IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 4th October 2021, 12:03 PM   #41
Boudicca90
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 728
This thread starts with a false premise. It's not the progressives vs. the "moderates" (corporatists), it's a few Republican sympathizers against the vast majority of the party!

Right now Manchin, Sinema, and their obstructionist allies are doing nothing but sabotaging the bill for their own agendas. In Manchin's case it's because he is heavily in the pockets of lobbyists and corporate interests and so his agenda is clear. Sinema was always hard to pin down because her political history makes no sense.

In a recent Secular Talk video, Kyle pointed out how it does make sense if she has no intention of remining in politics. It's very possible this has all been a springboard for a lobbyist position.
Boudicca90 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 12:03 PM   #42
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 35,610
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I'm at a loss to connect your "point", as you describe it, to your prior statements.

As I predicted in a different thread, 2 democrats are holding up the party agenda, but somehow 94 democrats trying to enact that agenda, and who have already bent over backwards, are labeled as the problem.
My point is I don't buy for a second that those 2 Democrats really have that much power.

Again Trump told Cruz his wife was ugly and Cruz would still take a bullet for Trump. Biden and Manchin/Sinema can come to some agreement.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 12:04 PM   #43
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,385
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I'm at a loss to connect your "point", as you describe it, to your prior statements.

As I predicted in a different thread, 2 democrats are holding up the party agenda, but somehow 94 democrats trying to enact that agenda, and who have already bent over backwards, are labeled as the problem.
I think his point is to chide the 94 for not being able to get the 2 in line, not get the 94 to give in to the 2.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Biden and Manchin/Sinema can come to some agreement.
Not without more hardball than the Democrats have displayed in years. They're allergic to conflict, just thinking about it gives them hives and you do not want to know how much Machin's daughter is charging for epi-pens these days with her dad shielding her from investigation for price fixing lifesaving medicine.

Last edited by Beelzebuddy; 4th October 2021 at 12:07 PM.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 12:04 PM   #44
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 35,610
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Kyle pointed out how it does make sense if she has no intention of remining in politics. I's very possible this has all been a springboard for a lobbyist position.
The fact that we have people in the highest level of elected legislature who are treating their jobs as an internship for lobbying or being a media talking head is... not good.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 12:06 PM   #45
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 35,610
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
I think his point is to chide the 94 for not being able to get the 2 in line, not get the 94 to give in to the 2.
Hmmm... sorta. "Chide" is a little more confrontational then I'm wanting to put across but it's not exactly wrong on a functional level.

I'm just saying being able to bring two minor outliers back into the fold to at least get something done isn't some unreasonable expectation.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 4th October 2021 at 12:08 PM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 12:21 PM   #46
Boudicca90
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 728
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
They're not too ideologically fractured, they're just led by dinosaurs who can't get organized on a level that can compete with the GOP's obstructionism. If this were a more civilized age, you could have a couple of weirdo red-state holdouts like Manchin because you could probably also attract a couple of weirdly forward thinking republicans from blue states. That's the the bygone Jedi Council era senior Dem leaders are referencing when they use terms like "bipartisanship." That was their business as usual. We haven't seen that for nearly thirty years now, and for all that time they've done nothing but steadily lose influence.

If y'ask me what, specifically, should be done about this, it'd be for the Dems to stop confusing compromise with capitulation. Manchin and Sinema will never support a viable funding bill, they've made that clear. However uncomfortable Schumer may be with hardball, it's time to play.
Agreed, but I wouldn't expect much to come from Schumer. He's already been caught making deals and agreements with Manchin without informing anyone else.

Secret Joe Manchin ‘Agreement’ With Chuck Schumer Leaves Democrats Scrambling

$1.5 trillion is a no-go and he knows it. We've compromised WAY too much already with bringing Bernie's original $6 trillion down to $3.5 trillion. The progressives need to hold firm against people who are trying to destroy this bill by watering it down to the point it does nothing significant for this country. Hopefully all the support and pressure I've been seeing from mainstream media will help influence the corporatists to do the right thing.
Boudicca90 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 12:27 PM   #47
Boudicca90
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 728
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
My point is I don't buy for a second that those 2 Democrats really have that much power.

Again Trump told Cruz his wife was ugly and Cruz would still take a bullet for Trump. Biden and Manchin/Sinema can come to some agreement.
You are trying to compare a normal political party with a cult.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The fact that we have people in the highest level of elected legislature who are treating their jobs as an internship for lobbying or being a media talking head is... not good.
Unfortunately it's the inevitable result of late-stage capitalism. It doesn't surprise me one bit.
Boudicca90 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 12:32 PM   #48
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,836
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
My point is I don't buy for a second that those 2 Democrats really have that much power.



Again Trump told Cruz his wife was ugly and Cruz would still take a bullet for Trump. Biden and Manchin/Sinema can come to some agreement.
They do have that much power.

The dems need literally every vote in the Senate. 1 member can torpedo the entire party agenda.

Whether you buy it or not, that is the reality.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 01:06 PM   #49
Hercules56
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,142
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Agreed, but I wouldn't expect much to come from Schumer. He's already been caught making deals and agreements with Manchin without informing anyone else.

Secret Joe Manchin ‘Agreement’ With Chuck Schumer Leaves Democrats Scrambling

$1.5 trillion is a no-go and he knows it. We've compromised WAY too much already with bringing Bernie's original $6 trillion down to $3.5 trillion. The progressives need to hold firm against people who are trying to destroy this bill by watering it down to the point it does nothing significant for this country. Hopefully all the support and pressure I've been seeing from mainstream media will help influence the corporatists to do the right thing.
How far are you and the Progs willing to go? Torpedo EVERYTHING if you don't get 100% of what you want? That means the Dems lose the House for another 10 years. And your agenda, is toast. And the Progs look like Leftist extremist crybabies.
Hercules56 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 01:14 PM   #50
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 31,886
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
How far are you and the Progs willing to go? Torpedo EVERYTHING if you don't get 100% of what you want? That means the Dems lose the House for another 10 years. And your agenda, is toast. And the Progs look like Leftist extremist crybabies.
What part of "they negotiated down" did you miss? The progs aren't getting everything they want, they've already given up concessions.
__________________
1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 01:18 PM   #51
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,252
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
What part of "they negotiated down" did you miss? The progs aren't getting everything they want, they've already given up concessions.
And they will likely give up more since a list of their preferences likely ranks a still smaller deal above no deal.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 01:23 PM   #52
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 29,395
Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
The "thumbs down" thing is still hard for me to get my head around.


The fundamental thing to understand about how governments and bureaucracies actually work is that most people don't have the power to say "Yes" to things, they mostly only have the power to say "No". And so they will always find something to say "No" to, just to prove (to themselves at least, if not anyone else) that they really are "powerful". Even in Congress, one person alone does not have the power to approve legislation, you need a majority vote for that, but as we see, one person can, in some cases, have the power to block such legislation.

So if you want to get anything done, you need to build into your plans something that everyone with the power to say "No" can say "no" to, while letting what you actually want to accomplish pass. The trick is figuring out which Stupid Plans will appeal to each person, so they focus on those elements, rather than anything important.

This lets them feel powerful, and gives them a narrative they can take back to their local voters. "Can you believe Biden wanted to ban ice cream as part of the "Infrastructure Bill"? Well, I put a stop to that, let me tell you!"
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 01:26 PM   #53
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,423
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
If you don't mind a baldly cynical CT take: she's a Republican plant. A Green party outsider and then a Democrat running on a progressive ticket should've only been a spoiler in Arizona splitting the blue vote... but she won. So now her role is only to make sure nothing of any consequence gets done and Democrats are blamed for it.
Yeah. I agree that she at the very least may as well be. It reminds me of how Lyndon Laroche used to use Democratic primaries as a form of entryism.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 01:57 PM   #54
Hercules56
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,142
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
What part of "they negotiated down" did you miss? The progs aren't getting everything they want, they've already given up concessions.
The Progs will get nothing, literally nothing, unless they can make a deal with the two Moderates. They wont get infrastructure and they won't get an expansion of Medicare, or anything for climate change, zippo. Nada.

That's what happens when you have such a tiny majority in the Senate.

One person can literally kill everything.
Hercules56 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 02:20 PM   #55
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,385
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
The Progs will get nothing, literally nothing, unless they can make a deal with the two Moderates. They wont get infrastructure and they won't get an expansion of Medicare, or anything for climate change, zippo. Nada.

That's what happens when you have such a tiny majority in the Senate.

One person can literally kill everything.
Your concern is noted.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 02:36 PM   #56
Boudicca90
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 728
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
The Progs will get nothing, literally nothing, unless they can make a deal with the two Moderates. They wont get infrastructure and they won't get an expansion of Medicare, or anything for climate change, zippo. Nada.

That's what happens when you have such a tiny majority in the Senate.

One person can literally kill everything.
And you are blaming everybody else EXCEPT those two "moderates".

We drew a line in the sand and the powers that be agreed to it. We are not going to throw out the most important parts of the bill because of a few hostage takers.
Boudicca90 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 02:48 PM   #57
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,423
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
The Progs will get nothing, literally nothing, unless they can make a deal with the two Moderates.
So what does Sinema want? How can you negotiate with someone that apparently doesn't even have terms?
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 03:03 PM   #58
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 31,886
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
So what does Sinema want? How can you negotiate with someone that apparently doesn't even have terms?
She has terms. She just doesn't want to tell anyone what they are, ever....
__________________
1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 03:20 PM   #59
Hercules56
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,142
Let's not forget that a lot of these so-called Progressive "Democrats" are really just Socialists who only ran on the Democrat line cause they knew they had no viable option other than a Republican or Democrat primary.

AOC is one such person.
Hercules56 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 03:25 PM   #60
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,423
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
She has terms. She just doesn't want to tell anyone what they are, ever....
At the risk of sounding sexist, an image search shows that she has a lot of interesting fashion choices. That would be fine, but combined with her obstructionism for reasons she won't even give, it comes across as incredibly attention-seeking behaviour.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 03:27 PM   #61
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,423
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Let's not forget that a lot of these so-called Progressive "Democrats" are really just Socialists who only ran on the Democrat line cause they knew they had no viable option other than a Republican or Democrat primary.

AOC is one such person.
True, but as you say, that's because they have no other option. At least they have a pretty clear set of policies and clearly stated agenda. It helps to have that.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 03:28 PM   #62
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 32,608
In answer to the OP question: Lose the '22 and '24 elections. Democracy in the USA will be over.
I'm old, white, and well-off. I'll be ok. Many others, not so much.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 03:39 PM   #63
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 10,825
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again that's not the point.

The Republican party has a far more massive ideological spread; everything from hardcore evangelicals to Presidents who bang porn starts, and still mange somehow to focus them enough to obtains certain goals.
So all of them will willingly lie and compromise their core principles when threatened with exposure of their secret perversions and indiscretions?
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 03:40 PM   #64
Boudicca90
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 728
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Let's not forget that a lot of these so-called Progressive "Democrats" are really just Socialists who only ran on the Democrat line cause they knew they had no viable option other than a Republican or Democrat primary.

AOC is one such person.
Ermahgerd! Socialists!!!

I've realized over the years as a former Green Party supporter that third parties just aren't viable here. Our Constitution locks us into a two-party system by design. A third party can only become successful if one of the two major parties weaken enough that a third party can syphon off enough voters.

That's why as much as I and other socialists hate it, we have to ally ourselves with the Dems. For the time being anyway, while our interests are still somewhat in alignment. They are a means to an end.
Boudicca90 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 03:45 PM   #65
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 10,825
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Let's not forget that a lot of these so-called Progressive "Democrats" are really just Socialists who only ran on the Democrat line cause they knew they had no viable option other than a Republican or Democrat primary.

AOC is one such person.
SOSHALIZM BAD!!! LOLZ.

Uh, you do know that there are a lot of socialist programs running in the USA already? A socialist program is one where your collected taxes go to pay for these programs that benefit everybody. See if you can think of one. Hint: At least one of these involves uniforms and guns.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 04:36 PM   #66
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 32,608
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
SOSHALIZM BAD!!! LOLZ.

Uh, you do know that there are a lot of socialist programs running in the USA already? A socialist program is one where your collected taxes go to pay for these programs that benefit everybody. See if you can think of one. Hint: At least one of these involves uniforms and guns.
And those things you drive your car on. But REEL 'MURICANS would rather the privately owned toll road begins at the end of your driveway.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 05:19 PM   #67
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 10,825
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
And those things you drive your car on. But REEL 'MURICANS would rather the privately owned toll road begins at the end of your driveway.
That go directly wherever they want to go today, and nobody else can drive on them.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 05:42 PM   #68
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,252
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
SOSHALIZM BAD!!! LOLZ.

Uh, you do know that there are a lot of socialist programs running in the USA already? A socialist program is one where your collected taxes go to pay for these programs that benefit everybody. See if you can think of one. Hint: At least one of these involves uniforms and guns.
That isn't socialism. That isn't social ownership of the means of production.

I'm hard pressed to think of something socialist in the US. I guess infrastructure capital if you want to go down that route?

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 4th October 2021 at 05:44 PM.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 06:09 PM   #69
Hercules56
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,142
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That isn't socialism. That isn't social ownership of the means of production.

I'm hard pressed to think of something socialist in the US. I guess infrastructure capital if you want to go down that route?
Public ownership and control of schools, hospitals, police, fire, ems, libraries, highways, utilities, is all socialism.
Hercules56 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 06:15 PM   #70
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 10,825
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That isn't socialism. That isn't social ownership of the means of production.
So who does own the military? A private firm? And why are you paying them trillions in YOUR collected taxes to run it?

Quote:
I'm hard pressed to think of something socialist in the US. I guess infrastructure capital if you want to go down that route?
Try harder. It's the same in many other countries, not just the USA.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 06:17 PM   #71
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,252
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Public ownership and control of schools, hospitals, police, fire, ems, libraries, highways, utilities, is all socialism.
As I said, infrastructure capital if we wanted to go down that route. I wasn't sure if we were.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 06:18 PM   #72
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,252
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
So who does own the military? A private firm? And why are you paying them trillions in YOUR collected taxes to run it?

Try harder. It's the same in many other countries, not just the USA.
I would not traditionally call the military the means of production....Boeing and Lockheed Martin are.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 06:52 PM   #73
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,836
I love when people pull out "means of production" to sound smart, but probably don't realize we're talking about something closer to "modes of production."

ETA: For example, we had surplus human labor capacity lining up at soup kitchens across the street from piles of raw materials during the Great Depression and some mystical force apparently came along and transformed that into finished goods, I guess.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 4th October 2021 at 08:30 PM.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 07:10 PM   #74
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 10,825
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I would not traditionally call the military the means of production....Boeing and Lockheed Martin are.
They "produce" your collective safety for the country, i.e. they provide a service. That's in the name. You collect taxes in a big (VERY big) bucket and pay them to do this. They, in turn, pay Boeing and Lockheed Martin, etc., out of that bucket to supply them with the tools of their job.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015

Last edited by Norman Alexander; 4th October 2021 at 07:12 PM.
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 07:15 PM   #75
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,252
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
They "produce" your collective safety for the country, i.e. they provide a service. That's in the name. You collect taxes in a big (VERY big) bucket and pay them to do this. They, in turn, pay Boeing and Lockheed Martin, etc., out of that bucket to supply them with the tools of their job.
which is why I said "traditionally".... because I agree with you.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 07:31 AM   #76
Suddenly
No Punting
 
Suddenly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 4,304
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
How far are you and the Progs willing to go? Torpedo EVERYTHING if you don't get 100% of what you want? That means the Dems lose the House for another 10 years. And your agenda, is toast. And the Progs look like Leftist extremist crybabies.
So it goes. This will probably happen anyway with the watered down bill because it won't have much of an effect. That and the failure to address voting issues.

So we can let the moderates lock in doom or we can force them to do something that will actually have a positive effect and give some hope. They've been running the party since the 1984 bloodbath and mostly have helped steer the country to the right.

At some point it becomes clear that they aren't going to do much of anything and why bother.

It might be time for progressives to start reregistering as Republicans and battling it out in primaries over there. GOP moderates are dead and our economic interests align better with much of the working class Trumpist base anyway. While obviously social issues are a problem it's probably less of one than being patronized by corporate Democrats who see us as a huge problem.
Suddenly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 12:16 PM   #77
Boudicca90
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 728
Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
So it goes. This will probably happen anyway with the watered down bill because it won't have much of an effect. That and the failure to address voting issues.

So we can let the moderates lock in doom or we can force them to do something that will actually have a positive effect and give some hope. They've been running the party since the 1984 bloodbath and mostly have helped steer the country to the right.

At some point it becomes clear that they aren't going to do much of anything and why bother.

It might be time for progressives to start reregistering as Republicans and battling it out in primaries over there. GOP moderates are dead and our economic interests align better with much of the working class Trumpist base anyway. While obviously social issues are a problem it's probably less of one than being patronized by corporate Democrats who see us as a huge problem.
If the corporatists don't keep standing in the way, they will have been the ones to kill the bill, of course the media will spin it in the corporatists' favor.

But allying myself with the Republicans? A party that is on a razor's edge from going full-on Fourth Reich? Not interested.

I can at least work with liberals and there is enough commonality there that they could see from my perspective. But most conservatives are so far gone that it is a waste of time. Especially anybody who voted for Trump twice. They are completely gone.
Boudicca90 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 12:42 PM   #78
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,332
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
At the risk of sounding sexist, an image search shows that she has a lot of interesting fashion choices. That would be fine, but combined with her obstructionism for reasons she won't even give, it comes across as incredibly attention-seeking behaviour.
It's not only bad when Trump does it.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 12:44 PM   #79
ZiprHead
Critical Thinker
 
ZiprHead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Sag-Nasty
Posts: 405
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Let's not forget that a lot of these so-called Progressive "Democrats" are really just Socialists who only ran on the Democrat line cause they knew they had no viable option other than a Republican or Democrat primary.

AOC is one such person.
socialism2.jpg
__________________
When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy.

Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor but because we can't satisfy the rich.
ZiprHead is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 01:15 PM   #80
Suddenly
No Punting
 
Suddenly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 4,304
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post

But allying myself with the Republicans? A party that is on a razor's edge from going full-on Fourth Reich? Not interested.

I can at least work with liberals and there is enough commonality there that they could see from my perspective. But most conservatives are so far gone that it is a waste of time. Especially anybody who voted for Trump twice. They are completely gone.

It isn't being an ally. It's taking the party over by making a better sale to the working poor that is the most of their base. The Democrats have such a poisoned image with this base that even being a Democrat is disqualifying. It isn't hard to sell progressive policies to workers based on their self-interest unless you've managed to be painted as their worst enemy.

I've been batting around the idea of running for something in 2020 and if I do it will be as a Republican. I can either try to sell the people I grew up with on being in a party with Pelosi and her massive ice cream freezer or I can agree with them as to how liberals are useless morons. who are stopping solid reforms that help working folk because they are a disorganized cowardly mess who deep down inside worry more about not becoming working class than helping it and go from there.

Which isn't exactly fair, but neither is it all that much of a stretch. Remember that to some people Bush and Trump are the ones that sent them checks while Obama tried to fine them for not being able to afford health insurance.

The Trump voters are completely gone from the perspective of the Democratic Party, but huge numbers of them skew economically progressive and just don't like the brand.
Suddenly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:44 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.