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Old 11th March 2010, 06:15 AM   #1
tishayton
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Question Womb twin survivors - a memory of the womb?

I'm new here, so sorry in advance if I am doing this wrong. I am working as a therapist with people (womb twin survivors) who say they have some kind of cellular memory of a twin lost before birth. Some have proof of their lost twin and others don't - or cant get hold of it because their mother has died or wont say etc. I have been talking to experts, but I want to find out how skeptical people (who are coming to this "cold" with presumably little or no previous knowledge) are about the whole idea of some kind of pre-birth memory. So that is why Im posting here.

I was very skeptical at first myself, but the evidence in favour is beginning to mount up. What advice do you all have about how I ought to carry out the research? Thanks.
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Old 11th March 2010, 06:22 AM   #2
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Could you post links to this evidence that is building up, I am not aware of any of it.

[as you are new, you won't be able to post complete links, so break them (eg by putting spaces in or something) and I will fix them for you.]
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Old 11th March 2010, 07:25 AM   #3
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Been argued here before, see

link

That seems to be by the woman who invented the condition.
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Old 11th March 2010, 07:42 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Been argued here before, see

link

That seems to be by the woman who invented the condition.
Didn't Carl sagan in his book "Dragons in Eden" make a reference to a child perhaps of his when asked to tell his earliest memory said I remember it being "dark and warm and then red and cold" As I recall Carl went on to say that this was probably some childs fantasy or something to that effect??
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Old 11th March 2010, 07:42 AM   #5
tishayton
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Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
Could you post links to this evidence that is building up, I am not aware of any of it.

[as you are new, you won't be able to post complete links, so break them (eg by putting spaces in or something) and I will fix them for you.]
Try wombtwinsurvivors dot com for a start, also vanishing twin dot com, and there are a couple of yahoo forums each with hundreds of members also the twinless twins organisation, many of them lost twins at birth or before. The wikipedia vanising twin page is good too thats got references.
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Old 11th March 2010, 07:51 AM   #6
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I was more wondering what evidence in particular you found convincing?
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Old 11th March 2010, 07:52 AM   #7
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Didn't Carl sagan in his book "Dragons in Eden" make a reference to a child perhaps of his when asked to tell his earliest memory said I remember it being "dark and warm and then red and cold" As I recall Carl went on to say that this was probably some childs fantasy or something to that effect??
It is almost assuredly a false memory. It is not like those are hard to make.
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Old 11th March 2010, 08:11 AM   #8
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Not the same, but some relevance. There are two boys (young men now I suppose) in London, who are separated conjoined twins. Each boy kept one leg, and has a prosthetic leg on the other side.

As children, they refused utterly to have separate rooms, and were frequently found in the same bed - lying together in the position they had been in before the surgery. They also had a neat trick of taking off their prosthetic legs and riding a bicycle - again arranged as they were before separation, each by with the appropriate foot on a pedal.

The odd thing is, they were surgically separated in very early infancy, long before you'd imagine they would be able to remember being together.

I've no idea is this is really relevant, but I always found it intriguing.

Rolfe.
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Old 11th March 2010, 09:19 AM   #9
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I think this is just another case of false dilemma or selective thinking. You are making assumptions without considering all the other possible causes.

It has been made clear through it is highly unlikely that memories from the womb came be real.

"Long-term memory requires elaborative encoding in the inner part of the temporal lobes. If the left inferior prefrontal lobe is damaged or undeveloped, there will be grave difficulty with elaborative encoding. This area of the brain is undeveloped in very young children (under the age of three). Hence, it is very unlikely that any story of having a memory of life in the cradle or in the womb is accurate." - The Skeptic's Dictionary
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Old 11th March 2010, 09:35 AM   #10
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There are therapies which claim patients have remembered things before birth, Primal Therapy, is one I can think of offhand. The major obstacle I see is ensuring that therapists are absolutely not making suggestions to the patient. I found this article, on people who retracted previous alleged memories:

http://www.fmsfonline.org/retract1.html
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Old 11th March 2010, 09:50 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
... The odd thing is, they were surgically separated in very early infancy, long before you'd imagine they would be able to remember being together.

I've no idea is this is really relevant, but I always found it intriguing.

Rolfe.
Elizabeth Loftus is a key researcher in this field; you can find some of her writing in Skeptic magazine. Basically, you don't form memories till after you turn three.

Relevant to Rolfe's post, Loftus recounts how a psychologist she knows had vivid memories of his nanny saving his life when he was two. When the guy was in his thirties, the aged nanny wrote to his parents and apologized for making up the story, and she returned the gold watch they had given her in gratitude. It seems he had heard the story so many times when he was finally old-enough to remember the details- he developed a false memory of the non-event.
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Old 11th March 2010, 10:34 AM   #12
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Well you must have some form of long term episodic memory before 3. When my older kid was 2 he would often talk about things he had done several weeks (or even months) before. He wouldn't be able to tell you what he had for lunch earlier in the day, but would suddenly start talking about something he had done months ago. I think the point is that at this age, the memories don't tend to be rehearsed so much, so they are more likely to be forgotten and not make it to the more permanent (ie that will survive to adulthood) long term memory. My son, at the age of 6 now doesn't seem to be able to remember anything before age 3 now.

But anyway, though I doubt whether there is a fixed lower age limit of 3 years, I still think the idea of memories of babyhood and prebirth are nonsense.

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Old 11th March 2010, 10:42 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Not the same, but some relevance. There are two boys (young men now I suppose) in London, who are separated conjoined twins. Each boy kept one leg, and has a prosthetic leg on the other side.

As children, they refused utterly to have separate rooms, and were frequently found in the same bed - lying together in the position they had been in before the surgery. They also had a neat trick of taking off their prosthetic legs and riding a bicycle - again arranged as they were before separation, each by with the appropriate foot on a pedal.

The odd thing is, they were surgically separated in very early infancy, long before you'd imagine they would be able to remember being together.

I've no idea is this is really relevant, but I always found it intriguing.

Rolfe.
I think that would be related more to procedural/implicit memory which seems to work in a different way to explicit/episodic memory that we are talking about here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit_memory
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Old 11th March 2010, 01:12 PM   #14
JJM
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Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
Well you must have some form of long term episodic memory before 3. ...
Instead of arguing, you could look up what Elizabeth Loftus has to say.
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Old 11th March 2010, 02:31 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by tishayton View Post
I have been talking to experts, but I want to find out how skeptical people (who are coming to this "cold" with presumably little or no previous knowledge) are about the whole idea of some kind of pre-birth memory.
I can tell you what Dr.Christopher Barden has to say:

President
R. Christopher Barden, Ph.D., J.D., L.P.
National Association for Consumer Protection In Mental Health Practices


He wondered why on earth therapists would spend any time on this nonsense.
"If a patient comes into your office and tells you he is Napoleon do you spend the next five years going over strategic war plans and count the number of soldiers and horses ? Hell no, only a quack therapist would do that".

tishayton, are you spending your time as a therapist counting soldiers and horses?

I can tell you that I have no expertise in this area but I hope you are not encouraging mentally fragile people to subject themselves to this quackery or wasting your time on this nonsense.
I suggest you spend more of your time listening to neurologists and less time listening to recovered memory therapists if you really want to know how the brain stores memories.
It is physically impossible for a person to have that type of "twin memory" because the brain is not sufficiently developed before or even long after birth to store such memories. That's just a biological fact.
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Old 11th March 2010, 03:00 PM   #16
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I think Loftus's work in recovered/created memories offers a much more plausible explanation than that somehow people have memores of twin lost at birth or younger. Especially those who didn't even have a twin, but are sure if only they could ask their deceased mother they would discover one.

The experiments that detailed subjects remembering meeting Bugs Bunny at Disneyland* demonstrated conclusively that detailed false memories can be generated without excessive 'leading' by the therapist. In the absence of compelling evidence that infant memories are recorded by a different means than is used for older humans, I regard this missing twin thing as humbug.

Just my thoughts, Miss_Kitt

* http://www.rickross.com/reference/fa...ies/fsm49.html
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Old 11th March 2010, 03:48 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
Well you must have some form of long term episodic memory before 3. ...
Originally Posted by JJM View Post
Instead of arguing, you could look up what Elizabeth Loftus has to say.
I apologize. Years ago I did read what Loftus wrote and I probably oversimplified it, as you pointed out.
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Old 11th March 2010, 04:44 PM   #18
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Yes, my reply was in part based on what I had read about Loftus (and others) have written about memory; ie rehearsal=consolidation etc. My knowledge of memory is very rusty though as I haven't studied it for a good number of years.
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Old 11th March 2010, 05:25 PM   #19
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At the website you mentioned, wombtwinsurvivors.com, there is a questionnaire. If I fill it out as I would have in my 20's, it highly suggests that I am suffering from missing twin syndrome (or whatever you want to call it.) But there is no way I had a twin. There are none in my family, no complications during gestation and I was a huge baby.

The emotional part of the questionnaire is far longer than the potential missing twin information. Worse it is applicable to anyone who has ever faced depression. These sorts of questionnaires lead people into incorrect assumptions. Someone who is depressed is more likely to miss the generalities and focus on the potential source of their discomfort. With it I could suggest a myriad of unremembered childhood events from abduction by UFO's to being touched by the horn of the invisible pink unicorn.

The only purpose for a questionnaire like this is to disregard the heath of the patient for the fantasy of the doctor.
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Old 12th March 2010, 01:23 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
Well you must have some form of long term episodic memory before 3. When my older kid was 2 he would often talk about things he had done several weeks (or even months) before. He wouldn't be able to tell you what he had for lunch earlier in the day, but would suddenly start talking about something he had done months ago. I think the point is that at this age, the memories don't tend to be rehearsed so much, so they are more likely to be forgotten and not make it to the more permanent (ie that will survive to adulthood) long term memory. My son, at the age of 6 now doesn't seem to be able to remember anything before age 3 now.

But anyway, though I doubt whether there is a fixed lower age limit of 3 years, I still think the idea of memories of babyhood and prebirth are nonsense.
As I dig into this I read Allessandro Piontellis book " twins from fetus to child" She looked at ultrasounds and followed the same kids up for 5 years. There was a twin whose twin died and as soon as he could move he went searching all around the house, looking for his twin. And there are a few stories elsewhere of young children as soon as they can speak clearly - 2-3 years - asking for their missing sister or brother. The parents report this but as you say, the children dont remember, they only remember their parents telling them about it. I think the word " memory" doesn't describe this exactly. I am using "imprint" but that doesn't say it exactly either.

I have read all the posts on this, thanks, but I still need to know how to apply critical thinking to this - my clients who have proof will not profit from hearing me say "this is all humbug" and how do I know that some kind of proof doesnt exist for the others?

The evidence is mounting up that there may be something in this - nothing absolutely convincing and incontrovertible, just lots of stories and hints. In my job I do try to take my clients seriously, so I don't insist on them providing proof before we discuss it. I want to research this and write it up: Its a critical thinking issue as I see it. Will that be at all possible with something so nebulous? I can't do a randomised control trial, for a start!

Where do I start? All advice welcomed
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Old 12th March 2010, 03:47 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by tishayton View Post
As I dig into this I read Allessandro Piontellis book " twins from fetus to child" She looked at ultrasounds and followed the same kids up for 5 years. There was a twin whose twin died and as soon as he could move he went searching all around the house, looking for his twin. And there are a few stories elsewhere of young children as soon as they can speak clearly - 2-3 years - asking for their missing sister or brother. The parents report this but as you say, the children dont remember, they only remember their parents telling them about it. I think the word " memory" doesn't describe this exactly. I am using "imprint" but that doesn't say it exactly either.

I have read all the posts on this, thanks, but I still need to know how to apply critical thinking to this - my clients who have proof will not profit from hearing me say "this is all humbug" and how do I know that some kind of proof doesnt exist for the others?

The evidence is mounting up that there may be something in this - nothing absolutely convincing and incontrovertible, just lots of stories and hints. In my job I do try to take my clients seriously, so I don't insist on them providing proof before we discuss it. I want to research this and write it up: Its a critical thinking issue as I see it. Will that be at all possible with something so nebulous? I can't do a randomised control trial, for a start!

Where do I start? All advice welcomed
Well, you might want to start by being honest. Barely any digging uncovered the fact that you wrote the questionnaire I mentioned earlier, edited an anthology on the subject and are about to release a book claiming that 10% of the population is a womb twin survivor (WOMB TWIN SURVIVORS: the lost twin in the Dream of the Womb). Since it isn't a critical examination of facts, maybe you could tell us what you are looking for.

If that doesn't appeal, perhaps you could point to some of this mounting evidence?
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Old 12th March 2010, 04:31 AM   #22
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Yes that is what I have been doing, but I badly need to start a scientific research programme of some sort to ground it all. I think there is something solid and worthwhile in all this, if I could only discover how to describe what I have found in ways that would satisfy the skeptics - hence these posts.

I want to research this properly and write up the research. All I have are stories, ideas, references, a few statistics (like the "1 in 10 people" you mentioned) and of course lots of clients coming in need of help. I published 70 of the stories, I'm writing about the ideas and the statistics in the new book, but I was hoping for some pointers to how to start a well-founded research exercise with this kind of nebulous material.

How could I do some kind of analysis of the stories and case studies, for example? I have several hundred now. It seems like an excellent resource, but I'm unsure how to tackle this or where to start!
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Old 12th March 2010, 04:45 AM   #23
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Tishayton, I'm confused. Under what circumstances are you granted enough authority to have clients, collect intimate stories and write a book on a subject, but by your own admission, you lack the skills and knowledge necessary to have authority on that subject?

Linda
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Old 12th March 2010, 05:19 AM   #24
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The concept and the work has come to me and I decided to work on it, that's all. I am a therapist and writer but I have not as yet developed the necessary skills to carry out a well founded research project, particularly using this kind of material. I am seeking help here so that I may learn a bit more about how to do it.

Your use of the word "authority" is interesting. I think authority is earned rather than granted, and I have not yet done enough work in this field yet to earn authority. In time, maybe - If I carry on learning.
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Old 12th March 2010, 05:28 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by tishayton View Post
I am a therapist and writer but I have not as yet developed the necessary skills to carry out a well founded research project, particularly using this kind of material.
The training for a legitimate therapist should include the necessary skills and knowledge to carry out this kind of project. If you lack those skills why are you attempting this project? If you lack legitimate training, why are you set up as a therapist? Why not obtain the necessary skills and knowledge before you set up a project where mentally fragile patients are potentially harmed by exposure to quackery (as Roma put it)?

Linda
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Old 12th March 2010, 06:19 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by tishayton View Post
There was a twin whose twin died and as soon as he could move he went searching all around the house, looking for his twin.
Rubbish. Children move long before they communicate - how does anyone know what he was searching for?
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Old 12th March 2010, 06:31 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Rubbish. Children move long before they communicate - how does anyone know what he was searching for?
Perhaps facilitated communication could be used...?
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Old 12th March 2010, 01:59 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by tishayton View Post
The concept and the work has come to me and I decided to work on it, that's all. I am a therapist and writer but I have not as yet developed the necessary skills to carry out a well founded research project, particularly using this kind of material. I am seeking help here so that I may learn a bit more about how to do it.

Your use of the word "authority" is interesting. I think authority is earned rather than granted, and I have not yet done enough work in this field yet to earn authority. In time, maybe - If I carry on learning.
See, there's your problem. You've got it all backwards. The order is something like:

Hypothesis
Gather evidence
Test hypothosis
Discover repeatable results
Prove theory
Apply theory
Write book
Start non-profit

You've got it upside down. Giving you a non-profit org, a blog, several books and a pseudo-medical practice based on an unproven theory. Worse, you have no intention of changing your mind. You are only looking for ways to collate suspect data in order to give yourself a greater appearance of authority.

This is quackery, pure and simple. You are harming people when they are at their most fragile and your goal is to reach 10% of the population with this nonsense.


(Anyone else who is curious about this should google Althea Hayton)
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Old 13th March 2010, 12:41 AM   #29
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[quote=bookitty;5712938]See, there's your problem. You've got it all backwards. The order is something like:

Hypothesis
Gather evidence
Test hypothosis
Discover repeatable results
Prove theory
Apply theory
Write book
Start non-profit

You've got it upside down.

Not so. If this list is anything like how it should be done then after 7 years I am at stage 4, having done it in the right order so far. That is a relief. The non profit obviously has nothing to do with the research, so I am surprised you mention it. I would like to "prove the theory" which is why I am here, seeking advice ( and so far not getting any) but this at least is a start.

Thanks.

I'm not sure if you know enough about my project to describe womb twin survivors as "fragile" and something - seemingly the entire idea? - as "nonsense." I often get these kind of remarks, like Im a quack, its rubbish, Im exploiting the vulnerable for my own ends etc.etc. from people who dont know about this work, (after all 90% of the population have no experience of it) I have heard all this before, so I will ignore it all and continue just for a while longer, to ask for help with this.

I have gathered a little data, enough to form a hypothesis. Now, as I continue to ask, how do I set about some well-founded research to formulate a theory from the hypothesis?
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Old 13th March 2010, 12:51 AM   #30
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[quote=tishayton;5714253]
Originally Posted by bookitty View Post
Now, as I continue to ask, how do I set about some well-founded research to formulate a theory from the hypothesis?
tishayton, you are in luck,
there is another new member of the JREF forum who
you seem to have a lot in common with.
He has written hundreds of papers,
a dozen books, and can certainly tell you
exactly what you want to hear.
Just go to his thread and click on his name to leave him
a private message:
the Dr.Colin Ross Million Dollar Challenge thread

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=167733

And tishayton,
please don't think we're picking on you,
as I can see you are very new on this skeptics site.
Just stay here a bit longer and you'll come to understand
how skeptics think.
We are just trying to help.
fls is a very smart person and you should listen to her advise.
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I only know what I want to know.

Last edited by Roma; 13th March 2010 at 01:05 AM.
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Old 13th March 2010, 03:56 AM   #31
bookitty
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Originally Posted by tishayton View Post
Originally Posted by bookitty View Post
See, there's your problem. You've got it all backwards. The order is something like:

Hypothesis
Gather evidence
Test hypothosis
Discover repeatable results
Prove theory
Apply theory
Write book
Start non-profit

You've got it upside down.
Not so. If this list is anything like how it should be done then after 7 years I am at stage 4, having done it in the right order so far. That is a relief. The non profit obviously has nothing to do with the research, so I am surprised you mention it. I would like to "prove the theory" which is why I am here, seeking advice ( and so far not getting any) but this at least is a start.

Thanks.

I'm not sure if you know enough about my project to describe womb twin survivors as "fragile" and something - seemingly the entire idea? - as "nonsense." I often get these kind of remarks, like Im a quack, its rubbish, Im exploiting the vulnerable for my own ends etc.etc. from people who dont know about this work, (after all 90% of the population have no experience of it) I have heard all this before, so I will ignore it all and continue just for a while longer, to ask for help with this.

I have gathered a little data, enough to form a hypothesis. Now, as I continue to ask, how do I set about some well-founded research to formulate a theory from the hypothesis?
At this point, you have only a hypothesis. One that is based on anecdotal evidence and your own bias. You have not given any solid scientific research to show that the fetus can remember a twin, or that, if this memory exists, it has any effect on the psyche. Worse, the anecdotal evidence you have collected is based on a questionnaire that places the emphasis on the mental health of the patient and not proof of pre-birth trauma. Take away the first part and it is applicable to anyone who is seeking therapy.

You have admitted that you do not know how to conduct research and yet you are passing yourself off as an expert. You are treating people, writing books, and taking money to support your non-profit organization based on nothing more than a hunch.

Lets say you go into a health food store, while there you speak to a woman who says she is a nutritionist but actually has no training in nutrition other than her work at the store. You mention your chronic back pain. She tells you to take massive doses of vitamin D. It is winter, you might have a slight deficiency. There are some studies that suggest a link. On the surface the science seems sound. Besides, she has recommended this to hundreds of people and they have all been helped. Because she has a title, you take her advice. But what if the real problem is that you have kidney disease and the overdose of vitamin D makes it worse?

You are doing the same thing as that nutritionist. Faking authority and offering an unproven cure for a symptom while having no idea about disease. You are abusing the trust of people who come to you because they feel (in your words) odd, different, crazy or missing something. These are signs of fragile mental health, and it's shocking that you can not recognise that.

But is this hypothetical research really why you are here? Your blog entry from March 12th (http://wombtwin-survivors.blogspot.com/) suggests otherwise. "I need to discover who my enemies are then I can "pick a fight and inflame passions and get noticed." (bolding your own.)
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Old 13th March 2010, 06:13 AM   #32
tishayton
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Originally Posted by bookitty View Post
At this point, you have only a hypothesis. One that is based on anecdotal evidence and your own bias. You have not given any solid scientific research to show that the fetus can remember a twin, or that, if this memory exists, it has any effect on the psyche. Worse, the anecdotal evidence you have collected is based on a questionnaire that places the emphasis on the mental health of the patient and not proof of pre-birth trauma. Take away the first part and it is applicable to anyone who is seeking therapy.

You have admitted that you do not know how to conduct research and yet you are passing yourself off as an expert. You are treating people, writing books, and taking money to support your non-profit organization based on nothing more than a hunch.

Lets say you go into a health food store, while there you speak to a woman who says she is a nutritionist but actually has no training in nutrition other than her work at the store. You mention your chronic back pain. She tells you to take massive doses of vitamin D. It is winter, you might have a slight deficiency. There are some studies that suggest a link. On the surface the science seems sound. Besides, she has recommended this to hundreds of people and they have all been helped. Because she has a title, you take her advice. But what if the real problem is that you have kidney disease and the overdose of vitamin D makes it worse?

You are doing the same thing as that nutritionist. Faking authority and offering an unproven cure for a symptom while having no idea about disease. You are abusing the trust of people who come to you because they feel (in your words) odd, different, crazy or missing something. These are signs of fragile mental health, and it's shocking that you can not recognise that.

But is this hypothetical research really why you are here? Your blog entry from March 12th (http://wombtwin-survivors.blogspot.com/) suggests otherwise. "I need to discover who my enemies are then I can "pick a fight and inflame passions and get noticed." (bolding your own.)
If you had read the whole blog post you would see that I decided not to take the advice given in that book. I need no enemies. I dont have to fight anyone to get this out there - its coming to me and its developing rapidly, almost week by week. Its hard to believe, certainly, but its not "paranormal," as someone here has implied.

I am told that you "are only trying to help". That's reassuring, at least.

I am indeed "learning how skeptics think" - will that be enough? Will that alone help me to formulate a sound research project?
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Old 13th March 2010, 01:29 PM   #33
Roma
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Originally Posted by tishayton View Post
but its not "paranormal," as someone here has implied.
tishayton I wasn't implying that you were "paranormal" when I said that you had a lot in common with Dr.Colin Ross.

What I was implying is that you and Dr.Colin Ross are exploiting vulnerable people for your own purposes through fraudulent therapy.
Both of you cling onto refuted and unscientific thoughts and beliefs as if they were a religion to be worshipped uncritically.
You support your delusions through a network of others within that cult.
You encourage mentally fragile and easily manipulated people to convert to your beliefs by fraudualently claiming authority in an area that you have no authority in.
You iatrogenically produced false survivors or twins and documented your results while maintaining your self annointed authourity which ultimately perpetuates this quackery.
That is what you have in common with Dr.Colin Ross.


I strongly urge you to reconsider the path you are on now so that you won't have other things in common with Dr. Colin Ross:
1) lawsuits
2) ridicule from true authority
3) a life wasted

You are still young and have good intentions, I am only guessing.
You have the time and passion to take the right path to become a well educated therapist and acredited authority as fls encouraged you to do.
The JREF forum members here will be right there with you, encouraging you and supporting you if you reconsider and go back to school.
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Old 13th March 2010, 02:06 PM   #34
bookitty
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Originally Posted by Roma View Post

You are still young and have good intentions, I am only guessing.
You have the time and passion to take the right path to become a well educated therapist and acredited authority as fls encouraged you to do.
The JREF forum members here will be right there with you, encouraging you and supporting you if you reconsider and go back to school.
Exactly.

This group can also help you research the medical groundwork you'll need. i.e. scientific method, issues with false memories in psychotherapy and fetal cognitive function, to name a few.
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Old 13th March 2010, 02:33 PM   #35
fls
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tishayton,

Take the information you have collected and present your case to a legitimate psychologist at an academic institution. If they think your idea is worthwhile, they will have the knowledge and experience necessary to proceed with exploring and testing the idea. You are not going to be able to educate yourself by listening to a half-dozen anonymous posters on an internet forum.

It is not ethical behaviour to offer therapy based on an idea which has not undergone adequate testing.

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Old 13th March 2010, 06:12 PM   #36
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Quote:
QUOTE=tishayton;5707883] I am working as a therapist with people
Do you have formal training as a therapist? Do you have a degree in psychology/psychiatry/social work? If not then you have no business working as a therapist or claiming you are one. If you do have a university degree then you should know how to do research.
Quote:
Some have proof of their lost twin and others don't - or cant get hold of it because their mother has died or wont say etc.
Or they are just making up something in order to have some kind of 'explanation' to how they are feeling. Same way people make up stories about past lives, UFO's or other imaginary trauma's in order to create some credibility for themselves. As therapist we are to discourage this and offer some more effective coping mechanisms to address depression/anxiety/whatever.

Quote:
I have been talking to experts,
Which ones? What research have they done?

Originally Posted by tishayton View Post
its coming to me and its developing rapidly, almost week by week. Its hard to believe,
It is not hard to believe. A lot of people buy into these woo theories (crystal children, indigo, MPD, alien abduction, reiki). Especially because you can't prove them, it makes you sound interesting and deep and you don't have to deal with reality because you have a made up issue that you can spend all your time with. however the fact that you have followers DOES NOT MAKE WHAT YOU BELIEVE REAL.

Quote:
I am indeed "learning how skeptics think" - will that be enough? Will that alone help me to formulate a sound research project?
No, getting an education would.

Just to reiterate what bookitty said an what you conveniently chose to ignore (not a good research trait I will add) :

* At this point, you have only a hypothesis. One that is based on anecdotal evidence and your own bias.
* You have not given any solid scientific research to show that the fetus can remember a twin, or that, if this memory exists, it has any effect on the psyche.
*the anecdotal evidence you have collected is based on a questionnaire that places the emphasis on the mental health of the patient and not proof of pre-birth trauma. Take away the first part and it is applicable to anyone who is seeking therapy.
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Last edited by Kariboo; 13th March 2010 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 13th March 2010, 06:29 PM   #37
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From your website
Quote:
Some womb twin survivors have definite proof of their twin and some do not. Only the respondents who had proof were included in this analysis. There were shades of response to the list of statements, fromA which was the strongest to D which was the weakest. Only the As and Bs were chosen. The top five answers, made by people with proof of their lost twin and who answered A or B, were discovered. The picture that emerges from this analysis is distinct and seems quite reasonable, as long as one assumes that some kind of pre-birth impression of the lost twin does remain in the mind of the survivor.

[Many thanks to the Statistics Department of the University of Hertfordshire for this analysis. ]

76% agreed strongly with: "All my life I have felt as if something is missing."
73% agreed strongly with "I fear rejection."
70% agreed strongly with this idea: "I know I am not realising my true potential."
65% gave a strong response to: "I feel different from other people."
68% agreed strongly with the statement: "I have been searching for something all my life but I donít know what it is".
65% agreed strongly with the statement: "Deep down, I feel alone, even when I am among friends."
65% agreed strongly with the statement "I fear abandonment."
Here are your problems

1) You don't have a control group.
2) You do not have a control group
3) You didn't have a control group
4) I don't think I can say often enough that you don't have a control group.

If you don't understand how important this is : step slowly away from whatever 'research' you are doing.

I dare you to interview a couple of hundred depressed people/teenagers/midlife crisis people and find statistically different outcomes

This is not even worth the paper it was written on.

also as long as one assumes that some kind of pre-birth impression of the lost twin does remain in the mind of the survivor. proof??? Any?? Assuming is not part of research

<<<<<<<YOU HAVE NO CONTROL GROUP>>>>>>>
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Old 13th March 2010, 07:37 PM   #38
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Judging from Mrs. Hayton's MO, we probably won't see her again. She tends to do a hit and run immediately before the publication of a new book. Obviously she's not looking for real feedback. Just another quack dropping by to brag about their specific unscientific scam. How do these people sleep at night?
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Old 13th March 2010, 08:25 PM   #39
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I just wanted to note that she does not have a hypothesis. At best, it can be called an idea. A hypothesis is a statement which describes/explains a relationship in a way that allows it to be tested. That is, the results of the test can serve to confirm (in a non-trivial manner) and/or disconfirm the hypothesis. The sample given earlier, of a description of the responses given to a set of questions, did not serve as a test, as any set of answers would be applicable to the idea.

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Old 13th March 2010, 08:27 PM   #40
fls
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Originally Posted by bookitty View Post
Judging from Mrs. Hayton's MO, we probably won't see her again. She tends to do a hit and run immediately before the publication of a new book. Obviously she's not looking for real feedback. Just another quack dropping by to brag about their specific unscientific scam. How do these people sleep at night?
I'm a bit curious as to why it looks like she has two different JREF accounts.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ad.php?t=74837

I thought that was a violation of the membership agreement?

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