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Tags Allan Kardec , life after death , spiritism , spiritualism

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Old 17th August 2019, 12:35 AM   #161
abaddon
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
read these books then come back ok!
http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/ here you will understand ... that the spiritist doctrine .. is not within the purview of science or scientific method ... ignoring these books is an attitude of pseudo-skeptics ... will you read or not?
http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/
Read them. They are BS. Why are you running away from that?
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Old 17th August 2019, 02:18 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
True skeptics or open-minded skeptics. They ask questions and research and study to try to understand new things and are open to learning about them. http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/
So present the evidence for the "new thing".
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Old 17th August 2019, 03:33 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Most of my threads end up with people wanting me to excuse Hitler, or the killing of children.
You have a religious belief that all death and suffering is ultimately good because it allows for spiritual evolution or somesuch nonsense.

"All death and suffering is ultimately good for us" is an easy position to defend in the abstract. It's not so easy to defend when given specific examples of the worst kind of suffering that your religion states are ultimately good things.

That's when you're not so willing to put your money where your mouth is and defend the logical implications of what you're trying to sell. It's no-one else's fault that according to your religion, the Holocaust was part of some greater good scheme to further the evolution of people's souls.
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Old 17th August 2019, 04:26 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Doctrine is not evidence of anything. It isn’t relevant to the question of whether spirits exist.
The ordinary sciences rest on the properties of matter which one can experiment and manipulate at will; Spiritist phenomena rest on the action of intelligences that have their own will and prove to us at any moment that they are not available to our whims. Observations, therefore, cannot be made in the same way; they require special conditions and another starting point; To want to subject them to our ordinary investigative processes is to establish analogies that do not exist. Science itself, as a science, therefore, is incompetent to pronounce on the question of Spiritism: it does not have to concern itself with it, and its judgment, whatever it may be, whether favorable or not, could not have any importance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoskepticism
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Old 17th August 2019, 04:31 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
So present the evidence for the "new thing".
the evidence ... is not found in science ... because the spiritist doctrine is not within the purview of science ... the evidence you want is in the spiritist literature ... in the books I recommended ... this evidence already exists since the 19th century ... I close the debate!
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Old 17th August 2019, 04:33 AM   #166
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the evidence ... is not found in science ... because the spiritist doctrine is not within the purview of science ... the evidence you want is in the spiritist literature ... in the books I recommended ... this evidence already exists since the 19th century ... I close the debate!

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Old 17th August 2019, 04:38 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Read them. They are BS. Why are you running away from that?
the evidence ... is not found in science ... because the spiritist doctrine is not within the purview of science ... the evidence you want is in the spiritist literature ... in the books I recommended ... this evidence already exists since the 19th century ... I close the debate!
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Old 17th August 2019, 04:49 AM   #168
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Parroting Kardec is hardly compelling evidence of anything except Kardec’s belief. Rather convenient of somebody to embed within their belief system a “get out of jail free” card in the form of a rather transparent case of special pleading.

So again, why the urge to debate this? According to everything you’ve stated, there can be no debate.
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Old 17th August 2019, 05:09 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Parroting Kardec is hardly compelling evidence of anything except Kardec’s belief. Rather convenient of somebody to embed within their belief system a “get out of jail free” card in the form of a rather transparent case of special pleading.

So again, why the urge to debate this? According to everything you’ve stated, there can be no debate.
the evidence ... is not found in science ... because the spiritist doctrine is not within the purview of science ... the evidence you want is in the spiritist literature ... in the books I recommended ... this evidence already exists since the 19th century ... I close the debate!
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Old 17th August 2019, 05:17 AM   #170
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Started reading the fist published book. The first thing that has struck me is that Kardec is quite emphatic that you shouldn't use the word "spiritualism", but instead "spiritism". I'm not sure Ricardo is as devout a follower as he would have us believe.

Just skimming through, there's some interesting stuff in the books. He doesn't mention them by name, but he's uncritically accepting of the veracity of the Fox sisters. The book in question was published a decade after the Fox sisters started, and two decades before they admitted they had been perpetrating a fraud the entire time.

He does address the issue of fakers by first saying that an observer can't really tell if something is being faked or if there are just facts they're unaware of, then he admits that there are fakers but that that doesn't mean that everybody is faking, and then he says that everybody faking it is a less credible explanation than it being a real phenomenon.

This is the full passage that the quote Ricardo keeps spamming is from:

Quote:
Many persons regard the opposition of the learned world as constituting, if not a proof, at least a very strong presumption of the falsity of Spiritism. We are not of those who affect indifference in regard to the judgment of scientific men; on the contrary, we hold them in
great esteem, and should think it an honour to be of their number, but we cannot consider their opinion as l)eing, under all circumstances, necessarily and absolutely conclusive.

When the votaries of science go beyond the bare observation of facts, when they attempt to appraise and to explain those facts, they enter tipon the field of conjecture; each advances a system of his own, which he does his utmost to bring into favour, and defends with might and
main. Do we not see every day the most divergent systems brought forward and rejected. one after the other; now cried down as absurd errors, and now cried up as incontestable truths? Facts are the sole criterion of reality, the sole argument that admits of no reply: in the absence of facts. the wise man suspends his judgment.

In regard to all matters that have already been fully examined, the verdict of the learned is justly held to be authoritative, because their knowledge of them is fuller and more enlightened than that of ordinary men; but in regard to new facts or principles, to matters imperfectly known, their opinion can only be hypothetic, because they are no more exempt from prejudice than other people It may even be said that scientific men are more apt to be prejudiced than the rest of the world, because each of them is naturally inclined to look at everything from the special point of view that has been adopted by him; the mathematiciau admitting no other order of proof than that of an algebraic demonstration, the chemist referring everything to the action of the elements, etc. When a man has made for himself a specialty, he usually devotes his whole mind to it; beyond the scope of this specialty he often reasons falsely, because, owing to the weakness of human reason, he insists on treating every subject in the same way; and therefore, while we should willingly and confidemly consult a chemist in regard to a question of analysis, a physicist in regard to electricity, a mechanician in regard to a motive power, we must be allowed, without in any way derogating from the respect due to their special knowledge, to attach no more weight to their unfavourable opinion of Spiritism than we should do to the judgment of an architect on a question relating to the theory of music.

The positive sciences are based on the properties of matter, which may be experimented upon and manipulated at pleasure; but spiritist phenomena are an effect of the action of intelligences who have wills of their own, and who constantly show us that they are not subjected to ours. The observation of facts, therefore, cannot be carried on in the latter case in the same way as in the former one, for they proceed from another source, and require special conditions; and, consequently, to insist upon submitting them to the same methods of investigation is to insist on assuming the existence of analogies that do not exist. Science, properly so called, is therefore incompetent, as such, to decide the question of the truth of Spiritism; it has nothing to do with it; and its verdict in regard to it, whether favourable or otherwise, is of no weight. Spiritist belief is the result of a personal conviction that scientific men may hold as individuals, and independent of their quality as scientists; but to submit the question to the decision of physical science would be much the same thing as to set a company of physicists and astronomers to decide the question of immortality. Spiritism deals exclusively with the existence of the soul, and its state after death; and it is stipremely un-reasonable to assume that a man must be a great psychologist simply because he is a great mathematician or a great anatomist. The anatomist, when dissecting a human body, looks for the soul, and, as he does not find it under his scalpel as lie finds a nerve or see it evaporate as does a gas, he concludes that it does not exist, because he reasons from an exclusively material point of view; but it by
no means follows that he is right, and that the opinion of the rest of the world is wrong. We see, therefore, that the task of deciding as to the truth or falsity of Spiritism does not fall within the scope of physical science. When spiritist beliefs shall have become generalised, when they shall have been accepted by the masses (and, if we may judge by the rapidity with which they are being propagated, that time can hardly be very distant), it will be with those beliefs as with all new ideas that have encountered opposition; and scientific men will end by yielding to the force of evidence. They will be brought, individually, by the force of things, to admit ideas that they now reject; and, until then, it would be premature to turn them from their special studies in order to occupy them with a matter which is foreign alike to their habits of thought and to their spheres of investigation. Mean-while, those who, without a careful preparatory study of the matter, pronounce a negative verdict in regard to it, and throw ridicule upon all who are not of their way of thinking, forget that such has been done in regard to nearly all the great discoveries that honour the human race. They risk seeing their names added to the list of illustrious proscribers of new ideas, and classed with those of the members of the learned assembly which, in 1752, received Franklin's paper on lightning-rods with peals of laughter, and voted it to be unworthy of mention among the communications addressed to it; or with that other one which caused France to miss the advantage of taking the lead in the application of steam to shipping. by declaring Fulton's plans to be impracticable: and yet these subjects lay within their competence. If those two assemblies, which numbered the most eminent scientists of the world among their members, had only contempt and sarcasm for ideas which they did not understand, but which were destined to revolutionise, a few years later, science, industry, and daily life. how can we hope that a question foreign to their labours shouk! meet with any greater degree of favour at their hands?
I've got to go out now, but I may continue reading a bit more when I get back. If nothing else, it's a fascinating insight into times past. I can certainly imagine, being written 9 years after the Fox sisters first started their shows, how it could all seem new and exciting and like they were just really starting to figure out how the universe was working, especially given how science was progressing at around that time. I mean, there's some really erroneous stuff about what electricity can do in the book, but if you bear in mind that Benjamin Franklin and the kite was only 100 years before the book was published, the battery was only invented 50 years prior, and electrical induction only 30 years,* you can imagine how exciting a time it could have been and how the less rigorous or informed thinkers might come to think they were discovering something fundamental to the universe, equal to Franklin, Volta, and Faraday.

Fascinating in its own way.

*And electromagnetism was only 5 years away.
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Old 17th August 2019, 05:47 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
The ordinary sciences rest on the properties of matter which one can experiment and manipulate at will;
Translation: Science works.

Quote:
Spiritist phenomena rest on the action of intelligences that have their own will and prove to us at any moment that they are not available to our whims.
Translation: Woo doesn't work.

Quote:
Observations, therefore, cannot be made in the same way; they require special conditions and another starting point... <snip>
Translation: Here's some excuses for why the woo doesn't work.

Yawn. Head it all before for every type of woo going. Nothing new here.
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Old 17th August 2019, 06:33 AM   #172
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Been reading some more.

He addresses the issue of the answers spirits give to questions by saying that the issue is that the answers are so advanced compared to our knowledge that they merely appear to be nonsensical to us, in the same way that someone who knows nothing about science may be confused by the answer to a question a scientist gives.

Which is kind of ironic, given what he seems to believe about how science works.

He addresses the fact that different spirits give different answers to the same question by saying that it'd be the same if you asked different people the same question, and besides the answers aren't actually different you just need years of study in order to correctly interpret them.
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Old 17th August 2019, 06:35 AM   #173
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I've got to pause there, again, but I can say that I'm 50 pages in and there has yet been little that I could say is actually addressing what spirits are, or which is presenting evidence for spirits (instead preferring to just say that the evidence exists and you have to be narrow-minded not to accept it at face value, as well as the aforementioned "critical thinking is the wrong tool for which to assess such beliefs"), or which is setting out any actual doctrine.

Then again, I am only skimming. Perhaps Ricardo can point me towards some specific pages?
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Old 17th August 2019, 06:39 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
the evidence ... is not found in science ... because the spiritist doctrine is not within the purview of science ... the evidence you want is in the spiritist literature ... in the books I recommended ... this evidence already exists since the 19th century ... I close the debate!


If the evidence exists, present it.
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Old 17th August 2019, 06:40 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Is there anything more desperate than this thought of utter destruction? Holy affections, intelligence, progress, laboriously acquired knowledge, everything will be annihilated, everything will be lost!
Not so. Anything we do that is worthwhile in this world benefits and informs others. My parent, grandparent and great aunts and uncles are all gone, but their wisdom and example have been passed on to me and others in their family and social group.

In turn I will try to do good and pass on what is best in me although I fear it will be a poorer legacy than I was left.
Quote:
What is the need of the effort to become better, the repression to contain your passions, to be tired to adorn your Spirit, if you must not recollect it? no fruit, above all, with the thought that tomorrow maybe this will do us no good?
Why should we only care about things that do us good?

What about things that do others good?
Quote:
If so, man's luck would be a hundred times worse than that of the animal, because the animal lives entirely in the present, in the satisfaction of its material appetites, without aspiration for the future. A secret intuition says this is not possible.
I have plenty of aspiration and hope for the future.

I won't be there, but I can still help shape it for others.

I have had my time and hopefully for a decade or too longer, but after that, it is the time for others.

This would only be dismal if I was focussed only on myself.
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Old 17th August 2019, 06:41 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
this kind of question
There was no question in that post. Are you sure you're ok?

Quote:
... proves that you ... do not know the Spiritist Doctrine
What a strange response to my request.

If you have no evidence to present, even in principle, then you cannot possibly hope to convince anyone of your beliefs and you're wasting everyone's time, including your own.
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Old 17th August 2019, 06:42 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Pseudo-skeptics have a bias towards certain kinds of subjects, which they consider so absurd that they would not even "waste their time" reading about it!
THAT post, however, contained a question. Why can't you answer it? What are you afraid of?

Can spirits affect the real world or not? Can they move objects or speak to you or affect your actions? Yes or no?
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Old 17th August 2019, 06:43 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I've got to pause there, again, but I can say that I'm 50 pages in and there has yet been little that I could say is actually addressing what spirits are, or which is presenting evidence for spirits (instead preferring to just say that the evidence exists and you have to be narrow-minded not to accept it at face value, as well as the aforementioned "critical thinking is the wrong tool for which to assess such beliefs"), or which is setting out any actual doctrine.

Then again, I am only skimming. Perhaps Ricardo can point me towards some specific pages?
Yea ! I am skimming through the book of spirits myself. So far I have found it compatible with the teachings I received in the spiritualist association during the 1970's For example it says people do not reincarnate as animals, and each incarnation is progressive.
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Old 17th August 2019, 06:46 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
reading the books ... will answer your questions ... especially the book of mediums by Allan Kardec! in 3 days you can read ..474 pages reading the books ... ..after you read your Objection it will be well founded!
Nope. They are comedy gold, sure. One only needs read them to discover that.
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Old 17th August 2019, 06:47 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
the evidence ... is not found in science ... because the spiritist doctrine is not within the purview of science ... the evidence you want is in the spiritist literature ... in the books I recommended ... this evidence already exists since the 19th century ... I close the debate!
And once again I HAVE read them and they remain wallowing in their own crapulence. They are evidence of bugger all.

ETA: It turns out that you have indeed proven me wrong. When I read them I concluded that nobody could believe this crap. Turns out that some people are really that gullible. Who would have thought that it turns out that people exist who really are that dumb?
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Old 17th August 2019, 06:58 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Yea ! I am skimming through the book of spirits myself. So far I have found it compatible with the teachings I received in the spiritualist association during the 1970's For example it says people do not reincarnate as animals, and each incarnation is progressive.
Of course you did. You had already decided that spiritualism was/is true. Any random crap that wanders up will simply seem to be reinforcement of things you already held to be true regardless of their truth value. And regardless of how those may disagree with your particular belief. You will simply paper over those cracks and pretend they are not there. Not in a pursuit of actual truth, but in pursuit of validation.
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Old 17th August 2019, 07:23 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Of course you did. You had already decided that spiritualism was/is true. Any random crap that wanders up will simply seem to be reinforcement of things you already held to be true regardless of their truth value. And regardless of how those may disagree with your particular belief. You will simply paper over those cracks and pretend they are not there. Not in a pursuit of actual truth, but in pursuit of validation.
On the contrary, I seek the truth at any price. I sold all my white eagle books after finding a passage which said there are people on Mars and Venus.
This was written in the time before NASA space probes had landed on those planets. I got rid of all the books because I could not accept anything in them after reading that. I would do the same with any book that is obviously wrong.

For example I rejected Blavatsky's ' secret doctrine' when I read it says there was an Atlantis in the Atlantic. Because I know we have maps of the sea bed, and because the Atlantic was caused by the mid Atlantic ridge which is a fault line between America and Europe and has gradually forced the continents apart. There is no room in the Atlantic for any other land mass.
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Old 17th August 2019, 07:37 AM   #183
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Getting stuck in 1850's spiritualism is pretty amazing. It hadn't even reached its highest point on pop culture until the 1920's.
Can I guess that never hearing "spiritist" before this meant that this guy was a base for many but his purist ideas didn't catch on?

Wait until Ricardo finds any info on that evil Eric Weiss. What he tried to do to spiritualism was important but didn't have impact enough. No curb appeal in reality.
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Old 17th August 2019, 07:50 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I got rid of all the books because I could not accept anything in them after reading that.
Wouldn't it be fair to say that you still accept the majority of what is in them? Just as you accept Kardec's book despite his assertion that electricity is a fluid? And that it's a "modification" of "the universal fluid", which itself is the bridge between matter and spirit?

Or do you believe that to be true?

Oh, and he also claims that there are people living on Mars. And Jupiter. And Venus. And Saturn. In fact "all the globes that revolve in space" are inhabited, according to this book.
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Old 17th August 2019, 08:18 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have written a great deal about Muhammad and the Quran, the summary of which is he was a liar not a prophet.

One reason I knew this from my first reading of the Quran is the horrible verses about hellfire and the torture of unbelievers for all eternity.
I had been quite sure that hellfire does not exist for a long time before reading the Quran. It is obvious that Muhammad stole the idea of scaring people with hell from the bible, which is also largely bunk. The spirit world teaches there is no hellfire, and no Satan, and there will be no judgement day.

The Quran also says the sun has an orbit, and it Is certain it means the sun orbits the earth. Imams lie and say it means the sun orbits the galaxy, but there is a hadith that explains what Muhammad thought about the sun, and it is clear from this hadith he thought it orbits the earth.

There are also clear falsehoods in the Quran that have been stolen from other sources. Such as the story of Jesus bringing a clay bird to life when he was a boy. This story appears twice in the Quran, but its source is a known book of fables called 'the infancy gospels'. Muhammad stole this story even though it is not from the bible but a book of myths.
So based on two types of falsehoods in Mohammad's message you can determine that he is a liar. 1. Your own knowledge of spirit world contradicts with his description 2. The errors in his message regarding cosmology etc.

So in your claim let's say you don't claim any error regarding cosmology etc.
You differentiated yourself in that regard.
How do you prove that your version of "spirit world" is not a lie ? Just because I can't catch you lying about something else I should accept your word on this ?

Last edited by winter salt; 17th August 2019 at 08:22 AM.
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Old 17th August 2019, 08:31 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by winter salt View Post
How do you prove that your version of "spirit world" is not a lie ? Just because I can't catch you lying about something else I should accept your word on this ?
I cannot prove anything to anyone else. I don't expect anyone to take my word for anything.
My beliefs are in part because I used to feel what I believe was psychic energy. I could feel atmosphere in old churches. I was in a bible class when I was 16 and they started talking about people going to hell. I got up and walked out because I felt in my heart God would not do that to anyone, and if he did I wanted nothing to do with him.
As I walked away from the meeting I felt a great sense of upliftment that I had done the right thing.

Much of my beliefs are due to these kind of feelings, and the view that I have been guided by the spirit world. My nervous system has felt like a psychic barometer of truth, in which I can feel what is right and what is wrong.
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Old 17th August 2019, 08:37 AM   #187
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As a fun exercise, given the time the book was written and after noticing the word being used, I've done a search for the term "savage" to see what the spirits had to say about them.

Well, it turns out that "savages" are spirits in their infancy compared to the civilised man.

I'll just quote this one in its entirety:

Quote:
273. Might a man belonging to a civilised race be reincarnated, as an expiation, in a savage race?

"Yes; but that would depend on the kind of expiation he bad incurred. A master who had been cruel to his slaves might become a slave in his turn, and undergo the torments he had inflicted on others. He who has wielded authority may, in a new existence, be obliged to obey those who formerly bent to his will. Such an existence may be imposed upon him as an expiation if he have abused his power. But a good spirit may also choose an influential existence among the people of some lower race, in order to hasten their advancement; in that case, such a reincarnation is a mission."
I want to note the use of the term "lower race" and what that implies. But mostly I want to note that a question about "savages" elicits an answer about "slaves". I think that what's implicit in that mindset is quite clear, and it's worth noting that slavery was only officially declared illegal in 1833, less than 30 years before this book was published. The colonial mindset and the "white man's burden" were still part and parcel of everyday thinking.

There are also a couple of points where "savage" is equated to "cannibal" and to "cruel".

Apparently "savages" do have a moral sense, but it's latent. And they act on instinct, rather than truly utilising free will - and when they do use free will it's to satisfy their own desires.

In this post I've been restricting myself to either things said by a spirit, or said to a spirit that was not corrected. Why I've chosen this particular subject to look at is hopefully to demonstrate that these questions and answers are as much of a product of their time as the misapprehensions of electricity. It doesn't read like an advanced and enlightened being giving knowledge and wisdom, it reads like a couple of people from that era being unable to think beyond the culture in which they exist.

I would hope this would be enough to give anybody tempted to take this seriously pause for thought.
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Old 17th August 2019, 08:39 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I could feel atmosphere in old churches.

Yes, they’re often a bit draughty.
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Old 17th August 2019, 08:40 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Wouldn't it be fair to say that you still accept the majority of what is in them? Just as you accept Kardec's book despite his assertion that electricity is a fluid? And that it's a "modification" of "the universal fluid", which itself is the bridge between matter and spirit?

Or do you believe that to be true?

Oh, and he also claims that there are people living on Mars. And Jupiter. And Venus. And Saturn. In fact "all the globes that revolve in space" are inhabited, according to this book.
I must admit I cannot shake my convictions about much of what I have heard In trance lectures.

I don't know what Kardec meant by electricity being a fluid.

I did not see any of the names of the planets in his book.
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Old 17th August 2019, 08:42 AM   #190
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Again I go back to my "We're standing in a room with no chair in it, yet for some reason still looking for a chair" metaphor.

"Well you see there's an invisible, undetectable chair in the room that I have magical mental powers to detect and you don't" isn't enough to even make the question "Is there a chair in the room?" a valid one to ask, much less evidence for the actual existence of the chair.
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Old 17th August 2019, 08:44 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Yes, they’re often a bit draughty.
I used to work in London and the atmosphere of the streets was unpleasant to my nerves. But if I went and sat in an old church during my lunchbreaks, I felt uplifted and strengthened.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 17th August 2019, 08:44 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I used to work in London and the atmosphere of the streets was unpleasant to my nerves. But if I went and sat in an old church during my lunchbreaks, I felt uplifted and strengthened.
And this is evidence of what exactly?
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Old 17th August 2019, 08:44 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
As a fun exercise, given the time the book was written and after noticing the word being used, I've done a search for the term "savage" to see what the spirits had to say about them.

Well, it turns out that "savages" are spirits in their infancy compared to the civilised man.

I'll just quote this one in its entirety:



I want to note the use of the term "lower race" and what that implies. But mostly I want to note that a question about "savages" elicits an answer about "slaves". I think that what's implicit in that mindset is quite clear, and it's worth noting that slavery was only officially declared illegal in 1833, less than 30 years before this book was published. The colonial mindset and the "white man's burden" were still part and parcel of everyday thinking.

There are also a couple of points where "savage" is equated to "cannibal" and to "cruel".

Apparently "savages" do have a moral sense, but it's latent. And they act on instinct, rather than truly utilising free will - and when they do use free will it's to satisfy their own desires.

In this post I've been restricting myself to either things said by a spirit, or said to a spirit that was not corrected. Why I've chosen this particular subject to look at is hopefully to demonstrate that these questions and answers are as much of a product of their time as the misapprehensions of electricity. It doesn't read like an advanced and enlightened being giving knowledge and wisdom, it reads like a couple of people from that era being unable to think beyond the culture in which they exist.

I would hope this would be enough to give anybody tempted to take this seriously pause for thought.
Right so apart from being wrong about inhabitants of other planets, electricity, biology of humans he was spot on.....
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Old 17th August 2019, 08:51 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I don't know what Kardec meant by electricity being a fluid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_...of_electricity

Quote:
I did not see any of the names of the planets in his book.
And therefore they're not there?
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Old 17th August 2019, 08:54 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And this is evidence of what exactly?
Churches are no longer busy, vibrant relevant places?
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Old 17th August 2019, 09:00 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And this is evidence of what exactly?
It is not evidence to anyone else, but to me it was part of a developing awareness of psychic energy. The streets of London are filled with unpleasant psychic vibrations, because of all the things that happened there, like the war, and the constant striving for materialism.

But in old churches the walls have been filled with positive psychic energy from the prayers of centuries.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 17th August 2019, 09:02 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It is not evidence to anyone else, but to me it was part of a developing awareness of psychic energy. The streets of London are filled with unpleasant psychic vibrations, because of all the things that happened there, like the war, and the constant striving for materialism.

But in old churches the walls have been filled with positive psychic energy from the prayers of centuries.
"Not evidence to anyone else" isn't a thing.

You aren't psychic. Psychics don't exist.
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Old 17th August 2019, 09:06 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post

Psychics don't exist.
Well I think you are wrong, although the reasons I think that have been reduced to only a few things over the years. But I have said all about that on my thread, and I don't want to repeat it all here.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 17th August 2019, 09:10 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Right so apart from being wrong about inhabitants of other planets, electricity, biology of humans he was spot on.....
To be fair, there's a bunch of stuff that you could shoehorn into various real-world theories. One example is that he says that the elements of matter aren't the true elements and that all elements are made out of the same fundamental stuff:

Quote:
30. Is matter formed of one element or of several elements?

"Of one primitive element. The bodies which you regard as simple are not really elementary; they are transformations of the primitive matter."

31. Whence come the different properties of matter?

"From the modifications undergone by the elementary molecules, as the result of their union and of the action of certain conditions."
You could say that that's about electrons, protons, and neutrons; or quarks; or even string theory, if you wanted to. Throw in the word "quantum" and you're golden.

Another example is something that could be interpreted to predict the discovery of neutrinos:

Quote:
22. Matter is generally defined as being "that which has extension," "that which can make an impression upon our senses," "that which possesses impenetrability." Are these definitions correct?

"From your point of view they are correct, because you can only define in accordance with what you know. But matter exists in states which are unknown to you. it may be, for instance, so ethereal and subtle as to make no impression upon your senses; and yet it is still matter, although it would not be such for you."
Yet another example is the quantum foam/quantum fields/radiation/etc./delete as applicable:

Quote:
36. Does an absolute void exist in any part of space?

"No there is no void. What appears like a void to you is occupied by matter in a state in which it escapes the action of your senses and of your instruments."
There's plenty of stuff like that if you wanted to go down the route of saying "see? How could they possibly have knowledge of that if it weren't all true?" Add in a dash of "we're not sufficiently advanced to understand the answers, which are undoubtedly 100% correct" and/or "the spirits were speaking on the level of the people who would be hearing the answers, so naturally the answers aren't 100% correct - a man of that era couldn't possibly understand string theory, so it was explained to him in terms he could understand" and you can easily twist it into being evidence of the truth of it all.

That's why I was specifically looking for something that screamed "cultural attitudes of the Western world in the 19th century". It's much harder to explain away colonial attitudes than it is the fluid theory of electricity, at least on the behalf of the spirits.
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Old 17th August 2019, 09:12 AM   #200
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So, Scorpion, given that you've chosen to ignore the scientific inaccuracies of this book, and that you have stated that you feel obligated to reject books that contain scientific inaccuracies, can we assume from this that you are doing the former because you don't want to do the latter?
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