right wing politics are in the US right now to personal affront and indignation is illustrative of how they think about such things. They are socially insecure and are more swayed by social identity considerations than by following the evidence, than to the truth, than to the country. 'Are you calling me and my g-ma a liar?' Sure, if that's what you want to use to avoid talking about the specifics of the wrong you're doing, get upset.

Be upset all you like over people getting over coddling the social insecurities of people who are literally voting for the people trying to overturn our democracy. Literally. That is what they are doing. If you want to judge who they are based on that, whatever, but it doesn't change the problems with what they are doing and it doesn't somehow, perversely, reflect badly on the people correctly identifying the problems. Duh.
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Old 8th October 2021, 08:53 AM   #209
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Good someone else said it. Maybe now someone else will acknowledge it.
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Old 8th October 2021, 09:24 AM   #210
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It was being ignored because it's utter bilge not worth bothering with.
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Old 8th October 2021, 09:40 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
It was being ignored because it's utter bilge not worth bothering with.
So we're really going with "I'm offended because you called my politics pro-bleen even just because I vote for pro-bleen politicians even though I call myself anti-bleen."

That's a nice twisted state of mind if you can talk yourself into it I guess.
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Old 8th October 2021, 09:43 AM   #212
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I'm anti-being-Golman-Sachs-bitch. I voted for Sec Clinton. I guess I showed my hand at really being pro-Golman-Sachs-bitch? You so smart.
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Old 8th October 2021, 10:02 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'm anti-being-Golman-Sachs-bitch. I voted for Sec Clinton. I guess I showed my hand at really being pro-Golman-Sachs-bitch? You so smart.
yes, you did. Revealed preferences.
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Old 8th October 2021, 10:06 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
yes, you did. Revealed preferences.
Seems I'm anti-D when spelling Goldman Sachs too. Quite the introspectively learning experience this is turning out to be.
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Old 8th October 2021, 10:17 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
It was being ignored because it's utter bilge not worth bothering with.
For that to be true, it would have to be true that you can't determine much about someone's politics from their political activity.

Why? Because you know some Republicans who are nice to you and deny supporting what they politically support? I live in a conservative area. I have family that I love who do good things and who I know would have supported, with violence if needed, Trump's coup ending US democracy. It isn't being disloyal to them to accept that reality, and truth matters more regardless. This 'personal grievance' card again shows just how much more the right wing values threats to their personal character's valuation in certain social hierarchies are than they do in reality. This is why it is such a personal affront to them, and their apologists, to recognize the reality of their political beliefs. This is why the jump to 'are you saying I'm the bad guy'?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'm anti-being-Golman-Sachs-bitch. I voted for Sec Clinton. I guess I showed my hand at really being pro-Golman-Sachs-bitch? You so smart.
If that were the extent of your voting, sure.

If you want to be intellectually honest and not reduce this to a single vote, no.
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Old 8th October 2021, 10:17 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Good someone else said it. Maybe now someone else will acknowledge it.
Sure, but only because I used more words and they think they might therefore have more openings to spin and attack it.
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Old 8th October 2021, 10:19 AM   #217
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Yeah the whole "Oh but the guy who voted for the racist, sexist, pro-coup candidate let me borrow a cup of sugar last winter" is a pretty narrow way of thinking.
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Old 8th October 2021, 11:24 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So we're really going with "I'm offended because you called my politics pro-bleen even just because I vote for pro-bleen politicians even though I call myself anti-bleen."
No, in more than one way, and I have no doubt that you know it. But at least the stellar level of honesty there was yet another perfect demonstration of the point.

What reason do you think lying about your interlocutors, to your interlocutors, over & over again, at every single step of the way, gives your interlocutors to take anything else you have to say seriously, ever?

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
For that to be true, it would have to be true that you can't determine much about someone's politics from their political activity.
No, only that you can't determine anything about one person through the way another person looks at things. And that remains the case regardless of any shallow rhetorical gimmick you come up with to use to keep trying to infuse yourself into your "them".
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Old 8th October 2021, 11:38 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
This thread is an excellent example of what is wrong in American politics. Cosmic Yak asked a pretty simple question. The “answers” came in the form of rhetoric from a few people who are just , basically, louder and more obnoxious than others. America in a nutshell.

I can assure you that most Americans are not anything like the caricatures you see on the Internet.

I have voted Republican for most of my adult life. Up until the last two elections, in fact. I believe Global Warming is real, caused by our actions and needs to be addressed. I think QAnon is a bunch of crazy bovine excrement. I’d like to see healthcare reform (even if I don’t support “Medicare for all”). I’d like to us to have a strong social safety net.

I may disagree with Democrats on exactly how to accomplish things (I believe incentives work best) but I actually do want the same outcomes they want, for the most part.

I know some die-hard republicans that come close to the caricatures. But even they want the same things and are a little more nuanced than that.

The reason you don’t see me and people like me on the political part of the forum very much these days is that I get vilified and shouted down. If I say something like, for example, “I don’t support Medicare for all,” Well, that “must” mean that I “want people to die.” It got old.

I really don’t think you are going to get satisfactory answers on this forum, Cosmic Yak. What you will get is a beautiful illustration, though.
And this post is a good example of how disingenuous the right is.

You say you believe in climate change and that it's manmade, that you want healthcare reform, and a strong social safety net right? So what were you doing voting Republican before Trump came around?

Republicans never supported ANY of these things and have no intention of doing anything about them. They didn't suddenly change with Trump, he just opened the door for them to stop pretending they care about anybody but themselves.

So my only conclusions are that you either don't actually support the issues you've stated, or you do, and just don't care enough about them for them to be important to you.
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Old 8th October 2021, 11:40 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
No, only that you can't determine anything about one person through the way another person looks at things. And that remains the case regardless of any shallow rhetorical gimmick you come up with to use to keep trying to infuse yourself into your "them".
Nonsense. Reality isn't 'how you view things' and the goal was never 'to determine about one person'.

This is an insanely weak handwave. 'They don't see it that way'. So? That doesn't in any way change what they are doing. Using the evidence of what they are doing isn't a 'shallow gimmick'. Come on. You're doing the 'it's just an opinion' dodge. You can't 'opinion' away political activity.
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Old 8th October 2021, 02:22 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
And this post is a good example of how disingenuous the right is.

You say you believe in climate change and that it's manmade, that you want healthcare reform, and a strong social safety net right? So what were you doing voting Republican before Trump came around?

Republicans never supported ANY of these things and have no intention of doing anything about them. They didn't suddenly change with Trump, he just opened the door for them to stop pretending they care about anybody but themselves.

So my only conclusions are that you either don't actually support the issues you've stated, or you do, and just don't care enough about them for them to be important to you.

See what I mean? It’s impossible to have a rational discussion about politics on this forum.


But…you want to know something? It’s true that the GOP has no intention of doing anything about those issues. The badly kept secret is that neither does the Democratic Party. What did they do during the Clinton era? Absolutely nothing. The Obama era? Very, very little -lip service, really. What is the Biden admin doing about those issues? Haven’t heard a peep in the way of legislation. The House should be passing bill after bill on those issues even if the Senate rejects them. If they were truly important and the average American truly cared about them they would be forcing the GOP to tell the American People “No.”

But they don’t do that. For a host of reasons, but the main one is that it won’t get them anywhere politically. They will lose corporate donations and they will lose votes. Because the dirty truth is that We the People, as a whole, don’t really care about inequality, health care or climate change. If we did, Bernie Sanders would have won the primary in a landslide. The Green Party would get a lot more votes than they do. Instead, we elect the same old kinds of politicians.
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Old 8th October 2021, 02:24 PM   #222
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And here comes the bothsidesism, right on cue.
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Old 8th October 2021, 03:14 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
See what I mean? It’s impossible to have a rational discussion about politics on this forum.


But…you want to know something? It’s true that the GOP has no intention of doing anything about those issues. The badly kept secret is that neither does the Democratic Party. What did they do during the Clinton era? Absolutely nothing. The Obama era? Very, very little -lip service, really. What is the Biden admin doing about those issues? Haven’t heard a peep in the way of legislation. The House should be passing bill after bill on those issues even if the Senate rejects them. If they were truly important and the average American truly cared about them they would be forcing the GOP to tell the American People “No.”

But they don’t do that. For a host of reasons, but the main one is that it won’t get them anywhere politically. They will lose corporate donations and they will lose votes. Because the dirty truth is that We the People, as a whole, don’t really care about inequality, health care or climate change. If we did, Bernie Sanders would have won the primary in a landslide. The Green Party would get a lot more votes than they do. Instead, we elect the same old kinds of politicians.
There are only so many days in a legislative session. There really isn't time to waste doing stuff that won't pass.

lot of hurry up and wait
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Old 8th October 2021, 03:58 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
This thread is an excellent example of what is wrong in American politics. Cosmic Yak asked a pretty simple question. The “answers” came in the form of rhetoric from a few people who are just , basically, louder and more obnoxious than others. America in a nutshell.

I can assure you that most Americans are not anything like the caricatures you see on the Internet.

I have voted Republican for most of my adult life. Up until the last two elections, in fact. I believe Global Warming is real, caused by our actions and needs to be addressed. I think QAnon is a bunch of crazy bovine excrement. I’d like to see healthcare reform (even if I don’t support “Medicare for all”). I’d like to us to have a strong social safety net.

I may disagree with Democrats on exactly how to accomplish things (I believe incentives work best) but I actually do want the same outcomes they want, for the most part.

I know some die-hard republicans that come close to the caricatures. But even they want the same things and are a little more nuanced than that.

The reason you don’t see me and people like me on the political part of the forum very much these days is that I get vilified and shouted down. If I say something like, for example, “I don’t support Medicare for all,” Well, that “must” mean that I “want people to die.” It got old.

I really don’t think you are going to get satisfactory answers on this forum, Cosmic Yak. What you will get is a beautiful illustration, though.
The first page wasn't bad. Even people I mostly disagree with were initially reasonable but then the internet.
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Old 8th October 2021, 04:00 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
And here comes the bothsidesism, right on cue.

Maybe you should try listening and thoughtfully responding rather than just slapping a dismissive label on everything?

I’d be willing to bet that we are all aligned on more things than we are not. We all want the same things. The only thing that divides us is which “team” we root for. I think it’s high time to acknowledge that this team system of governance isn’t working for We the People, to put aside those ridiculous labels and actually listen to each other for once. I’ve really been trying to do that lately. Which is why I’ve been avoiding the US Politics forum for awhile now.
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Old 8th October 2021, 05:06 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Maybe you should try listening and thoughtfully responding rather than just slapping a dismissive label on everything?

I’d be willing to bet that we are all aligned on more things than we are not. We all want the same things. The only thing that divides us is which “team” we root for. I think it’s high time to acknowledge that this team system of governance isn’t working for We the People, to put aside those ridiculous labels and actually listen to each other for once. I’ve really been trying to do that lately. Which is why I’ve been avoiding the US Politics forum for awhile now.
You're a Republican. We don't want the same things.

Your party and ideology has done nothing but drag this country down into the muck, and that was long before Trump.
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Old 8th October 2021, 05:29 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Maybe you should try listening and thoughtfully responding rather than just slapping a dismissive label on everything?

I’d be willing to bet that we are all aligned on more things than we are not. We all want the same things. The only thing that divides us is which “team” we root for. I think it’s high time to acknowledge that this team system of governance isn’t working for We the People, to put aside those ridiculous labels and actually listen to each other for once. I’ve really been trying to do that lately. Which is why I’ve been avoiding the US Politics forum for awhile now.
The Lincoln project has done a lot of good even though they are conservative, as for me I just try and pick the side that's not actively Trying to kill me.
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Old 8th October 2021, 05:39 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
'They don't see it that way'. So? That doesn't in any way change what they are doing.
And you simply calling your own thoughts facts doesn't make them facts.

Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
And here comes the bothsidesism, right on cue.
Another lie about your interlocutors to your interlocutors, precisely the people whom you have absolutely no chance at all of fooling. It's so nearly absolutely constant that I really fail to imagine how yall think this can possibly have any effect other than throughly discrediting yourselves.

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Old 8th October 2021, 06:01 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
See what I mean? It’s impossible to have a rational discussion about politics on this forum.


But…you want to know something? It’s true that the GOP has no intention of doing anything about those issues. The badly kept secret is that neither does the Democratic Party. What did they do during the Clinton era? Absolutely nothing. The Obama era? Very, very little -lip service, really. What is the Biden admin doing about those issues? Haven’t heard a peep in the way of legislation. The House should be passing bill after bill on those issues even if the Senate rejects them. If they were truly important and the average American truly cared about them they would be forcing the GOP to tell the American People “No.”

But they don’t do that. For a host of reasons, but the main one is that it won’t get them anywhere politically. They will lose corporate donations and they will lose votes. Because the dirty truth is that We the People, as a whole, don’t really care about inequality, health care or climate change. If we did, Bernie Sanders would have won the primary in a landslide. The Green Party would get a lot more votes than they do. Instead, we elect the same old kinds of politicians.
You're right that the dems don't do nearly enough.

The rest is false equivalency and handwaving. Every single one of those administrations made headway on environmental protections and tried hard to do more. Clinton tried to make a lot of headway on healthcare and equality, but didn't do enough. Obama got the ACA passed. You remember Obamacare? The thing the GOP kept trying to repeal? The thing that expanded Medicare and Medicaid? The expansions several Republican states refuse to implement even though it's harming their own? No, it isn't enough, but the Democrats got it done over the howling objections and bad faith arguments, the outright lying propaganda, the GOP used to try to stop it, and to try to repeal it. You consider these actions substantively equivalent? You realize it wouldn't even be a defense of the GOP if it were?

The Obama admin made a bunch of deals to try to start meaningfully addressing global warming, and Trump undid that, and dumping rules, and his GOP friends in government cheered it. The Build Back Better plans and the larger infrastructure bill have a ton of programs to combat global warming. Biden moved substantially to the left on those things because he listened to Sanders and the like.

While all these 'not good enough' advancements are sold as communist plots to destroy America (and replace white people) by the GOP. Not only is global warming' not a problem, anyone who said it is is an anti-American idiot, according the the Republicans for decades now. Recently some have switched to add in 'and you can't change it anyway'. The same is repeated for all these issues, which have become toxic in large part because that's what the GOP has been selling the American people for so many years. How did masks and vaccines become political? It wasn't because the GOP base thought they were but because the Republican party and their media arms sold those things to them as that.

You're right that it is ultimately on all of us, and we have all failed in that way, but that doesn't defend what the GOP has done to make and keep it that way. There just isn't the equivalency for the Dems, whose own flaws and failures are different than actively stopping things.

The expansions in healthcare were the reason my brother had insurance when he went down with brain cancer and the only reason he was able to get the surgery and treatments that have kept him alive to this day. 'Lip service'. There are Republican friends and family in this area who sent us well wishes and gifts and food and have helped my family with my brother's cancer. They still voted for him to be dead. None of them have provided anywhere near the assistance the 'lip service' from the Democrat's changes to our social safety net has. You all want to make it individual, personal? I'm fine with those goalposts too. I'm glad you personally are tying to move past the mechanisms that have made the GOP so toxic, but you're still 'leveling' in the exact way people taken in by catfishing scams do. 'All politicians are like that'. 'Everyone falls for the same tricks'. It makes one feel better but it isn't the correct call.
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Old 8th October 2021, 06:03 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
And you simply calling your own thoughts facts doesn't make them facts.
That they exist in nature is what makes them facts.

You haven't actually made an argument against any of the facts. You've only asserted they don't count because I'm observing them. This is the way a lot on the right think as well; they build it all on personal character. That isn't how skeptics should think obviously.

Calling them 'my thoughts' isn't an argument. Address the facts or don't, but your 'it's all just opinion' assertion remains feeble.
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Old 8th October 2021, 06:25 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
That they exist in nature is what makes them facts.

You haven't actually made an argument against any of the facts.
Right, because they were beside my point.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
You've only asserted they don't count because I'm observing them.
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
your 'it's all just opinion' assertion
False accusations against your interlocutor again. It just goes on & on & on.

What exactly do yall think is so great about completely refusing to ever ever ever muster even the slightest tiniest micro-speck of honesty about almost any aspect at all of the nature of the conversation you're allegedly "participating in" and the people you're allegedly "participating in" it with? What would be so wrong with dealing with even the barest minimal bit of reality about what the conversation even is and who/what the people in it even are? The amount of accuracy in the crap yall keep spewing about me/us is, to replace politics with professions/jobs, like trying to explain my actual job to somebody (quality control in a place where we collect blood plasma for use in making medications) and having him/her/them keep claiming that I'm really a truck-driving vampire who thinks I'm the Duke of Milwaukee. Just why?
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Old 8th October 2021, 06:31 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
The Lincoln project has done a lot of good even though they are conservative, as for me I just try and pick the side that's not actively Trying to kill me.
Interesting that much of the warm reception Lincoln Project receives on social media is from Democrats or "Where Did the Middle Go?" Independents. I'm pessimistic about what they've actually accomplished. I have yet to see the big conservative cable news outlets give them any credit. Trump rules them.
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Old 8th October 2021, 06:31 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Right, because they were beside my point.

False accusations against your interlocutor again. It just goes on & on & on.

What exactly do yall think is so great about completely refusing to ever ever ever muster even the slightest tiniest micro-speck of honesty about almost any aspect at all of the nature of the conversation you're allegedly "participating in" and the people you're allegedly "participating in" it with? What would be so wrong with dealing with even the barest minimal bit of reality about what the conversation even is and who/what the people in it even are? The amount of accuracy in the crap yall keep spewing about me/us is, to replace politics with professions/jobs, like trying to explain my actual job to somebody (quality control in a place where we collect blood plasma for use in making medications) and having him/her/them keep claiming that I'm really a truck-driving vampire who thinks I'm the Duke of Milwaukee. Just why?
All you've doing is say 'you're wrong' and want deference for it.

Nope.

Your assertions are what they are. You can pretend you're saying something different, but you're not entitled to anyone going along with it. Coddling time is over.

This is appropriately a parallel to the entire line of reasoning above, where what one claims their belief is demands primacy over what one's actions are. Nothing you said address the issue, but by god because you claim it does the other person is being dishonest.

Of course you won't even say what the 'aspects' of the conversation I'm denying, because you don't have one.
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Old 8th October 2021, 07:24 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
That they exist in nature is what makes them facts.

You haven't actually made an argument against any of the facts.
Right, because they were beside my point.
Addendum...

If sticking to general principles is getting too awkward, I shall supply a slightly less general type of example.

One of the favorite false accusations from the false-accusation-obsessed crowd is racism. When that accusation is countered, rephrasing it as "well you vote for racists" changes nothing. It's still really the same original accusation just with an added layer of pretense as if it weren't, and, even taking it as completely separate on its own terms, it's also usually equally baseless, referring to somebody who hasn't said or done anything actually racist, sometimes even while supplying "proof" of racism which actually isn't. That would be something that the accuser presumably considers a "fact". But it is actually not a fact, any more than the same accusation was the first time against first accusee before the accuser went all meta about it. This is not to deny that actual racists do exist somewhere out there, but the people who keep sprinkling the accusation all around at the slightest opportunity... if they're not lying, they're hallucinating. There actually aren't racists hiding behind every bush. Their delusion that there are is a "fact" that isn't a fact. So in this case, the "well this voter voted for a racist" claim is not a fact, but it is what the accuser thinks. In fact, even when it is a fact, it's still also what the accuser thinks. So describing it as what the accuser thinks is safely accurate either way, without any need to distinguish between them for that.

Now, since my original point about the ubiquitous dishonesty in all this stuff was about its contribution to the separation of the two sides' information sources...... and I'm sure you're imagining a case where you tell someone (s)he's a racist and get disputed and then accuse him/her of voting for a racist and prove it with an example of that politician actually doing something racist for a change...... the non-racist whom the hypothetical accuser in in this scenario had already previously accused of racism at the beginning almost certainly hadn't heard of that before, so what reason does (s)he have to believe the accuser when (s)he says that? Remember, the accuser already started this scenario by proving himself/herself to be not just a liar in general, but specifically a liar with accusations of racism at non-racists, before (s)he even got to the part where (s)he presented the proof of the third party being racist. That's beyond just crying wolf; that's telling the villagers (s)he's crying to that they were the wolves. Even if a real wolf actually finally does show up for once, everybody's way past the point where that would merely "not matter" anymore.
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Old 8th October 2021, 08:45 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Addendum...

If sticking to general principles is getting too awkward, I shall supply a slightly less general type of example.

One of the favorite false accusations from the false-accusation-obsessed crowd is racism. When that accusation is countered, rephrasing it as "well you vote for racists" changes nothing. It's still really the same original accusation just with an added layer of pretense as if it weren't, and, even taking it as completely separate on its own terms, it's also usually equally baseless, referring to somebody who hasn't said or done anything actually racist, sometimes even while supplying "proof" of racism which actually isn't. That would be something that the accuser presumably considers a "fact". But it is actually not a fact, any more than the same accusation was the first time against first accusee before the accuser went all meta about it. This is not to deny that actual racists do exist somewhere out there, but the people who keep sprinkling the accusation all around at the slightest opportunity... if they're not lying, they're hallucinating. There actually aren't racists hiding behind every bush. Their delusion that there are is a "fact" that isn't a fact. So in this case, the "well this voter voted for a racist" claim is not a fact, but it is what the accuser thinks. In fact, even when it is a fact, it's still also what the accuser thinks. So describing it as what the accuser thinks is safely accurate either way, without any need to distinguish between them for that.

Now, since my original point about the ubiquitous dishonesty in all this stuff was about its contribution to the separation of the two sides' information sources...... and I'm sure you're imagining a case where you tell someone (s)he's a racist and get disputed and then accuse him/her of voting for a racist and prove it with an example of that politician actually doing something racist for a change...... the non-racist whom the hypothetical accuser in in this scenario had already previously accused of racism at the beginning almost certainly hadn't heard of that before, so what reason does (s)he have to believe the accuser when (s)he says that? Remember, the accuser already started this scenario by proving himself/herself to be not just a liar in general, but specifically a liar with accusations of racism at non-racists, before (s)he even got to the part where (s)he presented the proof of the third party being racist. That's beyond just crying wolf; that's telling the villagers (s)he's crying to that they were the wolves. Even if a real wolf actually finally does show up for once, everybody's way past the point where that would merely "not matter" anymore.
Why wasn't Trump a Racist for knowingly Lying about the First Black American President?
WITH Fellow Racist Jerome, and Joe Arapio?
He did know he was lying, so why wasn't that Racist?
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Old 8th October 2021, 09:00 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Addendum...

If sticking to general principles is getting too awkward, I shall supply a slightly less general type of example.

One of the favorite false accusations from the false-accusation-obsessed crowd is racism. When that accusation is countered, rephrasing it as "well you vote for racists" changes nothing. It's still really the same original accusation just with an added layer of pretense as if it weren't, and, even taking it as completely separate on its own terms, it's also usually equally baseless, referring to somebody who hasn't said or done anything actually racist, sometimes even while supplying "proof" of racism which actually isn't. That would be something that the accuser presumably considers a "fact". But it is actually not a fact, any more than the same accusation was the first time against first accusee before the accuser went all meta about it. This is not to deny that actual racists do exist somewhere out there, but the people who keep sprinkling the accusation all around at the slightest opportunity... if they're not lying, they're hallucinating. There actually aren't racists hiding behind every bush. Their delusion that there are is a "fact" that isn't a fact. So in this case, the "well this voter voted for a racist" claim is not a fact, but it is what the accuser thinks. In fact, even when it is a fact, it's still also what the accuser thinks. So describing it as what the accuser thinks is safely accurate either way, without any need to distinguish between them for that.

Now, since my original point about the ubiquitous dishonesty in all this stuff was about its contribution to the separation of the two sides' information sources...... and I'm sure you're imagining a case where you tell someone (s)he's a racist and get disputed and then accuse him/her of voting for a racist and prove it with an example of that politician actually doing something racist for a change...... the non-racist whom the hypothetical accuser in in this scenario had already previously accused of racism at the beginning almost certainly hadn't heard of that before, so what reason does (s)he have to believe the accuser when (s)he says that? Remember, the accuser already started this scenario by proving himself/herself to be not just a liar in general, but specifically a liar with accusations of racism at non-racists, before (s)he even got to the part where (s)he presented the proof of the third party being racist. That's beyond just crying wolf; that's telling the villagers (s)he's crying to that they were the wolves. Even if a real wolf actually finally does show up for once, everybody's way past the point where that would merely "not matter" anymore.
You've made up a fake scenario about how other people are dramatic, and that makes the people arguing that the facts of a group's political actions is more informative of their politics than their claims...dishonest?

Nope. You won't name the specific aspect I'm 'denying' because you don't have one. Your entire point here is 'well I think you're lying so that's evidence you're dishonest'.

The facts of people's political actions informs us of their politics. The facts of those politics remain the key factor of their politics regardless of if you don't like the facts. It isn't 'claiming it is a fact'. The Republican actions are what they are, and they explicitly deny what the science on a host of topics tell us. You can't get around that reasoning by making up a story of how 'dishonest' it is to talk about people's politics when the subject is their politics.
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Old 8th October 2021, 09:36 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Of course you won't even say what the 'aspects' of the conversation I'm denying
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
You won't name the specific aspect I'm 'denying'
...right after, and in direct response to, my quoting two specific examples word for word in their own quote boxes.

Are you even able to stop if you were to want to? Is it like Tourette Syndrome?

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The facts of people's political actions informs us of their politics.
Not when those "facts" are only "facts" in your head.

And, as you appear to prefer to ignore, even on those occasions when the usually-false accusations are true: why should the targets of all the previous false accusations listen to those claims coming from such consistent false-accusers? If you want to be taken seriously on those occasions when you do have reality on your side, you owe it to yourselves not to establish yourselves as perpetual perennial liars, especially on exactly the subjects you wish to be taken seriously on. It's like your goal is to make sure the other side will never listen.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The Republican{s}... explicitly deny what the science on a host of topics tell us.
Yes. But that doesn't mean their supporters deny science. That's one possibility. Another is that they're misinformed about the science itself and their political actions are correctly aligned with science as they (mis)understand it.

Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Why wasn't Trump a Racist for knowingly Lying about the First Black American President?
Interesting choice to boil it all down to that single example for a phenomenon that's so casually routine, but OK, it's not a bad one...

The claim that "lying about the first black American President" must result from racism relies on a false premise. That premise would be that the only possible reason to lie about the first black American President is because he's black and the liar is racist. We all know perfectly well that that doesn't make an iota of sense, even those who tell the rest of us that we are supposed to accept a conclusion based on it anyway. All of the same reasons why somebody, particularly a routine liar like Trump, would lie about anybody else still apply; they don't cease to be possibilities in just this one special case. Even for those who are actually racists (which certainly is more common among Republicans than among Democrats), this doesn't establish that. (And that's without even considering the fact that many of them probably never heard of that whole thing, which brings us back to: if they haven't, why should they believe it when it comes from a known false racism accuser?)

The premise's falsehood is so obvious that the idea that anybody believes it, instead of merely lying when they assert a conclusion that can't stand without it, is not very credible. But suppose for a moment that somebody really is that badly deluded, to seriously think that all other possible reasons for politicians to attack other politicians somehow vanish whenever you can find a racial angle... or, perhaps more realistically, to be so focused on race himself/herself as to have race drive out all other thoughts from his/her mind and be forgotten... In that case, while pushing this obviously false idea would not be a "lie" for such an unusual person, it would at least be projecting himself/herself onto other people. His/her "they voted for somebody whom this event proves to be racist" would be at best a badly malformed "they voted for somebody whom I consider this event to prove to be racist". His/her delusion is not a fact, whether (s)he calls it one or not. The description of the accusee as "voting for racists" on that basis is simply not an accurate description. No amount of shrieks of protest from the Defenders Of Dishonesty who can't tolerate having The Enemy treated as actual humans instead of demons will change that.

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Old 8th October 2021, 11:49 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Interesting that much of the warm reception Lincoln Project receives on social media is from Democrats or "Where Did the Middle Go?" Independents. I'm pessimistic about what they've actually accomplished. I have yet to see the big conservative cable news outlets give them any credit. Trump rules them.
While I enjoyed their attack ads, I didn't really trust the Lincoln Project and saw them as the 'enemy of my enemy', and it turns out I was right since they were found to be just as greedy and corrupt as the Republicans they criticize.

Inside the Lincoln Project’s Secrets, Side Deals and Scandals
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Old 9th October 2021, 02:50 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Interesting choice to boil it all down to that single example for a phenomenon that's so casually routine, but OK, it's not a bad one...

The claim that "lying about the first black American President" must result from racism relies on a false premise. That premise would be that the only possible reason to lie about the first black American President is because he's black and the liar is racist. We all know perfectly well that that doesn't make an iota of sense, even those who tell the rest of us that we are supposed to accept a conclusion based on it anyway. All of the same reasons why somebody, particularly a routine liar like Trump, would lie about anybody else still apply; they don't cease to be possibilities in just this one special case. Even for those who are actually racists (which certainly is more common among Republicans than among Democrats), this doesn't establish that. (And that's without even considering the fact that many of them probably never heard of that whole thing, which brings us back to: if they haven't, why should they believe it when it comes from a known false racism accuser?)

The premise's falsehood is so obvious that the idea that anybody believes it, instead of merely lying when they assert a conclusion that can't stand without it, is not very credible. But suppose for a moment that somebody really is that badly deluded, to seriously think that all other possible reasons for politicians to attack other politicians somehow vanish whenever you can find a racial angle... or, perhaps more realistically, to be so focused on race himself/herself as to have race drive out all other thoughts from his/her mind and be forgotten... In that case, while pushing this obviously false idea would not be a "lie" for such an unusual person, it would at least be projecting himself/herself onto other people. His/her "they voted for somebody whom this event proves to be racist" would be at best a badly malformed "they voted for somebody whom I consider this event to prove to be racist". His/her delusion is not a fact, whether (s)he calls it one or not. The description of the accusee as "voting for racists" on that basis is simply not an accurate description. No amount of shrieks of protest from the Defenders Of Dishonesty who can't tolerate having The Enemy treated as actual humans instead of demons will change that.
Constitutionalists Racism is well documented over several decades, and Trumpsters advisors at World Net Daily were well known Racists, Promoting White Replacement Theories for Decades, or did you forget that?
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Old 9th October 2021, 05:02 AM   #240
Crazy Chainsaw
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The Racism of the Lying Constitutionalists is well Documented over multiple Decades or did you forget that?
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-h.../worldnetdaily
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