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Tags Allan Kardec , life after death , spiritism , spiritualism

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Old 11th September 2019, 10:02 AM   #1561
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I had a psychiatrist who would agree with you. Which is why I dispensed with his services.
Because he correctly described the fractious relationship schizophrenics have with logic?

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I applied the same standard of reasoning to working out if I was being tormented telepathically as I did to fixing circuit boards.
No. Differential diagnosis of faulty machinery is not remotely akin to your obvious pseudo-deductive inferences regarding being "tormented telepahtically." In the real world, serious claims of that sort are prima facie evidence of mental illness.

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Believe it or not , I am not wrong.
You are neither logical nor infallible. Because schizophrenics firmly believe there is no possible way they can be wrong, the symptoms progress to paranoia in an effort to explain a dissonant picture of the facts.
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Old 11th September 2019, 10:09 AM   #1562
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Because that's what schizophrenia makes people do, and then cling tenaciously to the notion that it was real. Yes, I believe you believe that's what happened. But if the question is whether it's possible for you to be wrong about it, the answer is very much yes, it is possible for you to be wrong about that. Schizophrenia is exactly people being wrong about things that did or didn't happen.
I have a two page print out about me from the police national computer which I acquired under the data protection act. Therefore I can prove I was investigated by the police.

As for aforementioned incident, I can tell when a policeman shouts twenty feet away from me while I was looking at him. I saw him shout as well as hearing him.
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Old 11th September 2019, 10:12 AM   #1563
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post

No. Differential diagnosis of faulty machinery is not remotely akin to your obvious pseudo-deductive inferences regarding being "tormented telepahtically." In the real world, serious claims of that sort are prima facie evidence of mental illness.
The girl told me four facts I definitely did not know while talking about what I was thinking.

FACTS about the equipment I was working on, not delusions
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Old 11th September 2019, 10:17 AM   #1564
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Therefore I can prove I was investigated by the police.
Yes, that's not in question.

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As for aforementioned incident, I can tell when a policeman shouts twenty feet away from me while I was looking at him. I saw him shout as well as hearing him.
No. As a diagnosed schizophrenic, you cannot assert this belief as incontrovertible evidence that a thing actually happened.
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Old 11th September 2019, 10:18 AM   #1565
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The girl told me four facts I definitely did not know while talking about what I was thinking.

FACTS about the equipment I was working on, not delusions
I addressed this already. You did not respond.
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Old 11th September 2019, 10:37 AM   #1566
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Yes, that's not in question.



No. As a diagnosed schizophrenic, you cannot assert this belief as incontrovertible evidence that a thing actually happened.
Rubbish, I know what I saw and heard, he shouted, and I am not deaf or blind.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 11th September 2019, 10:39 AM   #1567
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Rubbish, I know what I saw and heard, he shouted, and I am not deaf or blind.
But you are schizophrenic.
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Old 11th September 2019, 10:53 AM   #1568
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
But you are schizophrenic.
I tweeted Professor David Canter telling him he is right when he said, "the police are lumping everyone together under the one label of psychopath"

He tweeted me back saying psychopathy is very little understood. I tweeted him back about Schizophrenia, and he said that schizophrenia was even less understood.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:06 AM   #1569
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I tweeted Professor David Canter telling him he is right when he said, "the police are lumping everyone together under the one label of psychopath"

He tweeted me back saying psychopathy is very little understood. I tweeted him back about Schizophrenia, and he said that schizophrenia was even less understood.
That does not mean that we understand nothing about schizophrenia at all.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:06 AM   #1570
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I tweeted Professor David Canter telling him he is right when he said, "the police are lumping everyone together under the one label of psychopath"

He tweeted me back saying psychopathy is very little understood. I tweeted him back about Schizophrenia, and he said that schizophrenia was even less understood.
Irrelevant. You concede you suffer from delusions, which is very well understood to be a common symptom of schizophrenia. In any case, you concede you have delusions. That's the point. If you have delusions, then your recollection is not incontrovertible evidence that the recollected thing happened.

As for Carter, we need not construe his vague, one-sentence dismissal to mean necessarily that schizophrenia does not have widely agreed-upon symptoms.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:07 AM   #1571
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Scorpion, in the many years between your diagnosis and now, many things have been learned about what’s happening when people hear voices. Here’s a new resource that’s just launched, you might find it helpful. https://understandingvoices.com/
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:11 AM   #1572
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
Scorpion, in the many years between your diagnosis and now, many things have been learned about what’s happening when people hear voices. Here’s a new resource that’s just launched, you might find it helpful. https://understandingvoices.com/
Thanks very much
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:14 AM   #1573
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Irrelevant. You concede you suffer from delusions, which is very well understood to be a common symptom of schizophrenia. In any case, you concede you have delusions. That's the point. If you have delusions, then your recollection is not incontrovertible evidence that the recollected thing happened.

As for Carter, we need not construe his vague, one-sentence dismissal to mean necessarily that schizophrenia does not have widely agreed-upon symptoms.
I said I hallucinate, I do not think I am delusional. I believe I correctly interpreted the sum of my experiences, and as I said above I dismiss 96% of my experience as not having sufficient information to form a logical judgement.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:23 AM   #1574
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I said I hallucinate...
How does that result in your recollections being incontrovertible evidence that something occurred?

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I do not think I am delusional.
Claiming that your co-workers were telepathically tormenting you is clearly delusional.

Quote:
I believe I correctly interpreted the sum of my experiences....
As does pretty much every schizophrenic.

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I dismiss 96% of my experience as not having sufficient information to form a logical judgement.
But we're not talking about those. We're talking about the ones in which you insist you can know that you weren't delusional, but the evidence suggests you were. In my experience and understanding, schizophrenia doesn't require every experience to be an hallucination or every interpretation to be a delusion. Telling me that your schizophrenia isn't a factor because it operates only occasionally doesn't clear the bar.

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Old 11th September 2019, 11:35 AM   #1575
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
How does that result in your recollections being incontrovertible evidence that something occurred?

Claiming that your co-workers were telepathically tormenting you is clearly delusional.

But we're not talking about those. We're talking about the ones in which you insist you can know that you weren't delusional, but the evidence suggests you were.
I know I hallucinate because sometimes it became obvious something I thought I heard was not true, so I dismiss anything that does not have enough information to form a sound judgment. Enough of the things I heard were logically sound for me to draw conclusions.

In my universe there is a spirit world and some people can and do receive or transmit telepathically. But you are stuck in your limited world view in which these things cannot exist. Therefore you will always dismiss my reasoning as delusional.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:49 AM   #1576
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I know I hallucinate because sometimes it became obvious something I thought I heard was not true, so I dismiss anything that does not have enough information to form a sound judgment. Enough of the things I heard were logically sound for me to draw conclusions.
But that leaves out situations in which the events, as you perceive them, are able to form a consistent picture, but that the events are simply not fact. You assert you can determine when your perceptions are real or not, but the basis you provide for that is not sufficiently distinguishing. You assert you can determine when your reasoning is sound, but you've provided no basis for that except your fervent protests.

Quote:
In my universe there is a spirit world and some people can and do receive or transmit telepathically.
Invoking your own private universe does not absolve you of a diagnosis of mental illness. If anything, it reinforces it.

Quote:
But you are stuck in your limited world view in which these things cannot exist. Therefore you will always dismiss my reasoning as delusional.
I dismiss your reasoning as delusions because you freely admit is based on beliefs that you hold, for which you deny there can be any evidence, and upon whose premises you have leveled patently absurd accusations.

No one is saying the spirit world cannot exist. We are saying there is no evidentiary reason to believe it exists, and therefore no rational reason to attribute effects to it as a cause. You have gone through some pretty silly gymnastics to make sure skeptics can never hope to test your claims. Blaming them for their attitude after that is pretty self-serving and disingenuous.

Would it be accurate to say you keep coming here, telling your anecdotes to skeptics (instead of to a sympathetic audience) just for the occasional opportunity to call your critics small-minded? You have nothing to offer a skeptical audience, so I maintain that ego-reinforcement, not a search for the truth, is your real purpose here.
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:51 PM   #1577
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Scorpion, my spouse had a psychotic episode a few years back. What you describe as your 'facts' and experiences are shockingly similar to what she reported. It's frightening.

I so want to encourage you to get help, but I fear you are too entrenched in your world.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:56 PM   #1578
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I add my voice to that of The Greater Fool Scorpion.

I had a friend years ago who was diagnosed as schizophrenic and appeared to be chronically afflicted. With medical help he got management of his condition under control and progressed.

I read that a high percentage of sufferers (30 - 50%), refuse to acknowledge they are ill and don't seek treatment - your mindset is not unusual. Mind you it's hard to get a grip on what you really think about it. You acknowledge you have been diagnosed as schizophrenic, but somehow mix this up spiritual involvement. It feels like you are blending the two together as being valid.

Your conviction regarding the veracity of spiritual messages can all be explained by your illness. My friend of years ago, had a variety of convictions about his mental prowess, (moving objects and such by mental force alone), that he had proved to his own satisfaction - not to the satisfaction of myself and others however.
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Old 11th September 2019, 08:49 PM   #1579
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Scorpion, my spouse had a psychotic episode a few years back. What you describe as your 'facts' and experiences are shockingly similar to what she reported. It's frightening.

I so want to encourage you to get help, but I fear you are too entrenched in your world.
Help ! What help? What world are you living in. As I have said many schizophrenics are sleeping on the streets. Many did not survive and many more will not. I am a survivor, I have been surviving since 1969. My belief system works. The occult is real.

I saw psychiatrists for years and all they did was humour me. None of them believed a word I said, just like all of you. In my case notes which I acquired under the data protection act. Every psychiatrist I have ever seen stated I am delusional because of my beliefs in the spirit world. And because I said the police tried to give me a breakdown.

Sorry about your spouse , but just how many know nothing quacks do you think I want to waste my time talking to.?
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Last edited by Scorpion; 11th September 2019 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:06 PM   #1580
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I read that a high percentage of sufferers (30 - 50%), refuse to acknowledge they are ill and don't seek treatment - your mindset is not unusual. Mind you it's hard to get a grip on what you really think about it. You acknowledge you have been diagnosed as schizophrenic, but somehow mix this up spiritual involvement. It feels like you are blending the two together as being valid.
.
Schizophrenia causes damage to the etheric body, due to the mental stress. This leads to all kinds of strange feelings. I felt fire flowing through me in the same places as the chakras. I felt like there were electric cobwebs floating over my skin. Eventually a medium told me my etheric body was loose, and the chakras miss aligned.
After a couple of years of having spiritual healing in a spiritualist church. (Healing which I could often feel as heat). I discovered I could channel healing energy through my own chakras. This eventually led me to be able to stop all medication, and study to become an electronics repair man.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

I am telling you, the occult is real, and there is a spirit world.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:28 PM   #1581
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Schizophrenia causes damage to the etheric body, due to the mental stress.
Etheric body
The etheric body, ether-body, æther body, a name given by neo-Theosophy to a vital body or subtle body propounded in esoteric philosophies as the first or lowest layer in the "human energy field" or aura.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etheric_body

How on earth does schizophrenia affect a magical religious belief in chakras that have no physical manifestation? Your BS fantasy story is contradicting itself again.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
You mean you are a religious person who has belief in magic and suffers schizophrenic delusions.....we already knew that.....you told us.
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:41 PM   #1582
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
What is not clear about what I said ? The police officer shouted while I was looking at him. He said I was a psychopath. How can you suppose I imagined that?
That's easy. Under sec 135 of the UK Mental Health act, the police, if they thought you were a psychopath and a danger to yourself, would have had a court psychiatrist interview you and then a judge make a direction as to what happens next.

Secondly, the police report you claim you have would detail who at the office applied to a criminal court to obtain a restraining order against you for harassment. You don't seem to know that.

(My father was a psychiatrist, and former commissioner of Corrective Services in NSW.)
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:51 PM   #1583
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
That reminds me, I find it interesting that both Michel H and Scorpion seem to be unable to comprehend sarcasm.
That's because they are applying their pre-existing concepts to the events and conversations around them and not trying to determine what is actually being said.

Michel H said he could make all dogs behave in a particular way. When I suggested he go to the local Belgium greyhound racing track at the start of each race and test his claim, he stopped posting because he had a pre-existing delusion and wasn't going to let facts wreck his delusions. That's why talk therapy for schizophrenics takes a while because schizophrenics don't wan't to know they are deluded.

Entertainingly, Michel H and Scorpion can haven't had their bank accounts cleared every week despite other "telepathic" people discovering their PIN numbers every time they use an ATM. That's more evidence their delusions don't even make sense.
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Old 11th September 2019, 09:54 PM   #1584
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I tweeted Professor David Canter telling him he is right when he said, "the police are lumping everyone together under the one label of psychopath".
The police don't make that diagnosis at all. What does your bogus "police report" say the UK Act was, they were arresting you under?
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Old 11th September 2019, 10:53 PM   #1585
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Again I completely understand why the police would be concerned about an untreated schizophrenic walking their streets, and would start a file on him, just as I understand why his managers and colleagues reacted to him as they did. I can also understand why a policeman with little knowledge of mental illness would mistakenly use the word psychopath when he actually meant schizophrenic. And I completely understand why a schizophrenic would interpret all this the way Scorpion did.

The fact remains that belief that spirits gave him lottery numbers, that his colleagues tortured him telepathically and that the police tried to give him a breakdown are all delusions. But I can also understand why he angrily rejected that information when psychiatrists gently tried to explain it.
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Old 12th September 2019, 03:26 AM   #1586
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The fact remains that belief that spirits gave him lottery numbers, that his colleagues tortured him telepathically and that the police tried to give him a breakdown are all delusions.
The word 'Fact' is inappropriate. Its your opinion not a fact.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 12th September 2019, 03:32 AM   #1587
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
The police don't make that diagnosis at all. What does your bogus "police report" say the UK Act was, they were arresting you under?
OH yea ! why don't you tweet Professor David Canter on twitter and ask him what he said about the police on a TV interview.

I was cautioned for the following.

Using the public telecom system to send false phone messages to cause annoyance/inconvenience/needles anxiety.

I pleaded guilty to this, but it almost choked me. But it was the only way I could get off with a caution.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:12 AM   #1588
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
OH yea ! why don't you tweet Professor David Canter on twitter and ask him what he said about the police on a TV interview.



I was cautioned for the following.



Using the public telecom system to send false phone messages to cause annoyance/inconvenience/needles anxiety.



I pleaded guilty to this, but it almost choked me. But it was the only way I could get off with a caution.
You have already describe behaviour that I think any of us would consider harassment, sounds like you were let off lightly, probably because they knew you were unwell.
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:22 AM   #1589
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The word 'Fact' is inappropriate.
The word fact is entirely appropriate. Anyone appraised of the full details of your experiences and circumstances, including those predisposed to believe in the supernatural, would agree it is a fact (except, possibly, another schizophrenic). The psychiatrists who tried to help you know it is a fact. Your inability to accept that is a symptom of your illness.
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:53 AM   #1590
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Help ! What help? What world are you living in. As I have said many schizophrenics are sleeping on the streets. Many did not survive and many more will not. I am a survivor, I have been surviving since 1969. My belief system works. The occult is real.

I saw psychiatrists for years and all they did was humour me. None of them believed a word I said, just like all of you. In my case notes which I acquired under the data protection act. Every psychiatrist I have ever seen stated I am delusional because of my beliefs in the spirit world. And because I said the police tried to give me a breakdown.

Sorry about your spouse , but just how many know nothing quacks do you think I want to waste my time talking to.?
I didn't expect my words to make a difference, as they didn't with my spouse.

Good luck.
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Old 12th September 2019, 06:46 AM   #1591
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I am telling you, the occult is real, and there is a spirit world.
The defiant ipse dixit of an untreated schizophrenic was all the evidence I ever needed. Hallelujah, I'm converted.
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:09 AM   #1592
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I have just been reading through my notes and one thing that happened which is quite clear is that while I was working in the factory I put my overtime form in my desk draw.
It was on top of the pile, and when I went to get it to hand it in it was not there.

I then heard the psychic girl in the office say, " I knew he was worried about it so I took it" implying she knew what I was thinking.

I then searched through every scrap of paper in the drawer three times, and the overtime form was definitely missing. I quickly filled out another form and handed it in.
But the point is the girl said she took it and it was not there. This is a fact. I know it was in the drawer before and there is no doubt about it. The girl said she took it, and that's the only explanation that makes sense.
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:18 AM   #1593
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Using the public telecom system to send false phone messages to cause annoyance/inconvenience/needles anxiety.

I pleaded guilty to this, but it almost choked me. But it was the only way I could get off with a caution.
If I recall this correctly, you said you were contacting your former co-workers to get evidence of the crimes you allege they committed against you -- the telepathic torment. You told us that it is a defense against a charge of harassment if the behavior was an attempt to collect evidence of a crime. If that was a possible defense, and you had evidence of the crime -- as you say here you do -- then why didn't you pursue it?

Here in this forum you boldly declare your belief, insist that it is fact, and call your critics small-minded for not accepting that. Why was there no such boldness in court? Was it perhaps that there you knew you'd have to produce legally cognizable evidence, on demand, that torment by telepathy was possible? Was it because calling the crown prosecutor or the magistrate judge a small-minded killjoy was probably not a wise way to win them over to your view of the facts in the case? When you started making those calls to your co-workers, what was your long-term strategy?

In the larger sense, do you realize the importance that having actual evidence plays in society? You live among people who have different experiences, different challenges, and different strengths. This leads them to having different expectations of those around them. But we agree that whatever common code of behavior we adopt must be based on evidence that is objectively discoverable and ordinarily testable. No part of an orderly society allows you to live in your own universe, where there are spirits and telepathy and any number of supernatural causes you say can never be proven to exist, and impose the elements of that private world on others as a justification for your injury to them. You've been shown how you don't get to do that in the real world. I don't see by what stretch of morals you think you can do that here. I'd better not hear you make more accusations that your critics here are small-minded for rightly disbelieving your claims without proof.
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:22 AM   #1594
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
This is a fact. I know it was in the drawer before and there is no doubt about it. The girl said she took it, and that's the only explanation that makes sense.
All these anecdotes and recollections come through the fog of untreated schizophrenia. They are not facts. They are not incontestable. Mind-reading doesn't suddenly leap into the realm of possibility simply because you need it to in order to make sense of disordered thinking.
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:28 AM   #1595
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
If I recall this correctly, you said you were contacting your former co-workers to get evidence of the crimes you allege they committed against you -- the telepathic torment. You told us that it is a defense against a charge of harassment if the behavior was an attempt to collect evidence of a crime. If that was a possible defense, and you had evidence of the crime -- as you say here you do -- then why didn't you pursue it?

Here in this forum you boldly declare your belief, insist that it is fact, and call your critics small-minded for not accepting that. Why was there no such boldness in court? Was it perhaps that there you knew you'd have to produce legally cognizable evidence, on demand, that torment by telepathy was possible? Was it because calling the crown prosecutor or the magistrate judge a small-minded killjoy was probably not a wise way to win them over to your view of the facts in the case? When you started making those calls to your co-workers, what was your long-term strategy?
The whole point of besieging my ex employers was to get them to give me evidence. I said to them, and to their high priced lawyers (Dibb Lupton Alsop)
Over and over again. If you tell me the name of the psychologist or psychiatrist who was behind what you did to me I will sign a waver stating I will not seek damages from the company. Instead I will seek damages from the psychologist, and from the police.

That was my strategy and I have never made a formal complaint to anyone precisely because I have no evidence, and nobody who does not know the truth will believe me. Just like all of you they will assume its just paranoia.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:33 AM   #1596
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
I'd better not hear you make more accusations that your critics here are small-minded for rightly disbelieving your claims without proof.
Oh! you don't like being insulted. But every one of you is calling me totally insane and delusional in almost every post.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:42 AM   #1597
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Oh! you don't like being insulted. But every one of you is calling me totally insane and delusional in almost every post.
YOU told us you are Schizophrenic.
YOU told us you still experience audio and visual hallucinations.
We believe you 100%.

Thus, we don't believe when you claim mind-reading and spirits are the source of your delusions.

You need to find someone you trust completely to help you know reality from delusion. By your own statements, this is not something possible for you to do solo.
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:47 AM   #1598
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
YOU told us you are Schizophrenic.
YOU told us you still experience audio and visual hallucinations.
We believe you 100%.

Thus, we don't believe when you claim mind-reading and spirits are the source of your delusions.

You need to find someone you trust completely to help you know reality from delusion. By your own statements, this is not something possible for you to do solo.
Yea! I am going to turn myself in at the nearest mental hospital just because all of you think I am insane. Actually that would be difficult because there are no beds for non violent patients.

In any case if you recall I rejected the psychiatric view of the world in 1971 after they gave me a poor prognosis of recovery, and I turned to spiritualism instead. There I found real answers, and practical occult techniques to cleanse my aura and channel healing through my chakras.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:08 AM   #1599
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Scorpion,

Leaving aside the questions of schizophrenia, hallucinations, delusions, law and police and solicitors, may I ask this:

Didn't you say you're not living on the streets, and that at age 70, you have a government-sponsored pension?

As someone who doesn't live in the UK, I don't know how this happens. Did you work subsequent to the events you've been describing, and that qualified you for a pension, or is there another explanation?

Furthermore, are you in a safe place (both physically and societally)?
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:13 AM   #1600
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
Scorpion,

Leaving aside the questions of schizophrenia, hallucinations, delusions, law and police and solicitors, may I ask this:

Didn't you say you're not living on the streets, and that at age 70, you have a government-sponsored pension?

As someone who doesn't live in the UK, I don't know how this happens. Did you work subsequent to the events you've been describing, and that qualified you for a pension, or is there another explanation?

Furthermore, are you in a safe place (both physically and societally)?
Hi ! Yes I qualified for a state pension, and I have a nice rental flat paid for by the council. I worked most of my adult life, and when I went sick the government paid into my pension for me, so I am quite comfortable.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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