IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Congressional hearings , donald trump , impeachment , Trump administration , Trump controversies , Trump impeachment

Reply
Old 26th January 2021, 04:30 PM   #1281
turingtest
Mistral, mistral wind...
 
turingtest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 4,677
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Once again, 45 Republican senators show they are spineless cowards and care more about their own ambitions and party than their country. Shame on them. This is why I hold the GOP in nothing but utter contempt.

They impeach Clinton for lying about a blow job, but refuse to hold Trump responsible for lying about "mail in ballot fraud", for trying to overturn a legitimate election because he cannot accept losing, for trying to force a governor and state AG to "find" enough votes to overturn that state's election, for lying about a "rigged election" and inciting a crowd to walk "with him" to the Capitol to "fight like hell" and not let the "steal" the election.
No, that is ok with them.
That part right there. There's a lot of fulminating from the right about how this whole show is a political game on the part of Democrats, they don't really care about accountability, etc. It seems pretty obvious to me, though, that the party making this about politics instead of accountability is the GOP- they're so scared of Trump taking his base into a new party of his creation, and costing them primaries in 2022 and the Presidency (again) in 2024, that they're avoiding holding him accountable for a course of conduct that they would absolutely crucify a Democratic President for.

The Republicans don't care about the country being divided- they only care about their party being divided. And if it takes kissing Trump's ass to save theirs, by god, that's what they'll do.
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV;
I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems
Deep Purple- "The Aviator"

Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King
turingtest is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 04:39 PM   #1282
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
 
Ladewig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 28,039
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Marco Rubio tweeted

@marcorubio
Waste of time impeachment isn’t about accountability

It’s about demands from vengeance from the radical left

And a new “show” for the “Political Entertainment Industry”
And once again a prominent Republican uses his heel to grind the face of logic into the grounds.

Also, how many times did President Chucklehead tweet “Law and Order”?
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.
Ladewig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 04:56 PM   #1283
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,973
I'm a tad sorry that I'm biased but I simply cannot take Senator Baby Face seriously.


Right now I think he's simply stumping to get in front of the cameras. Not saying he doesn't plan to run for POTUS. clearly he does.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 26th January 2021 at 04:58 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 05:33 PM   #1284
turingtest
Mistral, mistral wind...
 
turingtest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 4,677
Of the five Republicans who voted to proceed with the impeachment process, I'm really only inclined to give Sasse and Romney credit for voting their consciences instead of strictly for their party's interest (or their own). I only exclude Toomey because I don't know much about him- he may indeed deserve some credit here.

Susan Collins, though, really had no other choice consistent with her previous "I hope Trump has learned his lesson" from the first impeachment, when she voted to acquit, in the face of demonstrable evidence that he damned well didn't learn any lesson except that he could get away with pretty much anything. And, after all, she just won re-election, so she has six years to convince moderate Maine voters that her second vote today was the one for them to remember, the first one doesn't count; and, for the Trump faithful in Maine, just the reverse, that the first vote was the one that deserves their attention. Six years is a long time with a voting public that has an attention span of about five minutes.

As for Murkowski- yes, she said she wanted Trump out, she was considering leaving the GOP over his antics, etc. But how badly can that really hurt her? Alaska now has a ranked-choice voting system (USA Today):

Quote:
A year ago, Sen. Lisa Murkowski, R-Alaska, stated that President Donald Trump was “shameful and wrong” but still voted to acquit in his first impeachment trial. Last week, she bluntly stated that he should go, with barely a week left in office.

True, the attack on the Capitol was far worse than the offenses that led to Trump’s first impeachment, but Alaska’s electoral reforms also give Murkowski less fear of being “primaried” out of office in her 2022 re-election.

The fear of Trump’s base has kept most Republicans in Congress in line. Off the record, many mock Trump or express fears about his actions, but in public, they’ve been remarkably loyal.

The few who have spoken out have sometimes paid for it with their political careers. The fear of a Trump-backed primary opponent helped drive 138 House Republicans to support Trump’s lies about the election.
...
Instead of separate, party-only primary elections, future Alaska primaries will have all candidates on a single ballot. The four candidates who receive the most votes advance to the general election. This makes it much harder for partisan extremists to beat a moderate in the primary. Appealing to moderates and even disaffected Democrats will be a viable strategy.

General election voters will then list those top four candidates in ranked order of preference. All voters are initially counted for their first choice.

If any of the four have more than 50% of the vote, that candidate wins the election. If no candidate has a majority, the last place candidate is eliminated. But votes for the last place candidate are not thrown away; their votes are shifted to support their second ranked choice on voters' ballots.

Vote counts are immediately recalculated, and if any of the three remaining candidates has a majority, the election is done. If not, the third place candidate wins, votes are reassigned and whoever gets more votes in the final count wins.

...

Alaska’s reforms mean that Murkowski has helped her reelection chances in 2022, unlike other Republicans who are still afraid they will be punished for disloyalty to Trump.
How much courage or conscience do you need to take a position that probably won't cost you anything? It's possible she is, indeed, voting her conscience here, but assuming that a politician is doing so is, to say the least, a pretty generous reading. I have no way of knowing how much of Murkowski's vote today was conscience and how much was political calculation, but no politician gets very far without a large share of the latter in play. (Yes, any politician, so spare me the whatabouts)
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV;
I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems
Deep Purple- "The Aviator"

Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King

Last edited by turingtest; 26th January 2021 at 05:41 PM. Reason: emphasis
turingtest is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 06:55 PM   #1285
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 27,735
I'm not too surprised that the Republicans are backing out, but a little surprised it's coming so soon. I thought there was a compromise on their part to try to keep the filibuster in place, but if they are going to show their bad faith this early, I wonder how they expect that to happen.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 07:17 PM   #1286
Pacal
Graduate Poster
 
Pacal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,162
The vote of 45 senator's against the Impeachment of Trump on the grounds it is, "Unconstitutional", convinces me that convicting Trump at the trial no matter what the evidence is will be very hard, next to impossible. So sadly Trump will continue to be a major political force in the USA for the next few years at least.
Pacal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 07:45 PM   #1287
Fast Eddie B
Philosopher
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 6,741
Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
The vote of 45 senator's against the Impeachment of Trump on the grounds it is, "Unconstitutional", convinces me that convicting Trump at the trial no matter what the evidence is will be very hard, next to impossible.
Agreed. We should resign ourselves to the fact that conviction in the Senate is a lost cause. But then proceed to put on a show trial to end all show trials, for the historical record if nothing else. Subpoena the rioters who have already said that they felt they were, in fact, following the President’s orders when they attacked the Capitol. If they plead the fifth, have them sit on the witness stand and just play videos of them stating such. If nothing else make it VERY clear what voting against conviction in spite of the evidence means. Maybe not to the 25% of voters who call themselves Republicans, but cementing in the minds of Democrats and Independents what the Republican Party stands for today.

Then again, I didn’t think there was any way on God’s green earth the Dems could win both GA Senate seats, so maybe there’s just the slimmest of slim chances enough Republicans might vote to convict. But at this juncture I seriously doubt it.
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 07:47 PM   #1288
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,012
The Oregon Republican Party actually had the gall to state that the Capitol riot was a "false flag" operation:

Quote:
The Oregon Republican party has falsely claimed in a resolution that there is “growing evidence” that the 6 January attack on the US Capitol by a pro-Trump mob was “a ‘false flag’ operation”.

The resolution, which was published on 19 January and was endorsed by the executive committee of the state Republican party, suggested that the storming of the capitol by Trump supporters was an orchestrated conspiracy “designed to discredit President Trump, his supporters and all conservative Republicans,” and to create a “sham motivation” to impeach the former president.

To back up these false claims, the resolution cited links to rightwing websites, including the Epoch Times, a pro-Trump outlet that has frequently published rightwing misinformation, as well as the Wikipedia entry for “Reichstag Fire.”

In a Facebook video released on 19 January, the Oregon Republican party chairman, Bill Currier, said that Oregon Republicans were working with Republicans in other states to release similar resolutions. “We are encouraging and working with the others through a patriot network of RNC members, the national level elected officials from each state, to coordinate our activities and to coordinate our messaging,” Currier said as part of the video conversation with other members of the Oregon Republican party.

“We’re partway in the door of socialism and Marxism right now … and we have to fight,” Currier said. “It’s a time for choosing. People can decide what they want to believe and what they want to do, but there are people standing up and there are people sitting down.”
Well, there's the problem. People are choosing what they want to believe instead of believing what the facts tell them.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 08:04 PM   #1289
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,012
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Agreed. We should resign ourselves to the fact that conviction in the Senate is a lost cause. But then proceed to put on a show trial to end all show trials, for the historical record if nothing else. Subpoena the rioters who have already said that they felt they were, in fact, following the President’s orders when they attacked the Capitol. If they plead the fifth, have them sit on the witness stand and just play videos of them stating such. If nothing else make it VERY clear what voting against conviction in spite of the evidence means. Maybe not to the 25% of voters who call themselves Republicans, but cementing in the minds of Democrats and Independents what the Republican Party stands for today.

Then again, I didn’t think there was any way on God’s green earth the Dems could win both GA Senate seats, so maybe there’s just the slimmest of slim chances enough Republicans might vote to convict. But at this juncture I seriously doubt it.
Agreed.

CNN played videos of Graham, Rubio, etc stating how the investigation into Benghazi was all about holding the people responsible for it then played their excuses for not holding Trump responsible for his actions. Their hypocrisy seeped out of my TV and stunk up the room. But then again, it always does.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 08:07 PM   #1290
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 8,782
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I'm not too surprised that the Republicans are backing out, but a little surprised it's coming so soon. I thought there was a compromise on their part to try to keep the filibuster in place, but if they are going to show their bad faith this early, I wonder how they expect that to happen.
There have probably been phone calls made to each of them starting with the words "You know those photographs we have that you would NEVER want to come out...?"
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 08:28 PM   #1291
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 28,278
I wouldn't read to much into the fact that the GOP Is disinterested in holding an impeachment trial. Their party is not going to look good. They are going to be facing a very different trial. Actual evidence of a very awful event that many of them were complicit in is going to be put in front of the American people. Who can blame them for wanting to sweep it under the rug.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 08:57 PM   #1292
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 25,262
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The Oregon Republican Party actually had the gall to state that the Capitol riot was a "false flag" operation:



Well, there's the problem. People are choosing what they want to believe instead of believing what the facts tell them.
I fear for our country.

Seriously. People at that level shouldn't be crazy. What's wrong with us that we are electing the crazy?
__________________
Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 09:10 PM   #1293
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
 
Ladewig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 28,039
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
There have probably been phone calls made to each of them starting with the words "You know those photographs we have that you would NEVER want to come out...?"
I see it more as reminding them of their faith in the Holy Scriptures.

Book of Reagan. chapter 1 verse 1. “Verily, I say to you, The eleventh commandment is thou shalt not speak ill of any fellow Republican.”

I’m not going to speculate what is in the Book of Trump.
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.
Ladewig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 09:41 PM   #1294
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 8,782
Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I’m not going to speculate what is in the Book of Trump.
There is no Book of Trump. He doesn't read. There is just a single command tattooed on Trumpsters' brains: GIVE MONEY TO TRUMP!!
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 10:30 PM   #1295
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 14,670
Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I see it more as reminding them of their faith in the Holy Scriptures.

Book of Reagan. chapter 1 verse 1. “Verily, I say to you, The eleventh first , last and only commandment is thou shalt not speak ill of any fellow Republican.”

I’m not going to speculate what is in the Book of Trump.
FTFY
__________________
So what are you going to do about it, huh?
What would an intellectual do?
What would Plato do?
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 10:44 PM   #1296
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,973
Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
....
Quote:
The few who have spoken out have sometimes paid for it with their political careers.
How much courage or conscience do you need
to take a position that probably won't cost you anything? It's possible she is, indeed, voting her conscience here, but assuming that a politician is doing so is, to say the least, a pretty generous reading. I have no way of knowing how much of Murkowski's vote today was conscience and how much was political calculation, but no politician gets very far without a large share of the latter in play. (Yes, any politician, so spare me the whatabouts)
This is going to separate their belief in their own self-importance over the importance of our democracy.

It's insane this even is an issue.

It appears there are more than a few infiltrators in Congress.

Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 10:46 PM   #1297
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,973
Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
The vote of 45 senator's against the Impeachment of Trump on the grounds it is, "Unconstitutional", convinces me that convicting Trump at the trial no matter what the evidence is will be very hard, next to impossible. So sadly Trump will continue to be a major political force in the USA for the next few years at least.
Because they have a cop-out excuse. That is a little fire that need stomping out.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 10:48 PM   #1298
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,973
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I fear for our country.

Seriously. People at that level shouldn't be crazy. What's wrong with us that we are electing the crazy?
It's a reminder this isn't over. We are ahead, but this isn't over.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 10:58 PM   #1299
ChristianProgressive
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,828
45 of 50 GOP Senators committ fresh Treason, try to dismiss Impeachment

Wtihout even hearing a single minute of evidence.

They are not Americans. They are not loyal. They must be criminally charged and removed by the DoJ.
__________________
"As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37

"And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28
ChristianProgressive is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 11:07 PM   #1300
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 14,670
Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Wtihout even hearing a single minute of evidence.

They are not Americans.
Yes they are
Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
They are not loyal.
They are to themselves and their donors
Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
They must be criminally charged and removed by the DoJ.
no, they should be removed under the 14th Amendment.
And charged by the DoJ if they can be linked to the insurrection.
__________________
So what are you going to do about it, huh?
What would an intellectual do?
What would Plato do?
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 11:30 PM   #1301
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,012
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I fear for our country.

Seriously. People at that level shouldn't be crazy. What's wrong with us that we are electing the crazy?

"WE" aren't electing the crazy. Ask how any of those claiming that the election was stolen because the election was 'rigged', stormed the Capitol, are QAnon believers, belong to the Proud Boys, or any of the militia groups planning such idiocies such as kidnapping and executing a governor are Democrats.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 11:37 PM   #1302
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,012
Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Wtihout even hearing a single minute of evidence.

They are not Americans. They are not loyal. They must be criminally charged and removed by the DoJ.
You really need to cut back on the hyperbole. I understand your frustration. I agree that they're disgusting cowards and are more concerned with their own ambitions than the good of the country but they are Americans, however self-centered, and they have not committed any legal crime by their votes in the Senate today.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 11:42 PM   #1303
Cain
Straussian
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 14,275
Republicans are all about accountability. They're focused on punishing the real traitor: Liz Cheney.
__________________
April 13th, 2018:
Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years.
Cain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 11:53 PM   #1304
DevilsAdvocate
Philosopher
 
DevilsAdvocate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,448
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I wouldn't read to much into the fact that the GOP Is disinterested in holding an impeachment trial. Their party is not going to look good. They are going to be facing a very different trial. Actual evidence of a very awful event that many of them were complicit in is going to be put in front of the American people. Who can blame them for wanting to sweep it under the rug.
It is a political maneuver.

Many of them have condemned Trump and said he provoked the attack and is responsible for his actions. But convicting him of impeachment is going to anger a bunch of their Republican constituents.

This gives them an option to condemn Trump's actions, but gosh darn it now that he is out of office impeachment just isn't technically Constitutional and there is nothing we can do. And those dang Democrats are going against the Constitution just for political vengeance to further division instead of pursuing unity.

They can condemn Trump. But not vote against him. And accuse Democrats of preventing unity. It's a win-win-win.

It is not a question of Constitutionality. If a Democrat did this they would be calling for his head and screaming bloody murder from the rooftops. Even the Congressional Research Service says an overwhelming number of scholars say this is Constitutional. Of course it is. A President doesn't get to avoid the consequence of an impeachable offense and being barred from holding future office simply because it was done near the end of a term when the trial could not be completed before he left office.

It is a political maneuver.
__________________
I don't need to fight to prove I'm right. - Baba O'Riley
DevilsAdvocate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2021, 12:00 AM   #1305
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,012
Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
It is a political maneuver.

Many of them have condemned Trump and said he provoked the attack and is responsible for his actions. But convicting him of impeachment is going to anger a bunch of their Republican constituents.

This gives them an option to condemn Trump's actions, but gosh darn it now that he is out of office impeachment just isn't technically Constitutional and there is nothing we can do. And those dang Democrats are going against the Constitution just for political vengeance to further division instead of pursuing unity.

They can condemn Trump. But not vote against him. And accuse Democrats of preventing unity. It's a win-win-win.

It is not a question of Constitutionality. If a Democrat did this they would be calling for his head and screaming bloody murder from the rooftops. Even the Congressional Research Service says an overwhelming number of scholars say this is Constitutional. Of course it is. A President doesn't get to avoid the consequence of an impeachable offense and being barred from holding future office simply because it was done near the end of a term when the trial could not be completed before he left office.

It is a political maneuver.
Of course it is. Which brings me to the question: since when is it within the purview of the Senate to determine what is Constitutional and what is not?
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2021, 02:04 AM   #1306
carlosy
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 393
Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
And once again a prominent Republican uses his heel to grind the face of logic into the grounds.

Also, how many times did President Chucklehead tweet “Law and Order”?
He was being sarcastic!
carlosy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2021, 02:16 AM   #1307
carlosy
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 393
So, Lindsey Graham went from

- Trump is a crazy ************!
to
- Trump, my dear leader!
to
- I didn't sign up for this!
to
- I totally signed up for this!



One might come to the conclusion that there is some mass Alzheimer's going on in the GOP and their Voters.
carlosy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2021, 02:44 AM   #1308
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
 
Ladewig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 28,039
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
FTFY
Ah. You are quoting the 21st Century translation. I was quoting the 20th-Century translation.
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.
Ladewig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2021, 02:46 AM   #1309
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 14,670
Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Ah. You are quoting the 21st Century translation. I was quoting the 20th-Century translation.
fair enough.
__________________
So what are you going to do about it, huh?
What would an intellectual do?
What would Plato do?
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2021, 03:18 AM   #1310
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
 
Ladewig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 28,039
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I fear for our country.

Seriously. People at that level shouldn't be crazy. What's wrong with us that we are electing the crazy?
Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal (Jan 2013)
“We must stop being the stupid party. I'm serious. It's time for a new Republican party that talks like adults. It's time for us to articulate our plans and visions for America in real terms. We had a number of Republicans damage the brand this year with offensive and bizarre comments. We’ve had enough of that."


He also warned that Republicans were too associated with "big business, big banks, big Wall Street bailouts, big corporate loopholes."
"We must not be the party that simply protects the well-off so they can keep their toys, We have to be the party that shows all Americans how they can thrive."

“We must stop looking backward. … Nostalgia about the good old days is heart-warming, but the battle of ideas must be waged in the future."

Whatever happened to the former US Representative and Rhodes Scholar?

Oh, yeah. He left the Governor’s Mansion in Jan 2016 (replaced by a Democrat). That’s just about when he decided that the private sector really needed him.
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.

Last edited by Ladewig; 27th January 2021 at 03:28 AM.
Ladewig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2021, 03:35 AM   #1311
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 31,250
Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
It is a political maneuver.

Many of them have condemned Trump and said he provoked the attack and is responsible for his actions. But convicting him of impeachment is going to anger a bunch of their Republican constituents.

This gives them an option to condemn Trump's actions, but gosh darn it now that he is out of office impeachment just isn't technically Constitutional and there is nothing we can do. And those dang Democrats are going against the Constitution just for political vengeance to further division instead of pursuing unity.

They can condemn Trump. But not vote against him. And accuse Democrats of preventing unity. It's a win-win-win.

It is not a question of Constitutionality. If a Democrat did this they would be calling for his head and screaming bloody murder from the rooftops. Even the Congressional Research Service says an overwhelming number of scholars say this is Constitutional. Of course it is. A President doesn't get to avoid the consequence of an impeachable offense and being barred from holding future office simply because it was done near the end of a term when the trial could not be completed before he left office.

It is a political maneuver.
I agree that it seems less hopeful than it did when McConnell was blaming Trump.

But we can still cling on to a little hope - this line of "it's unconstitutional" could be an excuse to not participate at all. With 18 Republicans absent and 50 Democrats voting to convict, it would only need 5 Republicans to secure a conviction.

I'm not saying it's likely, but it is feasible. And it'd be a way for the Republicans who want him gone but who want it to look like they're supporting him to accomplish both things simultaneously.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2021, 05:03 AM   #1312
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 32,367
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
But we can still cling on to a little hope - this line of "it's unconstitutional" could be an excuse to not participate at all. With 18 Republicans absent and 50 Democrats voting to convict, it would only need 5 Republicans to secure a conviction.

I'm not saying it's likely, but it is feasible. And it'd be a way for the Republicans who want him gone but who want it to look like they're supporting him to accomplish both things simultaneously.
Yeah, I was thinking that too. Unfortunately that would then give an excuse to anyone who wants to pretend that the impeachment was invalid, but they'd probably dream one up whatever happened.

Dave
__________________
There is truth and there are lies.

- President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2021, 05:11 AM   #1313
ChristianProgressive
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,828
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Yes they are
No, they are NOT.


Quote:
They are to themselves and their donors
But not to the nation. Which is the ONLY loyalty that should matter here.


Quote:
no, they should be removed under the 14th Amendment.
And charged by the DoJ if they can be linked to the insurrection.
The very fact that they are voting to dismiss the charges against the Insurrectionist Trump indelibly links them.
__________________
"As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37

"And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28
ChristianProgressive is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2021, 05:12 AM   #1314
ChristianProgressive
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,828
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You really need to cut back on the hyperbole. I understand your frustration. I agree that they're disgusting cowards and are more concerned with their own ambitions than the good of the country but they are Americans, however self-centered, and they have not committed any legal crime by their votes in the Senate today.
Perjury. False Oath. Disobedience to the Constitution.
__________________
"As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37

"And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28
ChristianProgressive is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2021, 05:16 AM   #1315
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 48,344
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
no, they should be removed under the 14th Amendment.
And charged by the DoJ if they can be linked to the insurrection.
ChristianProgressive isn't talking about the violence at the capitol. He's talking about the Senate impeachment vote. He considers that as treason.

Do you think that qualifies for removal under the 14th amendment?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2021, 05:55 AM   #1316
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,009
Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Wtihout even hearing a single minute of evidence.

They are not Americans. They are not loyal. They must be criminally charged and removed by the DoJ.


Qanon for liberals.

Get a grip my friend.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2021, 06:09 AM   #1317
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 48,344
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Of course it is. Which brings me to the question: since when is it within the purview of the Senate to determine what is Constitutional and what is not?
Every branch of government is supposed to make that determination. That's the whole point of the oath of office. The Supreme Court is held to be the ultimate arbiter in case of dispute, but each branch is still supposed to evaluate things on their own. Many issues never even make it to the courts, so for Congress or the executive to ignore the question of constitutionality would be a grave disservice. For example, Congress is not supposed to pass laws that violate the Constitution. It doesn't have to wait for the Supreme Court in order to turn down bills that would do so, and harm can occur if they pass unconstitutional laws even if those laws are later overturned.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2021, 07:14 AM   #1318
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
 
Ladewig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 28,039
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
And it'd be a way for the Republicans who want him gone but who want it to look like they're supporting him to accomplish both things simultaneously.
I’m having a hard time accepting such cowardly enablers as really wanting him gone.

(And no I don’t think this is a True Scotsman).
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.
Ladewig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2021, 07:58 AM   #1319
ChristianProgressive
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,828
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Qanon for liberals.

Get a grip my friend.
Hardly "Qanon" to call a Traitor a Traitor.

They have taken binding oaths to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution against ALL enemies, Foreign and Domestic".

They are deliberately refusing to fulfill their oath sworn duty.

To do so in the midst of an active and on-going insurrection is Treason.
__________________
"As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37

"And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28
ChristianProgressive is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2021, 08:11 AM   #1320
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 31,250
Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I’m having a hard time accepting such cowardly enablers as really wanting him gone.
I'm sure they can see the damage he's done to the Republicans and, therefore by extension, themselves.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:53 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.