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Tags Allan Kardec , life after death , spiritism , spiritualism

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Old 20th August 2019, 08:01 PM   #321
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Hi Winston Wu! How have you been these past years?
I believe several members and myself have read this nonsense before and have entertained ourselves reading the incoherent lunacy of SCEPCOP.

The Scientific Committee Exposing Pseudo-Skeptical Cynicism of the Paranormal, or "SCEPCOP," is a website created by "Vinstonas Wu" (a.k.a., Winston Wu), an admitted diagnosed schizophrenic,[2] to help champion every crazy idea which lacks any corroborative evidence whatsoever.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/SCEPCOP

For lovers of insanity, here is the SCEPCOP forum which is actually called debunkingskeptics.
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com
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Old 20th August 2019, 10:23 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
You might not like what they have to say ...


http://www.internationalskeptics.com...c21b369bef.jpg
I dunno, that could either mean there is nothing to be saved from, or some horror from beyond time and space will devour us once we die.
Still better than any afterlife I've read about so far
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Old 20th August 2019, 10:38 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Pseudo-skepticism is worse than religious fanaticism!
Define "pseudo-skepticism" please.
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Old 20th August 2019, 10:49 PM   #324
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I think it goes like this:

Person making paranormal claim: "What about this evidence?"
Skeptic: Analyses it and points out what is wrong with it...

Person making paranormal claim: "Well then what about this evidence?"
Skeptic: Analyses it and points out what is wrong with it...

(Repeat 100 times)

Person making paranormal claim: "Well then what about this evidence?"
Skeptic: "Enough - it is only going to be the same nonsense as before"
Person making paranormal claim: "Pseudo-skeptic! You aren't interested in evidence!"
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Old 20th August 2019, 11:03 PM   #325
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I see. There actually are some people I might call "pseudo-skeptics" fwiw. Holocaust deniers (they might prefer Holocaust skeptics) are one kind. Anti-vaxxers would be another kind. These people might like to see themselves as "skeptics" although their beliefs are highly dubious.
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Old 20th August 2019, 11:43 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
I believe several members and myself have read this nonsense before and have entertained ourselves reading the incoherent lunacy of SCEPCOP.

The Scientific Committee Exposing Pseudo-Skeptical Cynicism of the Paranormal, or "SCEPCOP," is a website created by "Vinstonas Wu" (a.k.a., Winston Wu), an admitted diagnosed schizophrenic,[2] to help champion every crazy idea which lacks any corroborative evidence whatsoever.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/SCEPCOP

For lovers of insanity, here is the SCEPCOP forum which is actually called debunkingskeptics.
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com
I did not know that. But it seems to explain the behaviour I remember from him.
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Old 20th August 2019, 11:51 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I think it goes like this:

Person making paranormal claim: "What about this evidence?"
Skeptic: Analyses it and points out what is wrong with it...

Person making paranormal claim: "Well then what about this evidence?"
Skeptic: Analyses it and points out what is wrong with it...

(Repeat 100 times)

Person making paranormal claim: "Well then what about this evidence?"
Skeptic: "Enough - it is only going to be the same nonsense as before"
Person making paranormal claim: "Pseudo-skeptic! You aren't interested in evidence!"

Or in this case:

Person making paranormal claim: [makes claim]
Skeptics: “What evidence do you have for that?”
Person making paranormal claim: “I won’t provide any evidence until you have read this book.”
Skeptic:”OK, I’ve read the book, here are some problems with it.”
Person making paranormal claim: “My English isn’t good enough to continue this discussion.”

Person making paranormal claim: “Pseudo-skeptics don't care to study anything, they don't want to see the data, they don't want to analyze the evidence...”
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Last edited by Mojo; 20th August 2019 at 11:56 PM.
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Old 21st August 2019, 01:46 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Science is not infallible and cannot yet explain everything!
The spirits in the book you directed us towards are supposed to be infallible, yet are wrong about very many very basic facts of science and astronomy. The author of the book himself (again, that you directed people towards) says that if the facts in the book are shown to be untrue, then you must conclude that spirits don't exist.

When confronted with this, you did exactly the same thing as when confronted with the fact that the spirits displayed the colonial attitudes of the 19th century - you ignored it.

You know what scepticism is? It's examining the facts, the evidence, and the logic of claims to see if they support a particular claim. That's what I've done.

You know what scepticism is not? Ignoring when the facts, evidence, and logic of claims don't support the particular claim you would like them to. That's what you've done.
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Old 21st August 2019, 01:50 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
you need to study Marcello Truzzi!
Why? You'll just ignore anything he's said or stood for that you'd prefer not to be true.

Like, for example, "An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof".
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Old 21st August 2019, 01:51 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Pseudo-skeptics don't care to study anything, they don't want to see the data, they don't want to analyze the evidence, they don't care about the witnesses ... All they want is for the opposing theory to go off the map as quickly as possible before others get to know her!
Just to be clear - are you here saying that it's wrong to ignore evidence that contradicts what you believe to be true? Asking for a friend.
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Old 21st August 2019, 01:58 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Hi Winston Wu! How have you been these past years?
I'm not sure this is Winston Wu.

Winston Wu is more coherent
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Old 21st August 2019, 02:45 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
I'd really like to see a definition of pseudo skepticism.
pseudo skeptic – one who holds an a priori belief that it does not exist, therefore, it is just a matter of finding a way to explain it away.
Debunkers cloak denialism in the language of skepticism and critical thinking; start with a conclusion and look for evidence to support what they already believe.
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Old 21st August 2019, 02:51 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
What does he say?


Norm
Not a lot, he's been dead fifteen years. He was one of the founders of CSICOP, coined the phrases "an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof" and "pseudoskepticism", the latter when CSICOP investigators stated being overly rigourous (in his opinion) and left the organisation.
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Old 21st August 2019, 02:54 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Science is not infallible and cannot yet explain everything!
This is, of course, one of the defining statements of the pseudo-skeptic, who usually goes on to say "therefore your skepticism should lead you to reject science and its demands for evidence, and having done so here are the beliefs of mine that you should acccept without question because we already disposed of that evidence thing."

Science doesn't claim to explain everything. It claims to be better at explaining things than all the other fallible ways of acquiring knowledge. Pseudo-skepticism is rooted in the denial of that claim.

Dave
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Old 21st August 2019, 05:19 AM   #335
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To my knowledge, “psuedo-skeptics” have not indulged in inquisitions, terrorist attacks, or any of the other abuses associated with religious fanaticism.
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Old 21st August 2019, 05:20 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I'm not criticizing anyone here, I just want to question pseudo-skepticism! because it really exists!
(Yawn).






Sorry a spirit passed right by me.
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Old 21st August 2019, 06:30 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Pseudo-skeptics don't care to study anything, they don't want to see the data, they don't want to analyze the evidence, they don't care about the witnesses ... All they want is for the opposing theory to go off the map as quickly as possible before others get to know her!
I've read some of what passes for "evidence" of spirits, ghosts and paranormal events and invariably it come down to anecdotal accounts from credulous sources.
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Old 21st August 2019, 07:00 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I've read some of what passes for "evidence" of spirits, ghosts and paranormal events and invariably it come down to anecdotal accounts from credulous sources.
Also, the anecdotal accounts are usually explainable with logic applied. And sometimes you must look deeper for the rational explanation.
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Old 21st August 2019, 07:44 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by jakesteele View Post
pseudo skeptic – one who holds an a priori belief that it does not exist
For existential propositions, a presumption of non-existence is rational. Such a proposition can be falsified with evidence, and is therefore a testable proposition. Since you seem to believe it is irrational to start out this way, please describe a better way and show that it's better.

Quote:
...therefore, it is just a matter of finding a way to explain it away.
If a particular explanation is proffered for some set of observations, is it not rational to assemble other hypotheses that also explain the observations, and then see which is best supported by evidence? Then from among all those considered, is it not rational to prefer the explanation that best satisfies the law of parsimony? If you feel this is inappropriate, can you describe a better way?

Quote:
Debunkers cloak denialism in the language of skepticism and critical thinking...
One person's "denialism" is another person's critical analysis. Very often we see that the proponent's proffered explanation is meant to be accepted simply because some other hypothesis lacks conclusive support, or as a default when all other explanations fail. What those proponents erroneously write off as "denialism" is, in those cases, a correct effort to hold the proffered explanation to the same standards of evidence as is used to reject more prosaic alternatives.

Give some examples from this forum of "denialism [cloaked] in the language of skeptical thinking" and describe what would have been a more appropriate approach.
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:03 AM   #340
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the characteristic feature of false skepticism is that it centres not on an impartial search for the truth, but on the defence of a preconceived ideological position

These are my ideas about the thing itself and not about the person I address, I can respect the person without participating in their opinions.
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:03 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Pseudo-skepticism is worse than religious fanaticism!
Well no. Religious fanaticism has lead to a lot of chaos and death. Posts are so much simpler when you only have to respond to an opinion with another opinion and not required to add proof or back anything up!
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:04 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
the characteristic feature of false skepticism is that it centres not on an impartial search for the truth, but on the defence of a preconceived ideological position
And since you have no idea what goes on in people's heads, how about you try meeting their skepticism with evidence?

Oh, right. You don't have any. That's why you resort to ad hominems.
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:09 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
the characteristic feature of false skepticism is that it centres not on an impartial search for the truth, but on the defence of a preconceived ideological position
Like, for example, the way believers in paranormal phenomena try to re-write the definition of evidence so that it contains favourable exceptions.

Dave
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:10 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And since you have no idea what goes on in people's heads, how about you try meeting their skepticism with evidence?

Oh, right. You don't have any. That's why you resort to ad hominems.
Skepticism cannot be harsh and hateful!
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:12 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
the characteristic feature of false skepticism is that it centres not on an impartial search for the truth, but on the defence of a preconceived ideological position
Like, for example, ignoring or hand-waving away critiques of texts that they suggested other people read? That kind of thing?
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:15 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Skepticism cannot be harsh and hateful!
Are you suggesting that religion is not? Especially in cases of a religious fanatics?
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:20 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Skepticism cannot be harsh and hateful!
Sure it can. Look: homeopathy is a load of crap and there's no evidence to support it.
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:29 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
the characteristic feature of false skepticism is that it centres not on an impartial search for the truth, but on the defence of a preconceived ideological position

These are my ideas about the thing itself and not about the person I address, I can respect the person without participating in their opinions.
Yet when a specific test was offered to you, on something only you experience, you refused if based on " it took a long time to come to believe in spirits"

No one else can test this, no one can force you to act in any way. You say no, game over. You have refused to test your own beliefs.

Without your experiences I cannot believe in spirits. Not like you do. You repeat preconceived notions of what skeptics and your definition of pseudo skeptic does, but it's not a one size fits all body suit.

I may totally disagree with a member on his politics, partially agree on certain social issues and fully agreed on food and art.

Yet with another the formula is very different. It doesn't mean one is a pseudo skeptic and another not, it only means my ideals overlap in different areas with each.
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:45 AM   #349
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Susan Blackmore is an open-minded skeptic
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:48 AM   #350
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would anyone here like to subscribe to a brazilian skepticism forum? I can pass the link!
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:53 AM   #351
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You ask for evidence or empirical evidence of the existence of spirits ... but I would have to talk to you in person ... off the internet!
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:56 AM   #352
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books or websites you don't accept as evidence ... would you have to talk to yourself?
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:58 AM   #353
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I would have to talk to you in person ... books and websites don't have the proof you require!
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:59 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Susan Blackmore is an open-minded skeptic
Originally Posted by Susan Blackmore
It was just over thirty years ago that I had the dramatic out-of-body experience that convinced me of the reality of psychic phenomena and launched me on a crusade to show those closed-minded scientists that consciousness could reach beyond the body and that death was not the end. Just a few years of careful experiments changed all that. I found no psychic phenomena—only wishful thinking, self-deception, experimental error and, occasionally, fraud. I became a sceptic.
Yep. Sounds open minded and skeptical; she sought evidence for her beliefs, found that it didn't point the way she expected, and changed her beliefs as a result.

What was your point in bringing her up?

Dave
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Old 21st August 2019, 09:05 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Yep. Sounds open minded and skeptical; she sought evidence for her beliefs, found that it didn't point the way she expected, and changed her beliefs as a result.

What was your point in bringing her up?

Dave
she said There are some members of the skeptics' groups who clearly believe they know the right answer prior to inquiry.
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Old 21st August 2019, 09:06 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
she said There are some members of the skeptics' groups who clearly believe they know the right answer prior to inquiry.
And are you familiar with the definition of the word "some"?

Dave
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Old 21st August 2019, 09:14 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Skepticism cannot be harsh and hateful!
Clearly you're so wrapped up in your beliefs that you perceive rejection of your beliefs as being hateful.

That isn't the case.

You'd do yourself a good turn by citing evidence that you as an individual find credible for the existence of the spirit world and debating the facts - merely stating that other individuals must first read some book you evidently believe to be confirming your beliefs isn't a discussion, it's a lecture.
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Old 21st August 2019, 09:18 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
You ask for evidence or empirical evidence of the existence of spirits ... but I would have to talk to you in person ... off the internet!
If you believe you have a solid sales pitch, put it up on YouTube.
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Old 21st August 2019, 09:23 AM   #359
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Susan Blackmore is an open-minded skeptic
Allan Kardec has been proved wrong.
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Old 21st August 2019, 09:26 AM   #360
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
You ask for evidence or empirical evidence of the existence of spirits ... but I would have to talk to you in person ... off the internet!
Have you abandoned the idea that the books you linked to provide empirical evidence of the existence of spirits, then?
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