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Old 5th October 2021, 01:51 PM   #81
Boudicca90
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
It isn't being an ally. It's taking the party over by making a better sale to the working poor that is the most of their base. The Democrats have such a poisoned image with this base that even being a Democrat is disqualifying. It isn't hard to sell progressive policies to workers based on their self-interest unless you've managed to be painted as their worst enemy.

I've been batting around the idea of running for something in 2020 and if I do it will be as a Republican. I can either try to sell the people I grew up with on being in a party with Pelosi and her massive ice cream freezer or I can agree with them as to how liberals are useless morons. who are stopping solid reforms that help working folk because they are a disorganized cowardly mess who deep down inside worry more about not becoming working class than helping it and go from there.

Which isn't exactly fair, but neither is it all that much of a stretch. Remember that to some people Bush and Trump are the ones that sent them checks while Obama tried to fine them for not being able to afford health insurance.

The Trump voters are completely gone from the perspective of the Democratic Party, but huge numbers of them skew economically progressive and just don't like the brand.
Good luck with that, but you don't take over the system, the system takes you over.

You choose to go down that rabbit hole, I hope you come out the other side.
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Old 5th October 2021, 02:18 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
In answer to the OP question: Lose the '22 and '24 elections. Democracy in the USA will be over.
I'm old, white, and well-off. I'll be ok. Many others, not so much.
Yeah, I find myself in a weird position. I would prefer that the government was actually functioning to make the country a better place, but the status quote tilts to my favor as an individual.

So, this doesn’t give me much heartburn. I don’t have much on the line, I guess. Therefore I think they should just hold the line. Sell the **** out of what this bill would have done for people in the states of those who didn’t support it and maybe voters will notice that the lobbyist aren’t looking out for their best interests. They are looking out for mine.
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Old 5th October 2021, 02:28 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Good luck with that, but you don't take over the system, the system takes you over.

You choose to go down that rabbit hole, I hope you come out the other side.
When the electorate is about 15k eligible voters and I lack any larger political ambition it really isn't much of a rabbit hole.

The thing about the GOP becoming a nihilistic cesspool that only exists to maintain its own power in opposition to liberals is that ironically creates a lot of flexibility as to the means because all of that is branding.

On a local level they can be a useful ballot access tool. Had I run in 2020 I probably couldn't have lost even if I tried. I just wasn't ready then, and a guy I knew in the other country was, registered GOP, and beat the long time incumbent, a pro-Trump Joe Manchin type Democrat by 4-1 with nearly zero campaigning.

It moved that office to the left, and people still think they stuck it to the liberals by tossing that collaborating blue-dog out on his can. Trump is turning out tons of voters that are just voting GOP with no regard who is on that line, so a progressive with a small progressive base that can get on that line is never going to lose.
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Old 5th October 2021, 03:15 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
In answer to the OP question: Lose the '22 and '24 elections. Democracy in the USA will be over.
I'm old, white, and well-off. I'll be ok. Many others, not so much.
It won't go down peacefully, I can tell you that.
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Old 5th October 2021, 03:21 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I love when people pull out "means of production" to sound smart, but probably don't realize we're talking about something closer to "modes of production."

ETA: For example, we had surplus human labor capacity lining up at soup kitchens across the street from piles of raw materials during the Great Depression and some mystical force apparently came along and transformed that into finished goods, I guess.
That was Robert Heinlein's argument when he was trying to prove that the Marxist surplus value theory was nonsense.which it is, at least as Marx proposed it.
If you think today's system is a failure and doomed, fine. But don;t propose pure Marxism as the solution given it's record;it's just replacing one failed system with another failed system.
And some of the excuses you hear from the True Believers for Marxism's failure are quite amusing.
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Old 5th October 2021, 03:24 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
If the corporatists don't keep standing in the way, they will have been the ones to kill the bill, of course the media will spin it in the corporatists' favor.

But allying myself with the Republicans? A party that is on a razor's edge from going full-on Fourth Reich? Not interested.

I can at least work with liberals and there is enough commonality there that they could see from my perspective. But most conservatives are so far gone that it is a waste of time. Especially anybody who voted for Trump twice. They are completely gone.
which leave the question of what you do with them after the Glorious People's Revolution. Russia and China do not give one confidence that it will be humane.
And the idea of "The sooner we have Fascism, the sooner we will have the Revolution" has quite a following on the militant left.
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Old 5th October 2021, 03:28 PM   #87
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It's not even a case of the progressives vs the centrists. The centrists aren't holding up the bill, the overwhelming majority of them are happy with the agreed plan.

It's Sinema and Manchin in the Senate holding things up. A conservative (Manchin) and whatever the hell Sinema is are the problem.

Manchin is easy to understand. He represents a conservative state, and despite his independent streak he may still lose the seat to an outright Republican.

Sinema is more of a mystery. Her stunt is alienating more voters than it's gaining and it's not even close.

Quote:
NEW: Public sentiment about Kyrsten Sinema has declined in Arizona since the beginning of the year, driven by a 41-point tumble in her net approval rating among home-state Democrats.
https://twitter.com/eyokley/status/1445121387975352330

A small uptick in Republican support is nothing compared to the massive loss in popularity she is suffering among Democrats. She started the year +13 positive approval rating and is sitting at 0 now.
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Old 5th October 2021, 03:31 PM   #88
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PUt me down a Democratic Centrist who thinks that Manchin and Sinema are total jerks who are on a power trip.
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Old 5th October 2021, 04:43 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
PUt me down a Democratic Centrist who thinks that Manchin and Sinema are total jerks who are on a power trip.
Better late than never.
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Old 5th October 2021, 05:02 PM   #90
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"Why aren't these politicians good upstanding people like all the other politicians?"

Y'all need to be less worried about the politicians who are getting in your way, and more worried about the politicians who find it convenient to make you think they're doing what you want.
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Old 5th October 2021, 05:35 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Manchin is easy to understand. He represents a conservative state
A conservative state where the people are in favor of this bill, so he's going against them, not going along with them & their conservatism. The real explanation of him is his coal money. Cut out the stuff that affects coal and he'll be happy.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Sinema is more of a mystery. Her stunt is alienating more voters than it's gaining and it's not even close.
Someone observed recently that, although she normally just doesn't answer people, she did have a rather defensive outburst online in one particular case recently. Taking that as a sign of what is most important to her, he concluded that, after her overachieving past, what she would most want to avoid is damage to her reputation as a serious & important intellectual presence. So the key to getting her to change course would be to get her to believe her current course is damaging that: presenting herself as someone who is not to be taken seriously, has a stubbornly simple-minded approach, can't be reasoned with, and doesn't debate/discuss things in good faith.
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Old 5th October 2021, 05:47 PM   #92
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Biden says changing filibuster rules to raise debt ceiling is a ‘real possibility’

President has expressed fury at Republicans for blocking repeated efforts to raise the borrowing limit. But changing filibuster rules would require support from all Senate Democrats.

Tony Romm8:34 p.m. EDT

https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-po...ng-filibuster/
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Old 5th October 2021, 07:36 PM   #93
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At first I found it odd for the Republicans to be against that while lecturing Democrats about how important it is to do, but now I've heard the explanation. Apparently the idea is to force the Democrats to use budget reconciliation on it, because if they do that, then they can't use it on the "infrastructure" bill because setting the budget only happens so often. But why not use it once and then use it again as an amendment to the budget?
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Old 6th October 2021, 09:24 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That was Robert Heinlein's argument when he was trying to prove that the Marxist surplus value theory was nonsense.which it is, at least as Marx proposed it.
It's pretty facile though. If those people did want to do that they'd be prosecuted for theft and/or trespass because those raw materials belonged to people who weren't about to give them away. Also, what caused that situation was the failure of capitalism to allocate resources properly, and part of the solution were policies that were socialist in nature.
Quote:

If you think today's system is a failure and doomed, fine. But don;t propose pure Marxism as the solution given it's record;it's just replacing one failed system with another failed system.
And some of the excuses you hear from the True Believers for Marxism's failure are quite amusing.
Anyone who wants to follow pure 19th century or older economic theory, be it Adam Smith or Karl Marx is a fool. The idea that capitalism destroys itself is pretty clear from history. The idea that market forces can be totally brought to heel has likewise be discredited.

The idea this is either/or is nonsense. The problem is this is mainstream thought on the right while on the left the total abolishment of capitalism just isn't a position of any relevance no matter how many people want to call AOC or even Biden a communist because reasons.
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Old 6th October 2021, 10:09 AM   #95
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So, looks like what the Democrats are going to do is shorten the timeline for some of these programs from say 10 to 5 years, and other programs will have an income limit. This will bring cost down to say $2 trillion over 10 years.

Makes a ton of sense.
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Old 6th October 2021, 10:44 AM   #96
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We accept new law replaces old law. Why hasn't the budget....a new law authorizing spending....been interpreted as superseding the old law that was the debt limit?
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Old 6th October 2021, 11:39 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
So, looks like what the Democrats are going to do is shorten the timeline for some of these programs from say 10 to 5 years, and other programs will have an income limit. This will bring cost down to say $2 trillion over 10 years.

Makes a ton of sense.
I was listening to Left, Right, and Center, and this was in essence what Josh Barro said would be a good plan. Get it passed for a shorter time frame, let the people see it, and then run on it for 2022 and 2024. If you make gains, then pass it for longer and with improvements.

It's really not a bad strategy.
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Old 6th October 2021, 11:53 AM   #98
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It might be a good strategy, but it's bad infrastructure planning.
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Old 6th October 2021, 12:03 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It might be a good strategy, but it's bad infrastructure planning.
How so? Getting something done for 5 years, in hopes of getting more done after that, is some how worse than getting nothing done because the bill is being held up?

I'm curious, please go on.
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Old 6th October 2021, 12:16 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
How so? Getting something done for 5 years, in hopes of getting more done after that, is some how worse than getting nothing done because the bill is being held up?

I'm curious, please go on.
2022 is in like 5 minutes. The idea that anyone would be running on the effect of an infrastructure bill in that election is just beyond practical reason even if anyone ran on policy these days. They wouldn't be in the planning stages of anything by then.

It's just a way to spin failure. "Let the voters decide" is something that seems to only be a thing when Democrats are in office. This is why the last 40 years has been them trying to figure out more and more subtle ways to slink away from any sort of fight.
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Old 6th October 2021, 12:25 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It might be a good strategy, but it's bad infrastructure planning.
This wont affect the infrastructure bill, or the green energy stuff.

Just the Medicare, tax credits, and family leave.
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Old 6th October 2021, 12:29 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I was listening to Left, Right, and Center, and this was in essence what Josh Barro said would be a good plan. Get it passed for a shorter time frame, let the people see it, and then run on it for 2022 and 2024. If you make gains, then pass it for longer and with improvements.

It's really not a bad strategy.
Its beaituful. Its why Trump's tax cuts for the middle class will get extended. People want good programs and ideas to continue, and they will LOVE Paid Family Leave, expanded Medicare with a lower eligibility age, free Community College. Not extending such things in 5 years would be political suicide.

Glad to see the Democrats put their heads together and come up with a solution. Hell, they could make it a 3 year budget, throw in a Public Option for Obamacare and bring Medicare age to 50, and Congress will still have no choice but to keep it going in 2024. Once the people have an entitlement, they NEVER want to lose it.

Last edited by Hercules56; 6th October 2021 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 6th October 2021, 01:01 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
2022 is in like 5 minutes. The idea that anyone would be running on the effect of an infrastructure bill in that election is just beyond practical reason even if anyone ran on policy these days. They wouldn't be in the planning stages of anything by then.
We all know that politics is based around practical reasoning!

Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
It's just a way to spin failure. "Let the voters decide" is something that seems to only be a thing when Democrats are in office. This is why the last 40 years has been them trying to figure out more and more subtle ways to slink away from any sort of fight.
If you consider it failure, than we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't. If they passed the 10 year, by your logic, they couldn't run on it either. So what's to lose other than policies being popular by 2024 during a huge general election? There are two ways to look at it, either get something passed before they lose the House, which they will, in hopes of winning it back in 2024 (along with the Senate and WH). The other option is to get absolutely ******* nothing passed at all.
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Old 6th October 2021, 01:05 PM   #104
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Well that's why the Democrats are always fighting with one hand behind their back.

Change, real effective change, almost always takes time. A change that takes time looks like failure to idiots.
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Old 6th October 2021, 04:28 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Glad to see the Democrats put their heads together and come up with a solution.
It's not a solution until the DINOs agree to it.
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Old 6th October 2021, 04:36 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
It's not a solution until the DINOs agree to it.
They will agree.

They get their agenda passed, the programs get put into law. That's the ultimate goal. Once they are law, damn hard to undo it. Funding them in 5 years will be dealt with by the next Congress and President.

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Old 6th October 2021, 05:27 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post



If you consider it failure, than we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't. If they passed the 10 year, by your logic, they couldn't run on it either. So what's to lose other than policies being popular by 2024 during a huge general election? There are two ways to look at it, either get something passed before they lose the House, which they will, in hopes of winning it back in 2024 (along with the Senate and WH). The other option is to get absolutely ******* nothing passed at all.
When you convince yourself that compromise is the best case scenario you've gone wrong somewhere and are just going to get exploited until the end of time. When the likes of Joe Manchin are holding you hostage, well, I can't wait to see what rationalization there will be to back down over the debt ceiling and eat whatever humiliation McConnell has cooked up.

It has nothing to do with elections. In the last decade the conservative movement has with minority support through sheer ruthlessness and brinksmanship done enough to change the course of politics in the US for generations even if they never win another presidential election or gain control of congress. The Democrats have consistently preached patience and here we are.
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Old 6th October 2021, 05:41 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well that's why the Democrats are always fighting with one hand behind their back.

Change, real effective change, almost always takes time. A change that takes time looks like failure to idiots.
I'm open to examples where this has been the case. Or failing that at least a solid example of the progressive wing of the party not folding and getting in line at least since McGovern. The closest to a progressive victory of the last forever is a moderate healthcare bill that was passed in a hurry and has stood up because it is hard to find at all plausible more conservative option that wouldn't end in collapse and force a reckoning.

History has been a pattern of progressive surges which are then slowly rolled back. Not the other way around.
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Old 6th October 2021, 06:04 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Apparently the idea is to force the Democrats to use budget reconciliation on it, because if they do that, then they can't use it on the "infrastructure" bill because setting the budget only happens so often. But why not use it once and then use it again as an amendment to the budget?


At this point, I think the Democrats need to take a lesson from the Republicans, and just start blatantly lying.

Pass the debt limit bill using reconciliation, then pass the infrastructure bill the same way. When the GOP says, "Hey, you already did that once!", just respond "No we didn't, nobody saw anything, you can't prove it!"

Just ******* lie.
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Old 6th October 2021, 06:17 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
At this point, I think the Democrats need to take a lesson from the Republicans, and just start blatantly lying.

Pass the debt limit bill using reconciliation, then pass the infrastructure bill the same way. When the GOP says, "Hey, you already did that once!", just respond "No we didn't, nobody saw anything, you can't prove it!"

Just ******* lie.
I've been on team trillion dollar coin since the last time this hostage situation went down.

The problem is I can see the Democrats messing that up by arguing over whose picture should be on it. Manchin gleefully forcing them into putting Robert Byrd's mug on there as a show of his dominance would be fitting.

I'm all for ruthlessness, but I'd settle for their telling the hall monitor... I mean Parliamentarian... to stick it next time that office acts like it is real.

Last edited by Suddenly; 6th October 2021 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 6th October 2021, 09:36 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
I've been on team trillion dollar coin since the last time this hostage situation went down.

The problem is I can see the Democrats messing that up by arguing over whose picture should be on it. Manchin gleefully forcing them into putting Robert Byrd's mug on there as a show of his dominance would be fitting.

I'm all for ruthlessness, but I'd settle for their telling the hall monitor... I mean Parliamentarian... to stick it next time that office acts like it is real.
I want to get my vote in for Daffy Duck. It seems fitting.
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Old 6th October 2021, 10:54 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Apparently the idea is to force the Democrats to use budget reconciliation on it, because if they do that, then they can't use it on the "infrastructure" bill because setting the budget only happens so often. But why not use it once and then use it again as an amendment to the budget?
Two headlines I ran across today seem to say the Republicans' approach on this is beginning to fail in two different ways:

1. Enough Republicans, including Evil Turtle, realizing how dumb this looked and switching to just saying they'll vote for it & move on to fight over something else later

2. Some Democrats who were against filibuster elimination before now reconsidering it

Of those two, the second would be much more important, because then that would mean the filibuster would also be gone for other bills afterward.
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Old 7th October 2021, 11:34 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That was Robert Heinlein's argument when he was trying to prove that the Marxist surplus value theory was nonsense.which it is, at least as Marx proposed it.

If you think today's system is a failure and doomed, fine. But don;t propose pure Marxism as the solution given it's record;it's just replacing one failed system with another failed system.

And some of the excuses you hear from the True Believers for Marxism's failure are quite amusing.
I was neither proposing our current system a failure, nor elevating any other. I was pointing out a misuse of terminology.

You can put your knee-jerk condemnation of Marxist philosophy away now.
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Old 7th October 2021, 11:38 AM   #114
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Again literally nobody in 2021 should be trying to win an argument by talking about how people from before "Being able to take a crap without going outside" was the norm defined things.

We are not forever trapped in how political and economic systems were defined in post-Napoleonic Europe.

I don't give a **** what Marx said about this or Fourier said about that or how "Wealth of Nations" defined something and neither should anyone else.
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Old 7th October 2021, 11:47 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
I've been on team trillion dollar coin since the last time this hostage situation went down.

The problem is I can see the Democrats messing that up by arguing over whose picture should be on it. Manchin gleefully forcing them into putting Robert Byrd's mug on there as a show of his dominance would be fitting.

I'm all for ruthlessness, but I'd settle for their telling the hall monitor... I mean Parliamentarian... to stick it next time that office acts like it is real.
If they had an outright majority, it works like this:

The motion is made. At some point the motion itself is challenged as out of order. The chair may or may not consult the parliamentarian, but will (correctly) sustain the objection. Then someone in the majority requests to appeal the ruling of the chair. This is resolved by a roll call vote with a simple majority. In very recent years, they have added that if the chair is overruled on appeal, the "rule" is amended to the new reality. This is to avoid the same cumbersome process dragging out going forward.

Prior to this new twist, rules were only able to be changed by simple majority on the first day of a session.

With two Senators in our caucus being the very cause of this mess, it is all entirely moot. Even with 50, I'm not sure if Kamala Harris gets to break ties on procedural motions, objections, appealing the ruling of the chair, etc. The very nature of such an event would drive up the dramatic tension even more.

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Old 7th October 2021, 12:20 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
which leave the question of what you do with them after the Glorious People's Revolution. Russia and China do not give one confidence that it will be humane.
And the idea of "The sooner we have Fascism, the sooner we will have the Revolution" has quite a following on the militant left.
Personally I'm a softie at heart and would be fine with just seizing their assets and property and marginalizing them to the fringes of society if they continue to cause problems.

I've never agreed with the accelerationists, and fortunately they are a minority among us. It's a dangerous gamble and I'm not someone who likes to gamble. I prefer a more steady and gradual approach through mainstream levers of power.
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Old 7th October 2021, 01:34 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
When you convince yourself that compromise is the best case scenario you've gone wrong somewhere and are just going to get exploited until the end of time. When the likes of Joe Manchin are holding you hostage, well, I can't wait to see what rationalization there will be to back down over the debt ceiling and eat whatever humiliation McConnell has cooked up.

It has nothing to do with elections. In the last decade the conservative movement has with minority support through sheer ruthlessness and brinksmanship done enough to change the course of politics in the US for generations even if they never win another presidential election or gain control of congress. The Democrats have consistently preached patience and here we are.
Exactly. The obstructionist corporatists in the Democratic Party have learned much from their Republican friends.

Biden needs to take a strong stance against Manchin, Sinema, and the few others standing in the way of this bill: "We don't negotiate with terrorists."

They will keep trying this stunt every time unless Biden and Pelosi put a stop to it now.
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Old 8th October 2021, 04:20 PM   #118
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It's funny how this whole episode is exposing that it was the conservative dems, not the progressives, that are a deeply ideological fringe that are willing to torpedo their own party in order to get their own way.

For people like Manchin or Sinema, concepts like "bipartisanship" or "fiscal responsibility" are not so much pragmatic principles, but articles of faith. They are both willing to show themselves to be extremely unreasonable actors in order to not betray these principles.

It's strange that for all the barbs thrown at AOC, Bernie, or the other progressives about being obstinate, fringe members of the party not willing to think of the greater good of the party, they almost always end up toeing the line (after some small protest) and being good team players.

What Sinema, Manchin, and the handful of austerity hawks in the House are doing to sabotage Biden's moderate agenda is nothing short of blind ideology (or corrupt service to their funders), and it's becoming increasingly difficult for even the most biased pundits to deny it.
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Old 8th October 2021, 04:49 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's funny how this whole episode is exposing that it was the conservative dems, not the progressives, that are a deeply ideological fringe that are willing to torpedo their own party in order to get their own way.

For people like Manchin or Sinema, concepts like "bipartisanship" or "fiscal responsibility" are not so much pragmatic principles, but articles of faith. They are both willing to show themselves to be extremely unreasonable actors in order to not betray these principles.

It's strange that for all the barbs thrown at AOC, Bernie, or the other progressives about being obstinate, fringe members of the party not willing to think of the greater good of the party, they almost always end up toeing the line (after some small protest) and being good team players.

What Sinema, Manchin, and the handful of austerity hawks in the House are doing to sabotage Biden's moderate agenda is nothing short of blind ideology (or corrupt service to their funders), and it's becoming increasingly difficult for even the most biased pundits to deny it.
This could be an interesting moment in the Democratic Party, since now the 'centrists' are on the fringe on the party's agenda instead of the other way around. I admit, I thought Bernie working within the Biden Admin wouldn't get us anywhere, but I was wrong.

Biden and the more moderate Dems are actually listening to us for once. It's a weird feeling.
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Old 11th October 2021, 08:04 PM   #120
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Apparently Sinema's office just "leaked" (floated) that it's about a particular climate-change provision. Global warming & coal happens to be what I've said before would satisfy Manchin. So that's it. Put up a version of the bill with less or nothing on global warming & climate change, and we'll still get all the rest of it.
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