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Tags bigfoot , bill munns , Patterson-Gimlin film

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Old 20th June 2012, 06:29 PM   #161
OntarioSquatch
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Originally Posted by GT/CS View Post
So you have a better grasp of bipedal locomotion than Meldrum?
lol I obviously don't. They concluded that the subject couldn't copy all the aspects of the walk in the documentary.

Professor Jurgen Konczak specializes in human locomotion. Professor Jeffrey Meldrum doesn't.

Last edited by OntarioSquatch; 20th June 2012 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 20th June 2012, 06:29 PM   #162
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That was fun the first time. Thanks , Castro!
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Old 20th June 2012, 06:40 PM   #163
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You're welcome Tom. Those threads can be pretty boring sometimes, can't they?

Last edited by Castro; 20th June 2012 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 20th June 2012, 06:42 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Castro View Post
Youre welcome Tom. Those threads can be pretty boring sometimes, can't they?
Yeah.. but when you are slogging through them.. suddenly there appears a gem !?
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Old 20th June 2012, 06:45 PM   #165
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Definitely
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Old 20th June 2012, 07:37 PM   #166
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Ontario,
Are you going to respond to post 153?
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Old 20th June 2012, 10:29 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
lol I obviously don't. They concluded that the subject couldn't copy all the aspects of the walk in the documentary.

Professor Jurgen Konczak specializes in human locomotion. Professor Jeffrey Meldrum doesn't.
I'll be interested in seeing some peer review and error analysis of Prof. Konczak's findings. His credentials as a kinesiologist are certainly impressive, as a simple yahoo search shows.

This page from 2009 briefly discusses Konczak's PGF work and conclusions. I can't copy any text for the edification of the forum, but the gist is that Konczak motion-captures an athlete and concludes that "the motions could not have been made by a human". On-hand, NYU primatologist E. Sarmiento pronounces that the gait does not match that of an ape or a human.



We can see in this video (thanks, Castro!), from 29:00, that the subject in the ape suit mimicks "Patty"'s compliant gait almost perfectly. The "almost" consists in idiosyncrasies that are endemic to individual human beings.

We also see Tube and a guy named Tom Pate doing it in still photographs here.

Are Konczak and Sarmiento unfamiliar with the compliant gait? (I use it myself when I descend the steep sidewalk north of my house, or when carrying heavy boxes/loads at work.) Are they assuming that vertical femurs (as opposed to ground-plane parallel) are the sole mode of locomotion that can be classified as "human"?

I want to see their data... and better yet, get a second opinion from another kinesiologist and primatologist who don't show up semi-regularly on bigfoot shows (as Sarmiento does).
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Old 20th June 2012, 10:38 PM   #168
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Want to see someone do the "patty" walk? You can film yourself doing it real easy. Put on some swim flippers and take long steps and film yourself doing it. Bigfeet make for bigfoot walk.
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Old 21st June 2012, 05:04 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
...We can see in this video (thanks, Castro!), from 29:00, that the subject in the ape suit mimicks "Patty"'s compliant gait almost perfectly. The "almost" consists in idiosyncrasies that are endemic to individual human beings...
^^^ This.

With practice an actor could mimic my gait, or that of my wife almost perfectly - but probably never exactly perfectly.

Whoever was in the suit came up with what they thought was a suitably animalistic gait for the film. That it took a little training to mimic the film's subject is not an argument against it being a man in a suit.
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Old 21st June 2012, 05:15 AM   #170
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es1NuzcHrlc

He walks like bigfoot.
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Old 21st June 2012, 05:17 AM   #171
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It looks like this FB page: The Bigfoot Hunting Club has located a road-killed Bigfoot.
http://www.facebook.com/BigfootHuntingClub
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Old 21st June 2012, 07:22 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Want to see someone do the "patty" walk? You can film yourself doing it real easy. Put on some swim flippers and take long steps and film yourself doing it. Bigfeet make for bigfoot walk.
That's how it's done. When your feet are too long for your shins, you need to pick up your feet higher than normal so that your toes clear the ground. Bob H wasn't "doing" a walk on purpose. He was just walking as he does while wearing those oversized feet.
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Old 21st June 2012, 09:12 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
That's how it's done. When your feet are too long for your shins, you need to pick up your feet higher than normal so that your toes clear the ground. Bob H wasn't "doing" a walk on purpose. He was just walking as he does while wearing those oversized feet.
I think that's part of it, but MOB has Patterson coaching Bob H to do an "ape" walk.
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Old 21st June 2012, 09:21 AM   #174
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Correct, that's why he did the arm swing.
Most apes don't swing their arms when they walk but most people think they do.
The arm swing is just more evidence of Patty being a bloke in a suit.
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Old 21st June 2012, 12:20 PM   #175
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^That's Bob Heironimus wearing Philip Morris's "original" suit. I don't think people understand how difficult it is creating a wearable costume that will look like Patty. When Bill Munns says 0.00005, he really means it. He knows just how impossible it is to recreate the film. People accuse him of bias because his report is not confirming on the hoax theory.
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Old 21st June 2012, 12:28 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
^That's Bob Heironimus wearing Philip Morris's "original" suit. I don't think people understand how difficult it is creating a wearable costume that will look like Patty. When Bill Munns says 0.00005, he really means it. He knows just how impossible it is to recreate the film. People accuse him of bias because his report is not confirming on the hoax theory.
No one accuses him of bias, he admits it freely. If anyone says he is biased, they are simply quoting Bill Munns.
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Old 21st June 2012, 12:35 PM   #177
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What is really amazing is how good the costume and acting are in the 1955 Japanese Tarzan Baruuba movie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mufnIc_pIe8

If you think Patty couldn't be built in 1967, how did they build this suit in 1955?

That actor in the Gorilla suit has really short legs, far below normal human range...
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Old 21st June 2012, 12:36 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by GT/CS View Post
Correct, that's why he did the arm swing.
Most apes don't swing their arms when they walk but most people think they do.
The arm swing is just more evidence of Patty being a bloke in a suit.
Concur. Just check out some bipedal walking chimps and gorillas and YouTube. You won't find any swinging their arms like Patty.
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Old 21st June 2012, 12:47 PM   #179
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Ontario,
Post 153 is still unanswered.
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Old 21st June 2012, 12:54 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
If you think Patty couldn't be built in 1967, how did they build this suit in 1955?
Or, the form-fitting muscle definition in an ape suit in 1936 Tarzan movie - not to mention The Lost World ape man from 1925? Was this technology somehow lost to Hollywood during WWII and not rediscovered until the 1970s?
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Old 21st June 2012, 01:09 PM   #181
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I listed a whole series of movies from the 30s-90s with convincing ape or ape-man suits, which have been summarily ignored by the ignorant and uninterested-in-education OntarioSquatch.
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Old 21st June 2012, 01:23 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by GT/CS View Post
Why do you accept Roger's story over Bob's story?
Roger's story is that he fell off the horse and bent a stirrup in the process. He even showed the bent stirrup to people, so why do you think he slid off the horse?
I accept Roger's story over BobH's because BobH's story has inconsistencies with both the film and Philip Morris himself. For example, Philip Morris said the fur was made from synthetic material, while BobH said it was made from real horse hide. Roger Patterson couldn't have changed the material of the suit, he would have had to use a completely different suit.

I haven't heard of the bent stirrup, it's the first time I've heard of it, but I do know after reading many reports of Bigfoot, animals like horses and dogs become really afraid when they are around one. I'm not exactly sure what it is they are afraid of, but i'm sure it's something that can be explained by science one day. Hopefully.
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Old 21st June 2012, 01:35 PM   #183
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But Roger says he fell off the horse, bent a stirrup, and hurt his foot.

Gimlin never seems to recall these events, despite being right there.

Gimlin's horse either ran off as well, or wasn't much bothered, depending on when you ask Gimlin.

If dogs are afraid, why did Roger want some to chase Patty?

And why did he call Canada for them?
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 21st June 2012, 01:57 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
I accept Roger's story over BobH's because BobH's story has inconsistencies with both the film and Philip Morris himself. For example, Philip Morris said the fur was made from synthetic material, while BobH said it was made from real horse hide. Roger Patterson couldn't have changed the material of the suit, he would have had to use a completely different suit.

I haven't heard of the bent stirrup, it's the first time I've heard of it, but I do know after reading many reports of Bigfoot, animals like horses and dogs become really afraid when they are around one. I'm not exactly sure what it is they are afraid of, but i'm sure it's something that can be explained by science one day. Hopefully.
Bob did not say it was made from horse hide. He said he was told it was made from horse hide. He told the absolute truth in that he just repeated what he was told.

You said Roger slid off the horse but he said he fell off and nearly broke his foot in the stirrup. Do you see how you do not clearly understand the facts and are basing your belief on faulty information?

If you open your mind, do some digging, and weigh all the facts you may see things in a different light, even if you don't want to.
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Old 21st June 2012, 02:29 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
I accept Roger's story over BobH's because BobH's story has inconsistencies with both the film and Philip Morris himself. For example, Philip Morris said the fur was made from synthetic material, while BobH said it was made from real horse hide. Roger Patterson couldn't have changed the material of the suit, he would have had to use a completely different suit.

I haven't heard of the bent stirrup, it's the first time I've heard of it, but I do know after reading many reports of Bigfoot, animals like horses and dogs become really afraid when they are around one. I'm not exactly sure what it is they are afraid of, but i'm sure it's something that can be explained by science one day. Hopefully.
How do you know that it wasn't a bear?
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Old 21st June 2012, 02:39 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
I do know after reading many reports of Bigfoot, animals like horses and dogs become really afraid when they are around one. I'm not exactly sure what it is they are afraid of,.
Fer crissakes. I've nearly been thrown from a horse spooked by a frikken mongoose; they're skittish animals, scared by their own shadows.

Bigfoot, gimme a break already.

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Old 21st June 2012, 02:46 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
How do you know that it wasn't a bear?
Of course I can't speak for every sighting, but I can confidently say many eyewitnesses know what they were looking at.
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Old 21st June 2012, 03:19 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
Of course I can't speak for every sighting, but I can confidently say many eyewitnesses know what they were looking at.
Why "confidently?"

If it's because the person is knowledgeable about wildlife, that doesn't preclude the person being wrong. It doesn't preclude the person having a hallucination or having a false memory of the event. It doesn't preclude the person being hoaxed by someone else. It certainly doesn't preclude that person from fabricating the story.

This is the nature of anecdotal information, and why it's useless when it comes to describing a new species. If there isn't a piece of that new species that can be measured and described, then it's at best premature to consider that it exists at all. There are too many competing explanations for anecdotal accounts.

Note of course, that both liars and people who believe themselves to be correct will be perceived as unfailingly honest and sincere.

I don't share your confidence.
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Old 21st June 2012, 03:20 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
Of course I can't speak for every sighting, but I can confidently say many eyewitnesses know what they were looking at.
No they didn't. They imagined or believed (or later fraudulently reported) that they saw an unknown, uncatalogued animal for which not a molecule of evidence exists.
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Old 21st June 2012, 05:01 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
Of course I can't speak for every sighting, but I can confidently say many eyewitnesses know what they were looking at.
I'm amazed that you are so closed-minded that you won't consider any other possibilities.
So they all saw bigfoot. Couldn't have been anything else. None of them saw a bear, or imagined it, or were drinking at the time, and you're positive of those facts.

Why do believers tell skeptics to be open-minded when the problem is clearly with the former?
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Old 21st June 2012, 05:54 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
Of course I can't speak for every sighting, but I can confidently say many eyewitnesses know what they were looking at.
Just like all the thousands of eyewitnesses a century ago who so confidently reported their own fairy sightings during the fairy craze? Are you ready to believe in fairies too? The evidence may be older, but it's every bit as solid as the evidence for BF.
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Old 21st June 2012, 08:47 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by GT/CS View Post
Ontario,
Post 153 is still unanswered.
And apparently it will remain that way into perpetuity. These folks dont seem to want to reply to anything that they cannot easily cover up or explain away. They certainly do not like to be called and raised.
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Old 21st June 2012, 08:52 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by AttorneyTom View Post
And apparently it will remain that way into perpetuity. These folks dont seem to want to reply to anything that they cannot easily cover up or explain away. They certainly do not like to be called and raised.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=182
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Old 22nd June 2012, 07:10 AM   #194
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Do you have any thoughts on post 190?
Why are you so close-minded when it comes to bigfoot?

And why do you just accept the false facts you hear about bigfoot instead of searching for the truth. An example being not accepting Roger's version of him falling off the horse and bending his stirrup, but instead accepting Gimlin's story of him leaping off the horse.
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Old 7th August 2012, 10:41 AM   #195
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Now the guy who believes Patty is a real bigfoot is going to prove it by making a suit using Long's book as a guide.

Finally, real objective evidence!!!!!

Originally Posted by Bill Munns @ BFF
I will be building a suit to Bob H.'s specifications, complete with football leather helmet and shoulder pads, and split at the waist, as he described. I will be using only the exact description Bob H. made in Long's book, Making of Bigfoot.

I will show you what you get according to his specifications, and how it compares to the PGF subject.

Bill
http://bigfootforums.com/index.php?/...page__st__2550
Post 2552

I'm sure his recreation test will be completely unbiased.

One of Bill's problems is that Patterson was a better artist and craftsman than Bill could ever hope to be.
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:50 PM   #196
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Munns will build a suit based on BobH's description?

That's ludicrous:

A craftsman builds something unique.

A non-craftsman examines it at close range, and decades later describes it from memory to an author who writes those statements in a book.

Based on those statements, a second craftsman attempts to recreate the unique thing.

Lemme guess - if the suit ends up an unmitigated failure that'll prove that BobH was never in the suit?
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Old 7th August 2012, 03:33 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Munns will build a suit based on BobH's description?

That's ludicrous:

A craftsman builds something unique.

A non-craftsman examines it at close range, and decades later describes it from memory to an author who writes those statements in a book.

Based on those statements, a second craftsman attempts to recreate the unique thing.

Lemme guess - if the suit ends up an unmitigated failure that'll prove that BobH was never in the suit?
This is like shroud of Turin believers reproducing the shroud to prove it was faked.

It will not end well.
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Old 7th August 2012, 04:20 PM   #198
Correa Neto
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Munns knows how to fish footers.
They'll swallow it all, bait, hook and sinker.

I bet Munns can build a better bigfoot costume than the one Patterson built or adapted. I doubt, however, that he will do it.
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Old 7th August 2012, 04:35 PM   #199
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Yeah, Munns may be a dishonest attention whore and a drunk but he's intelligent enough to know what he needs to do to enhance his bigfoot career.
His joint effort with Meldrum proves that.
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Old 8th August 2012, 01:18 PM   #200
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Bill is incorrect. The chance of the film being faked is more like 0

Here's a bonus gif image from SweatyYeti

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