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Tags Allan Kardec , life after death , spiritism , spiritualism

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Old 21st August 2019, 12:05 PM   #401
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
Since there is no "official science", there can be no "unofficial science". What you seem to be referring to are ideas not in agreement with the common current understanding. That would be every revolutionary advance in knowledge. The greatest scientists are the ones who discover, investigate, and verify new things beyond the current understanding.

If you have discovered such a thing, present it.
I have nothing to present! I close the debate
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Old 21st August 2019, 12:07 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I'm familiar with the Vietnamese version.
I have nothing to present! I close the debate
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Old 21st August 2019, 12:09 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
You should not discuss this in a skeptic forum! I close the debate!
The argument better known as, people are questioning me instead of just accepting what I say as gospel. If you won't play my game, I will take my toys and go home.
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Old 21st August 2019, 12:15 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by kali1137 View Post
The argument better known as, people are questioning me instead of just accepting what I say as gospel. If you won't play my game, I will take my toys and go home.
maybe in the future I will have arguments!
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Old 21st August 2019, 12:17 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
You should not discuss this in a skeptic forum! I close the debate!
Who's telling you you can't discuss standards of evidence in a skeptic's forum? This thread is about standards of evidence and methods of logical analysis, and which labels might serve to identify agreed-upon standards. If you're trying to propose some specific "spiritualist" theory, that should go in a different thread.

As for this thread, it appears you are unwilling and unable to support your accusation that forum members here amount to religious fanatics. In ending the debate, you should concede that inability and apologize for the insinuation.
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Old 21st August 2019, 12:23 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I understand ... this forum only accepts scientific proof ... so this kind of subject should not be discussed in a skepticism forum .. why didn't you warn me before?
Obviously you don't understand - but I do. You want to deride science because it does not support youre preconceptions regarding the existence of spirits.

Nobody is asking for "scientific proof" (whatever you are thinking it is when you use those words). Your inability to find actual evidence instead of anecdotes and assertions is a problem with your claim and has nothing to do with "Questioning Pseudo Skepticsm".

A book of anecdotes is still a book of anecdotes...
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Old 21st August 2019, 12:28 PM   #407
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I understand now ! Anyone can do science!

Yes, but to do science you need to do particular things. You need a to formulate testable and falsifiable hypothesis, and you need to figure out a way of testing it. And you need to be able to accept it if it is falsified.

And, to quote Richard Feynman, “you must not fool yourself – and you are the easiest person to fool.”
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Old 21st August 2019, 12:34 PM   #408
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Who's telling you you can't discuss standards of evidence in a skeptic's forum? This thread is about standards of evidence and methods of logical analysis, and which labels might serve to identify agreed-upon standards. If you're trying to propose some specific "spiritualist" theory, that should go in a different thread.

As for this thread, it appears you are unwilling and unable to support your accusation that forum members here amount to religious fanatics. In ending the debate, you should concede that inability and apologize for the insinuation.
okay ! sorry everyone
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Old 21st August 2019, 12:36 PM   #409
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
maybe in the future I will have arguments!

No you won’t.
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Old 21st August 2019, 12:39 PM   #410
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
okay ! sorry everyone
Thanks, that's more than we get from many claimants.
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Old 21st August 2019, 12:39 PM   #411
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Obviously you don't understand - but I do. You want to deride science because it does not support youre preconceptions regarding the existence of spirits.

Nobody is asking for "scientific proof" (whatever you are thinking it is when you use those words). Your inability to find actual evidence instead of anecdotes and assertions is a problem with your claim and has nothing to do with "Questioning Pseudo Skepticsm".

A book of anecdotes is still a book of anecdotes...
not ! I am not against science! I am for science! Science can't explain everything yet! but in the future she will be able to explain everything and prove the existence of spirits! and you being a skeptic will believe it! and if you don't believe me you'll be a pseudo skeptic!
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Old 21st August 2019, 01:07 PM   #412
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I have nothing to present!
That's the most sensible thing you've said so far.

You have nothing to present.


Quote:
I close the debate!
You've said this multiple times in the past couple of days, but keep rambling on and on and on and on and on....
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Old 21st August 2019, 01:12 PM   #413
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
not ! I am not against science! I am for science! Science can't explain everything yet! but in the future she will be able to explain everything and prove the existence of spirits! and you being a skeptic will believe it! and if you don't believe me you'll be a pseudo skeptic!
Or science may continue to fail to prove the existence of spirits despite continued efforts to misuse it to do so. If you are able to provide reliable, methodically testable, repeatable evidence for something, including spirits, you will find that skeptics will accept the proposition. You wrongly persist in the belief that skeptics disagree with you because of a priori belief rather than because you lack proper evidence. You won't have many productive discussions with skeptics as long as you make that mistake.
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Old 21st August 2019, 01:13 PM   #414
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
not ! I am not against science! I am for science!
But you do not understand or accept the role of evidence in science.
Quote:
Science can't explain everything yet!
Science will never be able to understand everything. It will always be possible to ask further questions of why, or how.

Quote:
but in the future she will be able to explain everything and prove the existence of spirits!
Science does not need to know everything to prove the existence of spirits. Credible evidence is enough, but a couple of hundred years of calls for such evidence has not resulted in evidence. You seem to think that every time somebody claims to have it, we should be just as excited as the first time somebody made this claim. However, we have heard this so often that we tend to think that this is more of the same that we have heard so often before, that we tend to dismiss it out of hand. I think this is understandable, and acceptable as long as there is nothing that points to the new evidence having more credibility than the busted evidence of the last couple of years.

If you just look at the last twenty years of this forum, you will find that the presented evidence for the existence of spirits has been based purely on worthless anecdotes. Why should we be excited when another person comes along and claims that this time, we have to believe him?

Quote:
and you being a skeptic will believe it! and if you don't believe me you'll be a pseudo skeptic!
If your evidence turns out to be worthless or non-existent, then we are pseudo-skeptics? Yeah, right ...
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Old 21st August 2019, 01:48 PM   #415
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
But you do not understand or accept the role of evidence in science.

Science will never be able to understand everything. It will always be possible to ask further questions of why, or how.


Science does not need to know everything to prove the existence of spirits. Credible evidence is enough, but a couple of hundred years of calls for such evidence has not resulted in evidence. You seem to think that every time somebody claims to have it, we should be just as excited as the first time somebody made this claim. However, we have heard this so often that we tend to think that this is more of the same that we have heard so often before, that we tend to dismiss it out of hand. I think this is understandable, and acceptable as long as there is nothing that points to the new evidence having more credibility than the busted evidence of the last couple of years.

If you just look at the last twenty years of this forum, you will find that the presented evidence for the existence of spirits has been based purely on worthless anecdotes. Why should we be excited when another person comes along and claims that this time, we have to believe him?



If your evidence turns out to be worthless or non-existent, then we are pseudo-skeptics? Yeah, right ...
I have no evidence. Future science will have the evidence of the existence of spirits! 22nd century science will make the discovery of spirits! how 19th century science made the discovery of viruses! and 20th century science visualized by electron microscopy in 1931 viruses! yes most skeptics will believe it, but a minority even in the face of evidence will not believe it, it is this minority that is pseudo-skeptics!
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Old 21st August 2019, 02:02 PM   #416
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If I may ask Ricardo, of what purpose will spirits serve in the 22nd century ?

What benefits or negative effects can we expect from them besides yawning?

Will siglo22 be a more enlightened time than we we know now that they will be actually useful?


I don't ask for hard science here. It cannot be in future affairs. I ask for your personal ideas and beliefs only.
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Old 21st August 2019, 02:12 PM   #417
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Ricardo,


1. Susan Blackmore is clear that she really tried to find paranormal evidence — and could not. In fact, the harder she looked, the more she realized that there was NO EVIDENCE to be found.


2. She is also a very nice person. I had a 30 minute conversation with her last October at a conference.


3. Did you find a Portuguese-language copy of the book I recommended (Dueling Neurosurgeons)?
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Old 21st August 2019, 02:16 PM   #418
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I said that some members of this forum are pseudo-skeptical about the spiritist doctrine! do you know the spiritist doctrine?
I know a little about it, having read a good bit of stuff by Rudolf Steiner among others. I must confess I did not dip too deeply into the well in the past, and not at all recently, because it's all BS.

You accuse others of "pseudo-skepticism" for, essentially, rejecting your unfounded prophecy that someday something will become evident. I suggest that if and when it actually becomes evident, then and only then will it be possible to judge as evidence. Until then there's no "pseudo" in saying that there's nothing to see.
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Last edited by bruto; 21st August 2019 at 02:17 PM. Reason: sloppy typing
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Old 21st August 2019, 02:22 PM   #419
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I have no evidence. Future science will have the evidence of the existence of spirits! 22nd century science will make the discovery of spirits! how 19th century science made the discovery of viruses! and 20th century science visualized by electron microscopy in 1931 viruses! yes most skeptics will believe it, but a minority even in the face of evidence will not believe it, it is this minority that is pseudo-skeptics!

I believe that I know what you are trying to say. That there are people who would not believe, in spite of evidence. Are those the pseudo-skeptics that you are referring to?


Thanks.
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Old 21st August 2019, 02:23 PM   #420
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
Ricardo,


1. Susan Blackmore is clear that she really tried to find paranormal evidence — and could not. In fact, the harder she looked, the more she realized that there was NO EVIDENCE to be found.


2. She is also a very nice person. I had a 30 minute conversation with her last October at a conference.


3. Did you find a Portuguese-language copy of the book I recommended (Dueling Neurosurgeons)?
yes I just haven't read it yet!
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Old 21st August 2019, 02:29 PM   #421
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I said that some members of this forum are pseudo-skeptical about the spiritist doctrine! do you know the spiritist doctrine?
And I said YES. AGAIN.
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Old 21st August 2019, 02:29 PM   #422
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I already said ... Spiritist doctrine is not within the purview of science or scientific method!
This thread is moving too fast to follow well, but I will interject here, since you have noted that English is not your language, the small caution that in English the terms "Spiritism" and "Spiritualism" differ, though the first may well include the second. Spiritism, which is what you are espousing here, is a pretty specific set of ideas, while spiritualism covers a much wider set of beliefs shared by many religions, even those which are otherwise incompatible.
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Old 21st August 2019, 02:29 PM   #423
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
so would I have to be a scientist for you to accept my scientific evidence of the existence of spirits?
No, You'd just have to have evidence.

Real evidence, Not a piece of loose-leaf you drew on with crayon depicting yourself playing checkers with a spirit.
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Old 21st August 2019, 02:36 PM   #424
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
I believe that I know what you are trying to say. That there are people who would not believe, in spite of evidence. Are those the pseudo-skeptics that you are referring to?


Thanks.
yes, pseudo-skeptics don't believe it, even in the face of evidence!
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Old 21st August 2019, 02:44 PM   #425
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
No, You'd just have to have evidence.

Real evidence, Not a piece of loose-leaf you drew on with crayon depicting yourself playing checkers with a spirit.
I have no evidence! But the science of the future will have this evidence! Electrons have always existed, but were not discovered until the late 19th century!
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Old 21st August 2019, 02:55 PM   #426
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om4_bo2MvaQ
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Old 21st August 2019, 03:27 PM   #427
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can this be evidence?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2qhMV1qOCA
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Old 21st August 2019, 04:24 PM   #428
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I have no evidence! But the science of the future will have this evidence! Electrons have always existed, but were not discovered until the late 19th century!
Get back to me when you do. Bye
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Old 21st August 2019, 04:27 PM   #429
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post

Oh yer wow! They actually got a body spirit leaving the body on camera!

I'm convinced but just have one question ...... why is the spirit dressed?
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Old 21st August 2019, 04:54 PM   #430
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Oh yer wow! They actually got a body spirit leaving the body on camera!

I'm convinced but just have one question ...... why is the spirit dressed?
This is due to the spirit body or spirit's perispirit! The copy of clothing is created by the spirit automatically! That's what I read in the books I quoted here!
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Old 21st August 2019, 04:55 PM   #431
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I have no evidence. Future science will have the evidence of the existence of spirits! 22nd century science will make the discovery of spirits! how 19th century science made the discovery of viruses! and 20th century science visualized by electron microscopy in 1931 viruses! yes most skeptics will believe it, but a minority even in the face of evidence will not believe it, it is this minority that is pseudo-skeptics!
How do you know this will occur in the 22nd century, rather than sooner or later?
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Old 21st August 2019, 04:57 PM   #432
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
This thread is moving too fast to follow well, but I will interject here, since you have noted that English is not your language, the small caution that in English the terms "Spiritism" and "Spiritualism" differ, though the first may well include the second. Spiritism, which is what you are espousing here, is a pretty specific set of ideas, while spiritualism covers a much wider set of beliefs shared by many religions, even those which are otherwise incompatible.
yea ! it's about spiritist doctrine or spiritism!
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Old 21st August 2019, 05:01 PM   #433
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
This is due to the spirit body or spirit's perispirit! The copy of clothing is created by the spirit automatically! That's what I read in the books I quoted here!

"Perispirit" that's a new one. Not a pseudo spirit then. So many things seem to be pseudo lately.
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Old 21st August 2019, 05:13 PM   #434
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
"Perispirit" that's a new one. Not a pseudo spirit then. So many things seem to be pseudo lately.
It is the spiritual body of the spirit, the spirit has a spiritual body, which is a copy of the body, in this video you will understand what a spiritual body is! at 53 seconds of the video you will see the spiritual body!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y2wqkD2KVM
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Old 21st August 2019, 05:22 PM   #435
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Here's some more spirits!

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Old 21st August 2019, 05:24 PM   #436
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
How do you know this will occur in the 22nd century, rather than sooner or later?
because the evidence of the existence of spirits will be denied, because it will undermine powerful interests! We cannot forget the politicization of science!
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Old 21st August 2019, 05:28 PM   #437
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
It is the spiritual body of the spirit, the spirit has a spiritual body, which is a copy of the body, in this video you will understand what a spiritual body is! at 53 seconds of the video you will see the spiritual body!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y2wqkD2KVM

Well wow again! A fully dressed spirit emerges from the body here yet again, and although we can see it Patrick Swayze can't. Those nasty demon types don't look too friendly.
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Old 21st August 2019, 05:41 PM   #438
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
yes, pseudo-skeptics don't believe it, even in the face of evidence!
Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I have no evidence! ...
Applying logic to your assertions.

1. pseudo-skeptics are those that ignore evidence
B. you have no evidence
iii. ergo, by definition (point 1) pseudo-skeptics don't exist.
4. QED
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Old 21st August 2019, 05:44 PM   #439
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Do you skeptical consider this evidence?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1OK1ipqLHY
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Old 21st August 2019, 05:52 PM   #440
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
because the evidence of the existence of spirits will be denied, because it will undermine powerful interests! We cannot forget the politicization of science!
The question is: How are you certain of the timing?
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