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Tags BFRO , bigfoot , matt moneymaker , sasquatch

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Old 22nd August 2010, 11:59 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Manzer View Post
I have no clue about the Chiricahua Apache, you would have to ask them which seems pretty simple. They would know who their elders are or not. Email them?
Well, first, the Apache aren't really one group or tribe, and neither specifically is Chiricahua Apache. Though, if you were going to mail someone, it would be here...

http://www.chiricahuaapache.org/

It is besides the point, though, because we know what Gimlin's history has been, which is not a Chiricahua elder. That's a load of worship hooey that he may or may not have started or encouraged. We also know that he has told wildly divergent stories and have good reason to consider him less than honest about himself and what he has or hasn't done.
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Old 23rd August 2010, 09:27 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Manzer View Post
I can't remember where I read it, but I am pretty sure that Gimlin was a boxer in the army and that was his record while in the military. I think it was feather lightweight, but I don't know why that sticks in my mind.

I do know, since my daughter in law is part native american, that a lot of tribes consider you Indian if you are 1/16th. So 1/4th is a quite a bit.

Did you tell the truth when you told me that you have (had) no involvement in Bigfootery?
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Old 23rd August 2010, 10:19 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
...It is besides the point, though, because we know what Gimlin's history has been, which is not a Chiricahua elder. That's a load of worship hooey that he may or may not have started or encouraged. We also know that he has told wildly divergent stories and have good reason to consider him less than honest about himself and what he has or hasn't done.
Did Gimlin ever come clean about what really happened that one night at Fort Courage with Sergeant O'Rourke and Corporal Agarn? I don't think he did. No wait, that was the Hekawis...
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Old 25th August 2010, 11:43 AM   #164
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no, it was the Fagawis.
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Old 4th June 2013, 03:47 PM   #165
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<BUMP>

It seems to me we've been giving these particular lumps too much of a pass lately. I know we have the more timely Finding Bigfoot thread, but that's not BFRO proper as the main stooges are simply also BFRO. Here's the bumped lunacy. Caution: Written from a Squatch perspective.

So where exactly does Sylvia Brown¹ end and Matt Moneymaker start?


¹ - already has a rabid opponent base actively seeking her prosecution and incarceration for fraud and general scum bagginess.
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Old 5th June 2013, 12:24 AM   #166
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Matt is nothing like any of these mediums who exploit peoples grief for gain.

He isnt hurting anyone, and he isnt exploiting anyone. I personally think he believes there is a bigfoot, but he is one of those people who doesn't have a moral problem with "helping" others see the evidence. Its not exactly fraud, even if there might be someone in the woods knocking two sticks together every now and again. It isnt exactly honest either. But the people who go on his expeditions know what thy are getting and are happy to pay for it. Somebody who is all torn up and paying to hear what their dead mum has to say... Thats completely different (not that everyone who thinks or says they can speak to the dead goes about it the same way of course)
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Old 5th June 2013, 04:36 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Strange famous View Post
Matt is nothing like any of these mediums who exploit peoples grief for gain.

He isnt hurting anyone, and he isnt exploiting anyone. I personally think he believes there is a bigfoot, but he is one of those people who doesn't have a moral problem with "helping" others see the evidence. Its not exactly fraud, even if there might be someone in the woods knocking two sticks together every now and again. It isnt exactly honest either. But the people who go on his expeditions know what thy are getting and are happy to pay for it. Somebody who is all torn up and paying to hear what their dead mum has to say... Thats completely different (not that everyone who thinks or says they can speak to the dead goes about it the same way of course)
What about when some credulous nitwit goes shooting up a back-40 Moneymaker declared "squatchy?" If you know anything about bigfoot buffoonery these days, you know that the fervor to produce a type specimen (of a non-existent cryptid) is higher than ever. In fact there are a number of threads over at the Best Bigfoot Friends Forever debating the ethics, safety, etc. of bagging this boogeyman. Now who knows if any of those posting actually buy into this nonsense, but even a few of these jokers going afield armed, fueled by a dumb-ass TV show is frightening.

And he is exploiting the deluded.

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Old 5th June 2013, 05:53 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Strange famous View Post
Matt is nothing like any of these mediums who exploit peoples grief for gain.

He isnt hurting anyone, and he isnt exploiting anyone. I personally think he believes there is a bigfoot, but he is one of those people who doesn't have a moral problem with "helping" others see the evidence. Its not exactly fraud, even if there might be someone in the woods knocking two sticks together every now and again. It isnt exactly honest either. But the people who go on his expeditions know what thy are getting and are happy to pay for it. Somebody who is all torn up and paying to hear what their dead mum has to say... Thats completely different (not that everyone who thinks or says they can speak to the dead goes about it the same way of course)

The guy goes on television claiming there is bigfoot almost everywhere they go. How is it not fraudulent? The guy heads an organization that sells camping trips in which you can go bigfoot hunting. It's bigfoot. It's not deer, bear, or any real animal. What if I were to go around claiming dragons were in the woods and I yelled and screeched at them, even made a tv show about it, and sold camping trips. Would it be fraudulent? Or legit? Feel free to replace dragon with bigfoot.
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Old 5th June 2013, 08:12 AM   #169
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I fail to see what the emotional state of the victim of the fraud has to do with the criminality of the act.
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Old 5th June 2013, 09:55 AM   #170
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To whom are you responding?
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Old 5th June 2013, 10:08 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by GT/CS View Post
To whom are you responding?
X2
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Old 5th June 2013, 10:39 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by dmaker View Post
I fail to see what the emotional state of the victim of the fraud has to do with the criminality of the act.
I am talking about morality.

Moneymaker isn't hurting anybody. The people who go on his bigfoot hunts get exactly what they paid for and what they want. No exploitation is taking place.

These are consenting adults, and if they choose believe that the experience he offers is what they want, who are you to stop them? Maybe they are guys who just like being out in the woods but dont want to shoot things... I dont think its a bad thing.

I went on lots of "ghost hunts" with a mate and a couple of girls when I was a teenager. I dont think any of us were serious about investigating the paranormal.

And Moneymaker is a lawyer, I doubt very much any of what he does goes far enough to be criminal. It isn't againt the law to mislead people.
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Old 5th June 2013, 10:41 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by River View Post
The guy goes on television claiming there is bigfoot almost everywhere they go. How is it not fraudulent? The guy heads an organization that sells camping trips in which you can go bigfoot hunting. It's bigfoot. It's not deer, bear, or any real animal. What if I were to go around claiming dragons were in the woods and I yelled and screeched at them, even made a tv show about it, and sold camping trips. Would it be fraudulent? Or legit? Feel free to replace dragon with bigfoot.
On this basis I expect you will also be leading the campaign to sue the city of Inverness for the amount of "Nessie" tourism they encourage?
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Old 5th June 2013, 11:15 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Strange famous View Post
On this basis I expect you will also be leading the campaign to sue the city of Inverness for the amount of "Nessie" tourism they encourage?
Do they lead people around forest yelling and hooting too? Paid camping trips? (to public areas) Should we sue some of the bigfoot stores in california also? Or the cities that allow them to be there? Kind of like attempting to sue the city of Roswell New Mexico.

I take people that claim to see bigfoot much like people that claim to see ghosts. That's nice *yawn*. Got any more cool stories? Someone like Moneymaker takes it to a different level. I guess if you have no problem cashing in on huge lies, and commit yourself into deluding others, bigfoot is the least of your worries/issues.

But that's just my opinion. Police sometimes still take psychics leads. So there you go. Religions are a huge part of societies. All sorts of "beliefs" out there, and hopefully most of them will be exposed with time. Just like the mermaid, errr bigfoot thing.
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Old 5th June 2013, 11:53 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Strange famous View Post
I am talking about morality.

Moneymaker isn't hurting anybody. The people who go on his bigfoot hunts get exactly what they paid for and what they want. No exploitation is taking place.

These are consenting adults, and if they choose believe that the experience he offers is what they want, who are you to stop them? Maybe they are guys who just like being out in the woods but dont want to shoot things... I dont think its a bad thing.

I went on lots of "ghost hunts" with a mate and a couple of girls when I was a teenager. I dont think any of us were serious about investigating the paranormal.

And Moneymaker is a lawyer, I doubt very much any of what he does goes far enough to be criminal. It isn't againt the law to mislead people.
For financial gain it is.
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Old 5th June 2013, 12:24 PM   #176
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But he will have a contract with everyone who goes on a hunt, and it will be worded in some way that this is an "experience", not a zoological study.

Like I said, the guy was a lawyer, he isnt going to leave himself exposed.

And on what basis SHOULD anyone sue him?

You go camping, you hear some stories, you see a tree knocked over by the wind and wonder if a Bigfoot did it... I genuinely dont see that anybody is being ripped off.

_

This guy isnt doing anything CLOSE to people charging somebody to maintain an imaginary connection to a dead loved one. He is charging people to go out and have a romp round the woods.

Would you sue a funfair who operated a ghost train because the ghosts weren't real? Would you sue a haunted house attraction for the same reason?
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Old 5th June 2013, 12:25 PM   #177
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Sorry, my response was directed at Strange Famous. Whether someone is happily bilked or not, they are still being conned.
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Old 5th June 2013, 12:33 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Strange famous View Post
But he will have a contract with everyone who goes on a hunt, and it will be worded in some way that this is an "experience", not a zoological study.

Like I said, the guy was a lawyer, he isnt going to leave himself exposed.

And on what basis SHOULD anyone sue him?

You go camping, you hear some stories, you see a tree knocked over by the wind and wonder if a Bigfoot did it... I genuinely dont see that anybody is being ripped off.

_

This guy isnt doing anything CLOSE to people charging somebody to maintain an imaginary connection to a dead loved one. He is charging people to go out and have a romp round the woods.

Would you sue a funfair who operated a ghost train because the ghosts weren't real? Would you sue a haunted house attraction for the same reason?
But you said you think he believes in bigfoot. If he believes in bigfoot your above scenario does not apply.
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Old 5th June 2013, 12:37 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by GT/CS View Post
But you said you think he believes in bigfoot. If he believes in bigfoot your above scenario does not apply.
Don't get your argument.

Lots of people who run the ghost train at the funfair might really believe in ghosts.
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Old 5th June 2013, 01:17 PM   #180
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The funfair is billed as fun - no one goes expecting to see real ghosts. With Moneymaker, there's no wink or nod. He's claiming that he's really in contact with real bigfoots. He's in the realm of grade-A dbaggery on my moral compass, regardless of whatever legal loophole through which he might be sliding.
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Old 5th June 2013, 01:41 PM   #181
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^^^ Exactly. You don't see the fair claiming we need to spend more dollars investigating the phenomenon and insisting that it's real. It's sold as a fair attraction, not as a "real entity"

Moneymaker has been on many television screens claiming that bigfoot is not only real, he's seen it on a few occasions and he feels like science is ignoring the most important discovery of a lifetime. (if you were to believe his shpeel) He's doing it for profit, and he's deluding others into believing there is a huge beast wandering around the forests. What happens when someone takes a shot at one? (and someone dies, like a hiker in the distance) Is it still going to be innocent? Scientists like Meldrum should be held to a higher standard when it comes to these things. I find his bosses to be at fault, for putting up with the shenanigans. Albeit his funding is mostly private, it's still a huge embarrassment to a serious school. I'll be happy when all of the silly belief systems are exposed. It's just one of many things used to bilk the weak (minded) from cash.
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Old 5th June 2013, 01:59 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Strange famous View Post
Matt is nothing like any of these mediums who exploit peoples grief for gain.

He isnt hurting anyone, and he isnt exploiting anyone. I personally think he believes there is a bigfoot, but he is one of those people who doesn't have a moral problem with "helping" others see the evidence. Its not exactly fraud, even if there might be someone in the woods knocking two sticks together every now and again. It isnt exactly honest either. But the people who go on his expeditions know what thy are getting and are happy to pay for it. Somebody who is all torn up and paying to hear what their dead mum has to say... Thats completely different (not that everyone who thinks or says they can speak to the dead goes about it the same way of course)
Funny how all those tress got in the way of you seeing the forest. Obviously you didn't read the initial bumped link above. I admit you're good at pretending you're oblivious to the concept, so I'll ask, do you have any understanding at all of the concept of honesty? Because according to you, his charging $500 a head to go on midnight Bigfoot hikes with him is not only legal, but wholly honest and morally acceptable because, well, he sometimes winks when he takes your money. I'll bet money that great American Bernie Madoff winked a few times too.

FTR (since I asked?), I don't believe there's any difference between Sylvia Brown and Matt Moneymaker in terms of their dubious character. Both are antisocial opportunists who derive 99% of their income off the simple premise that they're being sincere and honest. And yet, anyone with just an amoeba's intelligence could decipher the cosmic implausibility that either one of them actually 'believes in' the underlying subject matter of their con. Does anyone not Strange famous seriously doubt that if you took out the monetary gain component, we'd never hear from either one of these lumps again?

ETA:
Regarding his Bigfoot expeditions, I'm more and more curious-er why someone 'purely skeptical' hasn't gone on one of these expeditions and written an expose of what's really going on there. Reading the 'reviews' on the BFRO website is no different than Justin Bieber writing his own reviews. We really need somebody to go to the show and give an honest (there's that word again, sorry Strange Famous) review.

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Old 5th June 2013, 02:15 PM   #183
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It is my opinion that Matt Moneymaker probably believes Bigfoot is real, and probably has seen dark shadows of heard funny noises in the forest that support his belief.

I think he deliberately exaggerates or maybe fakes some "evidence" but believes that he is replicating something that is real rather than complete fantasy.

_

I think the people who go on his trips get exactly what they want. I do think it matters that he might wink when he takes the money. Sylvia Browne doesn't. That is the big difference.

NOBODY goes on a BFRO Bigfoot hunt thinking they are going on a serious zoological expedition to look for a real animal in a scientific way. They go to have an adventure and tell and listen to some tall tales, and hear a wood knock of a Bigfoot howl in the distance.

_

Like I said, Inverness makes a ton of money selling "Loch Ness" to tourists. Are those tourists being defrauded? Is the head of the Highlands Tourist Agency an anti-social monster? I don't see any difference. People go and visit Loch Ness (I have myself, although my grandparents lived in Inverness...) and have some fun learning about and having a look for the monster.
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Old 5th June 2013, 02:20 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Strange famous View Post
NOBODY goes on a BFRO Bigfoot hunt thinking they are going on a serious zoological expedition to look for a real animal in a scientific way. They go to have an adventure and tell and listen to some tall tales, and hear a wood knock of a Bigfoot howl in the distance.
You can't possibly know this.

Campfire stories and S'mores don't cost five bills.
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Old 5th June 2013, 02:48 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Strange famous View Post
It is my opinion that Matt Moneymaker probably believes Bigfoot is real, and probably has seen dark shadows of heard funny noises in the forest that support his belief.

I think he deliberately exaggerates or maybe fakes some "evidence" but believes that he is replicating something that is real rather than complete fantasy.

_

I think the people who go on his trips get exactly what they want. I do think it matters that he might wink when he takes the money. Sylvia Browne doesn't. That is the big difference.

NOBODY goes on a BFRO Bigfoot hunt thinking they are going on a serious zoological expedition to look for a real animal in a scientific way. They go to have an adventure and tell and listen to some tall tales, and hear a wood knock of a Bigfoot howl in the distance.

_

Like I said, Inverness makes a ton of money selling "Loch Ness" to tourists. Are those tourists being defrauded? Is the head of the Highlands Tourist Agency an anti-social monster? I don't see any difference. People go and visit Loch Ness (I have myself, although my grandparents lived in Inverness...) and have some fun learning about and having a look for the monster.

Hmm, why does their website say this:
Quote:
The overall mission of the BFRO is multifaceted, but the organization essentially seeks to resolve the mystery surrounding the bigfoot phenomenon, that is, to derive conclusive documentation of the species' existence. This goal is pursued through the proactive collection of empirical data and physical evidence from the field and by means of activities designed to promote an awareness and understanding of the nature and origin of the evidence.

These large apes are spotted mostly in forested regions with abundant protein sources. Deer in particular. They consistently maintain low population levels in those areas, even where the protein sources could support dramatically larger numbers of them. Consequently they have never become an ongoing nuisance to human communities, or to human livestock.

This page seems to have a list of "scientists" and others that study the phenomenon. That seems to totally contradict your assumptions of no one taking it seriously or in a scientific/zoological manor.


What proof do you have of your assertions?
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Old 5th June 2013, 05:16 PM   #186
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Moneymaker and Browne are alike in that both know that believers, above all, want to believe. And Moneymaker and Browne know that they can exploit that want for personal profit with very little blowback from their customers/believers.

Moneymaker comes across as the less bright of the two. Somewhere along the line, he has decided that positive thinking alone replaces rational thought. He is unbridled and is untethered to the bare necessity of fact based reality as it relates to Bigfoot. He is carny. He barks. He sells tickets.

Browne is possibly delusional as well. She has convinced herself of her own power, as derived from the great unchallengeable dodge in the sky, her benefactor, God. Between the two, she is the more guilty because, aside from profit, she may damage the tender psyche of her clients.
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Old 6th June 2013, 05:13 AM   #187
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Victims of this type of fraud do not like to go public either.

It is difficult to admit you were duped.
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Old 6th June 2013, 05:14 AM   #188
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Wasn't the BFRO at one point guaranteeing contact with a Bigfoot on their trips?
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Old 7th June 2013, 01:12 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Strange famous View Post
<snip>
And Moneymaker is a lawyer, ...
<snip>
When did he pass the bar?
A couple of years ago it was a well known fact that he had not passed the bar and was not a practicing lawyer. I must not have gotten the memo about him taking the bar exam and passing it.
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Old 7th June 2013, 04:36 AM   #190
Correa Neto
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The BIB (Bigfoots In Black) erased that information from public knowledge.

BTW, I am starting siren-watching expeditions. If you go, you are guaranteed to experience "siren-activity". Just U$ 5K per participant, not including expenses related to travel (airline tickets, for example), food and hotels.
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Old 7th June 2013, 03:29 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Correa Neto View Post
The BIB (Bigfoots In Black) erased that information from public knowledge.

BTW, I am starting siren-watching expeditions. If you go, you are guaranteed to experience "siren-activity". Just U$ 5K per participant, not including expenses related to travel (airline tickets, for example), food and hotels.
For $5K I'll send BF to your place of residence. He/she might show up as random knocks, glimpses of blurry beasts, tracks that go no where or strange feelings in the pit of your stomach but there will be a manifestation.
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Old 7th June 2013, 04:11 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Strange famous View Post
On this basis I expect you will also be leading the campaign to sue the city of Inverness for the amount of "Nessie" tourism they encourage?
If anyone wants to start such a campaign, can they please send me a membership application?
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Old 7th June 2013, 04:23 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by HarryHenderson View Post
FTR (since I asked?), I don't believe there's any difference between Sylvia Brown and Matt Moneymaker in terms of their dubious character. Both are antisocial opportunists who derive 99% of their income off the simple premise that they're being sincere and honest. And yet, anyone with just an amoeba's intelligence could decipher the cosmic implausibility that either one of them actually 'believes in' the underlying subject matter of their con. Does anyone not Strange famous seriously doubt that if you took out the monetary gain component, we'd never hear from either one of these lumps again?
Why is it that it is impossible (or very close to it) for someone who runs one of these kinds of operations to be a true believer? Is it because they have to be rational(!) to successfully (= get their money) run the operation? Which goes to show that "rationality" and "good character" are not equivalent (rational doesn't imply good character and good character doesn't imply rational).
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Old 7th June 2013, 05:13 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by mike3 View Post
Why is it that it is impossible (or very close to it) for someone who runs one of these kinds of operations to be a true believer? Is it because they have to be rational(!) to successfully (= get their money) run the operation? (Though you can't say "have to be rational in order to run a con", since "conning" implies they know it's false, i.e. are not a believer. Yet that assumption is the target of my question, so that would be circular.) Which goes to show that "rationality" and "good character" are not equivalent (rational doesn't imply good character and good character doesn't imply rational).
That's a great question. Firstly, I was talking specifically about Moneymaker (and/or Brown, and you can add Meldrum to it also). And second, always keep in mind there is no Bigfoot.

So how many times would you estimate the average 'rational true bleever' would need to go out into the woods actively searching for the beast before realizing it's all just a big ghost story? Five, 20, 100 times? How many Bigfoot 'roundups' and expeditions would you say Moneymaker's been on? How many has he been on where he didn't also have paying clients? I'd say he's been on at least 150 of them (and probably 149 of those had some amount of paying customers). So in 150 trips into wild North American country no self respecting Bigfoot could possibly resist, neither he nor anyone else he's ever brought along has ever seen an actual hide or a hair or obtained even one clear picture or one 5 second video - that pesky non-existence thingy and all - yet there's still a 'rational' argument to be made that he could still be a bleever after all that? If that's really so then he's neither rational nor intelligent nor of any value to mankind at all. Off with his head.
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Old 7th June 2013, 05:54 PM   #195
mike3
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Originally Posted by HarryHenderson View Post
That's a great question. Firstly, I was talking specifically about Moneymaker (and/or Brown, and you can add Meldrum to it also). And second, always keep in mind there is no Bigfoot.

So how many times would you estimate the average 'rational true bleever' would need to go out into the woods actively searching for the beast before realizing it's all just a big ghost story? Five, 20, 100 times? How many Bigfoot 'roundups' and expeditions would you say Moneymaker's been on? How many has he been on where he didn't also have paying clients? I'd say he's been on at least 150 of them (and probably 149 of those had some amount of paying customers). So in 150 trips into wild North American country no self respecting Bigfoot could possibly resist, neither he nor anyone else he's ever brought along has ever seen an actual hide or a hair or obtained even one clear picture or one 5 second video - that pesky non-existence thingy and all - yet there's still a 'rational' argument to be made that he could still be a bleever after all that? If that's really so then he's neither rational nor intelligent nor of any value to mankind at all. Off with his head.
However, if it's that implausible, then how is it that we manage to run across all kinds of "true believers" on woowoo sites that utterly refuse to budge despite tons and tons of argument against them. Some have even come on this site, for various kinds of woowoo (not just Bigfoot).
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Old 31st March 2014, 07:30 PM   #196
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I didn't intend to bump this thread tonight but I've found (or rather not found) something interesting. I'm updating my bigfoot lecture and went to the BFRO website to find some classic Moneymaker talking points. The BFRO, however, appears to be defunct. Anyone know anything about this?
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Old 31st March 2014, 07:54 PM   #197
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Hmm. What's the buzz from Bigfooters? That would be big big news and if it isn't plastered all over the Bigfoot and Crypto Web then maybe it didn't happen.
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Old 31st March 2014, 08:12 PM   #198
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Server crash apparently.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 1st April 2014, 07:16 AM   #199
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It is still down evidently
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Old 1st April 2014, 07:27 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
It is still down evidently
Too many April Fools' Day jokesters?

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