IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 9th October 2021, 05:51 AM   #241
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 4,673
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
And this post is a good example of how disingenuous the right is.

You say you believe in climate change and that it's manmade, that you want healthcare reform, and a strong social safety net right? So what were you doing voting Republican before Trump came around?

Republicans never supported ANY of these things and have no intention of doing anything about them. They didn't suddenly change with Trump, he just opened the door for them to stop pretending they care about anybody but themselves.

So my only conclusions are that you either don't actually support the issues you've stated, or you do, and just don't care enough about them for them to be important to you.
If you'd read some of this thread before posting this, it might have been better.
The original claim I was told was that 'Republicans don't believe in the laws of physics'.
When I queried that, I was given climate change as a specific example.
I checked.
Firstly, it is true that science denial is more prevalent among Republicans: only 45% have a strong faith in science. I addressed that here:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Is that evidence enough to contradict this?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackbre...h=2050bfd616da

Republicans tend to have less faith in science than Democrats- less than 45%, in fact, have a lot of faith in it. That much is true. However, only 67% of Democrats exhibit strong levels of faith in science, and this is against a backdrop of a general decline in belief in science among Americans as a whole.
That's some way from saying Republicans as a whole 'do not believe in the laws of physics'- and I refer you again to my comment about political grandstanding. I am not interested in propaganda.
This post was largely ignored, presumably because it was inconvenient and didn't fit the rather simplistic and exaggerated narrative that has been so
prevalent in this thread.

I then dug deeper into the specific issue of climate change denial among Republicans. I addressed that here:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
And again, what I am being told in this thread is contrary to the evidence i have been able to find.
The claim that Republicans are one homogenous clump of science-denying imbeciles is not true. There are, in fact, differences within that group, and these differences are largely age-related. Younger Republicans are more likely to accept the reality of climate change.
https://www.dw.com/en/are-us-republi...sis/a-59215389
Once again, this was largely ignored.
This last link gives the lie to the 'Republicans don't believe in climate change' claim in two ways.
Firstly, to again state my point, it is not true to say that none of them do. The claim was not 'most' or 'a majority': it was just 'Republicans'. This kind of inaccurate hyperbole is one example of the kind of rhetoric that is poisoning political debate.
Secondly, the age difference is important. This shows that, for a start, Republicans are capable of changing and of moving with the times and following evidence. Also, this means that the Party as a whole will change, as those younger members become more of a majority.
Despite this evidence, we are still seeing inaccurate stereotypes like Boudicca90's- and that doesn't help either.
I mentioned confirmation bias before, and I'll say it again now. If you gloss over contradictory evidence and continue to maintain views based more on emotion than on fact, then you're doing the same thing you're criticising the other side for. Plus, saying 'these people are bad because they believe X' is then not a fair criticism. It's just an excuse for partisan hatred.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2021, 06:13 AM   #242
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,816
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
If you'd read some of this thread before posting this, it might have been better.
The original claim I was told was that 'Republicans don't believe in the laws of physics'.
When I queried that, I was given climate change as a specific example.
I checked.
Firstly, it is true that science denial is more prevalent among Republicans: only 45% have a strong faith in science. I addressed that here:



This post was largely ignored, presumably because it was inconvenient and didn't fit the rather simplistic and exaggerated narrative that has been so
prevalent in this thread.

I then dug deeper into the specific issue of climate change denial among Republicans. I addressed that here:



Once again, this was largely ignored.
This last link gives the lie to the 'Republicans don't believe in climate change' claim in two ways.
Firstly, to again state my point, it is not true to say that none of them do. The claim was not 'most' or 'a majority': it was just 'Republicans'. This kind of inaccurate hyperbole is one example of the kind of rhetoric that is poisoning political debate.
Secondly, the age difference is important. This shows that, for a start, Republicans are capable of changing and of moving with the times and following evidence. Also, this means that the Party as a whole will change, as those younger members become more of a majority.
Despite this evidence, we are still seeing inaccurate stereotypes like Boudicca90's- and that doesn't help either.
I mentioned confirmation bias before, and I'll say it again now. If you gloss over contradictory evidence and continue to maintain views based more on emotion than on fact, then you're doing the same thing you're criticising the other side for. Plus, saying 'these people are bad because they believe X' is then not a fair criticism. It's just an excuse for partisan hatred.
What you fail to see is the Crazy Constitutionalist,are now in control of the Majority of the base. I don't rely on polls I talk to real Republicans daily many Young Republicans are Climate change deniers because they are Employed by the Fossil Fuels Industry.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2021, 07:19 AM   #243
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 4,673
Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
What you fail to see is the Crazy Constitutionalist,are now in control of the Majority of the base. I don't rely on polls I talk to real Republicans daily many Young Republicans are Climate change deniers because they are Employed by the Fossil Fuels Industry.
Your anecdotes trump my data?
No, mate. I don't think so.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2021, 07:37 AM   #244
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 4,673
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
You didn't come here to learn anything, but to support your existing bias that 'they can't be that bad, can they'?
No, that's completely untrue.
I started this thread to find out how things got that bad.
Now I've been at the receiving end of so much Democrat bile, I'm beginning to understand why. It's hard not to react with anger when faced with so much anger- and I'm not a Republican. I'm not even an American.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2021, 08:36 AM   #245
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 15,645
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
No, it isn't.
Firstly, because I keep getting told that there isn't a range of beliefs, and, secondly, because I'm also getting told that, even if there is a range of beliefs, it doesn't make any difference.
True for all practical purposes. Whatever the range of beliefs may or may not be, the party power structure has been subsumed by Trumpism. The defining characteristics of Trumpism are (1) opposition to democracy and (2) alternate reality.

Quote:
I am struggling to understand this concept. Perhaps someone can explain it without shouting at me, insulting my intelligence or generally trolling me. (I have been holding off on that term for a while now, but I'm calling it out for what it is now: getting properly sick of being attacked by people who don't listen to me, don't want to listen to me, assume I'm dishonest and insincere, and who are trying to mask their hatred and intolerance behind a façade of 'we're the good guys' ********).
I haven't done those things. To whatever extent others have, it might be due to your resistance to acknowledge certain obvious things about the Trump cult that still drives the GOP.

Quote:
What I think is being said here is this:
A small minority of current Republicans might be reasonable and sane, but the majority are not.
It's demonstrably true that a vast majority of the GOP power structure has succumbed to Trumpism. For instance, Liz Cheney became a pariah simply for acknowledging that the election was legit. This was voted on. I'm not just reading tea leaves.

Quote:
OTOH, others have said that, actually, quite a lot of them are actually quite reasonable, the apparent extremism is magnified by media or whatever, and also that the party grandees, who have now bought into Trumpist extremism, don't represent these voters, never did represent them, but these voters vote for them anyway because they can't stomach voting Democrat.
I'm not going to debate the thought process of tens of millions of people beyong what's tangible, such as opinion polls and election results.

Quote:
There is no valid data to support either of these propositions, so reality is decided by who shouts the loudest.
BS of a high order. You've been provided a number of tangible facts.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2021, 08:48 AM   #246
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,740
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
...right after, and in direct response to, my quoting two specific examples word for word in their own quote boxes.
Those weren't specific examples. You made up a story on how false accusations of racism justify lying to frail egos so those who are intellectually weak will believe facts. It's nonsense.

Quote:
Are you even able to stop if you were to want to? Is it like Tourette Syndrome?
I'm not going to lie to make you feel better, by choice.

Quote:
Not when those "facts" are only "facts" in your head.
They're facts. You however are projecting because you're demanding I make things up to have people believe me.

Quote:
And, as you appear to prefer to ignore, even on those occasions when the usually-false accusations are true: why should the targets of all the previous false accusations listen to those claims coming from such consistent false-accusers? If you want to be taken seriously on those occasions when you do have reality on your side, you owe it to yourselves not to establish yourselves as perpetual perennial liars, especially on exactly the subjects you wish to be taken seriously on. It's like your goal is to make sure the other side will never listen.
Coddling them didn't work and I'm not going to outright lie and say they're being reasonable when they are not just so they believe me. This is also a standard you, very dishonestly, don't apply to yourself nor to them. They get to lie about the left and literally murder people but the left has to have unending patience and understanding for them. ********. You've been an apologist for them for too long, so by your standard I shouldn't believe you even if you were right (which again, you are factually not).

'Stop telling the truth about them and then you'll earn them listening to you.' Well reasoned. And as I said above, you're saying that because I'm a 'liar' that is evidence I'm lying.

Apply this reasoning to yourself. Or don't. It doesn't matter because I'm not about to start lying for you.

Quote:
Yes. But that doesn't mean their supporters deny science. That's one possibility. Another is that they're misinformed about the science itself and their political actions are correctly aligned with science as they (mis)understand it.
Another aspect you claim I ignore that I explicitly listed above. Accidentally denying science doesn't make it not denying science, especially if they refuse to learn and keep denying science for non-evidence reasons. You know, like how mean they think the left is for not letting them get away with racism unchallenged anymore.

So how about you try apply your demands to yourself. You want people to believe you? Stop calling them dishonest for telling the truth. You won't. You're not arguing in good faith.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
No, that's completely untrue.
I started this thread to find out how things got that bad.
Now I've been at the receiving end of so much Democrat bile, I'm beginning to understand why. It's hard not to react with anger when faced with so much anger- and I'm not a Republican. I'm not even an American.
Another for 'you need to let me be wrong for me to believe you!'. You are looking at the effect of decades of right wing terrorism being treated with kidd gloves, with the right calling us commies, and baby murderers, and bombing us and our federal buildings and murdering and arresting black men for no good reason, and after all that saying we should be more understanding of them.

**** that. I stopped lying for their feelings five years ago. Democrats giving you bile doesn't change the truth.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2021, 10:26 AM   #247
W.D.Clinger
Illuminator
 
W.D.Clinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,001
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
No, it isn't.
Firstly, because I keep getting told that there isn't a range of beliefs, and, secondly, because I'm also getting told that, even if there is a range of beliefs, it doesn't make any difference.
True for all practical purposes. Whatever the range of beliefs may or may not be, the party power structure has been subsumed by Trumpism. The defining characteristics of Trumpism are (1) opposition to democracy and (2) alternate reality.

Quote:
I am struggling to understand this concept. Perhaps someone can explain it without shouting at me, insulting my intelligence or generally trolling me. (I have been holding off on that term for a while now, but I'm calling it out for what it is now: getting properly sick of being attacked by people who don't listen to me, don't want to listen to me, assume I'm dishonest and insincere, and who are trying to mask their hatred and intolerance behind a façade of 'we're the good guys' ********).
I haven't done those things. To whatever extent others have, it might be due to your resistance to acknowledge certain obvious things about the Trump cult that still drives the GOP.

As Cosmic Yak continues to complain about people who don't listen to Cosmic Yak, don't want to listen to Cosmic Yak, assume Cosmic Yak is dishonest and insincere, and mask their hatred and intolerance behind a façade of "we're the good guys", all because they fail to acknowledge a range of beliefs, it looks more and more as though Cosmic Yak is not only failing to acknowledge the range of beliefs and opinions among those who have responded to Cosmic Yak, but isn't listening to many of those beliefs and opinions, doesn't want to listen to them, and may even be assuming the people who express those opinions, especially when they suggest Cosmic Yak is failing to recognize their diversity of responses, are being dishonest and/or insincere—perhaps even intolerant.
W.D.Clinger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2021, 11:40 AM   #248
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 35,556
Oh have we the "Okay but the Left and Right are the same if you let me make up hypothetical examples that don't happen for the Left?" stage of the discussion already? Usually, that's not until page 15 at least.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2021, 12:20 PM   #249
Boudicca90
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 728
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
If you'd read some of this thread before posting this, it might have been better.
The original claim I was told was that 'Republicans don't believe in the laws of physics'.
When I queried that, I was given climate change as a specific example.
I checked.
Firstly, it is true that science denial is more prevalent among Republicans: only 45% have a strong faith in science. I addressed that here:



This post was largely ignored, presumably because it was inconvenient and didn't fit the rather simplistic and exaggerated narrative that has been so
prevalent in this thread.

I then dug deeper into the specific issue of climate change denial among Republicans. I addressed that here:



Once again, this was largely ignored.
This last link gives the lie to the 'Republicans don't believe in climate change' claim in two ways.
Firstly, to again state my point, it is not true to say that none of them do. The claim was not 'most' or 'a majority': it was just 'Republicans'. This kind of inaccurate hyperbole is one example of the kind of rhetoric that is poisoning political debate.
Secondly, the age difference is important. This shows that, for a start, Republicans are capable of changing and of moving with the times and following evidence. Also, this means that the Party as a whole will change, as those younger members become more of a majority.
Despite this evidence, we are still seeing inaccurate stereotypes like Boudicca90's- and that doesn't help either.
I mentioned confirmation bias before, and I'll say it again now. If you gloss over contradictory evidence and continue to maintain views based more on emotion than on fact, then you're doing the same thing you're criticising the other side for. Plus, saying 'these people are bad because they believe X' is then not a fair criticism. It's just an excuse for partisan hatred.
Just because a few Republicans can open their eyes and look around at what's happening to our planet and come to the rightful conclusion that we are at fault, doesn't mean they still want to do anything about it. They tend to be just fine watching the world burn in general, and the party itself is steadfast against ANY significant action to fight climate change.

Your first link, despite your manipulation of the data, still proves you wrong.
Quote:
Democrats are 34 points more likely than Republicans to have confidence in science, a wide partisan split that did not exist in 1975, when GOP voters (72%) were just 5 points more likely than Democrats (67%) to have confidence in science.
There is a wide gap between trust in science between the parties that just wasn't there in the 70's, but since then while Democratic confidence has risen 12 percent, Republican and Independent confidence has dropped 27 points and 8 points, respectively.

And your second link just confirms what I said:
Quote:
Among Republicans younger than 40, a majority is concerned about the changing climate, opinion polls show. By contrast, 65% of Republican baby boomers have said climate change was not an important concern to them.
Young Republicans won't get anything done with older Republicans in their way, and even when they do propose solutions, none of it is serious. Their 'market-based' solutions aren't enough at this stage. We need major government action, and they aren't willing to support that, no matter how they feel about the environment.

Pro tip: You should probably read your own sources more carefully in the future.

Last edited by Boudicca90; 9th October 2021 at 12:22 PM.
Boudicca90 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2021, 12:37 PM   #250
Venom
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 5,241
Cosmic Yak, this is an example of where Trump-fearing Republicans are taking the country.

Quote:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Republican lawmakers in election battleground states have passed a wave of new voting requirements and limits this year, saying the measures are needed to curb voter fraud despite scant evidence of it in the United States.

Backers of the measures cite former President Donald Trump’s baseless claim that fraud underlay his decisive presidential election loss to Democrat Joe Biden in November.
Where are the moderate Republicans who are trying to keep these not-mainstream-at-all lunatics in line?
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2021, 12:45 PM   #251
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 35,556
Moderation does not exist in a first past the post, two-party system.

You either vote for the sane party or you don't. There is no middle ground at the level we are discussing.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2021, 12:47 PM   #252
sir drinks-a-lot
Illuminator
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 4,871
So many of you so-called skeptics are being played by the Democrats. Sure, I believe in man made climate change, but the hysterical claims about it are just tactics to rile people up against the evil, planet hating science denying Republicans. The “Snowfalls are a thing of the past” headlines were for you.

And to pretend the Biden Administration is going to tackle climate change is a particularly charming kind of gullible. He just had his symposium on electric cars with GM and Ford. You know, those two monsters of the electric vehicle industry. Noticeably uninvited was the planets largest actual seller of electric vehicles, run by the guy who has the best chance of actually making electric vehicles feasible. During the whole summit, neither Elon Musk nor Tesla were even mentioned once. The Biden Administration is more interested in keeping the unions happy and voters riled up about “climate denial” than in actually engaging the topic.
__________________
I don't like that man. I must get to know him better. --Abraham Lincoln
sir drinks-a-lot is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2021, 01:01 PM   #253
Boudicca90
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 728
I'm fine with Tesla and Musk getting squeezed out of that deal. I've worked with former Tesla Gigafactory workers in warehouses and the horror stories they have are much like what I heard from the former Amazon workers.

They badly need to be unionized, and Biden put his foot down and said no support until they do. Plus, as a non-Tesla EV owner, I'm personally glad this jerk is getting what he deserves and Biden won't let him monopolize the market any more than he currently does.
Boudicca90 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2021, 01:11 PM   #254
Venom
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 5,241
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
So many of you so-called skeptics are being played by the Democrats. Sure, I believe in man made climate change, but the hysterical claims about it are just tactics to rile people up against the evil, planet hating science denying Republicans. The “Snowfalls are a thing of the past” headlines were for you.
Or...some of the hysterical claims were just overstating the very real problems that are to come, as laypeople often do. And what have Republicans offered any time in the last two decades to combat climate change? If a large number of them weren't anti-science I think something substantial would have been put forward by now.

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
And to pretend the Biden Administration is going to tackle climate change is a particularly charming kind of gullible.
Most skeptics are under no illusions about the Biden admin's capabilities or interest on climate change. But it's better than going backwards under the anti-democratic assclown before him.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2021, 01:35 PM   #255
Boudicca90
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 728
Exactly. I was a Bernie supporter (surprise, I know) during the primaries and had no illusion that Biden was going to do anything significant to combat climate change. He was still a far better choice than Trump and the Republicans who would repeatedly deny man-made climate change is even a thing, and actively lowered or eliminated regulations meant to stop polluters.

Since then however, he has taken a much stronger stance than I had expected, and I think a big part of that has been the influence Bernie and the other progressives have been having on the party.
Boudicca90 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2021, 02:18 PM   #256
Venom
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 5,241
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Since then however, he has taken a much stronger stance than I had expected, and I think a big part of that has been the influence Bernie and the other progressives have been having on the party.
Absolutely. But be careful: progressives successfully nudging Biden a peg left on 3 of 20 issues may be taken as a sign that *checks notes* the FAR LEFT has taken over!
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2021, 03:59 PM   #257
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,816
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Your anecdotes trump my data?
No, mate. I don't think so.
I see your data and Raise you one Crazy!
https://www.weareiowa.com/article/ne...1-91010f4ead09
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2021, 06:13 PM   #258
Boudicca90
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 728
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Absolutely. But be careful: progressives successfully nudging Biden a peg left on 3 of 20 issues may be taken as a sign that *checks notes* the FAR LEFT has taken over!
Meh. According to them, the party has been FAR LEFT since Obama!

Conservatives throw 'leftist' and 'socialist' around so much without ever figuring out what they mean in the first place. Socialism is just anything they don't like.
Boudicca90 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2021, 06:53 PM   #259
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,234
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Meh. According to them, the party has been FAR LEFT since Obama!

Conservatives throw 'leftist' and 'socialist' around so much without ever figuring out what they mean in the first place. Socialism is just anything they don't like.
Manchin's support for a 1.5 trillion plan with deficit reduction is to the left of Obama in 2010.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2021, 06:56 PM   #260
Boudicca90
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 728
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Manchin's support for a 1.5 trillion plan with deficit reduction is to the left of Obama in 2010.
What Manchin supports NOW has no relevance to anything Obama did 11 years ago.

Stay focused here.
Boudicca90 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2021, 06:58 PM   #261
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,234
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
What Manchin supports NOW has no relevance to anything Obama did 11 years ago.

Stay focused here.
The most conservative democrat in the Senate is to the left of Obama. That is an appropriate response to your comment about the being left of Obama.


You literally commented about what Democrats support now compared to Obama then.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2021, 07:56 PM   #262
Boudicca90
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 728
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The most conservative democrat in the Senate is to the left of Obama. That is an appropriate response to your comment about the being left of Obama.


You literally commented about what Democrats support now compared to Obama then.
You can go derail a conversation somewhere else. I'm familiar enough with your posts to know not to play your games.
Boudicca90 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2021, 11:34 PM   #263
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 16,088
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The most conservative democrat in the Senate is to the left of Obama. That is an appropriate response to your comment about the being left of Obama.


You literally commented about what Democrats support now compared to Obama then.
Incorrect.
__________________
“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”
-Anne Lamott
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2021, 07:30 AM   #264
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 15,645
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
So many of you so-called skeptics are being played by the Democrats. Sure, I believe in man made climate change...
The number of elected GOP officials who are similarly on record is ... miniscule to the point of pathetic.

Quote:
but the hysterical claims about it are just tactics to rile people up against the evil, planet hating science denying Republicans. The “Snowfalls are a thing of the past” headlines were for you.
I have no doubt that hysterical claims exist. I also have no doubt that the problem has been understated.

(To discuss this meaningfully, I'd want to see examples. Better left for a different thread.)

It wasn't very long ago that a President of the United States called it a hoax, and took actions in accordance.

Quote:
And to pretend the Biden Administration is going to tackle climate change is a particularly charming kind of gullible.
And yet it's a vast improvement compared to the Conspiracy Theorist in Chief.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2021, 07:37 AM   #265
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 35,556
"But real skeptics..." card played, everyone take a shot.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2021, 11:27 AM   #266
Pacal
Graduate Poster
 
Pacal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,274
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
No, that's completely untrue.
I started this thread to find out how things got that bad.
Now I've been at the receiving end of so much Democrat bile, I'm beginning to understand why. It's hard not to react with anger when faced with so much anger- and I'm not a Republican. I'm not even an American.
Once again it is the fee fees of Republicans that count. How one sided. do we have to go over and over again the bile and hatred directed at Democrats by Republicans that even now exceeds the bile etc., of Democrats against Republicans. The central attitude of so many Republicans has been to knee, hurl idiotic, accusations etc., against Democrats for c. 30 years+. The idiocy of the election fraud nonsense is only the latest in a long sordid history of accusing Democrats of crap. The bile / hatred so many Republicans have hurled against Democrats even now vastly exceeds the reverse. So Republican whining about how could Democrats hurt our fee fees so is a bit much.

The Republican response, by which I mean many Republicans, has been "How dare you get angry at me for accusing you of all sorts of hatful, sordid things. The fact I consider you the equivalent of Satan worshippers is nothing for you to get upset about." Civility is a two way street.

How many times do Democrats have to try the bipartisan route, get kneed in the groin for it by Republicans for it before they are "permitted" to be pissed off about the whole thing.

The frothing at the mouth, rabid hysteria of so many Republicans against Democrats is the actual problem not Democratic "anger".

The fact that many Republicans are "reasonable" doesn't seem to stop so many of them from voting for loons and idiots against their best interests that is an interesting sociological riddle, probably having a lot to do with politics has tribalism, fear and the desire to punish others.

I find this fascinating in that my basic perception of American politics is that America has one political party, - the Business Party divided into two factions, i.e., Democrats and Republicans. One is more in the pocket of the business elites than the other, i.e., the Republicans. The other sometimes gives something, usually not much, to everyone else, i.e., the Democrats. However one faction has been very successful in demonizing one faction, i.e., what the Republicans have done to the Democrats. The result being many people will vote against their best interests in order to "Own the Libs", because Democrats are somehow "satanic" etc.

Also the strategists in the Republican party have been very good at portraying themselves has "victims" of "evil" "uncivil" etc., Democrats. At the same time many Republicans are engaged in brazen open campaign to cement their domination via gerrymandering and voter suppression etc., obviously anti-democratic. Yet they portray themselves over and over again has the poor victims.

If Democrats are full of bile and angry no surprise after 30+ years of hysteria etc., from so many Republicans. But of course many Republicans will take no responsibility in any amount for this. Even now the level of bile directed at Democrats from so many Republicans massively exceeds anything from Democrats against Republicans.

But somehow Republicans are the true "victims".

Whatever.
Pacal is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2021, 11:29 AM   #267
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 35,556
"I'm sorry why can't you have just taken our attempted coup of your country with gentle good naturedness? Why you got to be so mean about it?"

- Brought to you in 2021 by "**** your Feelings Snowflake, LOL I'm living in your head rent-free, whatsma lib you triggered? I'm I triggering you? Need a safe space? 20016-2020"
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 10th October 2021 at 11:31 AM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2021, 12:07 PM   #268
dirtywick
Illuminator
 
dirtywick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,009
so much for the tolerant left
dirtywick is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2021, 02:15 PM   #269
Venom
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 5,241
Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
so much for the tolerant left
?
.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2021, 02:19 PM   #270
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,725
Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
Once again it is the fee fees of Republicans that count.
Once again we have another round of the same false accusation.

It's not just the obviousness of the falsehood that's so amazing. It's the repetitive persistence even after yall know you've been called on it and aren't fooling anybody, on top of the obviousness. Almost like you're claiming to have won an election you lost.

Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
do we have to go over and over again the bile and hatred directed at Democrats by Republicans that even now exceeds the bile etc., of Democrats against Republicans.
Go ahead. It already happens here plenty. (Mysteriously it's the only direction in which such comments never meet any resistance here.)

My only point about the obsessive-compulsive-looking false accusation stream was that it contributes to the separation of the two sides' information sources by one side voluntarily discrediting itself to the other. I never claimed that that phenomenon only goes one direction. Yall just wanted to let it stand in one direction and shriek at me for the crime of admitting that it exists at all in the other direction.

{Cue more shrieks of "he just said both sides are the same" for the 6228th time although of course I didn't and nobody had any of the previous 6227 times either}

Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
How many times do Democrats have to try the bipartisan route, get kneed in the groin for it by Republicans for it before they are "permitted" to be pissed off about the whole thing.
Striving for bipartisanship instead of fighting is one of my top complaints about Democrats such as Biden. And that's one of the reasons why I'd rather have Demoncrats also knock of the constant stream of false accusations; because it's counterproductive. There are ways to actually persuade people, or even just partially persuade them, and it doesn't involve starting off by flagrantly discrediting yourself to them with the world's very easiest-to-see-through class of lies that could possibly exist.

Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
The frothing at the mouth, rabid hysteria of so many Republicans against Democrats is the actual problem not Democratic "anger".
This sounds fairly close to agreement with me that such behavior is counterproductive.

Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
many people will vote against their best interests in order to "Own the Libs", because Democrats are somehow "satanic" etc.
The "Satanic" angle is real but rare. For most it's really about "Communism". They see the failure of the USSR and its satellite nations, and the poverty of others that haven't fallen yet, as a demonstration that more government intervention fails so less is the key to success. For people who look at it that way, the key to convincing them is to get them to recognize that there are also successes in large government interventions and failures from a lack of it... not to shriek at them about how their position on that issue proves they're homophobes or puppy-kickers or whatever. My first attempt at "homophobes" came out as "homophones" and I don't even have Auto-Correct.

Last edited by Delvo; 10th October 2021 at 02:22 PM.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2021, 02:26 PM   #271
dirtywick
Illuminator
 
dirtywick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,009
Being critical of a coup attempt is just another example is just another example of the lefts intolerance of conservative beliefs. They have a god given right to the presidency and no amount of votes or constitutional process is going to change that. The election was stolen because I believe it was stolen and that’s all I need to know, and those baby eating coastal elites turning us into socialists are hypocrites for not accepting that for what it is. **** Joe Biden, he’s not my President

Intolerant left at its finest.
dirtywick is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2021, 02:56 PM   #272
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 35,556
Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Being critical of a coup attempt is just another example is just another example of the lefts intolerance of conservative beliefs. They have a god given right to the presidency and no amount of votes or constitutional process is going to change that. The election was stolen because I believe it was stolen and that’s all I need to know, and those baby eating coastal elites turning us into socialists are hypocrites for not accepting that for what it is. **** Joe Biden, he’s not my President

Intolerant left at its finest.
I love how I already know this will be dismissed as a strawman despite being exactly what is being said.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2021, 03:11 PM   #273
kevbo
Thinker
 
kevbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Rogue Valley, Oregon
Posts: 230
Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Being critical of a coup attempt is just another example is just another example of the lefts intolerance of conservative beliefs. They have a god given right to the presidency and no amount of votes or constitutional process is going to change that. The election was stolen because I believe it was stolen and that’s all I need to know, and those baby eating coastal elites turning us into socialists are hypocrites for not accepting that for what it is. **** Joe Biden, he’s not my President

Intolerant left at its finest.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I love how I already know this will be dismissed as a strawman despite being exactly what is being said.
Yes, because of reasons ...
kevbo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2021, 09:49 PM   #274
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 16,078
Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
... Yet they portray themselves over and over again has the poor victims.
Wonderful, pithy statement which fully explains US history, from prior to the nation's founding until today. Only the name of the demographic changes, switching back and forth from 'Democrat' to 'Republican' and back. There are not enough balls coast to coast to man up to history, which means every time factual history comes to the fore, a nationwide panic ensues, with handholding around a White supremacist campfire. Consider: A solid majority of White voters voted for Trump in 2020.

Take, for example:
Quote:
WaPo: Michael P. Farris, is a constitutional lawyer and president of ParentalRights.org, an organization that has been actively campaigning against U.S. ratification of “dangerous U.N conventions that “threaten parental rights” such as the Convention on the Rights of the Child. “The chief threat posed by the CRC is the denial of American self-government in accord with our constitutional processes,” said Farris in an email interview. “Our constitutional system gives the exclusive authority for the creation of law and policy on issues about families and children to state governments. Upon ratification, this nation would be making a binding promise in international law that we would obey the legal standards created by the U.N. CRC. American children and families are better served by constitutional democracy than international law.”
In short: (1) Inability to recognize the shared principles underlying much of international law (shaped largely by, ahem, the postwar US ), thus claiming, as today, that sovereignty is a higher value than any other principle (Red state mantra #1), and (2) inability and refusal to recognize own shortcomings in the light of any law not under sufficient White supremacist control (Red state mantra #2).

Which brings us to openly criminal behavior (outting and threatening individuals, Red state mantra #3, aka "Kill 'em all") now on record:
Quote:
Under President Donald Trump’s administration, the US government has said that it will not cooperate with the ICC and has threatened retaliatory steps against ICC staff and member countries should the court investigate US or allied country citizens. Then National Security Adviser John Bolton first announced this approach in September 2018. Two weeks later, President Trump addressed the UN General Assembly stating that the “United States will provide no support or recognition to the International Criminal Court. As far as America is concerned the ICC has no jurisdiction, no legitimacy, and no authority.”

On March 15, 2019, US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo announced that the US would impose visa bans on ICC officials involved in the court’s potential investigation of US citizens for alleged crimes in Afghanistan. He indicated the same policy may be used to deter ICC efforts to investigate nationals of allied countries, including Israelis, and stated that the US would be prepared to take further actions, including economic sanctions, “if the ICC does not change its course.” The Trump administration confirmed in early April 2019 that it had revoked ICC Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda’s visa.

Pompeo publicly threatened two staff members of the ICC on March 17, 2020, naming them and stating that he was “considering what the United States’ next steps ought to be with respect to these individuals and all those who are putting Americans at risk.” Pompeo said he wanted to identify people responsible for the investigation – and their family members – and implied he could seek actions against them.

On May 15, 2020, Pompeo vowed to “exact consequences” if the ICC “continues down its current course” – that is, if the court moves forward with a Palestine investigation.

Trump issued a sweeping executive order on June 11, 2020 authorizing asset freezes and family entry bans that could be imposed against certain ICC officials. The administration acted on September 2 to designate Fatou Bensouda, the ICC prosecutor, and Phakiso Mochochoko, the head of the Office of the Prosecutor’s Jurisdiction, Complementarity, and Cooperation Division, for sanctions. The executive order also provides for the same sanctions with regard to those who assist certain court investigations, risking a broad chilling effect on cooperation with the ICC.
True to form, and to the widespread applause of millions of rabid White men, this:
Quote:
A Navy Seal platoon leader controversially cleared of war crimes by Donald Trump was a “toxic” character who was “OK with killing anything that moved”, according to fellow Iraq veterans who reported his conduct to military investigators.

The explosive testimony was published Friday by the New York Times, which obtained previously unseen video interviews and text messages from several former members of an elite commando unit once led by special operations chief Eddie Gallagher. Gallagher was convicted in July of posing with the dead body of a teenage Islamic State captive he had just killed with a hunting knife. He was granted clemency by the president in November in a decision that angered military chiefs. In the interviews, conducted by navy investigators looking into Gallagher’s conduct during a tour of duty in Iraq in 2017, fellow platoon members told of a ruthless leader who stabbed the captive to death for no reason then forced his troops to pose for a photograph with the corpse (Red state ingrained habit since forever).
How is it a nation with such lofty principles on paper is such a thug? Hark back to the rabid religious extremists who left Europe so they could do their worst where no one was going to stop them, ingrain that as "culture", and you have yourself good ole boys whose moral eyes have been scooped out by their culture.
__________________
His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2021, 08:19 PM   #275
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 60,926
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
How is it a nation with such lofty principles on paper is such a thug? Hark back to the rabid religious extremists who left Europe so they could do their worst where no one was going to stop them, ingrain that as "culture", and you have yourself good ole boys whose moral eyes have been scooped out by their culture.
Because the nation has the lofty principles, on paper. That makes it official and counters anything people actually do. What people believe about character will always outweigh actual facts about behavior. Image matters, reality doesn't.

None of which is new, or unique to any particular nation. It's just more upsetting in the modern era because by now humanity certainly ought to know better, but definitely doesn't.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 04:44 AM   #276
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 29,394
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
And to pretend the Biden Administration is going to tackle climate change is a particularly charming kind of gullible. He just had his symposium on electric cars with GM and Ford. You know, those two monsters of the electric vehicle industry. Noticeably uninvited was the planets largest actual seller of electric vehicles, run by the guy who has the best chance of actually making electric vehicles feasible.


Except that Tesla sold about 500,000 cars of all models last year, while sales of the F-150 alone were almost 790,000, and that was a significant decrease in sales over the previous year, because of that whole "It's 2020" business.

If you want electric vehicles to really take off, getting the manufacturers who are already capable of building millions of vehicles a year on board is your best bet.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:25 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.