Trump's Coup d'état. - Page 2

Thermal · 11th November 2020, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Not sure why these things keep getting brought up. SCOTUS already ruled, faithless electors are not legal.

IIRC, the Court ruled that States can slap a faithless elector with a fine and enforce existing laws, and replace them in the EC, not that they were illegal votes

dmaker · 11th November 2020, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Trump doesn't drink beer.

Yeah, but he is quite the putsch.

timhau · 11th November 2020, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Trump doesn't drink beer.

He's got people for that (Kavanaugh).

DevilsAdvocate · 11th November 2020, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

But wait, there's more.

If Trump cannot prevail in lawsuits in PA and other swing states, he can perhaps convince GOP-majority state legislatures to appoint slates of electors in lieu of the ones chosen by voters.

I previously wrote a post speculating that could happen. I was wrong.

The legislature has the authority to establish the rule for choosing the electors. They can pretty much do it how ever they want. However, the laws have to be established prior to election day (well, they can do it after but it would make the appointment of electors inconclusive).

It is the governor who has the authority over certification of the electors. The legislature could choose to establish their own slate of electors. The governor could then submit his own.

The U.S. Constitution specifically lays out what happens in that case. The U.S. House and Senate would each vote on which slate of electors to accept. If the House and Senate do not agree, the electors certified by the state executive (the governor) are accepted.

Governor could get up to some shenanigans, but out of WI, PA, NV, AZ, and GA only AZ and GA have Republican Governors, which (it currently appears) isn't enough to change the outcome of the election.

Cain · 11th November 2020, 02:20 PM

A Trump coup would be over before it began. His people are not keyed into the Deep State. Trump seeks attention more than power. It'd be easier to sell Cheeto von Tweeto on another "comeback" narrative. He can call it "My Struggle."

Cavemonster · 11th November 2020, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

IIRC, the Court ruled that States can slap a faithless elector with a fine and enforce existing laws, and replace them in the EC, not that they were illegal votes

Just to expand a little. Only 33 states have laws against faithless electors.
Georgia and Pennsylvania are among those that don't.

And of those 33, only 14 have laws that cancel and replace a faithless vote.
Wisconsin has a law, but no penalty or cancellation.

https://www.fairvote.org/faithless_elector_state_laws

It was on my mind more when it looked like Biden may have had the bare 270.
If just one elector had dropped ship (say to vote for Bernie Sanders) then no candidate would have the required 270 and congress would select the winners. That would mean a President Biden with his Vice president Pence.

Since we're higher above that threshhold, we'd need a bunch of states flipping and a ridiculous amount of elector defection to change the outcome. Nothing's impossible, but pretty unlikely.

Cavemonster · 11th November 2020, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Cain

A Trump coup would be over before it began. His people are not keyed into the Deep State. Trump seeks attention more than power. It'd be easier to sell Cheeto von Tweeto on another "comeback" narrative. He can call it "My Struggle."

Terrible title. He needs to play up his underdog, outsider status a little more. Highlight the immigration journey his family took. How does that translate to German?

d4m10n · 11th November 2020, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate

Governor could get up to some shenanigans, but out of WI, PA, NV, AZ, and GA only AZ and GA have Republican Governors, which (it currently appears) isn't enough to change the outcome of the election.

So all they really need is for Trump-appointed justices to throw out the results in PA (based on this theory) along with GOP state legislatures to overturn the electors in AZ and GA. Boom.

Thermal · 11th November 2020, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by Cavemonster

Just to expand a little. Only 33 states have laws against faithless electors.
Georgia and Pennsylvania are among those that don't.

And of those 33, only 14 have laws that cancel and replace a faithless vote.
Wisconsin has a law, but no penalty or cancellation.

https://www.fairvote.org/faithless_elector_state_laws

It was on my mind more whe
n it looked like Biden may have had the bare 270.
If just one elector had dropped ship (say to vote for Bernie Sanders) then no candidate would have the required 270 and congress would select the winners. That would mean a President Biden with his Vice president Pence.

Since we're higher above that threshhold, we'd need a bunch of states flipping and a ridiculous amount of elector defection to change the outcome. Nothing's impossible, but pretty unlikely.

Yes, and again IIRC, some of the faithless electors were making a symbolic protest vote, and knew they weren't flipping the table. A few saying "Trump? Hell no" and "I luv Bern" but knowing it wouldn't have teeth in the final count.

Cavemonster · 11th November 2020, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Yes, and again IIRC, some of the faithless electors were making a symbolic protest vote, and knew they weren't flipping the table. A few saying "Trump? Hell no" and "I luv Bern" but knowing it wouldn't have teeth in the final count.

I don't believe faithless electors have ever effected the president. However, Maga Koolaid is STRONG stuff. And these "I used to be a democrat until Trump swept me off my feet" guys are real. A friend of mine was married to one.

If the election really was one secret MAGA hat away from being stolen, I don't know how well I'd be sleeping.

Thermal · 11th November 2020, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Cavemonster

I don't believe faithless electors have ever effected the president. However, Maga Koolaid is STRONG stuff. And these "I used to be a democrat until Trump swept me off my feet" guys are real. A friend of mine was married to one.

If the election really was one secret MAGA hat away from being stolen, I don't know how well I'd be sleeping.

Tru dat. Especially if s/he was in an unregulated State and their flip would immortalize them and change the course of history. All the more reason to regulate an EC voter's options at the State level for any eventuality

angrysoba · 11th November 2020, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I think ww are into Disaster Porn here.

Yep, what next? Exhortations to buy rilfes and ammo and take up arms, presumably.

angrysoba · 11th November 2020, 04:23 PM

There may actually be something to be concerned about here....

Quote:

Washington (CNN)The Trump administration has carried out sweeping changes atop the Defense Department's civilian leadership structure, removing several of its most senior officials and replacing them with perceived loyalists to the President.

The flurry of changes, announced by the Department of Defense in a statement roughly 24 hours after President Donald Trump fired Defense Secretary Mark Esper, have put officials inside the Pentagon on edge and fueled a growing sense of alarm among military and civilian officials, who are concerned about what could come next.

Link

Mader Levap · 11th November 2020, 04:35 PM

In my opinion, Trump is too big coward to do anything drastic. He will do anything that he can get away with, though.

The Atheist · 11th November 2020, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by Cain

A Trump coup would be over before it began. His people are not keyed into the Deep State. Trump seeks attention more than power. It'd be easier to sell Cheeto von Tweeto on another "comeback" narrative. He can call it "My Struggle."

Nice.

slyjoe · 11th November 2020, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

There may actually be something to be concerned about here....

Quote:

Quote:
Washington (CNN)The Trump administration has carried out sweeping changes atop the Defense Department's civilian leadership structure, removing several of its most senior officials and replacing them with perceived loyalists to the President.

The flurry of changes, announced by the Department of Defense in a statement roughly 24 hours after President Donald Trump fired Defense Secretary Mark Esper, have put officials inside the Pentagon on edge and fueled a growing sense of alarm among military and civilian officials, who are concerned about what could come next.

I didn't think the Secretary of Defense was in the chain of command.

ETA: After reading a little bit, now I'm not sure.

slyjoe · 11th November 2020, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Cain

A Trump coup would be over before it began. His people are not keyed into the Deep State. Trump seeks attention more than power. It'd be easier to sell Cheeto von Tweeto on another "comeback" narrative. He can call it "My Struggle."

My Jihad?

dirtywick · 11th November 2020, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by slyjoe

I didn't think the Secretary of Defense was in the chain of command.

ETA: After reading a little bit, now I'm not sure.

Yeah he’s #2 to the president.

Skeptic Ginger · 11th November 2020, 05:35 PM

For the fear mongerers that keep suggesting state legislators are possibly going to overturn their own state's vote and send in either faithless electors, or simply call the state for Trumpy:

Name the states that are planning this. Post the evidence they are planning this. Post some evidence always Trumpers are planning a faithless elector coup.

Moving on to the evidence-based fear mongering

: What is Trump planning by changing the civilian heads of the Pentagon and other departments?[indent]Is it petty revenge?
Is it to move the troops out from overseas and if so is it from (multiple votes allowed):

Germany
North Korea (maybe a parting gift to little Kim?)
Afghanistan
Iraq
Somewhere else

Is it a plan (whether realistic or not) to stay in office by

Stalling certification of EC votes
Declaring Martial Law
A coup (attempted or not)

Skeptic Ginger · 11th November 2020, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by Mader Levap

In my opinion, Trump is too big coward to do anything drastic. He will do anything that he can get away with, though.

I think that lends toward withdrawing some troops.

Petty revenge would still be on the table.

cosmicaug · 11th November 2020, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Is it a plan (whether realistic or not) to stay in office by

Stalling certification of EC votes
Declaring Martial Law
A coup (attempted or not)

Isn't it already established that 2 lawsuits seek to block certification in 2 states (PA & MI)? Of course, the courts are laughing in his face since they are providing no justification.

cosmicaug · 11th November 2020, 05:43 PM

Relevant article:
https://www.lawfareblog.com/how-hard-it-overturn-american-election

Safe-Keeper · 11th November 2020, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by dmaker

Recent events in the US have closed that academic vs real world feel gap. Now I understand better how regimes like that start to rise.

It's pretty scary.

When facism comes to America it will be holding a Bible and humping a flag. Or however the saying goes.

Skeptic Ginger · 11th November 2020, 05:49 PM

Re faithless electors:

Fox9

Quote:

SCOTUS affirmed that state laws binding electors were constitutional. This ruling left in place laws in 33 states and the District of Columbia that bind electors to vote for the popular-vote winner.

That doesn't sound like it was only a ruling on the penalty.

Not sure what happens to the vote if they do it anyway. I would think Biden could file a lawsuit if it mattered.

slyjoe · 11th November 2020, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by dirtywick

Yeah he’s #2 to the president.

Thanks. Maybe I was thinking of the VP. I also read the SecDef is the "assistant" to the president.

Trebuchet · 11th November 2020, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Moving on to the evidence-based fear mongering

: What is Trump planning by changing the civilian heads of the Pentagon and other departments?[indent]Is it petty revenge?
Is it to move the troops out from overseas and if so is it from (multiple votes allowed):

Germany
North Korea (maybe a parting gift to little Kim?)
Afghanistan
Iraq
Somewhere else

Is it a plan (whether realistic or not) to stay in office by

Stalling certification of EC votes
Declaring Martial Law
A coup (attempted or not)

South Korea, obviously rather than North.
No significant US Troops in Iraq any more, I think. Because Commie Muslim Obama pulled them out, although we have advisors there and are probably doing air stikes from elsewhere. Pulling them out of NATO countries, not just Germany is likely. South Korea very likely. Afghanistan not unlikely.

As for the second part, he wanted to send troops into Portland last summer but the SecDef forestalled him. Pretty much any sort of protest and he can do it now, Martial Law or no. That'll lead to more unrest giving him an excuse for nationwide martial law. Once that's declared opponents and journalists can be arrested.

Trebuchet · 11th November 2020, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Mader Levap

In my opinion, Trump is too big coward to do anything drastic. He will do anything that he can get away with, though.

He's a physical coward. He's perfectly happy tell his supporters and the police to assault protesters. Like using other people's money, he's happy to shed other people's blood.

The Atheist · 11th November 2020, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by cosmicaug

Isn't it already established that 2 lawsuits seek to block certification in 2 states (PA & MI)? Of course, the courts are laughing in his face since they are providing no justification.

That proves the courts are part of the conspiracy.

Get rid of them immediately.

alfaniner · 11th November 2020, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

Trump is installing loyalists in top positions of the military and Pentagon.

I've heard that referred to as "dictator moves". This of course follows all the "dick moves" he's been making since Day 1.

AnonyMoose · 11th November 2020, 06:29 PM

The "country before party" republicans no longer exist.

To be perfectly honest, I now question the sincerity of those words and if perhaps they've always been nothing more than lip service amidst the GOP. Because their actions over the decades (and even more so these past couple of decades) indicates that very thing, nothing but lip service fed to the masses to continue emoting the illusion of "for the people".

Bottom line, Trump cannot pull of a coup d'etat on his own. But with a little help from his friends (the above GOP that I mentioned), it is quite possible that he/they can pull it off. If he didn't think it was doable, he wouldn't be attempting to do so as we speak.

Let's be honest with ourselves here.... Every rule, every law, every policy, and every 'norm' can be turned on its head with the right maneuvers from the right group of individuals. Dump enough money, connections, and like-minded corrupt individuals into anything and anyone can turn the entire planet on its head if they so wish.

Just my 2 pence worth.

sackett · 11th November 2020, 06:31 PM

Somebody on FacePie opines that Donnie is bringing in Rent-a-Lackeys to destroy files. That sounds more likely than anything as manly as a coup.

Mumbles · 11th November 2020, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

1 - Continue to refuse to accept the result.
2 - Issue executive order banning the Electoral College from gathering.
3 - Wait for riots to start.
4 - Engage military to quell riots.
5 - Declare Martial Law.
6 - Accept Putin's congratulations.

Ta-da!

Not happening. Even the most recent appointments seem aimed more at covering up criminal activity than at any sort of coup. 2 and 4 on your list are flatly not going to happen. Expect Orange Badman to throw plates at walls, refuse to appear at any inauguration, and spend however long brazenly lying about his popularity - exactly the same as he did about his inauguration size, the "millions" of "illegals" voting in California, and so on. In other words, the same hissy fit he's been throwing for the past decade.

Skeptic Ginger · 11th November 2020, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by cosmicaug

Relevant article:
https://www.lawfareblog.com/how-hard-it-overturn-american-election

Answers a lot of questions about states not turning over their state's votes.

Skeptic Ginger · 11th November 2020, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by cosmicaug

Isn't it already established that 2 lawsuits seek to block certification in 2 states (PA & MI)? Of course, the courts are laughing in his face since they are providing no justification.

I think there are about 12 now, none of which have been successful.

AnonyMoose · 11th November 2020, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by Mumbles

Not happening. Even the most recent appointments seem aimed more at covering up criminal activity than at any sort of coup. 2 and 4 on your list are flatly not going to happen. Expect Orange Badman to throw plates at walls, refuse to appear at any inauguration, and spend however long brazenly lying about his popularity - exactly the same as he did about his inauguration size, the "millions" of "illegals" voting in California, and so on. In other words, the same hissy fit he's been throwing for the past decade.

Do you really truly honestly believe that this is just Trump throwing another hissy fit? Do you really truly honestly believe that the majority of the republican party would publicly air their fullblown support for something that amounts to nothing more than a hissy fit that has zero chance of getting anywhere?

Come on... surely you guys don't believe the GOP would be in support of something that has no means to an end?

The GOP are corrupt ********, yes, but they're not stupid corrupt ********. There's a difference.

dirtywick · 11th November 2020, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Moving on to the evidence-based fear mongering

: What is Trump planning by changing the civilian heads of the Pentagon and other departments?[indent]Is it petty revenge?
Is it to move the troops out from overseas and if so is it from (multiple votes allowed):

Germany
North Korea (maybe a parting gift to little Kim?)
Afghanistan
Iraq
Somewhere else

Is it a plan (whether realistic or not) to stay in office by

Stalling certification of EC votes
Declaring Martial Law
A coup (attempted or not)

You know, who knows what's going to happen or what he's planning or thinking? I'm just saying, if you made a line and put 0 on one side and 100 on the other, and put your finger on it on how likely it is for Trump to stage a coup, after hearing he's restructuring the pentagon, FBI, and CIA, you'd have to move your finger more towards the 100 than the 0.

angrysoba · 11th November 2020, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by slyjoe

I didn't think the Secretary of Defense was in the chain of command.

ETA: After reading a little bit, now I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by dirtywick

Yeah he’s #2 to the president.

Originally Posted by slyjoe

Thanks. Maybe I was thinking of the VP. I also read the SecDef is the "assistant" to the president.

This is why, I think, it is potentially worrying....

Quote:

Why did Trump fall out with his defence secretary?
Mr Esper clashed with the president over the White House's attitude to the military during protests over racial injustice earlier this year.

As protests rocked the US following the death of black man George Floyd at the hands of police in Minneapolis, Minnesota, in May, Mr Trump threatened to use troops to suppress unrest.

In June, Mr Esper, a former army officer, said the use of active-duty forces was unnecessary, in remarks that were known to have displeased the White House.

Following the clash, it was widely-speculated that the president would fire the defence secretary, although on Monday Mr Trump gave no reason for his dismissal.

Link

Unnecessary? Or even illegal if the state governors don't want the US Army in its streets, right?

Would his replacement be more willing to allow Trump to do what wants in terms of deploying troops?

Oh well, maybe I am overthinking this, but it does seem the type of thing that someone might do if they wanted a compliant military in a coup, right?

dudalb · 11th November 2020, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Yep, what next? Exhortations to buy rilfes and ammo and take up arms, presumably.

ALways as a last resort..and besides,target shooting is a fun hobby.
I just don't see Trump being able to pull off a coup of any kind in this situation.

dirtywick · 11th November 2020, 07:25 PM

Sure, a key first step would be controlling the military. Of course, there are many other steps he must take and many people have to cooperate with him to do so, none of which is very clear right now. He certainly has some full support, and some carefully worded support from a lot of people. At the same time, does anyone not see a world where Trump starts to demand an arrest warrant for Joe Biden and some of the GOP goes along with it?

angrysoba · 11th November 2020, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

ALways as a last resort..and besides,target shooting is a fun hobby.

Of course it is. Especially when the targets wear MAGA hats. LOL! Just kidding.

Originally Posted by dudalb

I just don't see Trump being able to pull off a coup of any kind in this situation.

I don't either, but his behaviour is looking pretty consistent with an attempt. I mean if you assumed he wasn't thinking of a coup, what would he do? And if he was thinking of a coup, what would he do? Which one does his current behaviour most resemble?

11th November 2020, 01:53 PM	#41
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,527	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Not sure why these things keep getting brought up. SCOTUS already ruled, faithless electors are not legal. IIRC, the Court ruled that States can slap a faithless elector with a fine and enforce existing laws, and replace them in the EC, not that they were illegal votes
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

11th November 2020, 02:04 PM	#43
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I? Posts: 14,474	Originally Posted by Trebuchet Trump doesn't drink beer. He's got people for that (Kavanaugh).
	__________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

11th November 2020, 02:14 PM	#44
DevilsAdvocate Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,449	Originally Posted by d4m10n But wait, there's more. If Trump cannot prevail in lawsuits in PA and other swing states, he can perhaps convince GOP-majority state legislatures to appoint slates of electors in lieu of the ones chosen by voters. I previously wrote a post speculating that could happen. I was wrong. The legislature has the authority to establish the rule for choosing the electors. They can pretty much do it how ever they want. However, the laws have to be established prior to election day (well, they can do it after but it would make the appointment of electors inconclusive). It is the governor who has the authority over certification of the electors. The legislature could choose to establish their own slate of electors. The governor could then submit his own. The U.S. Constitution specifically lays out what happens in that case. The U.S. House and Senate would each vote on which slate of electors to accept. If the House and Senate do not agree, the electors certified by the state executive (the governor) are accepted. Governor could get up to some shenanigans, but out of WI, PA, NV, AZ, and GA only AZ and GA have Republican Governors, which (it currently appears) isn't enough to change the outcome of the election.
	__________________ I don't need to fight to prove I'm right. - Baba O'Riley

11th November 2020, 02:20 PM	#45
Cain Straussian Join Date: May 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 14,278	A Trump coup would be over before it began. His people are not keyed into the Deep State. Trump seeks attention more than power. It'd be easier to sell Cheeto von Tweeto on another "comeback" narrative. He can call it "My Struggle."
	__________________ April 13th, 2018: Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years.

11th November 2020, 02:44 PM	#46
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,534	Originally Posted by Thermal IIRC, the Court ruled that States can slap a faithless elector with a fine and enforce existing laws, and replace them in the EC, not that they were illegal votes Just to expand a little. Only 33 states have laws against faithless electors. Georgia and Pennsylvania are among those that don't. And of those 33, only 14 have laws that cancel and replace a faithless vote. Wisconsin has a law, but no penalty or cancellation. https://www.fairvote.org/faithless_elector_state_laws It was on my mind more when it looked like Biden may have had the bare 270. If just one elector had dropped ship (say to vote for Bernie Sanders) then no candidate would have the required 270 and congress would select the winners. That would mean a President Biden with his Vice president Pence. Since we're higher above that threshhold, we'd need a bunch of states flipping and a ridiculous amount of elector defection to change the outcome. Nothing's impossible, but pretty unlikely.
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,534	__________________ The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON Last edited by Cavemonster; 11th November 2020 at 02:56 PM.

11th November 2020, 01:54 PM	#42
dmaker Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,686	Originally Posted by Trebuchet Trump doesn't drink beer. Yeah, but he is quite the putsch.

11th November 2020, 02:46 PM	#47
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,534	Originally Posted by Cain A Trump coup would be over before it began. His people are not keyed into the Deep State. Trump seeks attention more than power. It'd be easier to sell Cheeto von Tweeto on another "comeback" narrative. He can call it "My Struggle." Terrible title. He needs to play up his underdog, outsider status a little more. Highlight the immigration journey his family took. How does that translate to German?
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,534	__________________ The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON

11th November 2020, 02:53 PM	#48
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 6,417	Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate Governor could get up to some shenanigans, but out of WI, PA, NV, AZ, and GA only AZ and GA have Republican Governors, which (it currently appears) isn't enough to change the outcome of the election. So all they really need is for Trump-appointed justices to throw out the results in PA (based on this theory) along with GOP state legislatures to overturn the electors in AZ and GA. Boom.
	__________________ "Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

11th November 2020, 02:53 PM	#49
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,527	Originally Posted by Cavemonster Just to expand a little. Only 33 states have laws against faithless electors. Georgia and Pennsylvania are among those that don't. And of those 33, only 14 have laws that cancel and replace a faithless vote. Wisconsin has a law, but no penalty or cancellation. https://www.fairvote.org/faithless_elector_state_laws It was on my mind more whe n it looked like Biden may have had the bare 270. If just one elector had dropped ship (say to vote for Bernie Sanders) then no candidate would have the required 270 and congress would select the winners. That would mean a President Biden with his Vice president Pence. Since we're higher above that threshhold, we'd need a bunch of states flipping and a ridiculous amount of elector defection to change the outcome. Nothing's impossible, but pretty unlikely. Yes, and again IIRC, some of the faithless electors were making a symbolic protest vote, and knew they weren't flipping the table. A few saying "Trump? Hell no" and "I luv Bern" but knowing it wouldn't have teeth in the final count.
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

11th November 2020, 03:01 PM	#50
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,534	Originally Posted by Thermal Yes, and again IIRC, some of the faithless electors were making a symbolic protest vote, and knew they weren't flipping the table. A few saying "Trump? Hell no" and "I luv Bern" but knowing it wouldn't have teeth in the final count. I don't believe faithless electors have ever effected the president. However, Maga Koolaid is STRONG stuff. And these "I used to be a democrat until Trump swept me off my feet" guys are real. A friend of mine was married to one. If the election really was one secret MAGA hat away from being stolen, I don't know how well I'd be sleeping.
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,534	__________________ The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON

11th November 2020, 03:16 PM	#51
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,527	Originally Posted by Cavemonster I don't believe faithless electors have ever effected the president. However, Maga Koolaid is STRONG stuff. And these "I used to be a democrat until Trump swept me off my feet" guys are real. A friend of mine was married to one. If the election really was one secret MAGA hat away from being stolen, I don't know how well I'd be sleeping. Tru dat. Especially if s/he was in an unregulated State and their flip would immortalize them and change the course of history. All the more reason to regulate an EC voter's options at the State level for any eventuality
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

11th November 2020, 03:49 PM	#52
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,397	Originally Posted by dudalb I think ww are into Disaster Porn here. Yep, what next? Exhortations to buy rilfes and ammo and take up arms, presumably.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

11th November 2020, 04:23 PM	#53
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,397	There may actually be something to be concerned about here.... Quote: Washington (CNN)The Trump administration has carried out sweeping changes atop the Defense Department's civilian leadership structure, removing several of its most senior officials and replacing them with perceived loyalists to the President. The flurry of changes, announced by the Department of Defense in a statement roughly 24 hours after President Donald Trump fired Defense Secretary Mark Esper, have put officials inside the Pentagon on edge and fueled a growing sense of alarm among military and civilian officials, who are concerned about what could come next. Link
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

11th November 2020, 04:35 PM	#54
Mader Levap Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 1,576	In my opinion, Trump is too big coward to do anything drastic. He will do anything that he can get away with, though.
	__________________ Sanity is overrated. / Voting for Republicans is morally equivalent to voting for Nazis in early 30's.

11th November 2020, 04:39 PM	#55
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 28,324	Originally Posted by Cain A Trump coup would be over before it began. His people are not keyed into the Deep State. Trump seeks attention more than power. It'd be easier to sell Cheeto von Tweeto on another "comeback" narrative. He can call it "My Struggle." Nice.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

11th November 2020, 05:07 PM	#56
slyjoe Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ Posts: 2,561	Originally Posted by angrysoba There may actually be something to be concerned about here.... Quote: Quote: Washington (CNN)The Trump administration has carried out sweeping changes atop the Defense Department's civilian leadership structure, removing several of its most senior officials and replacing them with perceived loyalists to the President. The flurry of changes, announced by the Department of Defense in a statement roughly 24 hours after President Donald Trump fired Defense Secretary Mark Esper, have put officials inside the Pentagon on edge and fueled a growing sense of alarm among military and civilian officials, who are concerned about what could come next. I didn't think the Secretary of Defense was in the chain of command. ETA: After reading a little bit, now I'm not sure.
	__________________ "You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade Last edited by slyjoe; 11th November 2020 at 05:11 PM.

11th November 2020, 05:12 PM	#57
slyjoe Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ Posts: 2,561	Originally Posted by Cain A Trump coup would be over before it began. His people are not keyed into the Deep State. Trump seeks attention more than power. It'd be easier to sell Cheeto von Tweeto on another "comeback" narrative. He can call it "My Struggle." My Jihad?
	__________________ "You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade

11th November 2020, 05:14 PM	#58
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,131	Originally Posted by slyjoe I didn't think the Secretary of Defense was in the chain of command. ETA: After reading a little bit, now I'm not sure. Yeah he’s #2 to the president.
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,131

11th November 2020, 05:35 PM	#59
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,997	For the fear mongerers that keep suggesting state legislators are possibly going to overturn their own state's vote and send in either faithless electors, or simply call the state for Trumpy: Name the states that are planning this. Post the evidence they are planning this. Post some evidence always Trumpers are planning a faithless elector coup. Moving on to the evidence-based fear mongering : What is Trump planning by changing the civilian heads of the Pentagon and other departments?[indent]Is it petty revenge? Is it to move the troops out from overseas and if so is it from (multiple votes allowed): Germany North Korea (maybe a parting gift to little Kim?) Afghanistan Iraq Somewhere else Is it a plan (whether realistic or not) to stay in office by Stalling certification of EC votes Declaring Martial Law A coup (attempted or not)

11th November 2020, 05:37 PM	#60
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,997	Originally Posted by Mader Levap In my opinion, Trump is too big coward to do anything drastic. He will do anything that he can get away with, though. I think that lends toward withdrawing some troops. Petty revenge would still be on the table.

11th November 2020, 05:41 PM	#61
cosmicaug Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,464	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Is it a plan (whether realistic or not) to stay in office by Stalling certification of EC votes Declaring Martial Law A coup (attempted or not) Isn't it already established that 2 lawsuits seek to block certification in 2 states (PA & MI)? Of course, the courts are laughing in his face since they are providing no justification.
	__________________ -- August Pamplona

11th November 2020, 05:43 PM	#62
cosmicaug Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,464	Relevant article: https://www.lawfareblog.com/how-hard-it-overturn-american-election
	__________________ -- August Pamplona

11th November 2020, 05:46 PM	#63
Safe-Keeper Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Norway Posts: 10,395	Originally Posted by dmaker Recent events in the US have closed that academic vs real world feel gap. Now I understand better how regimes like that start to rise. It's pretty scary. When facism comes to America it will be holding a Bible and humping a flag. Or however the saying goes.
	__________________ "He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs "If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig

11th November 2020, 05:49 PM	#64
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,997	Re faithless electors: Fox9 Quote: SCOTUS affirmed that state laws binding electors were constitutional. This ruling left in place laws in 33 states and the District of Columbia that bind electors to vote for the popular-vote winner. That doesn't sound like it was only a ruling on the penalty. Not sure what happens to the vote if they do it anyway. I would think Biden could file a lawsuit if it mattered.

11th November 2020, 05:51 PM	#65
slyjoe Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ Posts: 2,561	Originally Posted by dirtywick Yeah he’s #2 to the president. Thanks. Maybe I was thinking of the VP. I also read the SecDef is the "assistant" to the president.
	__________________ "You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade

11th November 2020, 05:57 PM	#66
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 31,061	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Moving on to the evidence-based fear mongering : What is Trump planning by changing the civilian heads of the Pentagon and other departments?[indent]Is it petty revenge? Is it to move the troops out from overseas and if so is it from (multiple votes allowed): Germany North Korea (maybe a parting gift to little Kim?) Afghanistan Iraq Somewhere else Is it a plan (whether realistic or not) to stay in office by Stalling certification of EC votes Declaring Martial Law A coup (attempted or not) South Korea, obviously rather than North. No significant US Troops in Iraq any more, I think. Because Commie Muslim Obama pulled them out, although we have advisors there and are probably doing air stikes from elsewhere. Pulling them out of NATO countries, not just Germany is likely. South Korea very likely. Afghanistan not unlikely. As for the second part, he wanted to send troops into Portland last summer but the SecDef forestalled him. Pretty much any sort of protest and he can do it now, Martial Law or no. That'll lead to more unrest giving him an excuse for nationwide martial law. Once that's declared opponents and journalists can be arrested.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

11th November 2020, 06:00 PM	#67
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 31,061	Originally Posted by Mader Levap In my opinion, Trump is too big coward to do anything drastic. He will do anything that he can get away with, though. He's a physical coward. He's perfectly happy tell his supporters and the police to assault protesters. Like using other people's money, he's happy to shed other people's blood.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

11th November 2020, 06:10 PM	#68
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 28,324	Originally Posted by cosmicaug Isn't it already established that 2 lawsuits seek to block certification in 2 states (PA & MI)? Of course, the courts are laughing in his face since they are providing no justification. That proves the courts are part of the conspiracy. Get rid of them immediately.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

11th November 2020, 06:14 PM	#69
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 24,891	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken Trump is installing loyalists in top positions of the military and Pentagon. I've heard that referred to as "dictator moves". This of course follows all the "dick moves" he's been making since Day 1.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

11th November 2020, 06:29 PM	#70
AnonyMoose Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2018 Location: Land of the Frozen Chosen Posts: 1,002	The "country before party" republicans no longer exist. To be perfectly honest, I now question the sincerity of those words and if perhaps they've always been nothing more than lip service amidst the GOP. Because their actions over the decades (and even more so these past couple of decades) indicates that very thing, nothing but lip service fed to the masses to continue emoting the illusion of "for the people". Bottom line, Trump cannot pull of a coup d'etat on his own. But with a little help from his friends (the above GOP that I mentioned), it is quite possible that he/they can pull it off. If he didn't think it was doable, he wouldn't be attempting to do so as we speak. Let's be honest with ourselves here.... Every rule, every law, every policy, and every 'norm' can be turned on its head with the right maneuvers from the right group of individuals. Dump enough money, connections, and like-minded corrupt individuals into anything and anyone can turn the entire planet on its head if they so wish. Just my 2 pence worth.
	__________________ "Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps." ~ Emo Phillips

11th November 2020, 06:31 PM	#71
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 6,384	Somebody on FacePie opines that Donnie is bringing in Rent-a-Lackeys to destroy files. That sounds more likely than anything as manly as a coup.
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

11th November 2020, 06:39 PM	#72
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,430	Originally Posted by The Atheist 1 - Continue to refuse to accept the result. 2 - Issue executive order banning the Electoral College from gathering. 3 - Wait for riots to start. 4 - Engage military to quell riots. 5 - Declare Martial Law. 6 - Accept Putin's congratulations. Ta-da! Not happening. Even the most recent appointments seem aimed more at covering up criminal activity than at any sort of coup. 2 and 4 on your list are flatly not going to happen. Expect Orange Badman to throw plates at walls, refuse to appear at any inauguration, and spend however long brazenly lying about his popularity - exactly the same as he did about his inauguration size, the "millions" of "illegals" voting in California, and so on. In other words, the same hissy fit he's been throwing for the past decade.
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,430

11th November 2020, 06:42 PM	#73
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,997	Originally Posted by cosmicaug Relevant article: https://www.lawfareblog.com/how-hard-it-overturn-american-election Answers a lot of questions about states not turning over their state's votes.

11th November 2020, 06:44 PM	#74
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,997	Originally Posted by cosmicaug Isn't it already established that 2 lawsuits seek to block certification in 2 states (PA & MI)? Of course, the courts are laughing in his face since they are providing no justification. I think there are about 12 now, none of which have been successful.

11th November 2020, 06:49 PM	#75
AnonyMoose Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2018 Location: Land of the Frozen Chosen Posts: 1,002	Originally Posted by Mumbles Not happening. Even the most recent appointments seem aimed more at covering up criminal activity than at any sort of coup. 2 and 4 on your list are flatly not going to happen. Expect Orange Badman to throw plates at walls, refuse to appear at any inauguration, and spend however long brazenly lying about his popularity - exactly the same as he did about his inauguration size, the "millions" of "illegals" voting in California, and so on. In other words, the same hissy fit he's been throwing for the past decade. Do you really truly honestly believe that this is just Trump throwing another hissy fit? Do you really truly honestly believe that the majority of the republican party would publicly air their fullblown support for something that amounts to nothing more than a hissy fit that has zero chance of getting anywhere? Come on... surely you guys don't believe the GOP would be in support of something that has no means to an end? The GOP are corrupt ******, yes, but they're not stupid corrupt ******. There's a difference.
	__________________ "Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps." ~ Emo Phillips