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Old 4th October 2021, 06:24 AM   #1
Hercules56
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What are the Democrats going to do?

The Progressive want a big fat major package.

The two Senate "Moderates" want a smaller economic/social deal.

If they can't come to some compromise, they will make the Dems look VERY weak, fractured and broken. They will lose the House.

So, the choice is to come up with a compromise and show America they can get past their difference and get some **** done, being the Infrastructure package and some kind of economic/social package, or fail completely and look useless.

Will the Progressives be able to see past their agenda to get this done? Or are they too blind to accept the truth? I fear they prefer their hard line, even if it means losing control.

What will Progressives say, "give us the whole House next time, and we will get **** done!"??? Really? I hope they are not this dumb.
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Old 4th October 2021, 06:25 AM   #2
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Nothing politically efficient.
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Old 4th October 2021, 06:30 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Nothing politically efficient.
Well, they got **** done with Obamacare, maybe they will surprise us.

I'm really praying the Progs can really see the endgame here, and realize the Infrastructure package and some socio-economic plan is much better than total failure. Control of 2 branches doesn't happen that often, we can't wait another 10 years.
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Old 4th October 2021, 06:43 AM   #4
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We're almost certainly going to lose the house either way.

The progressives are the largest ideological caucus in the Democratic House, so maybe it is time to retire this notion they are the intransigent troublemakers.

They've compromised all the way from 6t to 3.5t on the reconciliation package already.

Past experience reinforces that if they comply with voting for the infrastructure bill as a standalone item, the reconciliation package will go poof. If they get played in such an obvious manner, they may find it very hard to get reelected anyways.

Why is it responsibility for the failure is the fault of the major coalition bloc trying to enact the party and president's goals rather than the handful of members who are quite clearly getting corporate money stuffed in their pockets to thwart it?

We can't balk at Republican corruption and their two-faced version of calls for "compromise" and then turn around and behave exactly the same way within our own party and against our own policy platform.
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Old 4th October 2021, 06:44 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Well, they got **** done with Obamacare, maybe they will surprise us.



I'm really praying the Progs can really see the endgame here, and realize the Infrastructure package and some socio-economic plan is much better than total failure. Control of 2 branches doesn't happen that often, we can't wait another 10 years.
I'm really praying the corporate backed shills can really see the endgame here...

Hey, fair is fair.
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Old 4th October 2021, 07:05 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
The two Senate "Moderates" want a smaller economic/social deal.
I read just now that Manchin wants 1.5tn dollars.

What does Sinema want?
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Old 4th October 2021, 07:07 AM   #7
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Listen before this descents into the already dead horse donnybrook the problem isn't how many Progressives or Centrists or Moderates make up the Democratic Congress.

It's how well they work together. "Well there's more of us so we should get our way" is the absolute worst way to look at it.

Parties can't function if they are internally democratic in this way.
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Old 4th October 2021, 08:28 AM   #8
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The Democrats are going to do what they always do when they get into power.

They will squabble and fight with each other until they reach the point where they realize that it is far more important to unify behind the resolution of an issue when none of them are particularly happy about the resolution in question as opposed to having to deal with the Republicans rightly calling the Democrats "The Do Nothing Democrat Party".
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Old 4th October 2021, 08:43 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
What does Sinema want?
No one knows. Literally. She won't say.
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Old 4th October 2021, 08:50 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
No one knows. Literally. She won't say.
She's a contrarian. She's totally defined by NOT doing what everyone else does. There's no there there, just a hollow shell that reacts to what other people do.
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Old 4th October 2021, 08:51 AM   #11
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Luckily the Dems will control the House and Senate through the end of next year. They have a lot of time to get this **** done.
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Old 4th October 2021, 09:01 AM   #12
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Old 4th October 2021, 09:05 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
She's a contrarian. She's totally defined by NOT doing what everyone else does. There's no there there, just a hollow shell that reacts to what other people do.
The "thumbs down" thing is still hard for me to get my head around.

I at least have a read on Manchin. I know his deal and really don't expect any better. He'll almost certainly fold on this at some point once he can come up with a way to spin it to himself. He's just too addicted to both sideism which when dealing with the GOP is a touch of lunacy.
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Old 4th October 2021, 09:13 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Luckily the Dems will control the House and Senate through the end of next year. They have a lot of time to get this **** done.
We are now to the point where the best case scenario for two years seems like a almost adequate infrastructure and spending bill.

Anything progressive in any of this will probably fall attack to lawsuits from conservative dark money lawsuit factories which will be heard by a judiciary just infested with fed soc operatives. Fun!!

If they don't do something about the judiciary and voting rights all of this is shuffling deck chairs.
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Old 4th October 2021, 09:31 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
No one knows. Literally. She won't say.
Not that I think chasing her into a bathroom plays well, I do appreciate the implications that she would rather take a **** than respond to her constituents.
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Old 4th October 2021, 09:33 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
She's a contrarian. She's totally defined by NOT doing what everyone else does. There's no there there, just a hollow shell that reacts to what other people do.
Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
The "thumbs down" thing is still hard for me to get my head around.
If you don't mind a baldly cynical CT take: she's a Republican plant. A Green party outsider and then a Democrat running on a progressive ticket should've only been a spoiler in Arizona splitting the blue vote... but she won. So now her role is only to make sure nothing of any consequence gets done and Democrats are blamed for it.
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Old 4th October 2021, 09:37 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
If you don't mind a baldly cynical CT take: she's a Republican plant. A Green party outsider and then a Democrat running on a progressive ticket should've only been a spoiler in Arizona splitting the blue vote... but she won. So now her role is only to make sure nothing of any consequence gets done and Democrats are blamed for it.
I don't think it's that exactly.

I think that nobody wants to address the "There's a Practical-Idealist Y axis in politics and if you bury your need too far on the idealist side of it your politics stop mattering" elephant in the room.

After a certain point all opinions become the same if you're not in the real world when you are having them.
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Old 4th October 2021, 09:44 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
She's a contrarian. She's totally defined by NOT doing what everyone else does. There's no there there, just a hollow shell that reacts to what other people do.

Well, she's been very very good for Big Pharma, who has been very very good to her.
Quote:
Sen. Kyrsten Sinema, the controversial Arizona Democrat who threatens to derail President Biden's legislative agenda, received more than $750,000 in donations from the pharmaceutical and medical device industries. After that, she announced her opposition to a Democratic plan to lower prescription drug costs.
https://www.salon.com/2021/09/23/big...-opposed-bill/
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Old 4th October 2021, 10:23 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't think it's that exactly.

I think that nobody wants to address the "There's a Practical-Idealist Y axis in politics and if you bury your need too far on the idealist side of it your politics stop mattering" elephant in the room.

After a certain point all opinions become the same if you're not in the real world when you are having them.
Which end of the axis holds voting against your own party's bills but not telling anyone why or what you'd want instead? The idealists are usually pretty transparent, and the practicalists just want to get things done, so...
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Old 4th October 2021, 10:26 AM   #20
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Why is anybody pretending it's the progressives who are refusing to negotiate or compromise when they've already been doing that all along and it's only S&M who are actually refusing?

* * *

The ideal/practical paradigm is a lie. It is practical to fight for your ideals because they won't happen if you don't.
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Old 4th October 2021, 10:28 AM   #21
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Again that's not the point.

The Republican party has a far more massive ideological spread; everything from hardcore evangelicals to Presidents who bang porn starts, and still mange somehow to focus them enough to obtains certain goals.
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Old 4th October 2021, 10:36 AM   #22
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Old 4th October 2021, 10:44 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't think it's that exactly.



I think that nobody wants to address the "There's a Practical-Idealist Y axis in politics and if you bury your need too far on the idealist side of it your politics stop mattering" elephant in the room.



After a certain point all opinions become the same if you're not in the real world when you are having them.
This line of thought always seems to only flow in one direction, though.

The idealists have already moved halfway or more while the other side hasn't budged an inch.

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Old 4th October 2021, 10:46 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
This line of thought always seems to only flow in one direction, though.

The idealists have already moved halfway or more while the other side hasn't budged an inch.
Again not the point.
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Old 4th October 2021, 10:47 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again not the point.
You should probably trying making the point better, then. I'm not sure what you're getting at either.
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Old 4th October 2021, 10:48 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
She's a contrarian. She's totally defined by NOT doing what everyone else does. There's no there there, just a hollow shell that reacts to what other people do.
She should start posting here, she'd fit right in.
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Old 4th October 2021, 10:49 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
You should probably trying making the point better, then. I'm not sure what you're getting at either.
That Republicans get their way when they are in power and Democrats don't. And it politics everything that isn't that is beside the point.

But yeah let's infight about whether or not the Democrats infight too much. It it will make an even better show for the trolls watching and posting single emojis.
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Old 4th October 2021, 10:50 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
She should start posting here, she'd fit right in.
Yeah she's be another troll that we have to pretend doesn't exist.
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Old 4th October 2021, 10:54 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That Republicans get their way when they are in power and Democrats don't. And it politics everything that isn't that is beside the point.

But yeah let's infight about whether or not the Democrats infight too much. It it will make an even better show for the trolls watching and posting single emojis.
Drop the "above it all" shtick, please, your actual message is getting clouded by the ironic detachment.

Right now the Democrats are a minority party, because at least two of their members are Republicans. Those two members appear to be happy offering "do what the Republicans want" and "watch it all burn" as the only options, so what, specifically, are you suggesting be done?
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Old 4th October 2021, 10:59 AM   #30
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ose the houe and the senate in 2022, probally the White House in 2024, and be outlawed byt supreme leader Trump in 2025.
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Old 4th October 2021, 11:00 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Right now the Democrats are a minority party, because at least two of their members are Republicans.
Oh horse ****.

Republicans got a base of homespun evangelicals to vote for a man who couldn't walk past a church without bursting into flames. Pretending like Sinema and Manchin, as annoying as they are, are a different ******* species from Biden and AOC to the point that the very idea of compromise or an agreement of some point is absurd in the same context is just silly.

The difference is when Republicans get together they decide on the things they all agree they want and focus on that, which would be noble if everything the wanted was just horrible.

Because they see power as their goal, not morality.

At the end of the day that got them 3 Supreme Court Justices so who's laughing now. Just look at the trolls for the answer.
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Old 4th October 2021, 11:00 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
ose the houe and the senate in 2022, probally the White House in 2024, and be outlawed byt supreme leader Trump in 2025.
And then the Civil War, we know.
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Old 4th October 2021, 11:01 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh horse ****.

Republicans got a base of homespun evangelicals to vote for a man who couldn't walk past a church without bursting into flames. Pretending like Sinema and Manchin, as annoying as they are, are a different ******* species from Biden and AOC to the point that compromise or an agreement of some point is absurd in the same context is just silly.

The difference is when Republicans get together they decide on the things they all agree they want and focus on that, which would be noble if everything the wanted was just horrible.

Because they see power as their goal, not morality.

At the end of the day that got them 3 Supreme Court Justices so who's laughing now. Just look at trolls for the answer.
So what, specifically, are you suggesting be done?
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Old 4th October 2021, 11:06 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
So what, specifically, are you suggesting be done?
I dunno. Isn't that their job?

I do don't the whole "Yeah what's your answer smart guy" thing when it comes to elected officials.
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Old 4th October 2021, 11:10 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I dunno. Isn't that their job?

I do don't the whole "Yeah what's your answer smart guy" thing when it comes to elected officials.
Well if you're just saying "hey, get your act together guys" I'm happy to agree with you. You don't need to be so cryptic about that, everyone knows they're a dysfunctional clown car joined at the primary.

What I and others have been pointing out is that in recent memory, "let's all get together and get stuff done" has boiled down to "just shut up, progressives, the centrists want to shoot ourselves in the foot again and the rest of us don't want to appear divided."

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Old 4th October 2021, 11:20 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Well if you're just saying "hey, get your act together guys" I'm happy to agree with you. You don't need to be so cryptic about that, everyone knows they're a dysfunctional clown car joined at the primary.
I'm saying to able to come together enough to at least do SOMETHING is their job. I'm at a lost as to why this is a controversial opinion.

If I hire a plumber to fix my toilet and he can't fix my toilet he doesn't get to go "Well okay smart guy won't do you tell me how to fix a toilet then" I just hire a better plumber.

ETA: To be slightly less snarky I bristle at the idea that the Democratic Party is so ideologically fractured that any effective force from them is so absurd as to be laughable.
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Old 4th October 2021, 11:22 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Luckily the Dems will control the House and Senate through the end of next year. They have a lot of time to get this **** done.
I don't see how time will help with the fact that their so-called "majority" depends on a couple of people who simply don't want it to get done.
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Old 4th October 2021, 11:48 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm saying to able to come together enough to at least do SOMETHING is their job. I'm at a lost as to why this is a controversial opinion.

If I hire a plumber to fix my toilet and he can't fix my toilet he doesn't get to go "Well okay smart guy won't do you tell me how to fix a toilet then" I just hire a better plumber.

ETA: To be slightly less snarky I bristle at the idea that the Democratic Party is so ideologically fractured that any effective force from them is so absurd as to be laughable.
They're not too ideologically fractured, they're just led by dinosaurs who can't get organized on a level that can compete with the GOP's obstructionism. If this were a more civilized age, you could have a couple of weirdo red-state holdouts like Manchin because you could probably also attract a couple of weirdly forward thinking republicans from blue states. That's the the bygone Jedi Council era senior Dem leaders are referencing when they use terms like "bipartisanship." That was their business as usual. We haven't seen that for nearly thirty years now, and for all that time they've done nothing but steadily lose influence.

If y'ask me what, specifically, should be done about this, it'd be for the Dems to stop confusing compromise with capitulation. Manchin and Sinema will never support a viable funding bill, they've made that clear. However uncomfortable Schumer may be with hardball, it's time to play.
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Old 4th October 2021, 11:57 AM   #39
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Well yeah because the system never accounted for trolls. None of the rules; either official set-in-stone nor unofficial gentleman agreements, work anymore.

I've been saying that for years.
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Old 4th October 2021, 12:01 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That Republicans get their way when they are in power and Democrats don't. And it politics everything that isn't that is beside the point.



But yeah let's infight about whether or not the Democrats infight too much. It it will make an even better show for the trolls watching and posting single emojis.
I'm at a loss to connect your "point", as you describe it, to your prior statements.

As I predicted in a different thread, 2 democrats are holding up the party agenda, but somehow 94 democrats trying to enact that agenda, and who have already bent over backwards, are labeled as the problem.
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