Moneymakin'! The BFRO Bigfoot Expeditions Thread.

[manofthesea]

Originally Posted by kitakaze

There going to find some Bigfoot activity.
.

I know your misspelling on porpoise, but it'd fe bunnier if you used their occasionally.

[LONGTABBER PE]

They locked that thread pretty quick now didnt they?

[manofthesea]

Originally Posted by tube

I have to wonder how many people willing to shell out money to go on a BFRO "expedition" are familiar with the Sonoma scandal.

An excerpt from the Penn and Teller expose' found here on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3BvR6pW-pQ

.

I'm guessing that Biscardi is supposebly A-hole 1
and that MM is supposed to be A-hole 2 then. Is that correct? Otherwise why post that in the Bfor thread. If so, I wouldn't try to put any blame on MM for trying to acquire any possible footage. That's part of investigation. It would then expose the perps to fraud charges if it was faked. No wonder they used the term a hole. Nothing like getting stung pulling a sting.

I don't find they're type of entertainment amusing. But now being familiar with that type of attitude I am now wondering what there screen names hear are.

One interesting thing did strike in that utube vid., the science guy stated that apes don't swing their arms when they walk. They dont' usually walk upright either. So, is he stating that a real bigfoot woodn't swing his arms when he walked opposed to us humans who do, assuming proper motor skills. (I'm trying to imagine how they'd walk now and I'm only picturing that Simmons guy flailing his arms around.) I'm thinking that science guy was told by PT of its fakery and his professed analysis was not really thought out, which would only lead me to also believe that he was initially fooled.

[tube]

[quote=manofthesea;4254170]I'm guessing that Biscardi is supposebly A-hole 1
and that MM is supposed to be A-hole 2 then. Is that correct? Otherwise why post that in the Bfor thread. If so, I wouldn't try to put any blame on MM for trying to acquire any possible footage.[quote]

Sorry, I don't know what you know, so please forgive me for telling you things you may already know. Long before Penn and Teller publicly exposed the footage as fake, John Freitas did a thorough investigation of "Mark Nelson" and his claims. A good account of that is found here:

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/hoa...ma_footage.htm

I've met Freitas personally, and I'm impressed by the guy. I spoke with him at some length at the Pocatello conference. Freitas had strong evidence that the "Sonoma" video was a hoax, and said so publicly. His reasoning was sound.

Moneymaker publicly attacks Freitas viciously. Clearly the truth threatens a potential "moneymaker" for the BFRO.

The BFRO had a long webpage up at the time, defending the "Sonoma" video, and attacking Freitas.

I remember being on the Internet when the news broke about Penn and Teller being behind the Sonoma video. WITHIN AN HOUR the BFRO's webpage had been taken down!!!

That's a cover-up worthy of Richard Nixon. Obviously total vindication for Freitas. Thankfully Wolftrax had taken screen-shots of the BFRO's webpage, and of course there are other historical resources to prove that the BFRO did this.

This incident alone is why I consider Matt Moneymaker a complete and total sleazebag.

[Just Reading]

I had totally forgotten about the Sonoma video. Thank you for the info.

If MM was previously fooled about that video, why is he so critical of Coleman for falling for the Georgia video?

[Just Reading]

I hesitated to mention this, not because of this board but because of MM - but I attended an expedition years ago. MM spent most of the time either sleeping or downing Red Bull. As someone with a teaching background, he reminded me of a kid with ADHD. I also noticed that MM did not discourage attendees from suggesting that every little sound in the forest was a bigfoot.

[tube]

We need to keep in mind how fast the Internet has changed certain things. Remember, the Sonoma video was released just a few months after YouTube was created.

The "Manitoba" footage was released about 3 months after YouTube was created. Obviously it took a bit of time before YouTube became as popular as it has.

Presented today on YouTube, neither of these videos would probably even get a mention on Cryptomundo, a site where monsters like "Fence Fiends" are news...

The quality of the Sonoma video was terrible from the get-go, and only began to be taken seriously because it was promoted by the BFRO. Based on Penn and Teller's "backstory" it's clear that the BFRO saw MONEY could be made, even with such poor footage.

This is the same bunch that promotes an asinine "pancake eating" video as that of Bigfoot.

Moneymaker could just as well be conducting seances or leading ghost hunts.

[manofthesea]

Originally Posted by tube

We need to keep in mind how fast the Internet has changed certain things. Remember, the Sonoma video was released just a few months after YouTube was created.


The quality of the Sonoma video was terrible from the get-go, and only began to be taken seriously because it was promoted by the BFRO. Based on Penn and Teller's "backstory" it's clear that the BFRO saw MONEY could be made, even with such poor footage.



Moneymaker could just as well be conducting seances or leading ghost hunts.

That is interesting. And thanks for the information.

A bit off topic, but how would you compare the Sonoma 'creature' to that of the PGF creature? I think PT filmed the 'creature' in those circumstances intentionally, ie. briefly, out of focus, etc. knowing that those conditions are what has kept the PGF creature such a mystery. (The arm swing did seem exagerated.)

[manofthesea]

Originally Posted by tube

This is the same bunch that promotes an asinine "pancake eating" video as that of Bigfoot.

.

OT post. I saw mention at BFF (before I was banned ((I think)) for my latest spat with dear Ray) that there is a high quality version of the pancake video coming out in the near future, and that it could be the new defining evidence needed to help prove the existence of bigfoot.

[Dfoot]

Just wondering if anyone knew where any good BFRO camera traps were being set up in California... you know? So I can avoid them while prancing in my Bigfoot suit.

I don't want to risk having anyone go on television to investigate pics of me acting all ape-like in front of a camera. That would be ... embarrassing.

- Mr. Pickens

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally Posted by manofthesea

......there is a high quality version of the pancake video coming out in the near future, and that it could be the new defining evidence needed to help prove the existence of bigfoot.

A high quality version of the pancake video ?

Does that really break anyone else' funnybone, or is it just me?

[kitakaze]

Originally Posted by manofthesea

Originally Posted by kitakaze

Just think of somebody like MOTS in the woods. There going to find some Bigfoot activity.

I know your misspelling on porpoise, but it'd fe bunnier if you used their occasionally.

Thank you, MOTS, for attempting to assist me with my spelling. I try to keep it sharp but I'm not immune to the occassional there/their/they're, were/we're, your/you're flub. Sometimes I ommit a comma or even a word. I'm a loose cannon, I understand.

In this case we both messed up. I typed "there" and you suggested "their." Actually, if you read the sentence, you can see that "they're" is what was correct.

ETA:

Originally Posted by manofthesea

I don't find they're type of entertainment amusing. But now being familiar with that type of attitude I am now wondering what there screen names hear are.

I bet I've done that one, too.

[manofthesea]

Originally Posted by kitakaze

Thank you, MOTS, for attempting to assist me with my spelling. I try to keep it sharp but I'm not immune to the occassional there/their/they're, were/we're, your/you're flub. Sometimes I ommit a comma or even a word. I'm a loose cannon, I understand.

In this case we both messed up. I typed "there" and you suggested "their." Actually, if you read the sentence, you can see that "they're" is what was correct.

ETA:



I bet I've done that one, too.

My earlier accusation of you being an English teacher stands. I misspelled 'supposebly' and 'woodn't' and misused they're and there. You've apparently missed those.

[manofthesea]

But getting back off topic, you've asked my opinion on the pancake video. I haven't seen it, nor any of the other popular videos. But I recently mentioned that thur was a better quality pancake dvd coming out soon that will just make you choke on any whale sashimi you may have happened to ingest at the time of viewing.

ETA: sashimi is what rednecks call sushi. Sushi is a conglomeration of goodies stuffed in rice and usually wrapped in seaweed.

[kitakaze]

Originally Posted by manofthesea

My earlier accusation of you being an English teacher stands. I misspelled 'supposebly' and 'woodn't' and misused they're and there. You've apparently missed those.

What an accusation. "You're an English teacher!" Sorry, MOTS, you'd be wrong. I've stated my profession here before and it certainly isn't up for discussion with you. If I wanted to hump your leg in frustration with spelling errors, I'd need a cod piece lest I knock myself sterile. Talk to me about BFRO expeditions here or don't talk to me at all.

[manofthesea]

Originally Posted by kitakaze

What an accusation. "You're an English teacher!" Sorry, MOTS, you'd be wrong. I've stated my profession here before and it certainly isn't up for discussion with you. If I wanted to hump your leg in frustration with spelling errors, I'd need a cod piece lest I knock myself sterile. Talk to me about BFRO expeditions here or don't talk to me at all.

Okay Mr. ESL. C'mon, a Canadian teaching science in Japan. (I think I just p'd a little on myself)

[kitakaze]

Very interesting. The BFRO has just posted their expedition schedule for 2009. In keeping with the trend that I noted in the OP, this year shows a significant increase in expeditions, 26 listed to last year's 18:

http://bfro.net/news/roundup/exped_next.asp

Some speculative math. 29 expeditions X 30 participants at $300 per person = $261,000.00. That's just a crude estimate. With financial backing by a multi-millionaire and that kind of capital to look forward to, is it unreasonable to be unimpressed with the BFRO pulling lint out of its Bigfoot evidence pockets?

[kitakaze]

So Moneymaker has a fit and calls on fellow BFRO members at his discussion board to help him with "anti-BFRO propaganda" with particular reference to the BFF. BFF admins start showing up and he closes the thread quick and moves it with this post:

Originally Posted by Navigator/Matthew Moneymaker

Posted: December 8th, 2008 12:40 AM

For those of you who wonder where the threads went mentioning the bogus propaganda on the Internet regarding BFRO expeditions -- those threads have been move to the Old Threads section for future reference.

And just so the rest of you understand why I react so strongly about that bogus propaganda on the Interent: If I don't do that, and do it that way, no one will talk about it on those outside forums, and no one will remember it.

If they don't talk about it, and they don't remember it, then I might as well not have said it at all.

Thanks for listening. I'm sure you'll remember it now.

MM

http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/thread....readid=1977994

Does anybody know what he just said?

Here's where they moved it:

http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/forum.php?forumid=125147

[LONGTABBER PE]

So now Bipto is leading the anti-BFRO charge by conveying threats to keep people from going on expeditions?

Where did he post them?

[Drewbot]

Remember when Randi took on Uri Gellar?

Why doesn't he take on the BFRO? It seems to be right up his alley.

[kitakaze]

Originally Posted by Drewbot

Remember when Randi took on Uri Gellar?

Why doesn't he take on the BFRO? It seems to be right up his alley.

Bigfoot, I think, is like a fart joke for Randi - good for a cheap laugh. People like Gellar, Sylvia, John Edward, and Jim Callahan type retards are way higher on the list of people who have it coming for him.

[kitakaze]

Originally Posted by LONGTABBER PE

So now Bipto is leading the anti-BFRO charge by conveying threats to keep people from going on expeditions?

Where did he post them?

Did I miss something? What are you referring to? BTW, Moneymaker zapped his gobbledygook post I linked. Looks like he's trying to sweep it away.

[Correa Neto]

Originally Posted by Drewbot

Remember when Randi took on Uri Gellar?

Why doesn't he take on the BFRO? It seems to be right up his alley.

Sorry, but except for what seems to be a minority, bigfeet are not seen as a paranormal claim.

Historian could qualify for the U$ 1m challenge by summoning telepathic interdimensional "invisiable" bigfeet and littel people. The scam of a paid expedition to see a real, flesh-n'-bones-unknown-to-science-giant-bipedal-North-American-ape would not.

[mikeyx]

Originally Posted by kitakaze

Did I miss something? What are you referring to? BTW, Moneymaker zapped his gobbledygook post I linked. Looks like he's trying to sweep it away.

the intent seems to be little more than a troll, to provoke reaction and then he dumps the thread. Given the attention seeking angle, anyone else find it timely he posts the 2009 expedition schedule a few days later?

[kitakaze]

Originally Posted by mikeyx

the intent seems to be little more than a troll, to provoke reaction and then he dumps the thread. Given the attention seeking angle, anyone else find it timely he posts the 2009 expedition schedule a few days later?

I'm not sure what longtabber was referring to with Bipto and anti-BFRO threats. I certainly agree with you about Moneymaker's timing. He strikes me as a no-such-thing-as-bad-press type of guy. Looks like he decided to start a flurry of activity for some pre-buzz.

Time for my absolute favourite Bigfootery picture (which just happens to be of Matt Moneymaker dialing up some sasquatches):



And my favourite Moneymaker quote from his impressive Fox News interview (from a previous post of mine):

Originally Posted by kitakaze

Here's an entertaining Fox News interview with Bigfoot Field Researchers Organization head Matt Moneymaker in which he discusses the difficulty of obtaining photos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJj6X27f4Mk

My favourite part at 1:05:

Quote:

Fox's Bill Hemmer: "If you had good stuff, Matt, you could really rid the world of a lot of doubt."

Matt Moneymaker: "We have really good stuff and that's what we're shooting for."

BH: "And when are you planning to unveil this really good stuff?"

MM: "We don't have really good stuff yet. (laughter in background) I said that we have stuff, it's not really good."

Talking to Bigfoot enthusiasts can be hard to follow sometimes.

[rockinkt]

Originally Posted by tube

Moneymaker publicly attacks Freitas viciously. Clearly the truth threatens a potential "moneymaker" for the BFRO.

Freitas did a good job with the Sonoma video investigation -but his motives may not have been pure.

Don't forget that Freitas had his own little Bigfoot expedition thing going.
Attacking Moneymaker was good for Freitas' business.

As the self-proclaimed "Inventor of Bigfoot Calling" - Freitas had his own site and was advertising for people to pay to go on expeditions where he would "call in" squatches by broadcasting purported Bigfoot recordings. He claimed a lot of success.

I called Freitas on his false advertising and the fact that he was using a discredited "blobsquatch" photo on his site to obviously promote his business.
He first threatened a lawsuit a la Moneymaker, and then tried to do the old "brotherhood of cops" crap to get me to stop pointing out his scam.

Freitas and Moneymaker are of the same ilk. IMHO, of course.

[kitakaze]

While it is my opinion based on the research I've done that the BFRO does engage in created events during some of its expeditions, I think it's important to bear in mind what longtabber has pointed out concerning evidence of scamming. I do not have hard, irrefutable, reliable evidence that the BFRO are engaging in activity on expeditions to influence people to think they've encountered Bigfoots. It takes so little and you're dealing with many people who are very soft targets, willing to believe, that achieving your goals would be very easy with minimum effort that would be very hard to catch.

Let's put aside a moment the issue of alleged scamming and examine the expeditions themselves, their legitimacy, and their value. First let's look to the BFF's thread I'm game...Has anyone ever attended a BFRO expedition?
and the testimony of some BFRO expedition attendees who answered Matt Moneymaker's call:

blueboy says:

Quote:

Yes, my wife and I and children have been on many BFRO expeditions. We enjoy them and we meet alot of great people. And have formed some great relationships thru the past years. We find them very informative, and on occassions have experience with others, some sightings and experiences. We have found foot prints with toes, we have heard vocalizations (many different kinds) " and just not from Bigfoot/sasquatches"

The best part of going on a BFRO expedition "campout" is the many people and relationships that we have formed. With the information that we have learned from these outings, and we are glad to be able to share it on this forum with you great folks.

blueboy

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.p...dpost&p=503993

Blueboy refers to sightings that have allegedly occurred though it doesn't seem clear if he is definitely claiming that. He speaks of is the social aspect of meeting people and learning new things.

Sneeky says:

Quote:

I have been on several and have enjoyed everyone. I think the best part of a BFRO expedition is the amount of knowledge represented at each one. Even though everyone doesn't agree, they all have valuable input and experiences to share. Also, the things I learn on BFRO expeditions I use on my private expeditions and they have produced results. I would recommend trying one out for yourself. Like most things in life, it is best to make your own, informed decision instead of taking the word of someone sitting in their basement typing on a computer, and I mean not taking the word of people on both side of the BFRO debate, pro or con.

Todd in Utah
"Take joy in the journey."

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.p...dpost&p=504010

A mention of the social aspect with the emphasis on information learned. It does, of course, beg the question of the results produced that Todd refers to. Todd advocates making an informed decision. The question that occurs to me is whether or not one can make an informed decision about giving $300 to the BFRO to join an expedition without doing it once. For many people $300 dollars is a lot of money, particularly now.

This from regular BFF member Painthorse:

Quote:

I had always been curious about how the bfro operated and when I accidentally came upon the opportunity to experience it for myself I invited a group doing an expedition locally to my property. In all fairness, at least during my experience the group was well organized and worked well together. Also many people interested in this field just can't afford the "expensive toys" like the thermals that were being used.
I am not bfro, this is not a plug for the bfro, only what I experienced.

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.p...dpost&p=504016

That seems like a good point. You pay $300 dollars, you get to go camping with an organization that has lots of hi-tech toys to play with. The question is then whether or not that expense is worth it and what kind of hi-tech toys a person interested in getting out in the woods looking for Bigfoot could get into starting at $300.

Here is the Tools and Equipment subforum of the BFF, Technology and Tools subforum at Bigfootdiscussions, and the Equipment section of the Alliance of Independant Bigfoot Researchers forum to help people get started examining that question.

In response to blueboy's testimony BFF regualr eldonkey says:

Quote:

As a past attendee, I would agree with this analysis. It is very much a social event, and not as much of an organized research effort. I met a quite a few great, honest folks on the expo we went on, but in the final analysis, when it came to fulfilling the purpose of finding evidence of BF's existence, it fell way short.

I would save the $300-400 dollars and put the money to field equipment. You could just as easily put together a crew of 6-8 folks from your local area for free, and have a much more effective time out in the field.

Somehow, I don't see a caravan of 14 vehicles driving for hours through the thick back country of Arizona at 2:00 in the morning as the most effective way of finding BF's, opr any other creatures, for that matter. But that is what essentially my $400 bucks got me. That and the opportunity to see actual footprint casts, and of course, the privelage to work with "top notch " BF investigator Matt Moneymaker.

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.p...dpost&p=504405

Eldonkey refers to the positive social aspect, the chance to see casts, but an overall waste of money in terms of searching for Bigfoot.

BFF regular COGrizzly speaks of a friend who joined a BFRO Wisconsin expedition:

Quote:

Great posts everyone.

I have nothing against the Beefro. There are some good people there. However, in my opinion, it seems they are out to make money and here is why I say that.

I have not been on a Beefro Ex. I was invited to "join in" last minute, at one point in time, no charge, but had previous plans. I also did not agree with the area they checked out at that time of year. And with that said...

My old roommate from MPLS and good friend did attend a WISCO Ex. Upon return, he was very disapointed and felt that he wasted his money. He said they were hearing coyote howls and members of the Beefro were saying they were bf. Long and short is that he came back very disappointed. He mentioned that he probably was the most experienced camper/outdoorsman out there. Perhaps these expeditions are good for the novice?
That's just one story. Maybe other experiences are much better.

Nothing wrong with making money, unless you are being misleading. They do have some equipment I would never buy.

An experienced outdoorsman dissatisfied with BFRO members interpetting coyote as Bigfoot. This is certainly not the first time we've heard of footers doing this. The interesting point that CO raises is about there being nothing wrong with making money as long as your not being misleading. We'll have a good look at whether or not the BFRO is being misleading but first one more comment on a different board from another friend of an outdoorsman that attended a BFRO expedition. Rastaman says:

Quote:

Awhile back I was talking to someone who attended last years Vancouver Island expedition and they were not too impressed with it. This person was a hunter and an all around experienced outdoorsman and saw it only as a good experience for someone with little knowledge of the outdoors and whats out there, and felt he good do better on his own.

If the BFRO don't even have any good concrete photo evidence up to now after numerous expeditions, then what's that telling you about the success of these expeditions? I believe anyone walking in the woods might get good or even better photo evidence themselves in a well chosen area without any help from the BFRO.

Some believe the BFRO may possibly even be planting people in the woods during these expeditions to spice up and gain more interest in their expeditions. Who knows?

http://grandcherokee.proboards26.com...83&page=1#1413

Speculations of scamming aside, rastaman does raise a good point. BFRO has been doing these expeditions for a long time now. Where's the beef? I've already posted on the BFRO's excuses about focusing efforts on a specific area and the also the idea of habitiuation. What you will often here is talk about the BFRO having evidence which it does not release to the public. In the Fox News interview with Moneymaker I linked to in my previous post Moneymaker alludes to it. What does Moneymaker have to say about the evidence they've come up with from these expeditions and the idead of it being withheld? Well, in counter to what he said on Fox, he had this to say at his thread calling for help with "anti-BFRO propaganda.":

Originally Posted by Matt Moneymaker/Navigator

BTW, the answer to that question is:

NO, we do not withhold any evidence that is owned or controlled by the BFRO.

Do we withhold other people's evidence?

No, not really. We are not "withholding" anything that we have the right to disclose ...

However, as you might expect, some things are shared with us in confidence. We can't do much about that, unless we want to make sure that no one ever shares anything with us again ...

We have certainly talked about stuff we don't control, publicly, at risk of not hearing further updates about it. We've disclosed a lot more than we were authorized to do ... but somehow that gets distorted by frustrated people who think we're keeping it from them, just because we're disclosing a preview.

Do we publish GPS coordiantes of the places we are going, or the places we have been, or the places might return to in the field ??

Answer: NO, of course not ... And coincidentally, no one else does either ... Well, I should say, no one who actually goes in the field ...

This guy popping up with his own ignorant answer for the misleading question of why the BFRO withholds evidence ... is exactly the kind of thing that happens on those outside forums. It is the sort of thing you all need to be vigilant about, and contest it whenever you see it, even if it is obviously just a troll.

Where it started is not as important as where it is going. We all know now where it started, but we don't know where it is going.

By the way, the owner of BigfootForums.com -- the despicable Brian "Bipto" Brown in Minnesota (the most rabidly envious BFRO-hater of all) -- has recently communicated a threat to do more of this -- discourage people from attending BFRO expeditions. Bipto has, of course, never attended a BFRO expedition.


(Edited by Navigator)

Hey, there's the Bipto info I was wondering about.

So Moneymaker says they aren't really withholding anything in contradiction with saying that they do on Fox and what his own website says:

Quote:

There are some photos/footage of bigfoots which have not been released publicly, and there are ongoing efforts to obtain more and better photos/footage at those same locations.

http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/thread....readid=1652357

Luckily we have BFRO forum admin PBYodeler to help us find out what some of this evidence the BFRO has is:

Originally Posted by PBYodeler

Have you not looked at the Pam Lovins footage? Or even the Don Young thermal footage? How about the Jacobs photos? Who told you we were withholding all of our evidence from the public? If you're going to make accusations then back them up with some proof. Don't just tell us that you "heard it" somewhere. That's the kind of rumors that Navigator is asking for help with.

I note that Yodeler didn't refute that the BFRO withholds evidence but rather that they withhold all of it. So what is this evidence that Yodeler is talking about? He isn't being helpful with any links so we're left to hunt for it ourselves. Let's see what we come up with. The Jacobs photos are of course the Pennsylvania trailcam photos of a mangey bear that the BFRO keeps on there front page. Now follows the reference to a Pam Lovins footage and a Don Young thermal footage. The BFRO database reports on those can be found respectively here:

http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=24674

http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=24265

What you will note right away is that while they are available to the public, there is the slight hiccup of being required to make an account at the BFRO's discussion board which will give them access to personal information of yours such as your e-mail address and IP address. "What's the big deal?" you might say. The big deal is that now Moneymaker has your personal info. If you disagree with the quality of that evidence and venture to voice your opinion in a format that Moneymaker can not control you have just opened yourself to harrassment and legal threats by him. What many people are not aware of is that Moneymaker has J.D. degree in law (not a lawyer, he has not passed the bar exam) and is infamous for threatening litigation against those that are critical of his Bigfoot ventures. The following is a detailed news article on Moneymaker, how he got into Bigfoot, his legal training, and his claimed Bigfoot sighting:

http://www.ocregister.com/news/bigfo...ld-researchers

Here are some examples of Moneymaker's litigous legal threats:

http://www.cryptomundo.com/bigfoot-report/lawsuit2/

http://www.angelfire.com/biz/bigfootcentral/

I have a far better and more graphic example of threatening behaviour by Moneymaker that I will discuss once I have permission to do so. When Matt Moneymaker does not have your personal information and he wishes to get at you for being critical of his Bigfoot ventures he will enlist help from the BFRO's discussion board to get to you. Here is a prime example of that:

http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/thread....readid=1977901

To be fair, the criticisms came from another rival Bigfoot organization called the North Easter Sasquatch Researchers Association. Here is their website:

http://www.teamnesra.net/drupal/

And expeditions page:

http://teamnesra.net/drupal/?q=taxonomy/term/4

It is understandable that Moneymaker felt threatened by criticisms from an organization conducting expeditions without the exorbitant fees charged by the BFRO.

So now let us re-examine whether or not the BFRO misleads prospective expedition attendees. First, another look at the youtube commercial for the BFRO's expeditions:

Come Along With Us.

This commercial is very specific about emphasizing coming in contact with Bigfoot rather than the social networking aspect. Then there is the statement in my op in which the BFRO gives high statistical odd of encountering Bigfoot in some fashion. What is unfortunate is that the organization passes themselves of as scientific (they used to say they were the only scientific organization exploring the question of Bigfoot until they got too much heat particularly after the exodus of BFRO members started).

So where does that leave a person interested in Bigfoot expeditions? Does one need to spend $300? Not at all. If you are interested in meeting some people with interests in Bigfoot, maybe get a chance to play with some tech, see some casts, and listening to the opinions of people who consider themselves knowledgable about Bigfoot then go ahead. You can get all of these things without spending hundreds of dollars and just a little research on the internet. There are communities of Bigfoot enthusiasts all over the continent that are more than eager to welcome new members and organize activities

Here is the most important thing to remember, that person who thinks they are knowledgable about Bigfoot knows no more than you do. There is not one single stitch of reliable evidence to support their claims. Bigfoot very likely does not exist. Everything that we have seen to date is completely what we would expect with a social construct just like UFOs and the like. Going out with some friends camping is just will not leave you in a worse position than Moneymaker and his BFRO in terms of available reliable evidence of Bigfoot.

I think it best to finish this post with the following. An interview between Matt Moneymaker and George Noory so Moneymaker can speak for himself on his organization and his expeditions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRUaq...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aruqh...eature=related

And this quote from him:

Quote:

The purpose of the expeditions has NEVER been to make the expeditions more popular, but rather to refine the methods for finding these animals, and refine the techniques for filming and recording animals at night without any kind of artificial illumination.

2008 - 18 Scheduled expeditons.

2009 - 26 Scheduled expeditions.

@#$% to show for it with reliable evidence.

[kitakaze]

Something from the BFRO's expedition FAQ section with excuses about focusing on a particular area:

Quote:

Q: If you are finding good evidence in one area, why go somewhere else? Why not focus your attention and expeditions there?

A: We do and we don't. The people who come on the expeditions can focus on the target areas after the expedition if they choose. Some do, and become part of a regional BFRO chapter.

We don't focus all of our attention on one location. That would be unwise. Among the most important things we are learning from these expeditions is the range of their habitats, and the commonalities of the evidence and behavior in these different habitats.

We are better, by a very wide margin, than any other group or collective ever has been, at getting close to these animals, mainly because we've explored so many different habitat areas across the continent and compared notes. If we had not done that we would know only a small fraction of what we know about this species.

We have observed and experienced things that indicate patterns of behavior, patterns that are consistent enough to anticipate in other habitat areas. We think it is very important to see if those same patterns exist in other areas, and how they may vary.

Re the part where the BFRO is posturing by saying how much better they are... Dude, WTF? How stupid do they think people are? BFRO, why don't you prove this sasquatch prowess you speak of? You know what? I say the MABRC wild bunch slays you guys. Your high stats don't impress me. The MABRC focus on one area and encounter Bigfoots left, right, and center.

What does the BFRO offer as proof of their mad skills? "If we had not done that we would know only a small fraction of what we know about this species." What do you guys think you know? What's your edge? That Bigfoots will go in 4x4 mode? The MABRC told us that already. What ever this edge is you guys think you have, it hasn't done very much for you, has it? Really, isn't that what having an edge is supposed to accomplish.

The BFRO does deserve credit for coming up with a whole lot of nothing before the MABRC did so things aren't all bad.

[Cuddles]

Originally Posted by kitakaze

Blueboy refers to sightings that have allegedly occurred though it doesn't seem clear if he is definitely claiming that. He speaks of is the social aspect of meeting people and learning new things.

Well, I suspect it's not what he really meant, but what he actually said was:

Originally Posted by kitakaze

some sightings and experiences. We have found foot prints with toes, we have heard vocalizations (many different kinds) " and just not from Bigfoot/sasquatches

Which is entirely true. I'm sure they have found footprints and heard calls that weren't from bigfoot.

Originally Posted by kitakaze

"If we had not done that we would know only a small fraction of what we know about this species."

Again, you can't really argue with this. If they hadn't done that, they would know only a small fraction of nothing.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Originally Posted by kitakaze

I'm not sure what longtabber was referring to with Bipto and anti-BFRO threats. I certainly agree with you about Moneymaker's timing. He strikes me as a no-such-thing-as-bad-press type of guy. Looks like he decided to start a flurry of activity for some pre-buzz.

There was a post by him in the thread under the locked one ( now gone- or at least I cant find it again- should done a screenshot)

He used his name, called him "dispicable" ( I believe was the word he used) and said he had knowledge Bipto was going to do it again ( or words to that effect)

[kitakaze]

Thanks, Longtabber. It's actually there in the gargantuan post I made a few up. Bottom of the big quote in the middle of MM. I linked it too.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Thats what happens when one makes a pre coffee post without completely reading a thread.

I would love to hear your information about other threats when you get permission.

[LONGTABBER PE]

http://bigfootdiscussions.invisionzo...opic=3158&st=0

KK, you might find the comments interesting if you havent seen them already

[kitakaze]

Thanks, Longtabber. I have seen that. I found your and Jim Flowers comments to be the most interesting.

[kitakaze]

In the BFF thread "I'm game... Has anybody attended a BFRO expedition" that I quoted testimony there is some new tesimony that I think is typical of the type of people and situations that will result in gushing support for those expeditions.

First I will post just the beginning of the testimony (for space) and give a link to the full text.

Jay says:

Quote:

Yes I went on my first and soo far only BFRO trip this summer and it was great! Absolutely frightening when things really got active, but absolutely incredible. I never set out to go on the trip, but after sending in several pictures of some tracks my wife and I found last March to get more experienced opinions, I was invited, it was one of the best things I've ever done. Many, many things happened on this trip and it was remarkable. More importantly, I was able to make many new friends and the chance to learn alot about these beings from people that have been doing this for many years.

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.p...dpost&p=504775

Jay goes on to speak of mainly of the social connections formed, but also the information he learned. He mentions it being a window to connections that eventually lead to another encounter. Jay mentions pictures that he sent to the BFRO that started his love of Bigfoot.

Here are two of those photos:

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.p...=post&id=32409

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.p...=post&id=32416

The problem with these photos is that though Jay later denies it, they are very clearly photos of a rabbit jumping movement through snow. Now Jay made mention of remarkable things happening on the expedition and after some prodding by others shares some of the details. I am going to post that account with parts that I think merit special attention in bold:

Quote:

Without going into too much detail to answer questions about my first BFRO expedition I can say alot happened. I arrived 11/2 days before everyone else and had strange things happen like a constant rythmic stick breaking noise that moved back and forth behind my camp for hours and which happened both before everyone showed and after and only stopped after we turned to look in the direction of the noise with night vision equipment. I had large rocks (bowling ball size)thrown at (or near, I think it intentionally missed) from at least 70 yards (the nearest tree line) in pitch black night which LANDED (not rolled) 8-10ft away, many screams, grunts, woodknocks, babbling, noises I had never heard in over 30 years of hunting and sheep herding and I listened as it followed us back to camp (crunching gravel, twigs snapping, etc) and it hit the man in front of me with a golfball sized rock between the shoulder blades missing my right ear by a couple inches in pitch black night that only our thermal scopes worked in and we got many incredible recordings from that night in our camp as well as having some strange things stolen that any hoaxer wouldn't want to steal, beleive me. Some of these recordings are posted online but I'm not sure if I'm supposed to post the site, nor am I sure I can tell much else about this trip and I have no desire to step on the toes of people I have great respect for and hope to continue to work with in this manner. If I find that I can tell more about this I will. Just trust what I say in that going on that BFRO trip was a once in a lifetime trip, I only wish my wife could have gone, maybe next summer.

Bowling ball sized rocks thrown 70 yards? Activity stops when tech is brought out? Crazy sounds and people hit by small rocks? Mundane thefts?

I submit that Jay willingly wants to believe in Bigfoot. I also submit that the activity reported can be easily explained by active imagination, encouragement by others, and created events.

[kitakaze]

If I'm not mistaken, Matt Moneymaker will no longer permit investigative journalists, reporters, press, etc to attend his expeditions. As I mentioned before, there is the upcoming Ghost Hunter type series being done with the BFRO.

One of the last times the BFRO had a reporter join an expedition was last year with the highly publicized Michigan Upper Peninsula expedition in Maquette County. Fox News journalist Griff Jenkins asked to join the expedition but was refused by Moneymaker. It was reported that Jenkins would not be allowed to attend because Moneymaker felt he was not a real journalist. This decision was reverse after the BFRO received negative publicity for the move. The decision was reversed and Jenkins allowed to attend:

http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/caws-noel/

Interestingly, from that cryptomumble link is a post by a former BFRO member Judaculla who made this comment:

Quote:

Matt has guaranteed that you will at least hear vocals (at least that was up on the website at one point).

What I find rather tell is what happened during and after the journalist's attendance. Jenkins reported of the trip:

Quote:

Andy and I were in the lead group with Pam, Eric and Don - all of whom have had numerous encounters with the beasts. Don recounted that after his first experience, he didn’t go near the woods for a few years… Can you blame him?

Shortly thereafter, Pam began to attempt to call one in… Her long, whooping scream added a whole new dimension to the evening. We even heard a few similar howlings, but most of the crew believed it came from Matt and his group. (Matt appears to be the only other tracker qualified to call them in besides Pam)
Griff’s Notes
0224 Thursday, July 12, 2007

Very interesting but wait, there's more. Luckily for paying participants and conveniently after Jenkins has departed a group of Bigfoots shows up:

Quote:

It would seem too that it was unfortunate we had to pull out as Pam had quite the experience - with 4 to 6 squatches late into the night!!
Griff’s Notes
1900 Sunday, July 15, 2007

I find that very interesting indeed.

[kitakaze]

In my giant earlier post I referenced a BFRO claim of Bigfoot evidence called the Don Young Thermal Footage. I also noted that to see it you would have to register at Matt Moneymaker's website, thereby making your email address and IP adress available to him. Looking further I found he requests your full name:

Originally Posted by Navigator/Matt Moneymaker

If you would like to post a message on this forum, you must introduce yourself first as a reply to this thread, so we can identify you.

The username you will create when you join this forum must be some form of your real name. An abbreviation of your real name cannot be your initials. There must be enough there to allow us to identify you uniquely.

I have found the Don Young Thermal Footage (skip to about 1:30 to see the action):


the first ever thermal image of bigfoot recorded by bfro.

The youtube description:

Quote:

opivyavailsublime
September 30, 2008

(more info)
(less info)

the first very quick thermal image caught on camera of bigfoot, sasquatch, wildman, Yeti, Almasti, Yeren, Yowie, Orang Kubu, Beruang Rambai, Orang Gadang, Zana, Ameranthropoides loysi, Mono Rei, Grey Man, rakshasa, meh-the, abominable snowman, Jangali Mosh, Barmanu, Chuchunaa, Yahoo, Great Hair Moehau, Orang Dalam, Orang Sanat, kapre, waray-waray, orang gugu, beruang rambai, batutut, atu, sedapa, mawa, Malay, Sedapa, Wookie, Momo, MacDhu, and Liath Mori.

But far better is I found skeptical analysis of it:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kpVDmfloHBk

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=W1M-gr...eature=related

It's excellent.

So all this money going onto the BFRO and, all these expeditions, all this tech and that is their first ever thermal image.

Wow.

[GT/CS]

Ah yes, the infamous, "Guy Takes Dump in Woods" video.

[kitakaze]

Originally Posted by GT/CS

Ah yes, the infamous, "Guy Takes Dump in Woods" video.

That would be a far better guess than Bigfoot, that's for sure. Those links I gave actually make a strong case for a deer.

[LTC8K6]

It's a person. The actions of the camera operator are enough for me. It's a hoax, imo.