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Tags cold reading , mediums , psychics

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Old Yesterday, 02:39 PM   #641
bluesjnr
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
I agree with you isissxn; moving from a belief in psychics to an understanding that they are all fraudulent is neither a linear nor an easy process.
I understand but the journey can be made a lot easier if the person making the journey steps outside the door and walks the path we've cleared for them.
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Old Yesterday, 02:46 PM   #642
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
...snipped...

Also, why was that subject to wartime shortage? It's not like it's insulin or morphine or something that takes a significant amount of time and apparatus to produce. An oxygen tent is just a simple enclosure that can be [euphemism]-rigged out of practically any non- or semi-permeable fabric, including a bedsheet or canvas soaked in water.

Here is an account from 1937 of a Royal Navy surgeon improvising one aboard ship. The notion that determined health-care providers wouldn't be able to create a makeshift enclosure when the life of an infant is at stake seems suspect to me.



...snipped....
Also, during WW-II the British issued baby respirator masks, and pram covers. Rigging an oxygen feed to an existing device would be simple.
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Old Yesterday, 02:48 PM   #643
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
It was the "pay no mind" I objected to, to be specific. I think it bad form to encourage people to ignore others at ones behest. One should let the recipient make up their own minds whether to engage or not.
Okay, you're right. That's probably true. I should have considered my wording more carefully. To be honest, I'd barely considered it at all. I was going for a friendly and supportive tone, and I just sort of tossed in a dismissive platitude, I guess. I didn't think about its wider implications, and I probably should have in a public forum setting. That was dumbassery on my part. I apologize and retract.

Quote:
You say we could "potentially" help AmyW, I say there is no potentially about it! We can and we are helping her, in spades, and the unwritten part of the bargain in exchange for the help she requested is that she apply the sound advice and reasoning she has been graciously given over 16 pages and 600+ posts without pulling the "whaddabout this then?" card.

AmyW, the next time you find yourself wavering over something that some medium has told you, simply re-read this thread, reference the books you said you'd bought/were going to buy and apply the logic - that way lies your "relief". There is nothing to be gained by asking what is essentially the same question to have us reiterate the same answer.



ETA - I should've said, "Don't let others' skepticism get you down! If you're really here to learn, then you'll understand why people have those kinds of questions soon enough." That would have been way better and somewhat more accurate.

Last edited by isissxn; Yesterday at 02:55 PM. Reason: to add
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Old Yesterday, 02:53 PM   #644
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
At some point, when people explain things a few times, with Amy indicating she understood, then, again started the questions, but at another angle.

I consider myself to be of a patient nature, but after awhile . . .
Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
moving from a belief in psychics to an understanding that they are all fraudulent is neither a linear nor an easy process.
The problem is not just questions or a slow pace of progress. It's the act of continuing to go back to the same con artists looking for a way to get conned again.

Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I understand but the journey can be made a lot easier if the person making the journey steps outside the door and walks the path we've cleared for them.
Or just doesn't keep going back the opposite way.
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Old Yesterday, 04:00 PM   #645
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bluesjnr, et al,

I understand the frustration of reiterating the same message, and having the recipient accept and then reject it repeatedly. (Remember Robin1, who held onto the belief in a stage medium far beyond anyone's ability to help her?)

Please reread my message #630, in light of isisxn's comment about OCD. Also, please consider that AmyW is not in the same situation as Scorpion or Robin1, who assert that spirits exist, whereas AmyW is trying to fight clear of that belief.
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Old Yesterday, 04:17 PM   #646
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Okay, you're right. That's probably true. I should have considered my wording more carefully. To be honest, I'd barely considered it at all. I was going for a friendly and supportive tone, and I just sort of tossed in a dismissive platitude, I guess. I didn't think about its wider implications, and I probably should have in a public forum setting. That was dumbassery on my part. I apologize and retract.






ETA - I should've said, "Don't let others' skepticism get you down! If you're really here to learn, then you'll understand why people have those kinds of questions soon enough." That would have been way better and somewhat more accurate.
Nope. Do not apologise at all. I lost the faith 35+ years ago, yet still from time to time those ingrained superstitions raise their ugly heads. If it is beaten into you as a child, it is not an easy thing to rid oneself of it. One does not simply decide to be an atheist and that is the end of it. There is accumulated baggage.
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Old Yesterday, 11:49 PM   #647
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
Also, during WW-II the British issued baby respirator masks, and pram covers. Rigging an oxygen feed to an existing device would be simple.
But don't forget there was no NHS, lots of people couldn't afford proper medical care, add in the state of medicine back then and it is entirely consistent with babies and children dying for want of basic health care so I don't find that part implausible on the surface.
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Old Today, 04:39 AM   #648
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Stone me, some of you have been busy since I last looked at this thread. Nit picking everything I have said in an attempt to say I am making it all up.

Well I am not, its all true, and I am sure the medium was genuine.

I realize all of you are trying to explain it all away to fit your negative beliefs, but I have little doubt, and in any case I had a lot of other messages that were convincing over the years. The one from my dead brother was the most convincing, but I was told many other things. Like a message from my grandfather describing the circumstances of his death.
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Old Today, 04:57 AM   #649
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Nobody's saying you are making it up, Scorpion. We are pointing out that just like every human, you have plastic memory. Every time anyone repeats an anecdote, their memory of it changes slightly. That is normal.

What we are also pointing out is that there is a rational explanation for everything these "mediums" say to you and to AmyW and everyone else. These "mediums" aren't in contact with spirits, they perform cold and hot reading in a way that is perfectly explicable without resorting to magic or spirits.
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Old Today, 05:05 AM   #650
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
Scorpion, as I've explained to you before, there's a free, easy to access register that lists all births, marriages and deaths in the UK. It's online now but prior to the internet you just had to go to any library. The "medium" and her associates will have researched every single member of the congregation of the church you attended, including you. Because that's what they do.

Also, where did the "oxygen tents" come from? In every retelling of this story on this site (and there has been several) prior to the one with the oxygen tents, you've never mentioned them before. This is classic evolution of your story.
I cannot see my way to going back through all my posts over the years to find if I had mentioned an oxygen tent before, but I am pretty sure I did. If I left out such a detail it was because I did not expect to be called out on it.
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Old Today, 06:10 AM   #651
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I cannot see my way to going back through all my posts over the years to find if I had mentioned an oxygen tent before, but I am pretty sure I did.
Okay, but also irrelevant. There is nothing in your story nor that of any other person who thinks they've encountered a "medium" that requires the so-called spiritualist to have done anything other than some mundane combination of cold and/or hot reading on you.
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Old Today, 06:59 AM   #652
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I cannot see my way to going back through all my posts over the years to find if I had mentioned an oxygen tent before, but I am pretty sure I did. If I left out such a detail it was because I did not expect to be called out on it.
Here you go:

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
To the best of my recollection the medium said the following.
" I have got your brother here" I said "No" The medium said "well he looks exactly like you". She then went on to say he had died in the war as a baby because there was no equipment in the hospital. I cannot remember the exact words but I do think she used the word "equipment" She then went on to say my brothers name, and that he had grown up in the spirit world.
He was studying to develop his intellect and he advised me to do the same, rather than allowing my head to be ruled by emotion. Which was an accurate reading of my personality.
When I asked my mother about it she said he died because there were no oxygen tents available because of the war.
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I cannot remember the exact words the medium used but it was to the effect that my brother died because there was no equipment in the hospital due to the war. I asked my mother about this and she confirmed he died because the hospital had no oxygen tents.
So the medium was right, and to answer another poster, that information would be unlikely to be on his death certificate
What is very interesting is that the next post to the one immediately above was:

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I suggest you read, 'The teachings of Silver Birch'. To understand the mind set of mediums, many of whose lives are spent giving service to others. To comfort the bereaved, and inspire people with a better vision of God than the cruel tyrant described in the bible.
If you recall Scorpion has now disowned Silver Birch....


Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I cannot remember the exact words the medium used but it was to the effect that my brother died because there was no equipment in the hospital due to the war. I asked my mother about this and she confirmed he died because the hospital had no oxygen tents.
So the medium was right, and to answer another poster, that information would be unlikely to be on his death certificate
What does it say on his death certificate?


Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
When I remember exactly what was said I use quotation marks, but I cannot always remember exact words so I explained that when I was discussing what the medium said about hospital equipment. I am sure she said "equipment", because when I recounted that to my mother on the same evening she piped in that it was because there were no oxygen tents.
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Old Today, 07:04 AM   #653
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Nit picking everything I have said in an attempt to say I am making it all up.
You're presenting your claims in a skeptics forum. Don't expect a sympathetic reception, and don't try to shame your critics away from trying to reconcile the details you keep throwing in. You're free to seek out whatever sympathetic audience you can find elsewhere, if that's the kind of reinforcement you expect. Here we are skeptics and we're testing the evidence.

Quote:
Well I am not, its all true, and I am sure the medium was genuine.
It's your need to have the medium be genuine that's compelling you to keep adding detail to the story to make "true mediums" seem like the best answer.

Quote:
I realize all of you are trying to explain it all away to fit your negative beliefs...
Every time one of your stories falls apart, you fall back to accusing your critics of being stunted in some way. Get a new act.

Quote:
...in any case I had a lot of other messages....
No Gish gallop. Stay on target.
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Old Today, 07:13 AM   #654
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
...I am pretty sure I did. If I left out such a detail it was because I did not expect to be called out on it.
Well, you mentioned it now and so now you're being called out on it. Either explain why you think the hospital would have been unable to rig up a makeshift oxygen tent such as the one my source describes, or think very hard to whether you're unconsciously adding detail to the story and adjust your expectations accordingly.

Also, explain why your mother is variously talkative about her pregnancy. She seems to be either completely reticent about it or suitably garrulous depending on the needs of the story.

You recount this story variously to have skeptics explain it or to rub in their faces their supposed inability to do so, and their lack of faith. Our making sure the details add up is part of your decision to perform it here. So get with it.
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Old Today, 07:29 AM   #655
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But don't forget there was no NHS, lots of people couldn't afford proper medical care, add in the state of medicine back then and it is entirely consistent with babies and children dying for want of basic health care so I don't find that part implausible on the surface.
Not on the surface so much as in the particular depths that Scorpion plumbed. I can believe quite easily that a civilian hospital in wartime was chronically short of supplies and equipment. I just can't believe that an oxygen tent is so irreplaceable as to be the nominal cause of losing a patient. All it does is create a zone of higher oxygen concentration around the patient by preventing added oxygen from wafting away. There's really not even any appreciable pressure differential -- and in any case you don't want the tent to be perfectly airtight because the carbon dioxide has to be removed. This is generally achieved by letting the oxygen injection constantly replace the atmosphere contained in the tent.

As I said before, a bedsheet soaked in water and kept wet will perform quite well. It would be little different that the "croup tents" I rigged up as a teenager for my younger siblings. This is something I would expect from doctors and nurses accustomed to shortages and thus forced chronically to improvise. That an infant died under care during wartime for want of some medical necessity is not implausible. But specifically because an oxygen tent was lacking? No. I'm not buying it.
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Old Today, 08:48 AM   #656
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Here you go:
Thanks very much for going to the trouble. It would have taken me ages to find that.
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If you recall Scorpion has now disowned Silver Birch....
No. I disowned White Eagle, but I still hold out hope for Silver Birch. The only thing I said about him was I have not read all the books of his teachings, so I cannot pass judgement on him.


Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What does it say on his death certificate?
I have no idea, I never saw it.
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Old Today, 08:48 AM   #657
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Nope. Do not apologise at all. I lost the faith 35+ years ago, yet still from time to time those ingrained superstitions raise their ugly heads. If it is beaten into you as a child, it is not an easy thing to rid oneself of it. One does not simply decide to be an atheist and that is the end of it. There is accumulated baggage.
This is so true! I experience the same thing sometimes. It will probably never fully go away from the back of my mind, even if I live 100 years, because that religious lens was placed upon my perceptions when I learned about the world itself. Inextricable, on some level.

I just have to break out my logic katana whenever the old superstitions flare up.
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Old Today, 08:50 AM   #658
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Not on the surface so much as in the particular depths that Scorpion plumbed. I can believe quite easily that a civilian hospital in wartime was chronically short of supplies and equipment. I just can't believe that an oxygen tent is so irreplaceable as to be the nominal cause of losing a patient. All it does is create a zone of higher oxygen concentration around the patient by preventing added oxygen from wafting away. There's really not even any appreciable pressure differential -- and in any case you don't want the tent to be perfectly airtight because the carbon dioxide has to be removed. This is generally achieved by letting the oxygen injection constantly replace the atmosphere contained in the tent.

As I said before, a bedsheet soaked in water and kept wet will perform quite well. It would be little different that the "croup tents" I rigged up as a teenager for my younger siblings. This is something I would expect from doctors and nurses accustomed to shortages and thus forced chronically to improvise. That an infant died under care during wartime for want of some medical necessity is not implausible. But specifically because an oxygen tent was lacking? No. I'm not buying it.
That's what my mother said, and she should know.
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Old Today, 09:18 AM   #659
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
That's what my mother said, and she should know.
No, you don't get to blame your dead mother for plot holes in your story. You're claiming your infant older brother died for want of an trivially-improvised piece of equipment. You seem entirely uninterested in exploring that errant detail, whatever it may imply.

Here we are trying to help AmyW develop her critical thinking skills so that she can avoid being taken in by self-proclaimed mediums. And in the middle of that, you plop yourself down and tell your own medium story for the umpteenth time, the subtext (as always) being, "Here's a true medium story the skeptics can't explain."

You tell us you never change the details in the story. That's an invitation to nit-pick. But then you try to shame your critics when they do what you suggested they do. You decorate the basic story with details to make it seem like a real story, but then display no interest when those details seem absurd or contradictory. Since your thinly-veiled goal is to stump the skeptics, you don't get to sidestep the problems they find. When you spectacularly evade scrutiny, we don't have to accept your version of the events as the indisputable truth you claim it must be
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Old Today, 09:20 AM   #660
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have no idea, I never saw it.
That would have been the first thing I did after learning I had an older brother who died in infancy, especially if it had been the subject of a psychic reading. I would definitely have wanted to know for sure what information was available publicly before claiming that someone had discovered it by clairvoyance.
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Old Today, 09:26 AM   #661
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
That would have been the first thing I did after learning I had an older brother who died in infancy, especially if it had been the subject of a psychic reading. I would definitely have wanted to know for sure what information was available publicly before claiming that someone had discovered it by clairvoyance.
So how do I find a copy of my brothers death certificate?
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old Today, 09:27 AM   #662
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
So how do I find a copy of my brothers death certificate?
Agatha already told you.
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Old Today, 09:28 AM   #663
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Old Today, 09:31 AM   #664
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
So how do I find a copy of my brothers death certificate?
Ask a medium?
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Old Today, 12:47 PM   #665
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
Apology accepted, with thanks.

For the record, I don't thing AmyW is deliberately behaving dishonestly; I think she is fighting very hard to let go of her previous belief in mediums.

Her return to the old belief is rather like probing at a sore tooth, or for a better analogy, at the socket from which the tooth has been extracted.



ETA, perhaps an even better analogy is the believer who deconverts, no longer believes in the Christian god, but can't shake the fear of hell.
You have hit the nail on the head! I am trying to release all of the past I had learnt about, I want to learn. I feel empowered being a disbeliever and trust me I am trying to let go, I just have bouts of fear from time to time, yes of god etc etc.
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